15 year old in India performs surgery under the supervision of 2 doctors!!!???!!

[gujuDoc]

geez... you REALLY need to shadow some more physicians in the US. I think it is really naive of you to think that US physicians are the best. I've heard many cracks from doctors in england making fun of the competency of US residents they get their on electives....... There is a reason medical schools everywhere are being encouraged to undergo huge curricula reforms... there is a growing recognition that the way doctors are trained in the USA IS NOT THE BEST...thus the reason the push for curriculum changes.

I never said I questioned the validity of either the Canadian, UK, or other European healthcare systems.

I said I question the competency of the INDIAN DOCS IN INDIA. Not all of them are bad. That I acknowledge. However, a few years ago my father was misdiagnosed incorrectly with Thyroid disorder when he was in India. When the tests were done here the tests showed that he didn't have it.

Then when I went this time the doctor first miscorrectly diagnosed me with pharyngitis which I know I didn't have because it was just another one of my sinus congestion related bouts I get when allergies get too bad. Has happened to me here a lot.

Then, he was prescribing a combination of allergy, flu, and what in America is over the counter cold medicine and telling me that it was antibiotics for pharyngitis.

Mind you the guy had a flashlight instead of whatever the tool is that they usually have to look in your ears and down your throat.

Then on another day we went to a dentist in the same city and the dentist first and foremost didn't use gloves though she had them when doing a teeth cleaning. Then they didn't even do a proper teeth cleaning..

Finally, what pissed me off was that they built a big hospital in the same city of gujarat that didn't have a fire exit. Do you know that there was a fire the day we were leaving that made national news, it went 5 stories up and though the patients were saved by going all on the 9th floor, they didn't even have the damn sense to have a fire exit??

I'm sorry, but after going to Ahmedabad and Mumbai and these experiences that my father and I had and the bad experiences that my mom also had, I do not think Indian doctors trained in ALL indian schools are the best.

Yes the name of the one school you mentioned may be good as is IIT for engineering, however not all of them are and while I acknowledge that bad doctors and corruption exists here it is far more magnified in India.

Also, there are some schools where if you pay enough they will let you in far easier then any American school would ever let a person in. A few years ago a girl my friend knew paid a lot of money to go from here to study in India for medicine and they let her in because she was willing to pay enough money to them. She ended up coming back because she wanted to study medicine here and not get in through a back door entrance to med school.

SOME the key word being SOME schools are great in India but many are not and many don't even get the full MD. Many people get what they called MBBS and don't even practice with the full knowledge of a European, American, UK, or Canadian physician.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[gujuDoc]

The system has nothing to do with money or opportunity, only caste. A lot of the crappiest doctors in India come because of this system, because they are given med school seats whatever their grades. When I mean whatever, I mean *whatever* their grades. Rich people of the right caste can even pay for their seats. These castes are not overall more poor, nor are they the minority or underrepresented.

After 200 years of British rule, all castes were already pretty much on an equal poverty level. Affirmative action was not needed. Even if it was, its time has passed and should be scrapped for a better system involving consideration for financial and access to education issues. The current system pervades not only med school admissions but also every single government institution, leading to incompetence and corruption at all levels of the government.

In America, the URM system is not affirmative action. It is a system to make sure that the ethnic and cultural composition of doctors better represent the population at large, so if you are Hispanic, you are more likely to get a Hispanic doctor who understands your language and culture, ways of thinking etc. Here the system is implemented correctly.

/end ramble.

Thank you thank you thank you!!!!

Finally someone who understands that people PAY THEIR WAY INTO MEDICINE REGARDLESS OF GRADES AT SOME SCHOOLS IN INDIA!!! A friend of mine knows someone who's parents from here personally tried to do this for their daughter. A south indo girl's parents did this for her but she refused to do this because she wanted to go to medical school here.

 

[Auron]

Not sure about the "she probably did her residency in America. Residency is where you learn real medicine comment"

I can tell you, going to school at Mayo, that doctors from the All India Medical Institute are extremely sought after and respected here. In fact, my dad who has spent the majority of his career as a physician teaching residents in the USA has become pretty disillusioned with the quality of doctors the US produces in terms of competency (ESPECIALLY compared to european countries like the UK, or other countries such as India), considering our access to resouces.

I would say the above post is a horrible misconception, but one I have heard before. It is BEYOND HARD to get into medical school in India. Hundreds times harder than it is here. So few spots with so many bright individuals competing. I can't even imagine competing with some of the ridiculously intelligent students that country produces. I'm not saying intelligence is all it takes to be a good doctor... but it is important.

