100 reasons not to go to grad school...

[bpsydme]

For those who have read that blog and/or Thomas Benton's "Big Lie of the Life of Mind", I wonder what your thoughts are regarding how much of it applies to Clinical Psychology PhD program.

For me personally, I think that many of those points are true just based on what I've seen so far at the various labs I've worked at, and especially at my current place of employment. However, I'd like to think that as clinical psychologist wannabe's (or to be's) we have a set of skills that doesn't relegate us to just professorship or research. There is the choice of clinical practice if one chooses. Is this wishful thinking? Are we just as doomed to those "100 reasons" than our English or History doctoral candidate counterparts?

What do you think?

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[Marissa4usa]

I've read the blog or parts of it a while ago, and while I do think that there is some truth to it, I've also come to realize that people just like to complain. Period. It's just seems to be human nature. Nobody is happy with what they got.

Fact is there's is a downside to literally every profession that is out there. And if there isn't people are going to find one. I like to read to med and pharmacy forums on studentdoctor, and people there complain that instead of $500K they'll only be making $350K per year with a greater workload due to Obamacare. Yes, I know they'll pay crazy amounts of tuition, but in the end they will make more money than I ever will (not matter how hard I work and good I am at my job), and yet, they complain how terrible they have it.

I think anybody who wants to call him/herself a doctor should be intelligent enough to get educated about what they're getting themselves into. Then, based on that they'll need to make smart decisions. In Psychology that means to not go to a diploma mill where you fork over 200K for a subpar education to just be overlooked at (almost) every job you apply to. It means that you need to be flexible geographically. It means to maybe not go for the doctorate if you really 'just' want to do therapy.

Bottomline, I've yet to meet a person (no matter how little or how much they make) who doesn't complain about how terrible the job market is in their profession, how they're getting paid less for more work, how regulations making it more difficult for them to do their job, etc. It doesn't mean that those things shouldn't get fixed, but there simply is no such thing as the perfect profession.

 

[PHD12]

For those who have read that blog and/or Thomas Benton's "Big Lie of the Life of Mind", I wonder what your thoughts are regarding how much of it applies to Clinical Psychology PhD program.

For me personally, I think that many of those points are true just based on what I've seen so far at the various labs I've worked at, and especially at my current place of employment. However, I'd like to think that as clinical psychologist wannabe's (or to be's) we have a set of skills that doesn't relegate us to just professorship or research. There is the choice of clinical practice if one chooses. Is this wishful thinking? Are we just as doomed to those "100 reasons" than our English or History doctoral candidate counterparts?

What do you think?

I'm a few months away from completing my PhD in a funded clinical psychology program. From networking with hundreds of people in the field who have clinical careers, I don't think anyone should enter the field if they need to earn a living. Its pretty tough to live on internship, post-doc, and early career salaries if you are interested in doing clinical work. I'm also finding many post-docs that are unpaid or pay stipends of 5,000 for full-time work---that is how dire the field has become. PhDs in the humanities do not take on unpaid jobs at least. If you are thinking of private practice, be ready to have a minimum wage income or no income for the first 2 years of your practice (I know people who were losing money for the first year). I have yet to meet a psychologist who is full--unless they are doing more high-stakes forensic work. Other PhD programs also do not have diploma mils popping up everywhere that admit 200 students each year. I am personally able to pursue a clinical career because I went to a funded program (no debt) and have a partner who is earning a real income.

I think academics/researchers in clinical psychology have more options and higher salaries because they can always do clinical work on the side, and thus have multiple sources of income at least. Bottom line: I wouldn't recommend the field for those that want clinical careers and are not interested in research/academic careers.

 

[bpsydme]

I'm a few months away from completing my PhD in a funded clinical psychology program. From networking with hundreds of people in the field who have clinical careers, I don't think anyone should enter the field if they need to earn a living. Its pretty tough to live on internship, post-doc, and early career salaries if you are interested in doing clinical work. I'm also finding many post-docs that are unpaid or pay stipends of 5,000 for full-time work---that is how dire the field has become. PhDs in the humanities do not take on unpaid jobs at least. If you are thinking of private practice, be ready to have a minimum wage income or no income for the first 2 years of your practice (I know people who were losing money for the first year). I have yet to meet a psychologist who is full--unless they are doing more high-stakes forensic work. Other PhD programs also do not have diploma mils popping up everywhere that admit 200 students each year. I am personally able to pursue a clinical career because I went to a funded program (no debt) and have a partner who is earning a real income.

I think academics/researchers in clinical psychology have more options and higher salaries because they can always do clinical work on the side, and thus have multiple sources of income at least. Bottom line: I wouldn't recommend the field for those that want clinical careers and are not interested in research/academic careers.

What?!! So you're saying that the private sector is even worse than academics? While I haven't connected with hundreds of people (in fact, i've only spoken to 1 neuropsychologist) and was told that while the internships/postdocs, etc. are a pain to get through, once you get your degree, you're in demand. I've tried looking at various job search engines (i.e. monster, indeed) in the scenario I don't go back to school, and most, if not all, psychology positions require PhD's.
I should've stuck with premed while I had the chance, I guess.

Since you're graduating, what do you plan to do?

 

[PHD12]

[Bottomline, I've yet to meet a person (no matter how little or how much they make) who doesn't complain about how terrible the job market is in their profession, how they're getting paid less for more work, how regulations making it more difficult for them to do their job, etc. It doesn't mean that those things shouldn't get fixed, but there simply is no such thing as the perfect profession.[/QUOTE]

I generally agree. However, there are some fields that are just completely out of whack in terms of the number of years required vs. the salary and job security. There is something different about someone complaining about making 200K per year (in the case of psychiatrists) vs. people who are in professions that require advanced degrees and are not getting paid once they graduate, such as MFTs and some clinical psychology graduates.

