Update On Using NBME for OMS Residency Applicants

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

marshall

SDN Donor
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Messages
218
Reaction score
0
The AAOMS had their annual meeting last week and one of the discussed items was using the NBME for residency admissions since the NBDE is becoming pass/fail. This is what I've learned from an AAOMS staff member:

-a pilot study with 1st year residents is ongoing to test out how the well the NBME is suited for the purpose of evaluating applicants

-from this pilot and other inputs, "they" (AAOMS?) are going to determine what changes need to be made before it is available for applicants

-goal date set for 2012 for first administration of this exam

I asked if I applied in 2012 or later if I would be required to take this exam even though I already took part I and I was told point blank, "If you want to be a resident, you will definitely have to take this exam."

Members don't see this ad.
 
Thanks for the post. Sounds as though it is being highly considered and the most probable way it will turn out from the discussion so far. The big question is who will be affected...

Classes of 2012 - Doesn't seem likely since, atleast what I got out of what you wrote, the test won't evening be administered until 2012 (Jan I assume?), which is after these folks have already applied

Classes of 2013 - Most if not all applicants will have a score on their NBDE Part I. The NBME wouldn't even be available until just a few months before they apply. Seems like a bit of rush to have applicants take the exam between January and when PASS opens up especially since they would already have a score for Part I ?????

Classes of 2014 and beyond - P/NP NBDE Part I score, will definetely be required to take such exam if this is what is chosen.

So I guess the class in question is 2013...Anyone have any more info on both using the exam and who will be affected????

Thanks again for your post Marshall:thumbup:
 
I asked if I applied in 2012 or later if I would be required to take this exam even though I already took part I and I was told point blank, "If you want to be a resident, you will definitely have to take this exam."

So for those who have "below threshold" / non-competitive part I scores, this means that scoring well on the NBME would effectively null their part I score.

will this mean a larger than average in flux of applicants in the coming years?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
So for those who have "below threshold" / non-competitive part I scores, this means that scoring well on the NBME would effectively null their part I score.

will this mean a larger than average in flux of applicants in the coming years?

Could be a second opportunity, but you also have to consider that Residencies are more familiar with NBDE Part I and a low score would still probably be a red flag. However, I think if you had atleast a descent score on Part I and rocked the NBME you'd be fine...

As far as a flux of applicants, it could go either way as scoring well on this exam will be no small task. If you look at the exam contents it's the same as USMLE Step I. Basically you'll have to know everything that is covered in the first 2 years of Med school, and know it well enough to be able to outscore the majority of the other study freaks who want to go into OMFS. I think this will be a major deterent for many...Just taking the GRE and going into ortho doesn't sound so bad huh? :)
 
Last edited:
As far as a flux of applicants, it could go either way as scoring well on this exam will be no small task. If you look at the exam contents it's the same as USMLE Step I. Basically you'll have to know everything that is covered in the first 2 years of Med school, and know it well enough to be able to outscore the majority of the other study freaks who want to go into OMFS. I think this will be a major deterent for many...Just taking the GRE and going into ortho doesn't sound so bad huh? :)

lol yeah, ortho is sounding more and more desirable (yeah right).

You know, this may utlimately reflect academic differences in specific dental school cirriculums (i.e. med school based cirriculums vs not). schools that combine the dental students with the med students for the first 2 years (e.g. UConn, Columbia, etc) might have a slight advantage, though this is entirely subjective.

any thoughts?
 
lol yeah, ortho is sounding more and more desirable (yeah right).

You know, this may utlimately reflect academic differences in specific dental school cirriculums (i.e. med school based cirriculums vs not). schools that combine the dental students with the med students for the first 2 years (e.g. UConn, Columbia, etc) might have a slight advantage, though this is entirely subjective.

any thoughts?

Agreed. This seems to be inevitable.

Hopefully it will raise the standard of didactics at dental schools around the country.
Although it could reflect negatively on dentistry as compared to medicine, we can only hope people will step up their commitment.
 
So those members in the class of 2013 could wait on taking their part I until it does go p/f in January?
 
So those members in the class of 2013 could wait on taking their part I until it does go p/f in January?

That is correct, but for purposes of applying to OMFS if I where in that situation I would much rather take NBDE Part I for a score than P/NP and be the first group to take the NBME. Dental students have been taking the NBDE Part I for over 30 years now and we know the method of how to do well on it. I would not want to be the first group to have to take a new exam that is significantly more difficult than NBDE Part I.