I agree w/ the other post about JHU and Mayo having alot of/seeking Dr's from All India Medical and other quality South Indian institutions.

You'll find bad doctors everywhere, but to be honest, I'm starting to feel like its more common to find a not so competent doctor in the US than it is abroad.

The competition in India would make the gunners here cry in shame.

You think 5000 applicants for 150 seats is competitive?

try 25,000 for 150 seats.

Then include all the hoops these grauduates have to go through to work in the US. Oh, and try studying in that blistering heat day and night and you'll see how tough it really is. I've been there and done it.

Most people here can't even begin to comprehend what it takes to get in over their. After experiencing it myself, I feel so happy and motivated to be in America

 

[maestro1625]

The competition in India would make the gunners here cry in shame.

You think 5000 applicants for 150 seats is competitive?

try 25,000 for 150 seats.

Then include all the hoops these grauduates have to go through to work in the US. Oh, and try studying in that blistering heat day and night and you'll see how tough it really is. I've been there and done it.

Most people here can't even begin to comprehend what it takes to get in over their. After experiencing it myself, I feel so happy and motivated to be in America

of course this completely ignores the Indian schools that one can easily buy his or her way in.

one of my friends had her parents push her to one of said schools... only a 28 ACT out of HS, but the $$$ was right.

 

[Auron]

of course this completely ignores the Indian schools that one can easily buy his or her way in.

one of my friends had her parents push her to one of said schools... only a 28 ACT out of HS, but the $$$ was right.

This just supports my point about how competitive it is. It's hard enough to get in regular decision, then when you let in the rich who simply have the money you're lowering the chances of admission even further for merit students.

I know someone who payed a 45 lakh "donation" ($90,000) up front. Preety typical.

 

[SIREN]

I just saw this online today and couldn't believe my eyes. A boy of 15 performed a C-section with his doctor parents at his side. The reason why, his father wanted him to get in the Guiness World Book of Records as the world's youngest surgeon. WTF!!!! That might not even happen because the father might now face an inquiry and get his liscense revoked.

Here's the link to the article if you want to read it.

http://news.aol.com/topnews/article...d-by-teen-sparks-outrage/20070621132109990001

I hope his parents think it was worth it. I wonder if the mother knew that this kid was 15? Regardless, it was very obnoxious to have their son perform any kind of surgery and then record it. Unfortunately, they will probably get a slap on the wrist, and cling to their title until next year when a 13 year old removes a malignant tumor.

 

[badasshairday]

The surgery was a success. Let us just get over it now. Obviously the dad was such a good doctor he was able to direct his 15 year old so well that it worked out.

 

[proclivity]

I just saw this online today and couldn't believe my eyes. A boy of 15 performed a C-section with his doctor parents at his side. The reason why, his father wanted him to get in the Guiness World Book of Records as the world's youngest surgeon. WTF!!!! That might not even happen because the father might now face an inquiry and get his liscense revoked.

Here's the link to the article if you want to read it.

http://news.aol.com/topnews/article...d-by-teen-sparks-outrage/20070621132109990001

That dude is going to lose his license and i am going to laugh when he does.

 

[Blanket]

I am just wondering about this. I took a World History course last quarter, and I learned about the caste system in India. Why would the noble caste want to be doctors anyway? Didn't they move up the caste because of doing good deeds? Many doctors are sinners in the past lives that are seeking ways to redeem themselves: save lives to pay back their past wrong doings. If you guys are already on the top for being good citizens, why do you guys also try to redeem yourselves. You see the conflict. Get it? Which means that the caste system itself is fake. But who cares. Everyone is born equal. Tell your president to get rid of the caste now!

Dude...seriously...you don't know what you are talking about. (I am assuming you are just trying to push some buttons..and that's why you are making such ignorant statements).

Getting into a medical school in India is a lot tougher than here (this is a FACT). I am a MS1 and can gurantee you that if I was in India i would not have made it. Moreover, I am in the top 1/2 of my class so that's more than half of my class that would not have been able to get into a school in India.

About this kid who did the surgery...of course it's wrong. But not wrong enough to make GENERALIZED comments about the medical schools (or about anything else...like caste or how indian parents influence their kids' career choices).

While we are making general comments.....here is one, the FMGs from India are smarter than majority of MDs from US, hands down. FMGs might speak in broken English but as I have seen, they flat out know more than US MDs.