 

[PHD12]

What?!! So you're saying that the private sector is even worse than academics? While I haven't connected with hundreds of people (in fact, i've only spoken to 1 neuropsychologist) and was told that while the internships/postdocs, etc. are a pain to get through, once you get your degree, you're in demand. I've tried looking at various job search engines (i.e. monster, indeed) in the scenario I don't go back to school, and most, if not all, psychology positions require PhD's.
I should've stuck with premed while I had the chance, I guess.

I think the private practice market has taken a bigger hit with the economy, although there has been a downward trend in reimbursements for many years.

The salaries vary a lot depending on your location. I think if you are geographically flexible the job market is probably better (as many others have mentioned). If you get into a funded PhD program and are geographically flexible, then you will have more job options. I know several neuropsychologists who had a hard time finding a position as well, but many were geographically limited. Many people end up getting married during graduate school so its hard to predict if you will be able to re-locate or not. I would encourage you to do as much research as you can since knowing one person in the field does not say anything about the field as a whole. You can look at some salary surveys online (these vary from 65K to 85K for experienced licensed psychologists, depending on the survey; post-doctoral salaries can vary from 25K or less to as high as 45K). You should also contact several people in private practice and ask them about the market in your area.

 

[Sanman]

Well, the private practice market is large. I do believe that those practices with a large referral stream will fare well, while many will struggle. However, that will likely mean larger practices associated with medical providers, hospitals, etc rather than smaller freestanding practices. Personally, I feel that salaries positions at hospitals, medical or psych ctrs, or government jobs are best for early career folks. What I feel most people do not get is that it is not simply about good jobs. There are good jobs out there. It is the co-occurrence of a well paid position, in the area of the field that is your interest, in an acceptable locale for you to live in. Being early career , I have been looking around and have had a couple of been great opportunities suggested by colleagues for me and seen a few more. However, they are not in locales I would ever consider. I know several colleagues that are making money working with me, but have no interest in my area of work. It was simply a position in the area they wanted to live with a decent salary. It may take years to find the position you want, but if you are not working in the area while you wait for that you will not be competitive. The larger issue if you are married or attached is that the field does not pay enough to allow you to support a spouse if you both relocate, so it is not as if can simply move and expect there to be no financial issues if your SO cannot find a position in their field. Things to think about. Are you willing to move to a less desirable location to train or take a good position? Will you have that ability with a spouse? Will you get tired of moving to different locations you are not happy with for a job? Things that a person needs to consider before entering the field.

 

[fallen625]

From these forums, it seems that location issues are huge and don't seem to end - they exist for grad school, internship, post-docs, etc. How do people deal with it if they have spouses (and especially if the spouse is the breadwinner in the family, already making money that I will never even have a shot of ever making in psychology)?

It is very hard to justify making a location move for my career. I can't help but think (and my mother in law was kind enough to even mention it out loud once) that "his career is more important than mine". But at the same time, it seems that location flexibility is almost essential to be successful in clinical psychology.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I know people who've "made it work" when geographically-limited, but it definitely requires a bit more ingenuity and legwork than if you're completely (or perhaps even a little) open. It could entail taking a less-desirable position in order to get your foot in the door, cobbling together a variety of consultation and part-time duties into a full-time commitment, or other solutions of which I've not yet heard.

You could start looking into the job market now if you already have an idea where you'd like to end up. And if you're already in the city/state where you'll be staying, definitely start sending out feelers sooner rather than later. It's never too early to start laying the foundation for a future job offer.

 

[PHD12]

From these forums, it seems that location issues are huge and don't seem to end - they exist for grad school, internship, post-docs, etc. How do people deal with it if they have spouses (and especially if the spouse is the breadwinner in the family, already making money that I will never even have a shot of ever making in psychology)?

It is very hard to justify making a location move for my career. I can't help but think (and my mother in law was kind enough to even mention it out loud once) that "his career is more important than mine". But at the same time, it seems that location flexibility is almost essential to be successful in clinical psychology.

clinical psychology is a pretty demanding path like getting an MD. I don't think its a good career for people who have to prioritize their spouses' careers since it requires enormous amount of time and jumping through hoops (7-8 years from start until licensure). Most clinical psychology students put in 60+ hour weeks and this continues on internship and post-doc. I don't know if this will strain your relationship.

 

[Sanman]

I know people who have made it work and other that have not. I know that one of a my former classmates (one that was academically superior to me) was able to find a local position for herself but it was at the cost choosing between a position that she was not interested in that was APA accredited (a site my program was connected to that accepted her during clearinghouse) or a new internship that was yet to be APA accredited. I chose to forgo a shot at a strong post-doc (that would have meant moving hundreds of miles from family and relationships) to take a job that is in my area of interest, but nowhere as prestigious or stimulating because I would not have been happy and I am not sure mt relationship would have handled the added stress. One couple I know did LDR (1000 miles apart) for internship and post-doc; it ended up breaking a 4 year relationship just prior to them getting engaged. As others have mentioned, this is a demanding career. It can be made to work and you can get lucky (I got my internship in a major city that was home for me), but if you run out of luck and ideas at the same time, geographically limiting oneself can force one to choose between career and family. If the money does not matter so much and geography matters more, a degree that is easier to gain licensure in may be a better alternative (MSW, Counseling, School psych, etc). I have a close friend with the same issue. She is in school psych and there are good jobs out there, but none in this area with this economy. However, her husband make $150K+ and she really can't afford to move anywhere unless he finds a similar position with similar pay there. Personally, I know I can have my dream position, but need to move where my SO is when we get engaged. Maybe I walk into that dream position this year. But, the possibility exists of grinding it out 5-10 yrs before getting that position. However, financially, the reality is that I need to move for the overall well-being of my future family now as she has the higher paying position in the lower cost of living area.

