$180,000 NP Salary starting?!?

[TheIllusionist]

Lol yawl should checkout what some of your local plumbers and electricians, many of whom barely graduated high school, make...

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[QueenJames]

Happy Nurse Practitioner week everyone

Yupp! Thanks for those awesome NPs!

Like the one seeing my preceptor's patients and doubling his income this year.

It's ok that you didn't do a knee exam on a patient who actually had knee pain for a few months (you only tested his ROM by flexing and extending... That's it)... No anterior drawer or anything else... But hey...

We can't all think we can replace physicians because of our online program that throws out degrees like hotcakes!

Somebody's gotta do it!

Happy NP week!

 

[qwerty89]

I definitely took a life time earnings cut by choosing to go to medical school to be a primary care doctor.

My inbox and voicemail are full of offers ranging from $50-80/hr for 48 hr/wk guaranteed hours, +paid housing, travel, and car rental for 3 month contracts. (It is really painful, since right now I live in a shoebox, eat ramen, and can't afford to fix my car. On bad days, it definitely raises the temptation to bail on this whole med school nonsense!)

And that is for an RN, not an NP. Admittedly, an RN with a bunch of certs and specialist OR experience, but still... I can see how NPs could be pulling up near 200k, if they play their cards right... either doing travel assignments or else working their way into a practice where they share in the receipts, as in the example above.

50-80/hr vs medical school is no contest. Med school hands down. At least as a radiology resident I get contrast coverage moonlighting for 50/hr. Some places offer up to 75/hr. Attendings in academics can work extra weekend 8 hr shifts for approx 225ish/hr.

 

[Promethean]

50-80/hr vs medical school is no contest. Med school hands down. At least as a radiology resident I get contrast coverage moonlighting for 50/hr. Some places offer up to 75/hr. Attendings in academics can work extra weekend 8 hr shifts for approx 225ish/hr.

You aren't counting in the cost of servicing $200k of debt, the opportunity cost of med school/residency, and that I said, pretty clearly, primary care.

$50-80/hr with guaranteed overtime approaches $120 - $180k/yr, not counting the various housing/food/travel allowances that don't always translate directly into reportable income. I needed no additional education to see that kind of income, just a willingness to travel a little and work 50 hours a week doing something that I am already good at.

4 years of near zero income plus tuition/cost of attendance debt would put me at -$1Mil down by graduation from a traditional medical school program. I trimmed that a little by doing a 3 year primary care focused program. 3 years of residency $50k/yr adds another ~300k to the opportunity cost. And recall that there are interest expenses on the loans that mean that by the time they are paid, they may be 2-3x what was originally borrowed. Also consider the lost returns on investments of the income foregone, and it is easy to get to -$2 Million before I start practicing. Even if I hustle like cabinbuilder for 20 years, I will only be beginning to break even on what I could have earned as a travel OR RN if I'd hustled to the same degree in that position.

It is only "no contest" if you aren't actually doing all the math and accounting accurately.

If I were 22, you'd be right. But, I also wouldn't have had the RN experience needed to command the wages that I could be earning at this point. As a mid-career professional with extremely specialized and in-demand skills, my prospects outside of medicine were very different than they were when I was 22.

 

[BabyHero]

Wanna know something even more hilarious? Anti-physician laws like the Stark law don't apply to nurses. So not only can NPs make just about as much as physicians with pathetically inferior training and have similar scope of practice, but they can own specialty hospitals and other facilities that physicians are barred from owning by law. In other words, in states where NPs have full independent practice rights (soon to be all states), the ****ty online nursing degree gives you far more freedom of action in the medical field than the MD does.

It's infuriating. Something needs to be done about this nonsense. The more I learn about how badly doctors are being taken advantage of without so much as a peep of resistance, the more contempt I'm starting to have for my own future profession.

It is amazing this law has been around for so long. It really demonstrates how well hospitals and medical organizations lobby so much better than physicians. Physicians and hospitals are not on the same team in regards to this type of stuff.

 

[BabyHero]

I was browsing a hospital jobs board recently and they started nurse anesthetists with cardiac experience of at least one year at $200,000 plus benefits. WTF?

 

[Psai]

I was browsing a hospital jobs board recently and they started nurse anesthetists with cardiac experience of at least one year at $200,000 plus benefits. WTF?

