Cost-benefit analysis: Dentistry from here on out is Bust

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MR1990

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Yeah, I said it. After long periods of browsing Dental Town, talking with newly minted and seasoned dentists, and running numbers and financial scenarios based on current tuition and small business loan rates, I've concluded that dentistry, as a profession, is a losing scenario save for a few exceptions. Here's why I feel this way:

1) Dentistry was a hot ticket up until 2009, just a few years post-2008 crash. Combines the loss of easy access to credit for patients / customers and the number of new grads being pumped out - hello oversaturation. Yes, the bad economy is to blame but there are long-term events that have occurred which lead to my next points. Old timers have curtailed retirement and a few recent grads I know have taken crap positions at corporate dental clinics (Aspen).

2) Dental school tuition has become obscene. If you are an OOS student or go to one of the privates (examples: Penn, NYU, BU, USC, UoP, etc.) and plan to borrow fully to fund your education then take the time to really examine what you're signing up for in light of a strong downward pressure on dentist incomes that have occurred and will probably get worse in the next decade. Borrowing $350K plus at an aggregate interest rate of over 7% (Stafford Grad at 6.8% maxes out at $224K and Grad PLUS picks up most of the rest at 7.9%) is ridiculous. Have fun paying $3K plus per month for the next 10 years.

3) The threat of mid-levels is real and it's game changing but dentistry won't be able to cope as well as medicine. Look at examples in medicine for reference (examples: CRNAs, NPs in primary care / psych, etc). Yeah, the landscape in medicine has changed because of mid-levels but, by and large, physicians still can get plenty of work even in a bad economy. Within this decade, I foresee huge expansion of the new dental therapist programs and their profession will petition for independent practice, just as NPs and CRNAs have done successfully. The private-equity corporate dental chains will take advantage of this mercilessly. Their reasoning will be: 'why hire a new dentist when you can hire three therapists to do all the bread and butter work and make a killing?'

I only really see a few exceptions to current pre-dents going all-in on dentistry who have passion for it and can't see themselves doing anything else:

1) You can overcome the tuition issue. Maybe you have a big inheritance coming your way, you get a public pay back scholarship (military, NHSC, etc), or you go to a very cheap-tuition State school (Texas).

2) You will inherit a relative's dental practice at some super low price (or at no-cost, even).

I don't mean to be "sky is falling" and Debbie Downer but I feel that dentistry, as a profession, is going bust.

I invite discussion about this - please convince me how and why I'm wrong.
 
PaulS said:
did you get rejected?
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NnBHS.gif
 
PaulS said:
did you get rejected?
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I don't know whether he got rejected, but I want to know: Did you get rejected?

Thank for your post, OP. I have made posts in the past stating exactly that corporate chains will be the big winners of the mid-level game. I was brushed off by a lot of predents without them even giving any statements as to why I was wrong.

The future is so easy to predict it is not even funny. Dental therapists will say that they are interested in the rural areas and that there is a need for dental care in rural areas. The legislation will get passed. The therapists will not go to the rural areas (this is exactly what happened with NPs, FNPs, PAs, etc). They will flock to the chains, and the chains will reduce employment of dentists. Chain dentists will handle only complicated cases. (This is what happened at one of my local hospitals. They got rid of all the Anesthesiologists overnight, and replaced them with CRNAs and the few Anesthesiologists left, only 'supervise' and handle difficult cases, and take call, and make very little.)

You forgot to add that the for-profit-ed schools that churn out the dental therapists will also be winners. I am actually interested in this, perhaps starting my own for-profit-school.

You also forgot to add women dentists. Most women dentists want to work a job and have a family life and would rather not spend loads of time to build a practice. Dental chains will exploit this and women will accept the slightly lower salary. Sucks for men.

I think you are right, about general strategy: Keep debt low and go to cheapest school. Sucks for some of us whose state schools are very expensive.

Perhaps the future really is just OMFS or bust lol.
 
you can always move to canada lol
 
jpark1800 said:
I don't know whether he got rejected, but I want to know: Did you get rejected?

Thank for your post, OP. I have made posts in the past stating exactly that corporate chains will be the big winners of the mid-level game. I was brushed off by a lot of predents without them even giving any statements as to why I was wrong.

The future is so easy to predict it is not even funny. Dental therapists will say that they are interested in the rural areas and that there is a need for dental care in rural areas. The legislation will get passed. The therapists will not go to the rural areas (this is exactly what happened with NPs, FNPs, PAs, etc). They will flock to the chains, and the chains will reduce employment of dentists. Chain dentists will handle only complicated cases. (This is what happened at one of my local hospitals. They got rid of all the Anesthesiologists overnight, and replaced them with CRNAs and the few Anesthesiologists left, only 'supervise' and handle difficult cases, and take call, and make very little.)

