1st Gun Experience

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So ban assault-looking rifles? How does a wound from a 30.06, .338 mag, or short barrel 12 ga look?



omar-indeed.jpg



And don't think he can't have 2 9mms to use if you rush him when he needs to reload the 12 ga.

Gypsy,

Looking forward to your thoughts on the video from Ryder...

D712

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Gypsy,

Looking forward to your thoughts on the video from Ryder...

D712

Nothing remarkable in the video.
I think the best balance personal safety wise is to ban everything except bolt action rifles and shotguns.
I think the best protection against an oppressive government or a mob in a breakdown of society situation is full auto weapons, explosives, etc.
I think a sustained breakdown of society is unlikely.
I think actually rounding up all the semi-automatic rifles and handguns is not going to happen and robbing people of their valuable property is unacceptible.
I'd sell all my guns to be destroyed other than bolt action rifles and shotguns if criminsl-minded people were disarmed. I just don't see it happening.
Any legislation that passes will probably be for political campaigns not improved safety.
 
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I thought it very remarkable when the attending (from a busy trauma hospital, the largest freestanding in the US actually) described the immediate difference in presentation of a patient shot with a 9mm versus those shot with an assault weapon.

D712
 
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I find it obvious too. Others like PGG, JWK and Orgo though say
AWs are not any more deadly. Yet the trauma docs say they make bigger worse
Holes in people. (ie more deadly) they asked for data, I givith...
D712
 
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A few days ago there was a decent number of pmags at Sportsman SH.. All are gone now. I only grabbed two. This was right before the panic apparently. No 556 ammo or high caps anywhere locally or online.
 
I thought it very remarkable when the attending (from a busy trauma hospital, the largest freestanding in the US actually) described the immediate difference in presentation of a patient shot with a 9mm versus those shot with an assault weapon.

D712

i did not find it remarkable. a clip on youtube edited to push an agenda by abc news is not evidence.

thought they were commenting more on differences in ammunition ie full metal jacket vs soft tipped or hollow point.

that hospital sees 600 GSW's/ year. how many of those were from so called AW's?

worst gunshot wound i ever saw was from a sawed-off 12-gauge. put a hole in the fella's chest - he did not survive. in 5 years at a large level 1 trauma hospital with a huge cachment area i saw many GSW's - not a single one was from an AR-15 - small n, but for what it's worth...
 
Slavin

Not sure how many of those 600/yr (a number it takes
UK a decade to reach in its entirety) are from AWs. However the
Treating doc finds it easy to spot them, doesn't she?

It's not evidence. I don't have the pics. It's just one surgeons'
expertise. And that's good enough for me.

D712
 
I thought it very remarkable when the attending (from a busy trauma hospital, the largest freestanding in the US actually) described the immediate difference in presentation of a patient shot with a 9mm versus those shot with an assault weapon.

D712

Assault isn't a type of weapon. It's an act by a person.
What you choose to ignore is that what makes a great weapon for assault also makes a great weapon for defense.
 
Treating doc finds it easy to spot them, doesn't she?

It's not evidence. I don't have the pics. It's just one surgeons'
expertise. And that's good enough for me

The problem is that she actually can't and she actually doesn't know what she is talking about.

What she is describing is the difference between a high velocity injury and a low velocity injury, ie the difference between a rifle and pistol; That is any rifle and any pistol. All an "assault rifle" (per the AWB of 1994) is, is a semi-automatic rifle that has "evil" features, like a bayonet lug. Being black in color also helps it look evil. The actual functional mechanism has little difference compared to many hunting rifles.

She also has no idea what kind of gun the bullet came out. She can't tell if the bullet came from an AR15 or a Remington 700 (bolt action) chambered in 223 Remington. Moreover, the 5.56 Nato/223 Remington round used in an AR-15 is actually a small, under powered cartridge for large game application. It is more typically used for varmint hunting and smaller game. Most deer hunters are going to use far more powerful cartridges. In many states it is illegal to try and take a deer with it. Expanding ammunition is required by law for hunting in most states. Even further, some types of military ammo are going to be LESS likely to fragment than hunting ammo and will cause LESS injury. Just a little bit of Googling will show multiple calls for the US military to more to a larger cartridge. The US Army sticks to the smaller cartridge for some very interesting and technical reasons.