That's because it doesn't matter who is doing the billing, the fee for anesthesia is the same for doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, it's not what you know but what people are willing to pay you. There are a lot of unscrupulous people who use this to their advantage and steal the lion's share of the billing and pay out a pittance to those earning it. This includes proceduralists, hospitals and anesthesia management companies. Unfortunately, insurance companies are short-sighteded and refuse to negotiate with private groups while paying much more per unit to large groups; this has led to the demise of private practice and the rise of large management companies vs employed positions.

 

[Football Pig]

That's because it doesn't matter who is doing the billing, the fee for anesthesia is the same for doctors and nurses. Unfortunately, it's not what you know but what people are willing to pay you. There are a lot of unscrupulous people who use this to their advantage and steal the lion's share of the billing and pay out a pittance to those earning it. This includes proceduralists, hospitals and anesthesia management companies. Unfortunately, insurance companies are short-sighteded and refuse to negotiate with private groups while paying much more per unit to large groups; this has led to the demise of private practice and the rise of large management companies vs employed positions.

I would have liked to reply, but the idiots banned me. Hard to have a discussion when you get banned for having a different perspective.

 

[percyeye]

On the pharmacy board they just announced you can get a PharmD/NP degree while going to pharmacy school.

 

[NYCdude]

Why the **** would anyone pay an NP 180k when PCP's make 200-220?

That just doesn't even make financial sense.

 

[Psai]

On the pharmacy board they just announced you can get a PharmD/NP degree while going to pharmacy school.

Lol you can get an np degree in less than a year while sitting on your ass at home. The pharmacy job market must have gotten even worse if that's what they're peddling these days.

 

[deleted128562]

Why the **** would anyone pay an NP 180k when PCP's make 200-220?

That just doesn't even make financial sense.

Apples to oranges. A primary care NP isn't going to make 180K. We're talking subspecialty clinics, anesthesia, etc where the MD/DO is probably making a lot more. At least for now.

Look, it's still ridiculous and I get really fired up about midlevels and what we've allowed them to do to our field. But at the same time I've gotta kind of tip my hat to the CRNA who did 2 years of post-grad education compared to my 9, and is going to make almost as much money as me with probably a better schedule. System is what it is and I can hardly fault someone for being smarter than I was.

 

[deleted128562]

Lol you can get an np degree in less than a year while sitting on your ass at home. The pharmacy job market must have gotten even worse if that's what they're peddling these days.

No you just don't get it. The PharmD/NP is the ultimate in patient care. You get all of the combined knowledge of an MD and a PharmD, with all the compassion and caring of an NP. Duh.

 

[Heart of Lioness]

I live in an underserved area whete 3 NPs own practices. One is a psych NP. She is only one of two psych providers who take medicaid, thus very ill patients. She contributes to the community and MDs and hospitals refer to her. She is well-respected, did not go to an online school, and respected by physician colleagues. Why shouldn't she make a good salary? She keeps hundreds of mentally ill stable instead of in hospitals or ERs.

 

[NicMouse64]

I live in an underserved area whete 3 NPs own practices. One is a psych NP. She is only one of two psych providers who take medicaid, thus very ill patients. She contributes to the community and MDs and hospitals refer to her. She is well-respected, did not go to an online school, and respected by physician colleagues. Why shouldn't she make a good salary? She keeps hundreds of mentally ill stable instead of in hospitals or ERs.

Your anecdote is just that: a personal experience. There is nothing wrong with what she does. That doesn't mean the trend towards provider is good for patients.

Despite the necrobump: the crux of the question is: what is the logic behind churning out "providers" with at least 5 less years of training (can be up to 8 less years in specialties such as cardiology), has less quality control (no MCAT, GPA, crapshoot process for admissions, etc.) of applicants, and less quality of training (in MD school we see the worst of the worst and have close oversight in the clinical setting for thousands of hours)? The answer seems to be that: things in the family practice setting aren't that complicated or we learn useless **** in medical school.

My counter personal anecdote is I was volunteering in a free clinic yesterday. I am 2.5 months into m1. I literally learned some of these things 2 weeks ago, never saw a patient with these signs. I saw a patient and did a full H+P and the PA clinician I was working with missed cranial nerve deficiencies and unilateral weakness on neuro exam. When I booted to our attending he saw the patient and explained that the patient likely had a TIA. I didn't need the experience of seeing many patients to figure out which lobe was likely affected or that a TIA was the most likely cause of the symptoms. I knew the relevant pathology and could think critically about what was being presented to me.

And I'm a below average medical student. My peers are overall just incredibly smart and caring people.