You forgot to add that the for-profit-ed schools that churn out the dental therapists will also be winners. I am actually interested in this, perhaps starting my own for-profit-school.

You also forgot to add women dentists. Most women dentists want to work a job and have a family life and would rather not spend loads of time to build a practice. Dental chains will exploit this and women will accept the slightly lower salary. Sucks for men.

I think you are right, about general strategy: Keep debt low and go to cheapest school. Sucks for some of us whose state schools are very expensive.

Perhaps the future really is just OMFS or bust lol.
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Doesn't OMFS rely mostly on pulling third molars? Wouldn't the struggling GD's just start pulling their own third molars? I guess you would be OK if you were working in a hospital, but that's just the 6-year OMFS, right? Maybe Ortho?

This midlevel thing sucks. I didn't find out until I was already in this doctoral program that they would start allowing people with two-year community college degrees to perform essentially every type of bread-and-butter dentistry. I mean, can you imagine? They will actually be doing fillings, extractions, crowns, etc.

Apparently, along with the states that already have dental therapists, there are some 15 states in the process of establishing mid-level legislation - one of which isn't even going to have any resistance from organized dentistry because they decided to stop fighting it. Why Washington, why?

I mean, I was OK with solo hygienists, the glut of new schools, and the recent accreditation of foreign dental schools, but this scares me.
 
The ADA is stronger than other professional organizations, be thankful for that.
 
sacapuntas said:
The ADA is stronger than other professional organizations, be thankful for that.
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Agreed. Just look at the transcript of the interview with the U of F prof on the Dollars and Dentist on PBS. He was a total boss.
 
Its ridiculous how many people gonna have debts of over 4ooK after graduation!! How can they afford paying their bills on top of student loans?
 
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Tbh I've always seen ADA as a "we don't take crap from anyone" kind of org. I wouldn't be surprised to see ADA emerge as the victor if there were ever a hypothetical boxing match between the ADA, AMA, Nursing Association, etc.
 
i hope the ADA smites the dental therapist profession.

if anything create more incentive programs so that dentists go to these underserved areas, i.e. more loan repayment programs.

if the ADA has that much pull, it should be an attainable goal imo
 
dentistry is a business. Adapt or die lol. But in all seriousness, you only get out what you put into it. Being a dentist does not entitle you to riches and fame, it only provides you with the necessary set of skills and training and gives you legal permission to use them. The medical profession and dental profession have very different dynamics and very different models for care and business. Unlike medicine, dental insurance is more like dental assistance and that's how it will probably remain. The trend that I have noticed is that most patients had enough disposable income to flip the entire bill, or their deductible, in the past but now cannot. So, the dentists i know have established payment plans since everyone has a credit card and makes payments on everything else. As long as its a low monthly payment, they can get away with higher costs. The only thing that concerns me is that dentist will turn into carpet cleaners and start marketing low price in the weekly newspaper. Then the end will be near.
 
preDENT1210 said:
i hope the ADA smites the dental therapist profession.

if anything create more incentive programs so that dentists go to these underserved areas, i.e. more loan repayment programs.

if the ADA has that much pull, it should be an attainable goal imo
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I agree with incentive programs for a short term bandage, not the solution. The dental therapist would be a great idea IF they were not allowed to perform surgical procedures. A dentist does a lot more than just fix teeth, he/she is also trained to diagnose other systemic diseases which I believe a DA is not. However, i can see this working out if they work under the direct supervision of a dentist from a strict business POV. The solution isn't training more lesser trained individuals to repair, but to promote prevention. I realize healthy living and prevention are unattainable goals which ensures our job security.
 
Well, this sucks. May as well curl up in a ball and die.

Whether any of this prophecy comes to fruition or not, just don't suck at what you do and you'll be fine....as is is true for most professions. Dentistry isn't going anywhere.
 
little Buddy said:
I agree with incentive programs for a short term bandage, not the solution. The dental therapist would be a great idea IF they were not allowed to perform surgical procedures. A dentist does a lot more than just fix teeth, he/she is also trained to diagnose other systemic diseases which I believe a DA is not. However, i can see this working out if they work under the direct supervision of a dentist from a strict business POV. The solution isn't training more lesser trained individuals to repair, but to promote prevention. I realize healthy living and prevention are unattainable goals which ensures our job security.
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That would be great, but the prevailing model for dental therapists includes indirect supervision, rather than general supervision. So, there need not be a dentist in the same building - or area code in theory- for the midlevel to do basic operative. This is also the case for the New Zealand model that mid-level supporters tend to bring up.