 

[singkri]

According to the papers, the doctor supposedly 'screened' the video of his son performing the operation in a meeting of some local wing of the Indian Medical Association.

And for people who are condemning Indian doctors en masse- there is not a single doctor who has come forward to support this dumb, stupid act. So they all do know that this was grossly wrong! So much for all the people on this thread gunning down Indian doctors about having no morals.

It was a heinous crime and the doctor and his wife will soon have their license stripped. And I think the surgery was successful.

Yes, I do agree that students get into Indian Medical schools unfairly based on caste reservations, donations, recommendations but this is only in the private schools. Though the top medical schools like AIIMS, the Armed Forces Medical College and the likes have reservations, their seats are limited + calibre of candidates is much, much, much higher. Compare MCAT with this:

A two stage multiple choice exam format with top schools have their own separate standard exams. For eg, AIIMS takes in 50 students in their first year MBBS as opposed to the l00,000 or more who take the exam. Its definitely more competitive in India- even with reservation students who get into the 'reserved' seats are 'almost' the best in most cases.

And come on, can I start giving examples of medical negligence and malpractice in the States? does that mean that the entire system is at fault here? So, I think it would do good to everyone not to generalize.

Every doctor kills a few people, but very few do it with harmful malicious intent. The majority of them try their level best to save a patient and do the best they can do for him, irrespective of the doctor's ethnicity, race, religion and so on. So come on, grow up and learn to look beyond stereotypes and generalizations.

 

[michigator04]

That was quick!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19440884/

 

[sehnsucht]

That was quick!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19440884/

Not quick enough Someone could have gotten seriously hurt. When I first read the papers, I really thought what the parents and kid did was a joke at first but, no, it really was as ******ed as I thought. Unbelievable. I wonder if the dad thought - even for a second - if what he was doing had "MALPRACTICE" written all over it....

 

[gotmeds?]

Then when I went this time the doctor first miscorrectly diagnosed me with pharyngitis which I know I didn't have because it was just another one of my sinus congestion related bouts I get when allergies get too bad. Has happened to me here a lot.

Maybe he just misunderestimated the severity of your illness.

 

[Kriyaban]

A Typical Jew

This was surprisingly the only thing I was offended by in this india bashing thread. If you don't like jews, maybe med school's not for you.

 

[Dr. Josh]

This was surprisingly the only thing I was offended by in this india bashing thread. If you don't like jews, maybe med school's not for you.

yea, exactly and his comment was directed at me and nothing I said was Jewish and I'm NOT Jewish.

 

[Vizsla]

This was surprisingly the only thing I was offended by in this india bashing thread.

why is that surprising? are you indian?

 

[imable24]

If you don't like jews, maybe med school's not for you.

If you don't like jews, indians, asians, hispanics, blacks, whites, muslims-then you shouldn't be a doctor.

 

[voirlesetoiles]

Maybe he just misunderestimated the severity of your illness.

lol. It's all just a miscorrect misunderestimation.

 

[powerful_squib]

This surgery that was preformed wasn't his first surgery either. Now, I wonder whether or not any other patients of the doctor will sue because of this, since he has done others.

As for the bashing on this thread, I really didn't create the thread for it. It just shows how prejudice people really are, in front of a computer screen anyways.

 

[bigman43]

i performed a surgical procedure unassisteded with my barehands when i was like 5. big deal. its formally referred to as "nasal stone extraction"
this indian kid isnt that special.















(picking boogers)

 

[Kthanksbye]

What really doesn't make sense is that no record book will publish something like that. Guinness Book is not about to create a competition for the youngest surgeon. It would encourage bad medicine. The dad should have been able to find that out before hand. In whatever country, whether the kid was able to do the operation is irrelevant. He doesn't have a license, and, while this may be a brash generalization, I'll go out on a limb and say that practicing without a license is probably illegal in pretty much all countries, unless you're a new age practitioner, then, hey, go for it.

 

[KifsterDDS]

I hate to say it, but most surgeries are conceptually uncomplicated.

Just today, for example, I performed in my office a procedure called a "surgical exposure" of an impacted canine and "placement of traction device". Basically, it's a surgical procedure that, when performed properly, allows an orthodontist to pull down into the dental arch a canine that would otherwise remain stuck way up (or way down, depending on the upper or lower jaw) in the bone.

Conceptually, the procedure is easy enough for a chimpanzee to perform: an incision in the gingiva, elevation of a full-thickness mucoperiosteal flap, removal of some bone surrounding the tooth. That's the surgical exposure.