I honestly can't figure out how they would require the class of 2013 to take this new test that won't even be offered until Jan 2012 (?) and apply by the pass deadlines just a few months later when they already have a Class rank and Graded Board Score.

Seems unnecessary to throw that on top of everything else. Most people at my school study 3-6 months to score in the 90's on NBDE Part I. To score that well on the NBME I can only imagine it would take around 6 months-1 year of studying as you'll have to teach yourself the first 2 years of medical school on your own. Dental school obviousely gives you a good background, but this is a different animal...
 
Last edited:
A potential problem is that using first year residents for test pigs for the real test is that they won't study for it like someone who is not in a program.

I could care less about a pilot test for dental school students, especially when I have my own worries in residency.

Just being obvious.
 
That is correct, but for purposes of applying to OMFS if I where in that situation I would much rather take NBDE Part I for a score than P/NP and be the first group to take the NBME.... I would not want to be the first group to have to take a new exam that is significantly more difficult than NBDE Part I.

To score that well on the NBME I can only imagine it would take around 6 months-1 year of studying as you'll have to teach yourself the first 2 years of medical school on your own. Dental school obviousely gives you a good background, but this is a different animal...

Perhaps it's a little idealistic, but being that c/o 2014 would be the first batch to take the NBME post boards going P/F, it seems like it would level the playing field that year for OMFS app's because there is no "magic number" analogous to a +90 NBDE yet. And though i agree that medical school is a whole other beast when compared to dental school, i can't help but feel grateful that i'm at a school where the two are integrated for the first 2 years as i think it will serve to better prepare me for this exam ;).
 
forgive me for necromancing, but i think good 'ol gary ruska has some good insights into the situtation (from a prior speculative thread about the same topic):

"Gary "Nothing Beats My Ego" Ruska here,

This is a mixed blessing. While it does offer an fast, cheap alternative to creating a new OMFS-specific residency test, it does also create a particular set of problems for 6-year programs, as correctly pointed out above.

However, not all is lost. There are a number of reasons not to get too worried just yet:

1. The NBME, while a proxy for the USMLE Step 1, is an imperfect substitute. There has been no discussion about how the test will be administered (i.e. will students take it at Prometric? Their own school with a faculty proctor like the shelf exams? etc.). It would be premature of a medical school admissions committee to base suitability on admission to medical school on the results of this test. Especially since the majority of OMFS residents in 6 year programs go into the SECOND YEAR of medical school...The astute OMFS residency director, if faced with a complaint regarding NBME performance from OMFS prospectives, will simply ask how medical students at the end of the first year of MS do on the same test.

2. #1 does pose a problem for programs that go right into the third year of medical school - however, one just needs to pass the NBME, not knock it out of the park. Any dental student who is smart enough and hardworking enough to get into OMFS will be able to buckle down for a month and pass this thing. The study strategy will be the same as for Step 1 and the materials are the same. Easy to prepare for.

3. Dental students pass Step 1 every year - just ask those who have to take it prior to STARTING intern year (UConn, etc.). These guys can do it during the very busy fourth year of dental school, where they have been out of medical basic science for 2 years and have only a few weeks/month to study. Second year dental students will do just fine.

4. Has anyone said when this test needs to be taken? One could make the argument that, since one applies to OMFS after third year, the test only need be taken and the score available by PASS application time. No biggie here - just study and pass NBDE 1 and then spend the bulk of time third year studying for NBME.

5. No one really knows how dental student performance on NBME will predict USMLE Step 1 performance. Yet. An OMFS program somewhere will look into this after the system has been in place for a few years and then, with data in hand, a discussion and guidelines can be set. This is what happened with the NBDE Part 1 and where the "magic 90" came from..."
 
forgive me for necromancing, but i think good 'ol gary ruska has some good insights into the situtation (from a prior speculative thread about the same topic):

"Gary "Nothing Beats My Ego" Ruska here,

This is a mixed blessing. While it does offer an fast, cheap alternative to creating a new OMFS-specific residency test, it does also create a particular set of problems for 6-year programs, as correctly pointed out above.

However, not all is lost. There are a number of reasons not to get too worried just yet:

1. The NBME, while a proxy for the USMLE Step 1, is an imperfect substitute. There has been no discussion about how the test will be administered (i.e. will students take it at Prometric? Their own school with a faculty proctor like the shelf exams? etc.). It would be premature of a medical school admissions committee to base suitability on admission to medical school on the results of this test. Especially since the majority of OMFS residents in 6 year programs go into the SECOND YEAR of medical school...The astute OMFS residency director, if faced with a complaint regarding NBME performance from OMFS prospectives, will simply ask how medical students at the end of the first year of MS do on the same test.