This set up allows a single dentist to loosely oversee many dental therapists, either spread over a large area or at a single site. The above poster makes a good point, the chains would probably drop their dentist employees in a heart beat in favor of cheaper, salaried replacements.
 
jeffity said:
Well, this sucks. May as well curl up in a ball and die.

Whether any of this prophecy comes to fruition or not, just don't suck at what you do and you'll be fine....as is is true for most professions. Dentistry isn't going anywhere.
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I'd say it's more like don't take out too much debt and you'll be fine. Especially because every experienced dentist I've talked to says that patients never seem to be able to tell the difference between good dentistry and poor dentistry. I guess it's more about how well you can chat them up.

Alright, sorry everyone. I'm done venting now - and this is sort of silly I guess.

"Oh god ... My career might never be able to net me six figures" - First world problems, huh?
 
DMDWANNABEE said:
Doesn't OMFS rely mostly on pulling third molars? Wouldn't the struggling GD's just start pulling their own third molars? I guess you would be OK if you were working in a hospital, but that's just the 6-year OMFS, right? Maybe Ortho?

This midlevel thing sucks. I didn't find out until I was already in this doctoral program that they would start allowing people with two-year community college degrees to perform essentially every type of bread-and-butter dentistry. I mean, can you imagine? They will actually be doing fillings, extractions, crowns, etc.

Apparently, along with the states that already have dental therapists, there are some 15 states in the process of establishing mid-level legislation - one of which isn't even going to have any resistance from organized dentistry because they decided to stop fighting it. Why Washington, why?

I mean, I was OK with solo hygienists, the glut of new schools, and the recent accreditation of foreign dental schools, but this scares me.
Click to expand...

6 year OMFS will get you an MD and more debt. The jaw reconstruction and other more MD type things that OMFS perform at a hospital, do not pay well. They are based on the horribly low medicare reimbursement rates. What's more is that they are as one OMFS told me, "litigation nightmares". Ortho is too oversaturated. There are residency programs growing like weeds all over the country, some of which accept up to 15 residents per program. Unless you have a relative, ortho is a no go.

sacapuntas said:
The ADA is stronger than other professional organizations, be thankful for that.
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Guys I hate to be the killjoy, but the ADA although it is stronger than other professional organizations CANNOT match the lobby groups that want to shove this therapist stuff. The for-profit educational lobby (DeVry, etc), the corporate dental lobby (backed by private equity on WALL ST), and the worse lobby of all the allied health profession lobby (ie, the nurses, PAs, and FNPs, and now the little therapists) are all combining their efforts to shove this through. I particularly despise the nurse lobby. They know what they are doing is unethical.

The little nurses (and now the little dental therapists) remind me of the buffoon cheerleader in high school that complains when she got a 50 on an algebra test, and argued foolishly with the teacher that 1+1 really can equal 3, and thinks that with her 1.0 GPA she should still get into med school or something like that. Entitled, arrogant, and snotty. And not intelligent.

My backup plan is to attend night classes for PA school. A DDS going to a PA school. Embarassing, but I'll do what I've got to do, if things get bad.

Keep your debt down guys. Live frugally. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
 
rejection is not in my vocabulary brother!! 5 interviews already!!
 
PaulS said:
did you get rejected?
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No. I was planning to apply next year but having second thoughts, obviously. Took the DAT (AA:21) and the MCAT (29M) this summer.

dichloromethane said:
1 post an this is it? Nice. You're so informed
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This is the type of response I knew would come up but I'd appreciate it if you'd post meaningful discussion.

Really, the overall question that I'm seeking input from fellow pre-dents is: at what cost is going into dentistry, as a lifelong career choice, not worth it anymore?

I looked at dentistry because I was attracted to the compensation and lifestyle factors. I'm attracted to the healthcare field but I'm not going to lie and say that I love working on people's teeth. I'm fairly sure many pre-dents evaluated medicine first but focused on dentistry for obvious reasons (less time training, pay comparable to primary care docs, etc). However, I think the lifestyle factors that have kept dentistry attractive will disappear shortly.
 
jpark1800 said:
I don't know whether he got rejected, but I want to know: Did you get rejected?

Thank for your post, OP. I have made posts in the past stating exactly that corporate chains will be the big winners of the mid-level game. I was brushed off by a lot of predents without them even giving any statements as to why I was wrong.

The future is so easy to predict it is not even funny. Dental therapists will say that they are interested in the rural areas and that there is a need for dental care in rural areas. The legislation will get passed. The therapists will not go to the rural areas (this is exactly what happened with NPs, FNPs, PAs, etc). They will flock to the chains, and the chains will reduce employment of dentists. Chain dentists will handle only complicated cases. (This is what happened at one of my local hospitals. They got rid of all the Anesthesiologists overnight, and replaced them with CRNAs and the few Anesthesiologists left, only 'supervise' and handle difficult cases, and take call, and make very little.)