Realistically, there is nothing magical about "ASSAULT RIFLES" except that they sound scary. Functionally, they aren't particularly different from many hunting rifles. Many of the "evil features", such as a pistol grip or adjustable stock are actually ergonomic innovations that make the gun fit better (and are not actually to shoot from the hip or for concealment as the Brady Campaign would have you believe).

So honestly, your sentiment and the information given in that video comes from ignorance and are presented in a way to push an agenda. There is a profound lack of understanding of ballistics and minimal understanding of the larger context beyond the media sound bites. The "Experts" in that video, simply aren't. They many know wounds, but don't know beyond that and are allow words to be put in their mouths as they don't know better. So it might be good enough for you, but don't think you for a moment that you have actually investigated the issue or are informed.

Edited to add: Yes gunners, I know that 5.56 Nato and .223 Remington aren't actually the same. While SAAMI does say they are not interchangeable, we all know that many do interchange them and functionally, they are trivially different and certainly close enough in this context.
 
The problem is that she actually can't and she actually doesn't know what she is talking about.

What she is describing is the difference between a high velocity injury and a low velocity injury, ie the difference between a rifle and pistol; That is any rifle and any pistol. All an "assault rifle" (per the AWB of 1994) is, is a semi-automatic rifle that has "evil" features, like a bayonet lug. Being black in color also helps it look evil. The actual functional mechanism has little difference compared to many hunting rifles.

She also has no idea what kind of gun the bullet came out. She can't tell if the bullet came from an AR15 or a Remington 700 (bolt action) chambered in 223 Remington. Moreover, the 5.56 Nato/223 Remington round used in an AR-15 is actually a small, under powered cartridge for large game application. It is more typically used for varmint hunting and smaller game. Most deer hunters are going to use far more powerful cartridges. In many states it is illegal to try and take a deer with it. Expanding ammunition is required by law for hunting in most states. Even further, some types of military ammo are going to be LESS likely to fragment than hunting ammo and will cause LESS injury. Just a little bit of Googling will show multiple calls for the US military to more to a larger cartridge. The US Army sticks to the smaller cartridge for some very interesting and technical reasons.

Realistically, there is nothing magical about "ASSAULT RIFLES" except that they sound scary. Functionally, they aren't particularly different from many hunting rifles. Many of the "evil features", such as a pistol grip or adjustable stock are actually ergonomic innovations that make the gun fit better (and are not actually to shoot from the hip or for concealment as the Brady Campaign would have you believe).

So honestly, your sentiment and the information given in that video comes from ignorance and are presented in a way to push an agenda. There is a profound lack of understanding of ballistics and minimal understanding of the larger context beyond the media sound bites. The "Experts" in that video, simply aren't. They many know wounds, but don't know beyond that and are allow words to be put in their mouths as they don't know better. So it might be good enough for you, but don't think you for a moment that you have actually investigated the issue or are informed.

Edited to add: Yes gunners, I know that 5.56 Nato and .223 Remington aren't actually the same. While SAAMI does say they are not interchangeable, we all know that many do interchange them and functionally, they are trivially different and certainly close enough in this context.

Granted, you are right, she's telling the difference between pistol shots and rifle shots, understood. How many people are shot DAILY in Miami, for example, the Doc's turf, in question, with one of these?!?!?!

Modern_Hunting_Rifle_zps9f29fcd6.jpg


None. Zilch.

So what she's saying is that she can clearly see how poorly patients do when COMPARING a Glock and an AR-15 type weapon.

Can we AT LEAST agree on the above?

D712
 
Assault isn't a type of weapon. It's an act by a person.
What you choose to ignore is that what makes a great weapon for assault also makes a great weapon for defense.

It IS a type of weapon, and did have a definition during the ban (albeit a wide-sweeping one).
So, let's just call them MILITARY-STYLE RIFLES. How's that?

D712
 
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Post all the graphs you want my friend. The AR15 Weapons Ban ain't gonna happen with a GOP House.

First, the Liberals will BAN my AR15. Next, they will BAN my 20 round magazines. Then they will BAN my 8 shot revolvers. Finally, I won't be allowed a gun at all. No Thanks.
 