 

[psychstudent5]

That blog has a lot of truths. I know people will say a clinical psych PhD is different than humanities or other PhD programs because of the flexibility. There is truth in that. It is more flexible than PhDs in other fields, but it is not more flexible in comparison to fields across the board. You obtain a narrowly defined set of skills that are difficult to transfer to other jobs and fields. What's most troubling is how a lot of information about psych and the direction of psych is purposefully withheld for undergrads. If I knew the full story about psych while i was an undergrad, I would have never entered this field.

 

[PHD12]

If I knew the full story about psych while i was an undergrad, I would have never entered this field.

I've met way too many psychologists and doctoral students at the end of their training who say that they would never enter the field if they knew what it would be like now. Unfortunately, many of them are saddled with debt and cannot get out of it. I think this forum is helpful because professors, professionals and other graduate students do not inform prospective students about the drawbacks and limitations of the field. I never heard anything about the internship crisis, post-doc issues, licensure hurdles, and needing to be geographically flexible in order to get a position--and I asked extensively about the job market (although its changed in the past 5 years as well). Its better to know this in advance than after committing nearly a decade of your life to being a psychologist and not being able to support yourself.

I read that the median debt for PsyD graduates is now 120K. This is higher than the average debt for law students (98,000). The unemployment rate among PsyD graduates is also higher than for individuals with bachelor degrees. This information along with starting salaries is really important for the APA to disseminate.

 

[cara susanna]

I know a for-profit school PsyD student (unaccredited program) who thinks that she'll be making almost 100k after graduation.

 

[bpsydme]

I know a for-profit school PsyD student (unaccredited program) who thinks that she'll be making almost 100k after graduation.

Just to keep the conversation going...

I know this sounds elitist, but I believe that a major portion of the blog doesn't have to do with just grad schools in general, but the "how" and "what". Let me explain.

A consistent theme on the "100 reasons" page is money. Going to grad school defers getting your money-making job, it is expensive, and it takes a long time. However, what about students who have tuition and stipend throughout their graduate school career? Yes, maybe not all of these individuals will be funded for the whole duration of their higher education, but not every PhD candidate will graduate with >$100,000 or even $50,000 in debt.
In the hypothetical case that one graduates with manageable to no debt, is grad school still as ill-advised?

Then there's the tiers or ranking of schools. From what I've seen, clin psych is competitive across the board except for a few in very undesirable locations (i.e. Alabama/Tennessee, etc.) or a highly religious affiliated school (like BYU, with something like a 20-30% acceptance rate). Aside from the few famous or big-wig researchers at some state schools, I think it's safe to say that schools like UCLA, Yale, Northwestern, etc. are consistently at the top of most people's list.
Will going to these types of schools put someone in the same predicament as someone from a for-profit institution in the quoted?

Of course if you attend a program that has poor internship match rates, put yourself in massive debt, and take 7-10 years to graduate, then you'll probably find that blog very true. However, for the select few who attend one of the top programs with near 100% match rates (not just for your field, but in general, since I've also read many stories on there that ultimately, the school name matters more in the job market), have little to no debt, and takes 4-5 years to complete, how much do these "problems" apply to them?

I guess a major reason justifying this dichotomy for me is that as an RA for a top-ranked (and I mean TOP TOP ranked, everyone will recognize the name if I mentioned it) clin psych program, our grad students seem to have it pretty easy. Yes, they are busy, but they also seem to have plenty of time to go out and party and do things on the weekends. While they haven't had a ton of publications (in fact, of the 3-4 years the've been around, I think they've had maybe 0-2 each?), they are getting interviews and offers for internships left and right in highly desirable locations. Similar to the quoted, one of them expects to be earning big bucks after he gets his licensure. Are they just delusional? Or being at a top-ranked school afford them things that other "mid-tier" schools cannot?

 

[cara susanna]

It depends on what they want to do for their living and how specialized they are.

However, I will point out that the internship bottleneck is going to keep increasing (due to the growing number of second and third time applicants) and soon even the most competitive students will be impacted. My program's internship applicants always get interviews but not everyone matches.

 

[erg923]

Then there's the tiers or ranking of schools. From what I've seen, clin psych is competitive across the board except for a few in very undesirable locations (i.e. Alabama/Tennessee, etc.) or a highly religious affiliated school (like BYU, with something like a 20-30% acceptance rate).

Tennessee is an "undesirable" location? What are you, from California or something?

Lets just dispel with that real quick, shall we?

Alabama
http://psychology.ua.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Student-Admissions-Outcome-and-Other-Data.pdf

BYU
https://psychology.byu.edu/Pages/Graduate/Clinical/Outcomes.aspx

 

[bpsydme]

.

 

[bpsydme]

It depends on what they want to do for their living and how specialized they are.

However, I will point out that the internship bottleneck is going to keep increasing (due to the growing number of second and third time applicants) and soon even the most competitive students will be impacted. My program's internship applicants always get interviews but not everyone matches.

I never thought about that possibility.

Do you think being more specialized (i.e. forensic/health/neuro/etc psych) is more damaging to finding a job?

 

[cara susanna]

From what I've heard on this board, it helps you get a job.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

I never thought about that possibility.

Do you think being more specialized (i.e. forensic/health/neuro/etc psych) is more damaging to finding a job?

No, it is a huge asset to finding a clinical job. Who needs a generalist psychologist when there are a million master's level therapists who could be paid a little less and do the same work? If you must get a PhD, get it in something specialized and marketable. I wanted to be a professor when I started, so I didn't think about how best to train myself to be marketable in a clinical setting. I am no longer willing to be geographically flexible (although I live in a large and not particularly psychologist-saturated city) and I haven't been able to find a job as a psychologist with any sort of hospital, VA, or agency. There are very few positions available and when they are, they want something very specific that I am not trained in (e.g. Autism specialist). Instead I work in a private practice and get a terrible spilt and no benefits. I like my day to day work, but I have to work way more hours than I would like, and it is still very hard to make ends meet. I am in my mid-thirties and have no savings at all in spite of going to a funded program not having any school debt.