You forgot to add that the for-profit-ed schools that churn out the dental therapists will also be winners. I am actually interested in this, perhaps starting my own for-profit-school.

You also forgot to add women dentists. Most women dentists want to work a job and have a family life and would rather not spend loads of time to build a practice. Dental chains will exploit this and women will accept the slightly lower salary. Sucks for men.

I think you are right, about general strategy: Keep debt low and go to cheapest school. Sucks for some of us whose state schools are very expensive.

Perhaps the future really is just OMFS or bust lol.
Click to expand...

Insightful, jpark! I agree with you on all points that you've made and thanks for responding.

I've kept my eye on applying since 2008 and have noticed that it isn't until someone has matriculated into dental school do they realize what they've signed up for in terms of debt and career outlook. Who the f* cares what the schools or pre-dental clubs say and their rationale behind why tuition is increasing - I see admissions deans continually talking up dentistry as if it's still the pre-2008 platinum age of the profession. What you brought up regarding dental schools and for-profit-ed / career college trade schools cashing in on the dental therapist mania that will undoubtedly unfold over the next decade is alarming. I'm not attacking dentistry - it's been an awesome profession where successful private practice have thrived. I'm just concerned that the position dentistry currently holds as a profession is coming to an end and will turn into what pharmacy has become where corporations like Walgreens holds the cards.
 
awaitsimpatient said:
We are getting OFF topic Here!! lol
Please all of you, listen to OP and DO NOT apply to Dentistry ( is as bad profession) lol this will increase my chances of acceptance hehe
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People should really take serious note to this issue. All joking aside, schools that cost over $350,000 will break you. Most of you predents have no idea what is going on. Schools like BU, NYU, and USC will honestly leave you ruined - remember that student loans cannot be tossed out in bankruptcy court. This is bad - no only for you, but the whole profession. If all you get into is NYU, USC, or BU, you might want to consider another profession - no joke. If you are set on doing dentistry, you might even consider moving to another state and claiming residency. If you want to brush this advice aside, then do so - you are just being naive or , worse yet, burying your head in the group. Have a look at dentaltown or the the thread in the dental section of sdn about debt - it will change your whole perspective. I am lucky to have a scholarship that will let me graduate with less than $200,000. If I had to go to a school costing around $400,000, I would probably pick medicine over dentistry.
 
The debt does suck. I would not be comfortable with the amount school leave us with which is why I'm in the HPSP applicant pool.

However, I think most predets underestimate the difficulty of landing a 40k/yr (pretax) job, with befits, in this economy. Without dental school most of you will be left making ~30-35k /yr without befits. This compensation will be made up of a patch-work of different part time jobs [totaling 50-60 hrs /wk] unrelated to your field of study. Have fun.
 
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the debt does suck bad, especially when your a california resident and the cheapest schools are two of the most competitive public schools, UCSF and UCLA. And for us lucky california residents the total cost of the cheapest school is 312,000 K, pretty soon with the increases in public school tuition every year, USC/UOP will be the bargain at 400K. This state has some serious trouble ahead of it.
 
Plus the $30,000 in undergrad debt, oh why cruel world...
 
I don't know about your state but in mine voters have cut funding year after year to higher education. I hope everyone realizes that even without "financial aid" the nominal amount of tuition that is presented to you as a bill is already subsidized. Meaning, that is your portion to pay after taxes were used to subsidize the school.

In my state UG the portion provided by the state has gone down year after year. So even though the university has contained its costs well (they actually are operating on a smaller budget now adjusting for inflation) the portion that the student pays has gone up every year.

Personally, I blame this on the babyboomers. They've screwed us so hard in life it's not even funny. Their parents made education affordable by not gutting taxes such that they could cover a semester of education with a summer job. The funding has been rolled back so far that higher education costs in my state are an afterthought in terms of the total budget. In fact, it is dwarfed by state programs that benefit seniors.

If you're young - get out and vote. It's only going to get worse in the future as more cross the line into retirement. Take note - now that most babyboomers' kids are out of the house, and their homes are largely paid off or are down sizing, it is now politically palatable to discuss eliminating tax credits for kids/dependents or home loan interest in order to "save SS and medicare". See the way this **** is going?



toastybread said:
Plus the $30,000 in undergrad debt, oh why cruel world...
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UCSD6 said:
the debt does suck bad, especially when your a california resident and the cheapest schools are two of the most competitive public schools, UCSF and UCLA. And for us lucky california residents the total cost of the cheapest school is 312,000 K, pretty soon with the increases in public school tuition every year, USC/UOP will be the bargain at 400K. This state has some serious trouble ahead of it.
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not to mention illegal immigrants get to pay in-state tuitions.
out of state legal US citizens pay higher tuition than illegal immigrants in California.