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Post all the graphs you want my friend. The AR15 Weapons Ban ain't gonna happen with a GOP House.

First, the Liberals will BAN my AR15. Next, they will BAN my 20 round magazines. Then they will BAN my 8 shot revolvers. Finally, I won't be allowed a gun at all. No Thanks.

They would if they could. The pendulum will never swing that far. Just like it will never swing far enough to limit the right to vote to those who pay taxes or to enforce a literacy test.
 
Granted, you are right, she's telling the difference between pistol shots and rifle shots, understood. How many people are shot DAILY in Miami, for example, the Doc's turf, in question, with one of these?!?!?!

Modern_Hunting_Rifle_zps9f29fcd6.jpg


None. Zilch.

So what she's saying is that she can clearly see how poorly patients do when COMPARING a Glock and an AR-15 type weapon.

Can we AT LEAST agree on the above?

D712

i have seen 2 patients in the 5 years at the above mentioned trauma hospital shot with bolt action hunting rifles in accidents. both 30-06 hunting ammunition. pretty significant wounds. one in the leg, one in the abdomen.

that compared to 0 shot with "assault rifles".

the above statement is also likely statistically insignificant, but could be spun either way with the right questions/editing.
 
Granted, you are right, she's telling the difference between pistol shots and rifle shots, understood. How many people are shot DAILY in Miami, for example, the Doc's turf, in question, with one of these?!?!?! <...snip...>

So what she's saying is that she can clearly see how poorly patients do when COMPARING a Glock and an AR-15 type weapon.

Can we AT LEAST agree on the above?

D712

No because you are trying to create a false dichotomy and then generalize back down. It is patently dishonest as you are trying to narrow and then generalize back. Rifles are rifles and handguns are handguns and there is a middle crossover grey zone. \

Frankly, semiautomatic rifles are actually rarely used in crimes and statistically, the murder rate in the US is lower than it has ever been. Call me are you are willing to ban swimming pools and make it illegal to drive to a place that serces alcohol. These things are far more likely to be a danger to children than a semiautomatic sporting rifle.

Don't believe me that drowning is more likely than gunshot for those under 12? Go to the WISQARS data base and run the queries yourself.
 
i have seen 2 patients in the 5 years at the above mentioned trauma hospital shot with bolt action hunting rifles in accidents. both 30-06 hunting ammunition. pretty significant wounds. one in the leg, one in the abdomen.

that compared to 0 shot with "assault rifles".

the above statement is also likely statistically insignificant, but could be spun either way with the right questions/editing.

Slavin,

2 ACCIDENTAL rifle shootings in 5 years, that's your experience with Ryder? That's what you think we're talking about here? Clearly, you are not in the majority here. I was there for TWO nights with an anesthesiologist to remain nameless and saw 3 shootings... (since the victims lived, one kid btw, I gather it was a pistol...).

Okay, the surgeon has no idea what she's talking about... there's no difference with a pistol vs. rifle shot, and nobody is going to Ryder with AW shots (surely the surgeon never gets wind of the weapon used after the fact - not likely).

Your stats just don't add up. The video is there. It says what it says. Period. I dunno, ask Dr. V his opinion...

D712
 
No because you are trying to create a false dichotomy and then generalize back down. It is patently dishonest as you are trying to narrow and then generalize back. Rifles are rifles and handguns are handguns and there is a middle crossover grey zone. \

Frankly, semiautomatic rifles are actually rarely used in crimes and statistically, the murder rate in the US is lower than it has ever been. Call me are you are willing to ban swimming pools and make it illegal to drive to a place that serces alcohol. These things are far more likely to be a danger to children than a semiautomatic sporting rifle.

Don't believe me that drowning is more likely than gunshot for those under 12? Go to the WISQARS data base and run the queries yourself.

???
 
Slavin,

2 ACCIDENTAL rifle shootings in 5 years, that's your experience with Ryder? That's what you think we're talking about here? Clearly, you are not in the majority here. I was there for TWO nights with an anesthesiologist to remain nameless and saw 3 shootings... (since the victims lived, one kid btw, I gather it was a pistol...).

Okay, the surgeon has no idea what she's talking about... there's no difference with a pistol vs. rifle shot, and nobody is going to Ryder with AW shots (surely the surgeon never gets wind of the weapon used after the fact - not likely).