 

[thegreengreatdragon]

Why would you necrobump a thread on a topic that like half of the threads on this forum already revolve around

 

[Heart of Lioness]

Your anecdote is just that: a personal experience. There is nothing wrong with what she does. That doesn't mean the trend towards provider is good for patients.

Despite the necrobump: the crux of the question is: what is the logic behind churning out "providers" with at least 5 less years of training (can be up to 8 less years in specialties such as cardiology), has less quality control (no MCAT, GPA, crapshoot process for admissions, etc.) of applicants, and less quality of training (in MD school we see the worst of the worst and have close oversight in the clinical setting for thousands of hours)? The answer seems to be that: things in the family practice setting aren't that complicated or we learn useless **** in medical school.

My counter personal anecdote is I was volunteering in a free clinic yesterday. I am 2.5 months into m1. I literally learned some of these things 2 weeks ago, never saw a patient with these signs. I saw a patient and did a full H+P and the PA clinician I was working with missed cranial nerve deficiencies and unilateral weakness on neuro exam. When I booted to our attending he saw the patient and explained that the patient likely had a TIA. I didn't need the experience of seeing many patients to figure out which lobe was likely affected or that a TIA was the most likely cause of the symptoms. I knew the relevant pathology and could think critically about what was being presented to me.

And I'm a below average medical student. My peers are overall just incredibly smart and caring people.

Soooo... your argument is that the trend toward provider is not good but don't have much knowledge about the background of most NPs. They do take GREs, they are competitive, and as for this one I referred to she has been practicing for 15 years, longer than any resident. She has picked up on autoimmune psychosis and many medical issues before the patient's MD. Just saying. Sounds pretty closed-minded.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Soooo... your argument is that the trend toward provider is not good but don't have much knowledge about the background of most NPs. They do take GREs, they are competitive, and as for this one I referred to she has been practicing for 15 years, longer than any resident. She has picked up on autoimmune psychosis and many medical issues before the patient's MD. Just saying. Sounds pretty closed-minded.

Necrobumps this thread, joined today.... yep definitely checks out.

:troll:

 

[Heart of Lioness]

Necrobumps this thread, joined today.... yep definitely checks out.

:troll:

So if I point out facts about your post, I am a troll? Just trying to understand the logic.

 

[NicMouse64]

So if I point out facts about your post, I am a troll? Just trying to understand the logic.

I see you are new here. People who post inflammatory posts with no post history and have only 5 messages is the typical pattern of a troll. There's really no point in arguing. This argument has been had before. It ends up the same.

If you want to be a doctor go to medical school, take step 1, 2, and 3, do a residency in the specialty of your choosing.

/end thread.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So if I point out facts about your post, I am a troll? Just trying to understand the logic.

1. I'm not the poster you quoted
2. You didn't quote facts, you cited anecdote.
3. You necrobumped an old thread to argue about NPs
4. the GRE is the most worthless exam ever and I don't know why you cited it.
5. Many NP programs will take anyone that can pay the tuition
6. Many are online
7. All of them have terrible clinical exposure. Many of them less than a medical student 5 months into rotations
8. The curriculum is not standardized and a number of them do not go into anymore depth into pathophysiology than a standard BSN program.
9. Many programs are largely filled with "nursing theory" courses that do not teach one how to practice medicine.
10. No one is saying midlevels don't have a place, their place just isn't at the same level as a licensed physician.

If you want to be a doctor go to medical school, take step 1, 2, and 3, do a residency in the specialty of your choosing.

This.

 

[Heart of Lioness]

1. I'm not the poster you quoted
2. You didn't quote facts, you cited anecdote.
3. You necrobumped an old thread to argue about NPs
4. the GRE is the most worthless exam ever and I don't know why you cited it.
5. Many NP programs will take anyone that can pay the tuition
6. Many are online
7. All of them have terrible clinical exposure. Many of them less than a medical student 5 months into rotations
8. The curriculum is not standardized and a number of them do not go into anymore depth into pathophysiology than a standard BSN program.
9. Many programs are largely filled with "nursing theory" courses that do not teach one how to practice medicine.
10. No one is saying midlevels don't have a place, their place just isn't at the same level as a licensed physician.



This.

Many this and that. We have been around for 53 years. Online programs are new and even we are trying yo change that.