If I could do it again, I honestly wouldn't get a PhD. I am quite surprised by your perception of the students at the program where you are working as still having a life while in school. I feel like I lost my 20's completely, which could have been a really good decade of my life.

Best,
Dr. E

 

[PHD12]

Similar to the quoted, one of them expects to be earning big bucks after he gets his licensure. Are they just delusional? Or being at a top-ranked school afford them things that other "mid-tier" schools cannot?

My program is a reputable, funded program as well. I matched to a top internship in a desirable location that tends to get people from very good funded programs. People from good PhD programs had a really tough time finding a job if they were geographically somewhat limited. If you want to do clinical work, there are simply very few jobs out there for psychologists. At the VA in my location there is maybe 1 opening for a psychologist every few years. Many hospitals no longer hire psychologists. As I've mentioned before, research is better than clinical work.

 

[Pragma]

People from good PhD programs had a really tough time finding a job if they were geographically somewhat limited.

That's one reason, for sure. I'd say my biggest complaint was the stress of geographic limitations when it came to internship, postdoc, and job searches. I was stubborn about moving and refused to, and luckily everything worked out very well in my city, but it could easily have been a problem during any of those searches.

One thing i try to remind myself though is that this issue is not necessarily unique to psychology. Since it is a part of our training model, that is somewhat frustrating, but a lot of people have to move for their jobs. There are some professions that don't need to worry about moving, but many folks do need to move.

 

[cara susanna]

I actually have a better social life during grad school than I did during undergrad.

 

[psychstudent5]

I actually have a better social life during grad school than I did during undergrad.

I do too, but I think it's more of a function of age than where one is on the academic ladder.

 

[psychstudent5]

Just to keep the conversation going...

I know this sounds elitist, but I believe that a major portion of the blog doesn't have to do with just grad schools in general, but the "how" and "what". Let me explain.

A consistent theme on the "100 reasons" page is money. Going to grad school defers getting your money-making job, it is expensive, and it takes a long time. However, what about students who have tuition and stipend throughout their graduate school career? Yes, maybe not all of these individuals will be funded for the whole duration of their higher education, but not every PhD candidate will graduate with >$100,000 or even $50,000 in debt.
In the hypothetical case that one graduates with manageable to no debt, is grad school still as ill-advised?

Then there's the tiers or ranking of schools. From what I've seen, clin psych is competitive across the board except for a few in very undesirable locations (i.e. Alabama/Tennessee, etc.) or a highly religious affiliated school (like BYU, with something like a 20-30% acceptance rate). Aside from the few famous or big-wig researchers at some state schools, I think it's safe to say that schools like UCLA, Yale, Northwestern, etc. are consistently at the top of most people's list.
Will going to these types of schools put someone in the same predicament as someone from a for-profit institution in the quoted?

Of course if you attend a program that has poor internship match rates, put yourself in massive debt, and take 7-10 years to graduate, then you'll probably find that blog very true. However, for the select few who attend one of the top programs with near 100% match rates (not just for your field, but in general, since I've also read many stories on there that ultimately, the school name matters more in the job market), have little to no debt, and takes 4-5 years to complete, how much do these "problems" apply to them?

I guess a major reason justifying this dichotomy for me is that as an RA for a top-ranked (and I mean TOP TOP ranked, everyone will recognize the name if I mentioned it) clin psych program, our grad students seem to have it pretty easy. Yes, they are busy, but they also seem to have plenty of time to go out and party and do things on the weekends. While they haven't had a ton of publications (in fact, of the 3-4 years the've been around, I think they've had maybe 0-2 each?), they are getting interviews and offers for internships left and right in highly desirable locations. Similar to the quoted, one of them expects to be earning big bucks after he gets his licensure. Are they just delusional? Or being at a top-ranked school afford them things that other "mid-tier" schools cannot?

I think you're overestimating the leverage that comes with attending a brand name school. Does it help? Yes, but not in the way that one's undergrad college name helps in getting a job or getting into a post-undergrad program. Psychology is very different. Even though a program may have the best match rate and the best researchers in the field, that does not carry heavily when applying for internships, postdocs, and more importantly, jobs. What matters more is your experience, connections, and willingness to move. And yes, it is true that every clinical psych student is not graduating with >100k in debt. However, with the time, energy, sacrificed money for savings, and potential loans taken out to live on, the ROI is not good. When you graduate, you have to do a year-long postdoc that pays between 20-40k (although you have a doctorate), spend approx. a total of $1000 for a licensure test, and depending on your domain, become board certified, which has its own costs. This is about the first 3 years after you've graduated. It's a tall order to ask from someone who spent 5-7 years in a doctoral program, regardless of how much or little debt you have.

I think it's easy to say that they "have it pretty easy" when you're outside of a doctoral program. I wonder if those graduate students would categorize their experience in the same terms. Also, I doubt they are being offered internships, maybe they are being offered practica/externships since these are not heavily regulated. I say this because internships are no longer offered to applicants (they were ages ago). Nowadays, you obtain one through a matching process (similar to how medical students obtain their residency) after you rank the places you interviewed at and the site ranks those they interviewed.

 

[bpsydme]

Let me just clarify quickly on what I meant by they "have it easy". I meant that in comparison to the impression that the "100 reasons" blog (and other similar pieces of writing) gives that depicts grad students as sleep, food, and life deprived beings working day and night, living on ramen noodles, and have lost all contacts with any friends, family, and significant others for the sake of "the life of the mind".

I don't know these students very personally (and actually make a point not to) so I'm not saying they have it easy compared to myself or other disciplines. But they definitely don't give the impression of overworked laborers, slave to the higher education machine.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I, like Pragma, would say the biggest issue is just the difficulty that can go along with being geographically-limited. The name/cachet of your program does matter, and it can help you find internships, post-docs, and jobs. However, even if you "do everything right," finding a job if you'd like to stay in a specific city or state can be rough, particularly depending on which city/state we're talking about.