California can't even balance its budget, who voted jerry clown into office?
 
badabigboom said:
not to mention illegal immigrants get to pay in-state tuitions.
out of state legal US citizens pay higher tuition than illegal immigrants in California.

California can't even balance its budget, who voted jerry clown into office?
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Yes, this part makes me particularly angry. Just imagine: Illegals get instate. Suppose the DREAM ACT passes and suppose Texas vs Fisher Supreme court case rules in favor of affirmative action. It is very obvious that Asian enrollment will plummet.

America and California are strong. It can withstand people like Governor Jerry Brown. It will be far easier to limit and undo the follies of Governor Jerry Brown than to restore the necessary common sense and good judgment to a depraved electorate willing to have such a man for their governor.

Blaming the prince of the fools [CA Governor Jerry Brown] should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.
 
As it stands now, I think 250-275k in debt for dental school is about the MOST anyone should take on. And that is a huge chunk of change. I'm thinking the only way someone can take this kind of dough onto their backs is if they have help paying it back when they graduate (think spouse, significant other, etc).

I do not see how anyone graduating with 400k+ in debt just from their 4 year run in dental school stands a chance in the world alone. You will be crushed. You'd need a spouse that makes 200k a year already with no debt that can pay for living while your entire paycheck goes to paying off your loans as fast as you can.

Don't believe any of the nay sayers. The higher education bubble is real. It WILL burst. When? I do not know. But it's going to burst. And it's going to be a big deal.

"No credit? No problem! What is it that you say you needed? 400k? Not an issue! Just sign here....."

"So now you want to go to Ortho school? Good for you! What will you be needing today? 200k more? Don't worry about it!! Just sign right here..."


In many ways it's worse than the housing market crisis. You can take as much as you want without even a credit check. As long as the Fed keeps printing, and the misinformed students keep lining up at the doors, the bubble will keep getting bigger.
 
NDPitch said:
As it stands now, I think 250-275k in debt for dental school is about the MOST anyone should take on. And that is a huge chunk of change. I'm thinking the only way someone can take this kind of dough onto their backs is if they have help paying it back when they graduate (think spouse, significant other, etc).

I do not see how anyone graduating with 400k+ in debt just from their 4 year run in dental school stands a chance in the world alone. You will be crushed. You'd need a spouse that makes 200k a year already with no debt that can pay for living while your entire paycheck goes to paying off your loans as fast as you can.

Don't believe any of the nay sayers. The higher education bubble is real. It WILL burst. When? I do not know. But it's going to burst. And it's going to be a big deal.

"No credit? No problem! What is it that you say you needed? 400k? Not an issue! Just sign here....."

"So now you want to go to Ortho school? Good for you! What will you be needing today? 200k more? Don't worry about it!! Just sign right here..."


In many ways it's worse than the housing market crisis. You can take as much as you want without even a credit check. As long as the Fed keeps printing, and the misinformed students keep lining up at the doors, the bubble will keep getting bigger.
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Totally agree, except I have questions about the bubble concept. I agree that student loans are crazy and getting out of hand, but how can it burst? We can't default or walk away from the loans. The only "burst" I can see is no one applying anymore because dental school is 900,000 dollars. Then wouldn't they just lower the interest rates to encourage borrowing, or the dental schools would lower tuition to meet demand? I just don't see how it bursts. Like I said I'm not necessarily disagreeing, more like asking for an explanation.
 
mmmsteakdinners said:
Totally agree, except I have questions about the bubble concept. I agree that student loans are crazy and getting out of hand, but how can it burst? We can't default or walk away from the loans. The only "burst" I can see is no one applying anymore because dental school is 900,000 dollars. Then wouldn't they just lower the interest rates to encourage borrowing, or the dental schools would lower tuition to meet demand? I just don't see how it bursts. Like I said I'm not necessarily disagreeing, more like asking for an explanation.
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We can't get rid of these loans through bankruptcy. You are correct there. That might actually make the problem worse, though. It stays with every graduate. Everywhere they go, it will be on their backs.

By "burst", I envision a point where the price of dental school is so crazy (and med school, law school, pharm, college in general, etc), that current graduates will have debt that they can't pay back. Prospective applicants will also steer clear of applying, because what's the point of taking on something like 700k? Schools will either be forced to close, or slash prices. The government will call a panic legislation to alleviate the problem. New regulations will be put in place - loans will be harder to come by. They will perhaps draft another "bailout" for the thousands and thousands of graduates that are economically buried. The stock market will become very unstable at the thought of printing billions of more dollars to bail out graduates at the expense of tax payers.