 

[Heart of Lioness]

1. I'm not the poster you quoted
2. You didn't quote facts, you cited anecdote.
3. You necrobumped an old thread to argue about NPs
4. the GRE is the most worthless exam ever and I don't know why you cited it.
5. Many NP programs will take anyone that can pay the tuition
6. Many are online
7. All of them have terrible clinical exposure. Many of them less than a medical student 5 months into rotations
8. The curriculum is not standardized and a number of them do not go into anymore depth into pathophysiology than a standard BSN program.
9. Many programs are largely filled with "nursing theory" courses that do not teach one how to practice medicine.
10. No one is saying midlevels don't have a place, their place just isn't at the same level as a licensed physician.



This.

Your argument does not apply to most of us.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Your argument does not apply to most of us.

Are you trying to practice medicine at the level of a physician?

 

[NicMouse64]

Are you trying to practice medicine at the level of a physician?

 

[puahate]

Scary times out here

 

[QueenJames]

What some idiots don't know that NPs for the most part are not pursuing primary care. IF they are, they are practicing in rural areas where physicians do not want to.

They do see less patients but it is usually as an extension of care.

Physicians being replaced by NPs? lol ok.

The FM docs I have talked to are not afraid because simply, those 3 years of residency where you saw the sickest of the sick and applied yourself... that means more than some fluff online program.

I say let them get their independence and let their poor education kill somebody or hurt somebody.

Patients want to see their PHYSICIAN. Not their "provider".

FWIW my physician always made it clear that the previous NP/PA the patient had seen was a "healthcare provider" or a "midlevel"... not a physician and patients knew that... and HENCE... they "wanted to actually come see the real doctor."

We need to work on marketing.

That's the only **** that the nursing lobbyists have on us.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

IF they are, they are practicing in rural areas where physicians do not want to.

And yet only ~20% of NPs practice in rural areas, making up only a quarter of rural providers.

 

[762513]

Thank god there’s a SDN post attacking NP’s active again. Seems to be on the schedule about every 2-3 months or so.

 

[NecFasc92]

I live in an underserved area whete 3 NPs own practices. One is a psych NP. She is only one of two psych providers who take medicaid, thus very ill patients. She contributes to the community and MDs and hospitals refer to her. She is well-respected, did not go to an online school, and respected by physician colleagues. Why shouldn't she make a good salary? She keeps hundreds of mentally ill stable instead of in hospitals or ERs.

nps aren't colleagues of physicians.

 

[KoolKeith]

I don’t like bashing anybody, however after spending a couple days this week working with an NP I noticed some very apparent differences in quality of care between her and the physicians at the practice. There was a wtf moment in almost every patient we saw together. Pharm knowledge was exceptionally poor. Lots of strange choices like diltiazem for hypertensive diabetics rather than an acei or arb, switching a patient with hx of myopathy from medium dose Pravachol to high dose Crestor, trying to do a 1 mg/kg weight based treatment dose of lovenox using a patient’s BMI of 25 “kg” that she was going to round to 30mg.

All the while she made digs about the docs who were out of the office this week and bragged that after seeing her in action I wouldn’t want to go back to med school. Needless to say, that didn’t happen


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[NecFasc92]

I don’t like bashing anybody, however after spending a couple days this week working with an NP I noticed some very apparent differences in quality of care between her and the physicians at the practice. There was a wtf moment in almost every patient we saw together. Pharm knowledge was exceptionally poor. Lots of strange choices like diltiazem for hypertensive diabetics rather than an acei or arb, switching a patient with hx of myopathy from medium dose Pravachol to high dose Crestor, trying to do a 1 mg/kg weight based treatment dose of lovenox using a patient’s BMI of 25 “kg” that she was going to round to 30mg.

All the while she made digs about the docs who were out of the office this week and bragged that after seeing her in action I wouldn’t want to go back to med school. Needless to say, that didn’t happen


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Why does your school allow this? I would of contacted them the moment I found out I was to be pawned off to someone who isn’t a physician.

Physicians need to teach physicians medicine. Period.

 

[Goro]

Necrobumps this thread, joined today.... yep definitely checks out.

:troll:

One more datapoint:
Student Doctor Network - Error
This member limits who may view their full profile.

 

[Goro]

nps aren't colleagues of physicians.

This is like saying blocking backs aren't colleagues of QBs. Medicine is a team sport now.

 

[nimbus]

Considering the work that they do, 180k is appropriate. If physicians argue that they deserve less, they are devaluing their own work since our work largely overlaps theirs. If anything, we should be arguing that NPs deserve more.

In the end, it is the value that we bring to the patients. Do we really want to race to the bottom?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

This is like saying blocking backs aren't colleagues of QBs. Medicine is a team sport now.