And the "placement of a traction device"? Isolate the tooth with gauze, etch it with acid and bond the bracket/chain device to it. Make a small incision near the orthodontic wire, then make a tunnel under the periostium from your exposed tooth to your second incision near the orthodontic wire, pull the chain through, and you're pretty-much done.

Finally, a few resorbable sutures to close up the soft tissue.

Easy as pie.

(And the fee for this procedure, by the way? $560 for the surgical exposure, and $325 for attaching the bracket. $885 for 20 minutes worth of work that I could train any one of my assistants to perform.)

And a C-section? Probably not a heck of a lot more complicated.

Most surgeries, i.e. the ones where you don't have to dodge a lot of important anatomy (i.e. nerves and blood vessels), are easy to perform in terms of technique.

So why don't we have mid-levels performing surgery autonomously? Because there's more to surgery than simply "getting the job done". As a dentist, I can assure you I could successfully remove a tumor from someone's brain. The problem is that I'd probably damage a heck of a lot of things along the way. A doctor trained in his/her respective field is not only trained to "get the job done", but to get it done with as little impact on the rest of the body as possible.

Moreover, you need someone who is highly trained to 1. diagnose the need for the surgery and 2. to competently manage the follow-up and any complications (medical and surgical in nature).

My point? I am totally unimpressed by this story about the 15 year-old Indian boy performing the c-section. What would impress me is if he diagnosed the need for it, and successfully managed her post-op complications (if god forbid she had any).

 

[works151]

As for the bashing on this thread, I really didn't create the thread for it. It just shows how prejudice people really are, in front of a computer screen anyways.

Sad, but true. Glad someone said it

 

[gujuDoc]

I hate to say it, but most surgeries are conceptually uncomplicated.

Just today, for example, I performed in my office a procedure called a "surgical exposure" of an impacted canine and "placement of traction device". Basically, it's a surgical procedure that, when performed properly, allows an orthodontist to pull down into the dental arch a canine that would otherwise remain stuck way up (or way down, depending on the upper or lower jaw) in the bone.

Conceptually, the procedure is easy enough for a chimpanzee to perform: an incision in the gingiva, elevation of a full-thickness mucoperiosteal flap, removal of some bone surrounding the tooth. That's the surgical exposure.

And the "placement of a traction device"? Isolate the tooth with gauze, etch it with acid and bond the bracket/chain device to it. Make a small incision near the orthodontic wire, then make a tunnel under the periostium from your exposed tooth to your second incision near the orthodontic wire, pull the chain through, and you're pretty-much done.

Finally, a few resorbable sutures to close up the soft tissue.

Easy as pie.

(And the fee for this procedure, by the way? $560 for the surgical exposure, and $325 for attaching the bracket. $885 for 20 minutes worth of work that I could train any one of my assistants to perform.)

And a C-section? Probably not a heck of a lot more complicated.

Most surgeries, i.e. the ones where you don't have to dodge a lot of important anatomy (i.e. nerves and blood vessels), are easy to perform in terms of technique.

So why don't we have mid-levels performing surgery autonomously? Because there's more to surgery than simply "getting the job done". As a dentist, I can assure you I could successfully remove a tumor from someone's brain. The problem is that I'd probably damage a heck of a lot of things along the way. A doctor trained in his/her respective field is not only trained to "get the job done", but to get it done with as little impact on the rest of the body as possible.

Moreover, you need someone who is highly trained to 1. diagnose the need for the surgery and 2. to competently manage the follow-up and any complications (medical and surgical in nature).

My point? I am totally unimpressed by this story about the 15 year-old Indian boy performing the c-section. What would impress me is if he diagnosed the need for it, and successfully managed her post-op complications (if god forbid she had any).

This is a good post. I was reading the book "Another day in the Frontal Lobe" by a Dr. Firlik. I forget the author's first name, but she made the same points you have made in one of her beginning chapters when she describes the job of a neurosurgeon. She said in her book that a neurosurgeon is only part mechanic. I forget the other word she used to describe the other half of being a surgeon but she echoed every point that you mentioned here in very similar words.

Like I said, this guy isn't impressive unless he's a fully trained physician. To call your self a surgeon you have to be fully certified as a surgeon who has trained through med school and residency and been fully board certified or whatever the similar certifications are in India.

And anyhow two other people beat him in the impressive category when a 13 year old Indian boy got into med school in the states and then when that Korean boy got in at age 12.