2. #1 does pose a problem for programs that go right into the third year of medical school - however, one just needs to pass the NBME, not knock it out of the park. Any dental student who is smart enough and hardworking enough to get into OMFS will be able to buckle down for a month and pass this thing. The study strategy will be the same as for Step 1 and the materials are the same. Easy to prepare for.

3. Dental students pass Step 1 every year - just ask those who have to take it prior to STARTING intern year (UConn, etc.). These guys can do it during the very busy fourth year of dental school, where they have been out of medical basic science for 2 years and have only a few weeks/month to study. Second year dental students will do just fine.

4. Has anyone said when this test needs to be taken? One could make the argument that, since one applies to OMFS after third year, the test only need be taken and the score available by PASS application time. No biggie here - just study and pass NBDE 1 and then spend the bulk of time third year studying for NBME.

5. No one really knows how dental student performance on NBME will predict USMLE Step 1 performance. Yet. An OMFS program somewhere will look into this after the system has been in place for a few years and then, with data in hand, a discussion and guidelines can be set. This is what happened with the NBDE Part 1 and where the "magic 90" came from..."

Very good insight as always. I have no doubt that dental students, even 2nd years, can pass the NBME and USMLE Step I given enough time to study the material on their own. My biggest concern, however, is that just as increased competition in a free market brings down cost, building competition around this exam will very quickly yield extremely high scores needed for admissions. This isn't necessarily a bad thing in theory, however, the majority of dental schools with the exception of a few that throw their students in medical school for the first 2 years do not cover all the material or nearly as in depth of what is covered in Medical school.

Students are already spending 3 months, 6 months, or even up to a year studying for the NBDE Part I in order to be competitive for admissions, an exam who's material is supposed to be covered in it's entirety in the first 2 years of dental school. obviousely if students are spending that much time studying for an exam that only covers material that is covered in dental school, how much time will students spend studying for an exam whose difficulty and content is far beyond that of the NBDE Part I? It's a simple concept, create competition around the exam and very quickly extremely high scores will be yielded and the amount of time/effort spent preparing for the exam will increase dramatically and in this case excessively...

In our current system, students after their 2nd year of residency (for most) are required to pass the USMLE Step I. What is now being proposed is that students, after only 2-3 years of dental school, will be required to have the knowledge to not only pass the NBME/USMLE Step I, but to outscore the competition to get into residency, be bored out of your mind in the 2nd year of Medical school, and then re-study the same material enough to just pass USMLE Step I.

As far as selection early on before a "magic number" is set, it's not rocket science how residencies selection will occur. The highest score always wins and simply ranking applicants based on academic performance and then considering all of the other criteria for admissions such as CV's, interview, LOR's, etc. will determine who gets the spot.

One last thought...the statement that "no one really nows how dental student performance on NBME will predict USMLE step I performance", haven't there already been tons of studies correlating NBME scores to USMLE Step I performance for medical students? Isn't that the NBME's fame to claim? Why would it be any different for dental students?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Does anyone know if there will be further discussion on this topic at the AAMOS meeting next week?
 
I am also curious to know about this as I will be applying to OMS next year and want to know if I need to start studying for another exam :(
 
I'm just a student, but take this for what it is worth. I recently talked at length about this topic with an OMS residency director from a top 10 program post-AAOMS conference. He said that the NBME as an entrance exam is a done deal. I followed up with how much weight they would give to the exam results, and he said that he didn't know. My assumption is that if you are competitive, it would put you either higher or lower on a program's radar depending on your result.
 
Faculty decided to go forward with the NBME. Likely starting with next year's applicants.
 
Faculty decided to go forward with the NBME. Likely starting with next year's applicants.

what if we already have a board score.........no mention of that contigency?......:confused:
 
Question:
Is NBME a scored test? or pass/fail?
 
Which section of the nbme....comprehensive basic science section? And would it be good to study USMLE study aids to prepare?
 
Which section of the nbme....comprehensive basic science section? And would it be good to study USMLE study aids to prepare?

comprehensive basic science section.

same study materials as for the usmle (USMLE World, First aid, etc).
 
Faculty decided to go forward with the NBME. Likely starting with next year's applicants.