I think he was referring to the small but militant and vocal lobby of NPs that wants complete independence and to be the head coach while retiring the physician, not NPs in general. Could be wrong though.

 

[aafisahar]

Lol yawl should checkout what some of your local plumbers and electricians, many of whom barely graduated high school, make...

50-60k for moving ****. No one on this forum has the stomach to do plumbing for more than a couple years at the most. Unless you are an outlier, you aren't making great money. Plumbers aren't sending their kids to private schools or living in

70-80k for electrician, also wrecks your back, there are slowdowns (eg winter, construction slowdowns). Decent money, but not fancy car, big house, private school money.

Every doctor I know sends their kids to private school k-12, pays their kids college fees (they basically never stop bitching about this), drives a newer car (eg <5 years old), and lives in the fancy part of town.

 

[KoolKeith]

Why does your school allow this? I would of contacted them the moment I found out I was to be pawned off to someone who isn’t a physician.

Physicians need to teach physicians medicine. Period.

I tend to agree. I usually do work with the two docs but one was out of town and the other had a family emergency this week. I’m only two months in so figured I could learn something working with the NP for a couple days and I did, even if some of it was what not to do.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[762513]

I think he was referring to the small but militant and vocal lobby of NPs that wants complete independence and to be the head coach while retiring the physician, not NPs in general. Could be wrong though.

Nah. This person was just being a jerk. OckhamsRazor my dude.

 

[Goro]

50-60k for moving ****. No one on this forum has the stomach to do plumbing for more than a couple years at the most. Unless you are an outlier, you aren't making great money. Plumbers aren't sending their kids to private schools or living in

70-80k for electrician, also wrecks your back, there are slowdowns (eg winter, construction slowdowns). Decent money, but not fancy car, big house, private school money.

Every doctor I know sends their kids to private school k-12, pays their kids college fees (they basically never stop bitching about this), drives a newer car (eg <5 years old), and lives in the fancy part of town.

Plumbers where I live make > $65/hour.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Nah. This person was just being a jerk. OckhamsRazor my dude.

I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Stagg737]

Many this and that. We have been around for 53 years. Online programs are new and even we are trying yo change that.

Well with the rate that online NP programs with almost no pre-requisite requirements are popping up I'd say your lobby is doing a fantastic job of doing just the opposite of what you're claiming. Most NP programs no longer require any clinical experience and almost no standardization in their clinical experience and many of the individuals graduating from these programs are ignorantly clamoring for independent practice rights. No offense, but if you're an old-school NP, you're now the minority.

This is like saying blocking backs aren't colleagues of QBs. Medicine is a team sport now.

In many ways they're not, just like the vast majority of NPs don't have the foundational knowledge or training to really interact with physicians on the level of "colleagues". You're right that medicine is becoming a team sport, too bad the people with the knowledge to be captains and coaches are being tossed aside by the screams of the bench.

Considering the work that they do, 180k is appropriate. If physicians argue that they deserve less, they are devaluing their own work since our work largely overlaps theirs. If anything, we should be arguing that NPs deserve more.

In the end, it is the value that we bring to the patients. Do we really want to race to the bottom?

Eh, maybe? If they're working independently and seeing patients like physicians then sure (ignoring the fact that they shouldn't have those practice rights). If they're just acting as physician extenders? Nah. Especially when pharmacists aren't making 6 figures and PT/OTs are making 75k if they're lucky. Just my opinion though.

50-60k for moving ****. No one on this forum has the stomach to do plumbing for more than a couple years at the most. Unless you are an outlier, you aren't making great money. Plumbers aren't sending their kids to private schools or living in

70-80k for electrician, also wrecks your back, there are slowdowns (eg winter, construction slowdowns). Decent money, but not fancy car, big house, private school money.

Every doctor I know sends their kids to private school k-12, pays their kids college fees (they basically never stop bitching about this), drives a newer car (eg <5 years old), and lives in the fancy part of town.

Yea, but neither of those professions require the individuals to take on $200k+ in debt and not have income until their 30's. The labor workers get a massive head start. Additionally if they invest intelligently they're set. Investing $1,000/mo starting when they're 20 and retiring at 60 they'd have $1.5 million in retirement funds. Not too shabby for someone without a formal college education.