The bubble will have burst.

It sounds extreme even to me, but I think something like this is entirely plausible at the rate things are going right now.
 
NDPitch said:
We can't get rid of these loans through bankruptcy. You are correct there. That might actually make the problem worse, though. It stays with every graduate. Everywhere they go, it will be on their backs.

By "burst", I envision a point where the price of dental school is so crazy (and med school, law school, pharm, college in general, etc), that current graduates will have debt that they can't pay back. Prospective applicants will also steer clear of applying, because what's the point of taking on something like 700k? Schools will either be forced to close, or slash prices. The government will call a panic legislation to alleviate the problem. New regulations will be put in place - loans will be harder to come by. They will perhaps draft another "bailout" for the thousands and thousands of graduates that are economically buried. The stock market will become very unstable at the thought of printing billions of more dollars to bail out graduates at the expense of tax payers.

The bubble will have burst.

It sounds extreme even to me, but I think something like this is entirely plausible at the rate things are going right now.
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Agree again with most of this. However, I think you are wrong with the vastness of the problem. For example, I'd say a majority of students are NOT struggling financially when they come out. I think what is going to happen is expensive schools are going to see less students with loans and more students just paying cash. The schools will have too much time to see a decrease in applications before they can get in trouble. They can simply fire some professors, reduce tuition, etc. to level out the supply demand curve.

I do not think the stock market would be affected because there is no defaulting and the population affected is too small. Us being in debt to the government is what the government wants, why would they bail us out?

The only way for this problem to be fixed is if only 4,000 people applied for 5,000 seats. Until then it just sucks.
 
jpark1800 said:
I don't even know how to respond to this, and honestly, I am well-aware that it is not worth my time. But this is offensive and highly sexist. First of all, for you to assume that "most" women are not interested in building a practice and therefore that we will accept a lower salary is a vast, disgusting oversight on your part. Wait, so you're assuming that because women are currently (on average) paid a lower salary than men for the same amount of work, that somehow we are OKAY with this? That women aren't continuing to fight this explicit example of inequality in our society today? Why do you think that Obama is attempting to pass acts that ensure women are paid equally? And what makes you think that every woman is going to work part time or accept a second rate salary adjustment to take care of YOUR children? Grow up. This isn't the 1950s. More women are entering the field than every before and I highly suggest that you take some time to reevaluate how you speak of and talk to women. You're most likely going to be working with one.
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DoeAdeer said:
Have you ever heard of the American Medical Association?
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Go look up the % of MD's belonging to the AMA and the % dentists belonging to the ADA.


Then come back and try to make a funny one liner.
 
mmmsteakdinners said:
Agree again with most of this. However, I think you are wrong with the vastness of the problem. For example, I'd say a majority of students are NOT struggling financially when they come out. I think what is going to happen is expensive schools are going to see less students with loans and more students just paying cash. The schools will have too much time to see a decrease in applications before they can get in trouble. They can simply fire some professors, reduce tuition, etc. to level out the supply demand curve.

I do not think the stock market would be affected because there is no defaulting and the population affected is too small. Us being in debt to the government is what the government wants, why would they bail us out?

The only way for this problem to be fixed is if only 4,000 people applied for 5,000 seats. Until then it just sucks.
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I agree with the paying cash thing. The problem won't be as drastic for some people, simply because they will have a well off family that can assist them with the education expenses via cash. Or, maybe the applicant was already wealthy to begin with. But this could result in a situation where the only people attending these programs are the ones coming from money already. I'm not saying that's a problem - but there will be plenty of people that think otherwise.

And as far as the population not being big enough - that's a possibility. But the only stat I will offer is that the current outstanding amount of student loans in the US trumps that of credit card debt and auto loan debt. We're talking upwards of a trillion dollars outstanding sitting on graduates' backs. And that's right now - that will only increase moving forward.

This stuff makes for great discussion, huh? Haha.
 
US American debt for car loans is 700 billion, credit cards is 800 billion, but student loans have surpassed 1 trillion in debt. IMHO, the biggest problem is the fact that loans have been taken from privatized sector, to government loans. The massive inflation that we see in tuition is a direct result of federal student aid; the government will give us loans for almost any tuition, the colleges know we have it, so of course they will raise our tuition.

This problem is completely out of our control...I will have 140k in debt from my undergraduate alone. Unfortunately, this is because my family is an income bracket where we do not qualify for any federal aid other than Parent Plus loans. Despite the fact that I will be solely responsible for my undergraduate debt, I was required to put down my family's income...as an independent who will receive no help from my parents, why can I not qualify for any aid?