I know of a few different individuals who make a very, very good living through psychology, and quite a few more who're at the 90-100k level. However, it's generally not as straight-forward as something like medicine, which is what we always seem to compare ourselves with. Although as I've mentioned before, when I compare myself with friends who've finished doctorates in other fields, particularly in the humanities, I don't feel that I have it very bad off at all. My post-doc pays at or above (>40k) what my friends with PhD's in other fields make, and it wasn't any more difficult to secure than their post-docs (quite the opposite, actually, in some cases).

In part, it's a matter of perspective. Then again, psych likely could be in a much better spot professionally if we'd historically taken more interest in advocating for ourselves in that respect.

 

[edieb]

Add me to the list of people who never would have attended graduate school in clinical psychology. Although I love, love doing EBTs, assessments and testing, I could not see continuing to fight the uphill battle of declining reimbursements from insurance, HUGE amounts of master's level encroachment and struggling to find a job. I went to a university-based PhD program and, as a requirement of the program, completed an APA-approved internship. I worked at the V.A. from 2009-2011 and could really see the writing on the wall for psychologists there. Testing was not valued AT ALL and there was almost no distinction between a psychologist and an MSW. When I left, they were hiring LMHCs and LPCs who would start out making only $9,000 less than a psychologist or a neuropsychologist. Thus, If you want to work at the V.A., you might as well get your MSW or LPC....

One obvious sign of the poor condition of clinical psychology is the fact that all psychologists want to work for the federal government. The reason is that there are few decent paying private sector jobs. When the government is your profession's biggest employer, this is not a good sign at all!!! On the other hand, the V.A. could not find any M.D.s/D.O.s or NPs and was bending over backwards to hire them. This is because their skill sets are in demand in the private sector.

Now being a Ph,D., M.P. (prescribing psychologist), I see how much easier it is when you're linked to the medical field.

 

[Goodluckchuck]

Awww wah wah wah, if you all want I can have you all over so we can cry about our profession? Would that help? Wait...I'll tell you what...Why don't I provide some tea and cookies, would that help.

I have a better idea...why don't we all go on third rate online forums and whine about our profession. Now THAT would absolutely help our profession improve. Boom.

G.G.

 

[Pragma]

I actually have a better social life during grad school than I did during undergrad.

Really? I mean, don't get me wrong, I got out for some happy hours and usually went out one of the weekend nights when I was in grad school, but most of the rest of the time I was working.

When I think back to grad school, I remember weeks going something like this: 20 hours practicum, 20 hours RAship, Classes + Studying 15-20 hours, Thesis/Dissertation work and other publication projects 15-20 hours. When classes were over, teaching and dissertation stuff just kind of filled in more of my time.

The people I know who did a lot of social stuff were generally not on the 5-year-plan, or were amazing at planning.

I have to say, I have much more of a social life post-graduation and post-postdoc than I did as a graduate student and as an undergraduate student!

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Well, some of us are low-class enough to come from backgrounds and fields that not only paid poverty-level wages (not even salaries-earning every dime) where it was completely unreasonable to expect a salary above 40 or 50k (ever), let alone benefits such as health insurance, paid vacation or paid sick days or holidays! So, yeah, the complaining is very tiring around here. You're "only" making 9k more than a masters-level clinician? Well, that's half my historical adult salary. That's freaking incredible. You may not think that's entitlement, but it sure looks like it to me!!

 

[bpsydme]

Well, some of us are low-class enough to come from backgrounds and fields that not only paid poverty-level wages (not even salaries-earning every dime) where it was completely unreasonable to expect a salary above 40 or 50k (ever), let alone benefits such as health insurance, paid vacation or paid sick days or holidays! So, yeah, the complaining is very tiring around here. You're "only" making 9k more than a masters-level clinician? Well, that's half my historical adult salary. That's freaking incredible. You may not think that's entitlement, but it sure looks like it to me!!

To you and "Goodluckchuck", please don't make this into another ridiculous flaming thread. I (the OP) asked a simple question: what are your opinions on the "100 reasons" blog and how that relates to clinical psychology. If you don't have much (or any) to add to the topic, please don't start another pointless forum war.

People like to complain, but if that's relevant to the topic, than let them. If we all compared ourselves to the worse of the worse, than why strive for anything at all? I'm a first-generation war immigrant, my parents worked in factories making minimum wage to put me through school. Should i have been happy with a high school education? If I compared myself with kids in my home country, who couldn't even get past a 5-th grade education before they had to quit to help put food on the table, than maybe I would've been ecstatic to get a job at McDonald's. Should my family have "settled" in their low-class positions? No. I went to one of the best undergrads in the nation. My parents now own cars, houses, and shops. While every profession has its cons, there's nothing wrong with wanting the best.
Coming from "low class" doesn't make it "unreasonable to expect", it just makes it so you have to work even harder to make those expectations happen.

 

[Goodluckchuck]

I guarantee you have never actually "worked" 80 hours in one week. However, it must feel super cool to say you did! Props, mate!

 

[Goodluckchuck]

To you and "Goodluckchuck", please don't make this into another ridiculous flaming thread. I (the OP) asked a simple question: what are your opinions on the "100 reasons" blog and how that relates to clinical psychology. If you don't have much (or any) to add to the topic, please don't start another pointless forum war.

People like to complain, but if that's relevant to the topic, than let them. If we all compared ourselves to the worse of the worse, than why strive for anything at all? I'm a first-generation war immigrant, my parents worked in factories making minimum wage to put me through school. Should i have been happy with a high school education? If I compared myself with kids in my home country, who couldn't even get past a 5-th grade education before they had to quit to help put food on the table, than maybe I would've been ecstatic to get a job at McDonald's. Should my family have "settled" in their low-class positions? No. I went to one of the best undergrads in the nation. My parents now own cars, houses, and shops. While every profession has its cons, there's nothing wrong with wanting the best.
Coming from "low class" doesn't make it "unreasonable to expect", it just makes it so you have to work even harder to make those expectations happen.