That part is a little hard to believe. There are alot of things that need to happen before the exam would even be available, i.e. formally get the word out, contract with the NBME people, contract with testing centers like prometric, work with PASS to have it part of the application, etc., etc.
Last year at AAOMS was the first discussion of using the NBME. If at this year's conference the faculty just barely decided to go forward with the NBME. I don't think there would be enough time have the exam offered in a timely manner before PASS opens up for next year's applicants in May.
If I had a board score and was applying next year, I would probably hold off until there is something more solid.
 
it makes sense to start requiring NBME starting next year since with NBDE I scores, the programs can compare them. It sucks for the applicants with board scores who alreasy worked their tail off for NBDE I



still, everything is up in the air:confused:
 
That part is a little hard to believe. There are alot of things that need to happen before the exam would even be available, i.e. formally get the word out, contract with the NBME people, contract with testing centers like prometric, work with PASS to have it part of the application, etc., etc.
Last year at AAOMS was the first discussion of using the NBME. If at this year's conference the faculty just barely decided to go forward with the NBME. I don't think there would be enough time have the exam offered in a timely manner before PASS opens up for next year's applicants in May.
If I had a board score and was applying next year, I would probably hold off until there is something more solid.

I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get it together fast enough either.
 
Per a conversation last night, my PD also says it'll be starting next year.
 


From my undrestanding of the website, the NBME CBSSA (Comprehensive Basic Science Self-Assessment) as of right now is nothing but a Self-assesment tool. There are several versions of the exam that you can purchase for $50 and you have access to it online for a certain amount of time. I don't think it is even offered in the testing center or that there is an exam written that isn't released. They're all on the website for quick purchase and self-assessment.

Can anyone else confirm or deny what this???

If this is the case, 1st the AAOMS would need to contract with NBME, have them write new exam(s), contract with testing centers (i.e. prometric), etc.
If truely all the AAOMS has done this far is decided on using the exam, there is still quite a ways to go before the exam could even be offered. Y'all know how long stuff like this can take, huge beuracratic process.
 
i think what drkmgk is saying is that, if one felt inclined to do so, they could start taking practice exams to get an idea of where they stand / where they need to improve / etc.
 
i think what drkmgk is saying is that, if one felt inclined to do so, they could start taking practice exams to get an idea of where they stand / where they need to improve / etc.

Flapa do you think your class is gonna take NBME too? Have you heard anyhting in your school about this thing?
 
Got this from our program director today, looks like it's official.

AAOMS TO UTLIZE THE NBME CBSE FOR 2012
In order to provide OMS applicants with an opportunity to measure their understanding of the basic sciences and provide an enhanced mechanism for OMS programs to evaluate applicants for 2012-2013 positions, AAOMS will offer the NBME CBSE in August/September 2012. Going forward, the examination will be administered annually, one day a year, through Prometric test centers. The approximate examination fee will be $150 and registration will open in February 2012. Dental students may apply following their second year and may complete the exam, annually, as desired. Only the highest score will be considered. The complete application process will be handled through the AAOMS. For more information please contact Mary Allaire-Schnitzer, Director, Advanced Education and Professional Affairs or at 800/822-6637 ext. 4315.
Top
 
the timing is slightly unclear to me.

would applicants need to take this exam in Aug/Sept of their 3rd year or their 4th year (just in time for PASS)?

kinda weird it's only going to be offered once annually.
 
I'm a 3rd year. I already took my boards for a score. I had planned to submit my application when PASS opens up in the spring.
Is the exam intended for the current 2nd years and beyond, or are they expecting those of us in my situation as well to take the exam right when PASS is closing or already closed (if offered in september), wait for scores and submit them to programs??? Aren't programs already in the interviewing phase by then???
 
Only offering the test once a year sounds like it will be tough to schedule.

I'm wondering if this test will be also offered to students who have taken Part 1 for score but weren't able to re-take to improve their score.
 
A friend of mine who is a 2nd yr at a different school forwarded this message which I guess was sent to their program...

Thank you for your interest gaining information relative to applying for oral and maxillofacial surgery.

The AAOMS will offer the NBME CBSE to interested dental students in the Fall 2012. The exam registration will be available in February 2012 with further details forthcoming and to be advertised in two different medias of the ASDA. An interested dental student can take the exam at the completion of their second year (or early of third year based on time of examination being offered) of dental school and essentially take it three times, once at the end of your second, third and fourth and only the highest score will be considered by the OMS program when applying to the programs. The idea is to provide the best opportunity for the dental student when he/she feels most prepared to participate and take the examination. So if a student was to complete dental school in 2014 you could take the exam in 2013 and/or 2012.