Also, the current docs can afford all that for their kids because they lived in the golden age of medicine where they were graduating with almost no school debt and pulling in 6 figures at the worst. The average graduate today will end up paying back $400k+ in loans after interest and won't see a full physician paycheck until they're 31. At the rate of tuition inflation, current debt levels, and older age at the start of their actual career, the current generation of new docs won't be able to afford what those with kids in college now can.

Plus, a lot of physicians are financial idiots and live beyond their means. The nice house, fancy cars, and private schools may look impressive but it'll come back to bite them when they're still working at 75 because they don't have enough retirement saved up.

 

[NecFasc92]

This is like saying blocking backs aren't colleagues of QBs. Medicine is a team sport now.

No, it's not. Spoken again by a clueless non-physician administator. We don't come up with "team" assessments or "team" plans or "team" treatments. Physicians come up with these based on their expertise. They don't ask nps, or nurses, or techs if their diagnosis is right or if their pharm option is the best or if they need to add or subtract from the differential. They do this by themselves, or, if need be, they consult one of their actual colleagues (ie other physicians). Because they are the physician and it's their job. Not a hard concept but it's clear you really have no idea how medicine works outside of years 1 and 2 of medical school.

 

[W19]

The more you into that thing, the more you realize it's not a team sport as people claim. When something goes wrong, no one blames the team; they all blame the doc.

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I have nothing against NPs, PAs, or midwives.

But, I don’t take their opinions too seriously nor do I want to be trained by them.

Shame on all of the docs out there training mid practitioners out there. I just got back to the OR again for my current rotation. As a medical student, I have been denied by all CRNAs for doing supervised intubations. Yet, these same people have no issue teaching the craft to EMTs. All of my supervised intubations are with DOs/MDs. Bless those gals and guys for understanding the responsibility to train the next generation of attendings.

The war is already being waged by mid practioners. Anyone that refuses to see this fact will be taken to the cleaners. I personally take the bs from these CRNAs to heart, and will refuse to train any mid practioners as an attending in the future.

 

[Goro]

No, it's not. Spoken again by a clueless non-physician administator. We don't come up with "team" assessments or "team" plans or "team" treatments. Physicians come up with these based on their expertise. They don't ask nps, or nurses, or techs if their diagnosis is right or if their pharm option is the best or if they need to add or subtract from the differential. They do this by themselves, or, if need be, they consult one of their actual colleagues (ie other physicians). Because they are the physician and it's their job. Not a hard concept but it's clear you really have no idea how medicine works outside of years 1 and 2 of medical school.

The more you into that thing, the more you realize it's not a team sport as people claim. When something goes wrong, no one blames the team; they all blame the doc.

Gotta love the smell of elitism in the morning.


If the team screws up, no one blames the kicker or the MLB, they blame the head coach or the QB. And QBs may call the plays, but it takes the team to run the ball.

I was visiting a relative recently who was in the hospital, and I was amazed how scarce the doctors were. The nurses ran that hospital. Sure the docs came up with treatment plans, no doubt about that. But no nurses and the rest of the team, no patient care, period.

And I'm NOT an administrator. I work for a living...I teach medical students.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

I thought this thread was closed for some reason.

 

[863168]

@Black Coffee 24/7 Based on anecdotes from @flightnurse2MD could have nothing to do with you being a medical student. Clinical learning for SRNAs and their relationship with their preceptors have been anecdotally comparative to horror stories. And then you hear other CRNA programs have 8 hour clinical rotations...

 

[Stagg737]

I was visiting a relative recently who was in the hospital, and I was amazed how scarce the doctors were. The nurses ran that hospital. Sure the docs came up with treatment plans, no doubt about that. But no nurses and the rest of the team, no patient care, period.

Yea, because hospitals hire the bare minimum amount of doctors possible, require them to see more patients than is reasonable, and supplement with mid-levels. When a physician has a patient load of 25 patients, how much do you actually expect to see the doc?

Of course the rest of the team is essential for the system to function. No one is arguing that they aren't. So you can complain about lack of docs, but that's 100% on the administration. If you don't realize that, you need to step off campus more often and set foot on the front lines before claiming "nurses run the hospitals" and acting like it's in physicians' control. Because you're coming across as very uninformed about the landscape of clinical medicine and the reasons behind what's actually happening.

 

[762513]

View attachment 241421
I thought this thread was closed for some reason.

No. The NP hate abscess has been building for a few months now. Time to get it lanced. Up next; NP’s are all educated at the same awful online school, they are going to be cardiac surgeons and take everyone jobs, I saw a dumb NP once. Standby!