Sorry for that rant, but I guess you could say I have some strong opinions about this topic. I really hope that I can attend OHSU as an instate student, as I would only add ~175k to my debt.
 
I agree with what most are saying. But, if we're being honest, going to an instate school (maybe with the exception of CA) will keep your loans in the 140-170 range. At least it's like that in my state. While that is a substantial amount of money it would not be unrealistic to both service and take care of that on a dentists income.

Just stay away from the Roseman, NYU, USC's and you'll be fine. If you cannot, but still really want to do dentistry, I think it would be best to start getting creative. Seriously look at HPSP - it's a great deal and you will have NO dental school debt. I would spend another year in Iraq for that piece of mind👍
 
predent12 said:
I don't even know how to respond to this, and honestly, I am well-aware that it is not worth my time. But this is offensive and highly sexist. First of all, for you to assume that "most" women are not interested in building a practice and therefore that we will accept a lower salary is a vast, disgusting oversight on your part. Wait, so you're assuming that because women are currently (on average) paid a lower salary than men for the same amount of work, that somehow we are OKAY with this? That women aren't continuing to fight this explicit example of inequality in our society today? Why do you think that Obama is attempting to pass acts that ensure women are paid equally? And what makes you think that every woman is going to work part time or accept a second rate salary adjustment to take care of YOUR children? Grow up. This isn't the 1950s. More women are entering the field than every before and I highly suggest that you take some time to reevaluate how you speak of and talk to women. You're most likely going to be working with one.
Click to expand...

My comment is is NOT offensive nor is it highly sexist. Sure there are exceptions, but most women do not want to invest the time in starting their own practice. Why don't you take the time to look at the surveys that are out there?

'Is Opting Out the New American Dream For Working Women' - 84% of working women told ForbesWoman that staying home to raise children is a financial luxury they aspire to. Approximately half of working moms agree their overall happiness would increase if they didn’t work.

There are plenty of articles out there backing up what I said.

"Why do you think that Obama is attempting to pass acts that ensure women are paid equally?" :laugh::laugh:

This is hilarious. You think Lilly-Ledbetter was about equal pay lol :laugh:. It was NOT about equal pay. It was about giving the little trial lawyers everything they wanted:

Paycheck Act is trial lawyers' payday - "The Ledbetter Act was a gift to trial lawyers, not women, who are less likely to be hired once bundled with potential lawsuits."

I am commenting on trends that I see. This has been discussed on SDN before you even created an account, and nobody took quite the uproar. Here is the thread and here is a quote from that thread:

" Females in dental school. Females are just as capable as doing everything a male can, but females, in general, don't want to own their own practice as much as males. They would prefer to raise a family and "work for someone else". They have every right to do this, but they will provide a large supply of workers for corporate offices and group practices."

I know more women are entering the field, I am aware of that lol. So are the dental chains. And believe me whether you or I like it, they will not pay you as much. This is supply and demand and capitalism. NOTHING ELSE. I am not holding a grudge against women and I never said I resent women working as dentists.

I noticed in your original post you deleted the part that said I was just concerned about money. No I am not. I am concerned about patient care. Why don't you talk to doctors at hospitals and why don't you talk to dentists at Dental Chains and see what they think. There is a Senate judicial investigation into the unethical conduct of dental chains.

I am very comfortable with that post I made and I am very confident that I respect women completely. So for you to try to paint me as a male chauvinist who dislikes women, is laughable.

In closing:

Blaming the prince of the fools [Obama] should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
 
Jpark, I'm with ya buddy. Predent12, I understand what you're saying too. But, let's try not to get off topic. Sometimes threads have a way of running away and becoming a flame war.

Steering back on topic...

Does anyone think other professional programs are better off than dentistry now and into the future? MD, DO, PharmD, Opto, Law, Peds, Vet?!?

I think we could all pull negatives out of all of them. Aren't all of the pre-meds having their own "sky is falling" panic attacks about Obama Care ruining the free market of health care? People think Pharmacy is dying and saturated, being run by chains. Lawyers are in such great supply that many can't find jobs when they graduate. People think dentists are going to be swallowed up by corporate chains and clinics will exist in Walmart, run by dental therapists. The tuition for all of these programs is through the roof.

Point being - there is always some huge negative happening for all professional careers. I would like to have lived 30 years ago to see what people were talking about back then. I'm sure there were concerns then too. But I wish I knew what the future held. I'm tired of being so nervous that everything will fall apart. I just want to be a medical professional, be good at what I do, earn a good living, and be happy.

Has anyone seen the Delorean around? I need to borrow it and utilize the flux capacitor to see whether or not I'll be afloat in 20 years.
 