Your stats just don't add up. The video is there. It says what it says. Period. I dunno, ask Dr. V his opinion...

D712

.
 
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I find it obvious too. Others like PGG, JWK and Orgo though say
AWs are not any more deadly. Yet the trauma docs say they make bigger worse
Holes in people. (ie more deadly) they asked for data, I givith...
D712

And? what's your point?

those firearms are the devices that kill people - that is their primary purpose. And for the owner the stopping power of the gun is much more important than the opinion of the trauma attending which is irrelevant.
 
So back to the original intent of the thread:

0_zps70be6fbe.jpeg


Sweet little piece, and great for a first timer. Extrememly accurate and tons of safety features, including this:

0-1_zps6c864e0d.jpeg


When it's loaded it raises up with a little red bar. You can instantly recognize if the chamber is loaded or not. Really nice for a new-b.

Has recieved numerous excellent reviews:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT1q1C_PnIY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpO2X9wweoU

My only complaint is that the slide lock release is really tight. Need to shoot a bunch more rounds to loosen it up.

Anywho, hope you all are having a great week.
 
ohhh... and it can hold up to 17 rounds. Not bad for a compact.
 
ohhh... and it can hold up to 17 rounds. Not bad for a compact.

Nice Gun. Feather light trigger. Will you be carrying this gun with the safety on? I wouldn't carry this SR9C with a bullet in the chamber without the safety on.

I wonder how the SR9 (full size) compares to the new Walther pistol?
 
Nice Gun. Feather light trigger. Will you be carrying this gun with the safety on? I wouldn't carry this SR9C with a bullet in the chamber without the safety on.

I wonder how the SR9 (full size) compares to the new Walther pistol?

You are 100% correct. Super light trigger. And the double trigger is another safety feature.
She's really diggin' it... and the Zombie ammo. :D
SR9c18.jpg



Yes. she'll def carry with the safety on @ this point in time.

Never shot the Walther pistol.
 
Slavin,

2 ACCIDENTAL rifle shootings in 5 years, that's your experience with Ryder? That's what you think we're talking about here? Clearly, you are not in the majority here. I was there for TWO nights with an anesthesiologist to remain nameless and saw 3 shootings... (since the victims lived, one kid btw, I gather it was a pistol...).

Okay, the surgeon has no idea what she's talking about... there's no difference with a pistol vs. rifle shot, and nobody is going to Ryder with AW shots (surely the surgeon never gets wind of the weapon used after the fact - not likely).

Your stats just don't add up. The video is there. It says what it says. Period. I dunno, ask Dr. V his opinion...

D712

not ryder - meant my trauma hospital. 2 bolt action rifle hunting injuries (out of many many gsw's in 5 years) and 0 AW injuries.

i already said my experience is anecdotal and statistically insignificant. my point is that you can spin an interview in a news clip to prove any bias you like.

the you tube video you posted from abc is not, absolutely not, "attending surgeon expertise". it's ridiculous to say it is.

the point of the news clip was actually more along the lines of ammunition differences.

if i buy a firearm or ammunition for self defense or hunting, i want the wound to be grievous, and lethal. once the decision is made to use lethal force, it should be just that.

not really sure what your point was in posting that video clip.
 
picking up tomorrow this one - they've just called it has arrived

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR9LOuL8aYI

The recoil on those subcompact 45 caliber guns can be substantial. IMHO, the recoil on a small .45 caliber is such thata lot of practice is required to hit the target. If and when you can hit bullseye there is no better self defense carry gun than a 45 ACP.

But, I find that smaller guns are much easier to shoot and maintain accuracy especially with follow-up shots in the 9mm caliber.