Any dental student with a numerical score on the NBDE will not be required to take the NBME CBSE. The score reports will be available 72 hours following the completion of the exam. All OMS programs will require the completion of the NBME CBSE, for any dental student applying who does not have a numerical score on the NBDE.

The NBME CBSE is designed to reflect the format and content covered in Step 1 of the USMLE. The exam will assess the important concepts of the sciences basic to the practice of medicine, with special emphasis on principles and mechanisms underlying health, disease, and modes of therapy.

I hope the above helps clarify your questions. If you have any additional questions please contact me at 800/822-6637 ext. 4315 or via email.

Thank you.

Mary
 
those who attend a d-school that has first two years medical school shared curriculum are at a significant advantage over the other schools... the rest of us are going to have to learn all that information in 3-4 months?

and just to confirm I'm understanding this correctly (although I know everything is tentative currently), you can write it multiple times with absolutely no penalty for low scores, only the highest score counts (or is this idealizing the situation, and PD's will see your scores and look down on a low value). I ask because I might try it this summer after second year, but I am also doing research... so I won't have too much time to study.

lol yeah, ortho is sounding more and more desirable (yeah right).

You know, this may utlimately reflect academic differences in specific dental school cirriculums (i.e. med school based cirriculums vs not). schools that combine the dental students with the med students for the first 2 years (e.g. UConn, Columbia, etc) might have a slight advantage, though this is entirely subjective.

any thoughts?
 
as a follow up:
one will still have to take the NBDE - so what is the time frame to be followed? Take NBDE in second and then NBME in third? So when they say a student can take the NBME in second, they isn't really a possibility because you need to take NBDE?
 
those who attend a d-school that has first two years medical school shared curriculum are at a significant advantage over the other schools... the rest of us are going to have to learn all that information in 3-4 months?

and just to confirm I'm understanding this correctly (although I know everything is tentative currently), you can write it multiple times with absolutely no penalty for low scores, only the highest score counts (or is this idealizing the situation, and PD's will see your scores and look down on a low value). I ask because I might try it this summer after second year, but I am also doing research... so I won't have too much time to study.

as a follow up:
one will still have to take the NBDE - so what is the time frame to be followed? Take NBDE in second and then NBME in third? So when they say a student can take the NBME in second, they isn't really a possibility because you need to take NBDE?

If I am still thinking about OS 2 years from now... my plan is to take NBDE in January of 2013, and.... have about 8 months worth of self-study till NBME (since you can only take it in August it seems).... This is going to be between sophomore and junior year. If I don't score too well, probably retake it the following year before senior year starts.
 
self-study for eight months while still balancing (and excelling) in dental school? and when are we supposed to have time for externships if summer's are spent studying for these tests (I know you could squeeze in a week or two, but a month total out of 3-4 month summer isn't feasible)....why did they have to make the NBDE pass fail....
 
self-study for eight months while still balancing (and excelling) in dental school? and when are we supposed to have time for externships if summer's are spent studying for these tests (I know you could squeeze in a week or two, but a month total out of 3-4 month summer isn't feasible)....why did they have to make the NBDE pass fail....

there are plenty of threads that explain why the NBDE is P/F in less than 30 days.

it's not unreasonable to make all of what you have listed occur successfully. Crack open USMLE firstaid and Robbin's path and you'll be ok.

helps if you go to a dental school who's biomed is taken via the medical school :smuggrin::smuggrin:
 
Hi all,

Thank you in advance for the information and excuse me if I'm not as informed as some of you. I graduated dschool in 2010 and considering going back to os. Based on this thread, seems like the CBME is the USMLE part I?? And it is only offered once a year in July/August by prometric? Someone mentioned USMLE part I first aid and Robbins path as good study aids. Any other ones out there? And in terms of practice exams are there any from Kaplan etc? Thanks again for your input
 
Hi all,

Thank you in advance for the information and excuse me if I'm not as informed as some of you. I graduated dschool in 2010 and considering going back to os. Based on this thread, seems like the CBME is the USMLE part I?? And it is only offered once a year in July/August by prometric? Someone mentioned USMLE part I first aid and Robbins path as good study aids. Any other ones out there? And in terms of practice exams are there any from Kaplan etc? Thanks again for your input

CBSE is offered twice a year.
CBSE is a precursor for the USMLE - many med schools make their students take this test to ensure that they are prepared for the USMLE
Any USMLE study aid will be geared towards the content on the CBSE (FirstAid, USMLE world, Pathoma, etc)
 
anyone who registered for the sept exam get an email to register testing location yet?
 
Top