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Hahahaha it's hard to see what healthcare field isn't going to be saturated especially because the healthcare field is an easy access for low/middle class people to rise in their income status. However, I feel that if you move to areas where the patient to dentist ratio is high, I think going into the dental profession is not of a big concern financially. The only problem is, the area you move into might not be the ideal location that you want to practice, but hey, you gotta start somewhere right? :]
 
NDPitch said:
Jpark, I'm with ya buddy. Predent12, I understand what you're saying too. But, let's try not to get off topic. Sometimes threads have a way of running away and becoming a flame war.

Steering back on topic...

Does anyone think other professional programs are better off than dentistry now and into the future? MD, DO, PharmD, Opto, Law, Peds, Vet?!?

I think we could all pull negatives out of all of them. Aren't all of the pre-meds having their own "sky is falling" panic attacks about Obama Care ruining the free market of health care? People think Pharmacy is dying and saturated, being run by chains. Lawyers are in such great supply that many can't find jobs when they graduate. Dentists are going to be swallowed up my corporate chains and clinics will exist in Walmart, run by dental therapists. The tuition for all of these programs is through the roof.

Point being - there is always some huge negative happening for all professional careers. I would like to have lived 30 years ago to see what people were talking about back then. I'm sure there were concerns then too. But I wish I knew what the future held. I'm tired of being so nervous that everything will fall apart. I just want to be a medical professional, be good at what I do, earn a good living, and be happy.

Has anyone seen the Delorean around? I need to borrow it and utilize the flux capacitor to see whether or not I'll be afloat in 20 years.
Click to expand...


I completely agree with these statements. Look around enough and you will find that most professions have problems associated with them. No degree is a ticket for automatic riches and success. I agree that there must have been negatives to the profession 30 years ago, but many people have still found success. I would imagine one of the biggest differences between today and 30 years ago is that prospective students did not have the "luxury" of internet forums to occupy their minds with "the sky is falling" threads.

I knew going into dentistry that success would not be guaranteed, and many of these threads have worried me a little about the future of the profession. However, I also knew that choosing not to pursue dentistry, and following another career path, would not be an automatic ticket for success either.
 
NDPitch said:
Does anyone think other professional programs are better off than dentistry now and into the future? MD, DO, PharmD, Opto, Law, Peds, Vet?!?

I think we could all pull negatives out of all of them. Aren't all of the pre-meds having their own "sky is falling" panic attacks about Obama Care ruining the free market of health care? People think Pharmacy is dying and saturated, being run by chains. Lawyers are in such great supply that many can't find jobs when they graduate. People think dentists are going to be swallowed up by corporate chains and clinics will exist in Walmart, run by dental therapists. The tuition for all of these programs is through the roof.
Click to expand...


👍 . I wish they would just decrease tuition costs..why have they skyrocketed so much in the past 10 years? I'm sure they have added a lot to the programs since then but I feel like schools are just getting greedy anymore
 
MR1990 said:
I looked at dentistry because I was attracted to the compensation and lifestyle factors. I'm attracted to the healthcare field but I'm not going to lie and say that I love working on people's teeth.
Click to expand...

MR1990 said:
I don't mean to be "sky is falling" and Debbie Downer but I feel that dentistry, as a profession, is going bust.
Click to expand...

With respect to what? You mean lining your pockets?

🤣. Nice try buddy. I think it's going to take more than scare tactics to dissuade me or anyone else here.

In the end, if I make it into dentistry, I will definitely be able to do as I please and definitely please as I do.
 
A physician I volunteer with told me that when he started medicine everyone told him to NOT because of medicare. He is retired now; however, he told me after residency his income went up pretty much every year and medicine "treated him very well".

Lets hope we have the same luck. I agree with your sentiment, though. It seems that the sky is always falling. I feel like it's our generations version of "the bomb". It doesn't take long to look around see that, as of late, we're all very preoccupied with end of the world situations, zombie apocalypses and fear in general. It's fear that has brought the sensationalized careers of "futurists" to a head to further propagate fear and make loads of cash writing books and appearing on NEWS stations.

However, the concerns with debt I do agree with. Just go to a state school, do IBR etc.


NDPitch said:
Point being - there is always some huge negative happening for all professional careers. I would like to have lived 30 years ago to see what people were talking about back then. I'm sure there were concerns then too. But I wish I knew what the future held. I'm tired of being so nervous that everything will fall apart. I just want to be a medical professional, be good at what I do, earn a good living, and be happy.

Has anyone seen the Delorean around? I need to borrow it and utilize the flux capacitor to see whether or not I'll be afloat in 20 years.
Click to expand...
 
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