I am truly sorry. But in all seriousness, I think we should continue to complain. In fact I don't think we are complaining hard enough! C'mon guys more intense complaining! How else are we going to help our profession!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Really? I mean, don't get me wrong, I got out for some happy hours and usually went out one of the weekend nights when I was in grad school, but most of the rest of the time I was working.

When I think back to grad school, I remember weeks going something like this: 20 hours practicum, 20 hours RAship, Classes + Studying 15-20 hours, Thesis/Dissertation work and other publication projects 15-20 hours. When classes were over, teaching and dissertation stuff just kind of filled in more of my time.

The people I know who did a lot of social stuff were generally not on the 5-year-plan, or were amazing at planning.

I have to say, I have much more of a social life post-graduation and post-postdoc than I did as a graduate student and as an undergraduate student!

I had a great time in undergrad, so I can't say that my time in grad school was better socially, but it truthfully was just as enjoyable for me. Then again, I took the "extended route" to graduation, so my weeks were very manageable. I likely still would've had a good time if I'd stuck with the ideal 4+1 plan, but it would've been quite a bit more hectic.

As for complaining online--I wouldn't say that it's completely unproductive, as it can at least let ideas begin forming as to what the key areas of concern are in the field (and to say that there aren't any with respect to clinical psych would be incorrect). The venting also allows students considering entering the field to see that psych isn't all sunshine and whistles. Not to make light of the topic, of course, but I think clinical psych does a pretty bad job of letting prospective students know about these things (e.g., the internship situation, the need for geographic flexibility, post-graduate requirements, the rough academic job market) so that they can make informed decisions.

Although no, the venting in and of itself isn't directly productive, although it can lead to events that might facilitate actual change (the work of MParent regarding the whole internship snafu is a great example).

As for me personally, I'm "only" a post-doc, but I'd do it again if I had the chance to go back in time.

 

[Pragma]

I guarantee you have never actually "worked" 80 hours in one week. However, it must feel super cool to say you did! Props, mate!

I am not sure if you were directing that at me or someone else, but I can tell you that I've absolutely worked 80 hour weeks. In fact, prior to graduate school, I even worked close to 100 hours per week saving for my wedding. That's what happens when you have more than one job and do things like the graveyard shift or pick up double shifts. Not sure if you have any experience with that.

During my BA I only "worked" about 30 hours a week and went to school full time. It was busy enough to account for about 80 hours I'd imagine, but it wasn't all "work"

I could say I put in a lot of 70-80 hour weeks in graduate school "working" but it is true, a good chunk of that was studying at home. I also did do a lot of additional "work" for my RAship that wasn't required, but got me more pubs and grant experience that set me apart come internship/postdoc/job interview time. If you assume that it takes about the same amount of "work" for each person to get their clinical psychology PhD, would it be reasonable to assume that the ones who do a 4+1 like i did might have heavier weeks than the people who take 6-8 years to finish?

But believe me, postdoc definitely created some 80 hour weeks or "work" for me. Thankfully, not all the time. I no longer work 80 hour weeks and don't intend to. 60 is going to be my limit

 

[Pragma]

I had a great time in undergrad, so I can't say that my time in grad school was better socially, but it truthfully was just as enjoyable for me. Then again, I took the "extended route" to graduation, so my weeks were very manageable. I likely still would've had a good time if I'd stuck with the ideal 4+1 plan, but it would've been quite a bit more hectic.

I still had time to go out with the 4+1 too, but it definitely required some planning. But being married during graduate school, I can also say that I always had someone around at home. I think erg and I had a similar experience - my wife and I both preferred fewer date nights if it meant not extending school any longer than it needed to be.

Now that I actually am making decent money, I can't imagine another whole year of school. But I very much respect the decisions of others to take longer - my classmates all took longer than I did and they seemed to have more balance in their lives. I also know that some people choose research designs that make it necessary to take longer for their thesis or dissertation, and it probably pays off in the long run for them. But I am just grateful that my mentor was so pragmatic - there are so many hoops to jump through,and for some of us, it is just great to get through them and move on to the next thing. For me, it seemed silly to extend graduate school and then by virtue extend the tenure process.

 

[cara susanna]

Really? I mean, don't get me wrong, I got out for some happy hours and usually went out one of the weekend nights when I was in grad school, but most of the rest of the time I was working.

When I think back to grad school, I remember weeks going something like this: 20 hours practicum, 20 hours RAship, Classes + Studying 15-20 hours, Thesis/Dissertation work and other publication projects 15-20 hours. When classes were over, teaching and dissertation stuff just kind of filled in more of my time.

The people I know who did a lot of social stuff were generally not on the 5-year-plan, or were amazing at planning.

I have to say, I have much more of a social life post-graduation and post-postdoc than I did as a graduate student and as an undergraduate student!

I'm doing 5 + 1. I do have to make time for a social life. Sometimes I feel guilty, but I've gotten pretty good at ignoring the guilt.

 

[Pragma]

I'm doing 5 + 1. I do have to make time for a social life. Sometimes I feel guilty, but I've gotten pretty good at ignoring the guilt.

I wouldn't feel guilty! It seems like a reasonable way to get through a strenuous program. Best wishes!

It just seemed funny to hear that you had more time than undergrad - I just look back and think about those UG days and think "wow, that was carefree!" a lot now!

 

[Psychadelic2012]

To you and "Goodluckchuck", please don't make this into another ridiculous flaming thread. I (the OP) asked a simple question: what are your opinions on the "100 reasons" blog and how that relates to clinical psychology. If you don't have much (or any) to add to the topic, please don't start another pointless forum war.

This is a discussion forum, that's what happens--topics take different turns. Anyone has a right to comment. I don't see how I'm starting a "war"? I agree with others that working for solutions is the best use of time overall. And no one has to agree with me that complaining about salary is annoying, but why not let others express that opinion without calling it "war" or "pointless" or "ridiculous". I get real tired of the salary entitlement on these boards, and you don't have to agree, but I still have a right to my perspective. I guess it was pretty dumb to think that my POV would be accepted and embraced in such a discussion!

minimum wage to put me through school. Should i have been happy with a high school education? If I compared myself with kids in my home country, who couldn't even get past a 5-th grade education before they had to quit to help put food on the table, than maybe I would've been ecstatic to get a job at McDonald's. .

I don't understand what this has to do with what I posted. Do you mean that one can still demand a financial windfall even if they came from a working class background? That wasn't my point. I'm not even talking about McDonalds or minimum wage. I'm talking about a skilled profession (one that people actually entered because they assumed, wrongly, that it paid really well--how ironic). The bottom line is that people struggle all over the place right now and a doctorate isn't and shouldn't be an automatic ticket to a massive salary. I would even go so far as to say that every single job on this earth sucks a** right now and at many points in a career and there will always be something to complain about. So maybe focusing on the money is just an easy copout? No profession is perfect, unfortunately, and I don't care who you are--there is NEVER enough money!!

 

[PHD12]

I know of a few different individuals who make a very, very good living through psychology, and quite a few more who're at the 90-100k level. However, it's generally not as straight-forward as something like medicine, which is what we always seem to compare ourselves with. Although as I've mentioned before, when I compare myself with friends who've finished doctorates in other fields, particularly in the humanities, I don't feel that I have it very bad off at all. My post-doc pays at or above (>40k) what my friends with PhD's in other fields make, and it wasn't any more difficult to secure than their post-docs (quite the opposite, actually, in some cases).

From my experience, the top 10-20% of psychologists are the ones that are earning a good living. These are the people who are very skilled, creative, flexible, have good business and marketing skills, and take calculated risks when others are more anxious and pessimistic. They also tend to go to good schools. In medicine, you will still earn 200-300K if you are mediocre or even ineffective (I've seen some pretty incompetent psychiatrists who are still earning big bucks at hospitals and VAs). However, in this field you will have to find ways to earn a good living and sometimes this means venturing into other areas that you initially did not intend to work in. For example, people who have therapy-only practices can increase their income by adding testing, forensic and consulting work. They can also gradually carve out a name for themselves and offer workshops at schools, universities, and companies. This may mean that you have to get some additional training and take some risk, but that is the only way you are going to make it in the clinical field. Because the field is completely saturated and mental health is not valued in our culture, we need to work smarter and harder to be successful in this field. For example, one very successful private practice psychologist that I know publishes books, articles, and videos on psychotherapy, and has carved out a name for herself among psychologists and the public. She is able to charge a lot because she is skilled but also knows how to market herself (in the form of books, articles in media, and videos).

I wouldn't recommend this field to others. However, now that i'm already in it, I'm going to have to figure out a way to become a top earner. There is no point in going back to graduate school and starting over.

 

[bpsydme]

It seems the general consensus is that that blog is pretty true for PhDs in general, clin psych is no exception.

I wonder mentors and PIs don't mention these to starry eyed applicants? Look around this forum and anywhere and we can see many applicants are top notched. Why are career advisors in undergrads not telling people about these things? I can't help but to feel that they know grad students are the cheap labor that makes their research happen.

 

[PHD12]

I'm not even talking about McDonalds or minimum wage. I'm talking about a skilled profession (one that people actually entered because they assumed, wrongly, that it paid really well--how ironic). The bottom line is that people struggle all over the place right now and a doctorate isn't and shouldn't be an automatic ticket to a massive salary. I would even go so far as to say that every single job on this earth sucks a** right now and at many points in a career and there will always be something to complain about. So maybe focusing on the money is just an easy copout? No profession is perfect, unfortunately, and I don't care who you are--there is NEVER enough money!!

There is a ton of HYSTERIA in the media about the economy. The unemployment rate is only 4% for people with college degrees. I have yet to meet someone with a college or graduate degree (aside from an MFT, social worker, or early career psychologists) who is struggling. The median salary for lawyers in 2011 was 120K and the unemployment rate overall is 1-2%. Keep in mind that many people who graduate from college cannot even write properly and have no study skills or life skills (those of you who were TA's in college classes at average schools understand this). One of my friends works in a managerial role for a marketing company, they are dying to hire people with solid quantitative skills but can only find 1 or 2 promising applicants out of 100. I hear such horror stories about applicants they interview, including how poor most people are at selling themselves during an interview. There are many opportunities outside of mental health and counseling. We live in a society that does not value providing services to low income people or ill people so anyone working at a social service agency or in our field is getting an abnormally low salary given level of education.

If it makes you feel better to believe that everyone in every field is suffering, go ahead and believe this. There are many opportunities outside of mental health for people who are educated and smart.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

There is a ton of HYSTERIA in the media about the economy.

If it makes you feel better to believe that everyone in every field is suffering, go ahead and believe this. There are many opportunities outside of mental health for people who are educated and smart.

Don't have much time to pay attention to media and it doesn't make me feel better. Phew, I'm kinda tired of responding to replies that imply that I'm being histrionic. I don't need to defend my reality that badly to anyone.

 

[weeblewobble]

Don't have much time to pay attention to media and it doesn't make me feel better. Phew, I'm kinda tired of responding to replies that imply that I'm being histrionic. I don't need to defend my reality that badly to anyone.

I agree with what you've had to say re: entitlement and the assumption that psych is unique regarding employment and compensation problems (if earning 80k instead of 120k is truly a problem rather than a faulty assumption, as you've implied). No hysteria or histronic traits observed

The problem with the "100 reasons" blog, as I see it, is that it seems to hit the same two basic points over and over: 1) grad school (and probably the period after grad school) is going to be really really hard in a lot ways that could be unanticipated and 2) there is no guarantee you'll get everything you're striving for at the end of it. And yeah, that's totally true, and is even more true for people who are unprepared, go into programs or fields that don't make sense for them or at all, and/or have unrealistic to delusional expectations.

But I have difficulty thinking of very many (any?) worthwhile vocations and goals that don't require a whole lot of work and no guaranteed payoff, particularly in the economy/era/etc. that we are in, but perhaps at all. Heir/ess who spends all their on philanthropy, maybe? It does sound like entitlement to me when people imply (as I feel like the blog does) that if a people puts in so much work or so much time, they deserve to receive the position and compensation that they want. That'd be nice, but that's not how the world works.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I agree with what you've had to say re: entitlement and the assumption that psych is unique regarding employment and compensation problems (if earning 80k instead of 120k is truly a problem rather than a faulty assumption, as you've implied). No hysteria or histronic traits observed

The problem with the "100 reasons" blog, as I see it, is that it seems to hit the same two basic points over and over: 1) grad school (and probably the period after grad school) is going to be really really hard in a lot ways that could be unanticipated and 2) there is no guarantee you'll get everything you're striving for at the end of it. And yeah, that's totally true, and is even more true for people who are unprepared, go into programs or fields that don't make sense for them or at all, and/or have unrealistic to delusional expectations.

But I have difficulty thinking of very many (any?) worthwhile vocations and goals that don't require a whole lot of work and no guaranteed payoff, particularly in the economy/era/etc. that we are in, but perhaps at all. Heir/ess who spends all their on philanthropy, maybe? It does sound like entitlement to me when people imply (as I feel like the blog does) that if a people puts in so much work or so much time, they deserve to receive the position and compensation that they want. That'd be nice, but that's not how the world works.

I think that's the idea that upsets so many people in psychology particularly--the idea that most have worked very hard for a substantial portion of time, and yet even after all that, nothing is guaranteed (at least not in comparison to our colleagues in medicine, which is the group of peers with whom we most often compare ourselves for a variety of reasons). Or perhaps not even guaranteed, but that it can be difficult to find a job opening to begin with, given particular sets of relocation restrictions.

I don't at all think psych is unique in this regard (re: difficulty finding positions in various markets/areas). But at the same time, it becomes somewhat more unique when we compare it to other fields for which comparable amounts of time/training are required. Then again, no one ever said that more schooling necessarily = better occupational outcomes (which is an idea being pushed and pushed and pushed in schools currently, and one with which I have my own person misgivings).

At the same time, I feel like the idea of mental health "not being valued" (at least with respect to assessment and therapy vs. medication), which I would agree is likely one of the reasons psychologists aren't in greater demand, is something we can fix. We've historically done a horrible job of convincing both the public and those in positions of influence (e.g., politicians, insurance panels, hospital administrators) that we're worth the money and jobs we think we deserve. I was only half-joking when I mentioned in another thread that for all the Cymbalta ads I've come across, I've yet to see one about therapy, or about promoting and educating regarding our profession (think something along the lines of all those realtor commercials).

Heck, think of chiropracty--they've got their own share of issues, but they seem to be doing ok. Even if shut out of some insurance reimbursement setups, they still bring people in the door who're quite willing to pay their rates. Why? I would imagine because, in part, they've done a good job convincing the public that what they do helps, rather than simply assuming people will spontaneously recognize the values of their services (which is what I feel psychology had done in the past).

 

[Member6523]

Does anyone actually know of a PhD grad living this horror story people keep predicting (i.e. graduating and finding no job except a $30k position in Alaska)? Personally, all of the people I know who finished with their PhDs are earning decent livings in areas they generally want to live. No, their lives aren't perfect and they aren't living like rock stars, but it seems like they are doing okay and are pretty happy with their lives. Even on this board, many of our grads (Pragma, Erg, AcronymAllergy) turned out okay. The only one I can think of who is pretty dissatisfied is Doctor Eliza, but she's young enough to turn it around and I'm sure she will. So some of this pessimism seems to stem from anxiety and from people who made it looking back and thinking 'holy **** that was a lot of work."

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Heck, think of chiropracty--they've got their own share of issues, but they seem to be doing ok. Even if shut out of some insurance reimbursement setups, they still bring people in the door who're quite willing to pay their rates. Why? I would imagine because, in part, they've done a good job convincing the public that what they do helps, rather than simply assuming people will spontaneously recognize the values of their services (which is what I feel psychology had done in the past).

Chiropractors, as a profession, are highly committed to teaching their members how to market their businesses. So much of their training involves that type of education. Not sure psychologists would believe their tactics are wholly ethical (ie, bill for as much as humanly possible and have the patient come in as much as you can convince them to), but there are definitely admirable traits there.

 

[bpsydme]

Does anyone actually know of a PhD grad living this horror story people keep predicting (i.e. graduating and finding no job except a $30k position in Alaska)? Personally, all of the people I know who finished with their PhDs are earning decent livings in areas they generally want to live. No, their lives aren't perfect and they aren't living like rock stars, but it seems like they are doing okay and are pretty happy with their lives. Even on this board, many of our grads (Pragma, Erg, AcronymAllergy) turned out okay. The only one I can think of who is pretty dissatisfied is Doctor Eliza, but she's young enough to turn it around and I'm sure she will. So some of this pessimism seems to stem from anxiety and from people who made it looking back and thinking 'holy **** that was a lot of work."

I think this is the essence of my concern as well.
Also, "misery loves company," when you're happy with your job, feel like your work has paid off, and is overall satisfied with life, you're much less likely to sit at a computer, read random people write about random things, and complain about your profession.
As I mentioned, of the ONE neuropsych I spoke to, she said that of the people she knows who graduated from Clin Psych programs (many are PsyD in clinical practice), no one has had a hard time finding a job.

If you go into MSW or masters in couseling job forums, most of what you'll see is "opportunities are limited without a PhD." I googled counseling masters and one of the first hit was titled " a masters in counseling is not enough". So while PhDs are saying masters are encroaching to their territory, masters are saying PhDs are taking all the jobs.