I like the XDM pistol and my preference is for the target version with a long barrel.


sp_XDM95259SHC.jpg
 
While I'd prefer a glock 26 to a 36, because I can rapid fire much more proficiently, I honestly thought the 36 was a dream to shoot. Very very pleasant. If I had more time on it, I could see having it as a go to
 
While I'd prefer a glock 26 to a 36, because I can rapid fire much more proficiently, I honestly thought the 36 was a dream to shoot. Very very pleasant. If I had more time on it, I could see having it as a go to

In a stressful situation it is helpful to be able to hit the target with one handed technique. Also, you are more likely to miss under duress/stress so quick follow-up shots are essential. I'd take a Glock 26 over a 36 because I can hit center mass with ease using one hand and followup shots also hit center. If you can do the same with a Glock 36, XDMc in .45 or a HK45C then great job. Like many others, I can't do it worth crap and my bullets don't reliably hit the center of the target. (LEO and Professionals can easily use a .45 ACP Sucompact so if you don't mind a ton of practice and then more practice to maintain proficiency then go for it).

I'll be selling a few of my pristine .45 ACP compacts/subcompacts; but, I will be keeping my fullsize .45 ACP guns.

If you a once per month type shooter then a 9mm self defense carry weapon is most likely a better choice over a .45.

I like .38, 9mm, .380 and 22 Magnum rounds for carry purposes. Certainly, stepping up to .40 or even a .45 is a solid choice for those who are polished shooters.
 
August 29, 2012 12:41 PM PrintText
Empire State Building shooting sparks questions about NYPD shot accuracy

NEW YORK - On Tuesday, New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg snapped at a reporter who asked him what he thought about the fact that some of the bullets police fired at Jeffrey Johnson, the man who killed his former boss last Friday morning outside the Empire State Building, ended up hitting civilians.



According to the New York Daily News, Bloomberg defended the officers, saying they acted "more than appropriately."


The officers who took down the armed man on a busy midtown street fired a total of 16 rounds, producing 10 bullet holes in Johnson, according to the New York Police Department. Nine bystanders were reportedly injured by bullets and bullet fragments.

Other than Johnson, who died on the scene, no one was seriously injured in the shooting. But the incident has sparked discussion about why many of the bullets fired by officers didn't actually hit their target.

It turns out that the officers' "hit ratio" on Friday was almost twice as good as the department's average. According to a 2008 analysis of NYPD firearms discharge data done by the New York Times, between 1996-2006 officers hit their intended target about 34 percent of the time.

Another analysis, published in 2006 by the RAND Center on Quality Policing at the request of Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly, found that in the years 1998-2006, the average hit ratio for officers involved in a shooting where the subject does not fire back was 30 percent. During a gunfight, where the target is shooting at officers, the study reported that the hit rate falls to just 18 percent.

The Times reported that in 2006-2007, Los Angeles police officers hit their targets between 27 and 29 percent of the time, respectively. There is no reliable national data on hit ratio.


According to Thomas Aveni, who has written extensively about police shootings and is executive director of the Police Policy Studies Council, many police agencies do not collect data on officer-involved shootings and that those that do are often reluctant to hand it over to academics, advocates or the press.

In addition, Aveni says that many analyses of the available data fail to parse important elements, such as whether the shootings occur in daylight, how many officers are involved and how close the officers are to their target. His 2003 report on the subject found that shootings involving a single officer have an approximately 50 percent hit ratio, and that low light diminishes police accuracy by up to 30 percent.


Aveni, a long-time police trainer, says that improving police hit ratio has been a decades-long struggle.

"What's been lacking in police circles for years is some measure by which we can see how an officer will perform in a life-or-death situation," says Aveni.

Typically police officers are tested on marksmanship at a firing range where the officer and the targets are still. The problem, says Aveni, is that this kind of test "does not require any judgment or real exertion." In "real life," he explains, an officer will miss most of the time when the target is moving or if there is a physical struggle involved.

But recognizing a disparity between how police are trained to shoot and how they usually end up shooting in the field is one thing - developing training that addresses the issue effectively is another.

Avent says that technology - such as virtual training simulators that allow officers to practice their skills in an "active shooter" situation - has helped some, but that the real challenge is replicating the adrenaline rush and hormonal changes that occur within an officer when he or she is confronted by an armed individual. Having officers run in place and then complete a virtual shooting scenario, or using equipment that fires paintballs at the officer hasn't made much of a difference.

"I've seen guys hold fire when they know they're being critiqued and they know the bullets aren't real," says Aveni.

Eugene O'Donnell, a former New York City police officer who is now a lecturer at John Jay College of Criminal Justice, says that although a better hit rate would be great, because less than 1 percent of police officers ever fire their weapons, focusing too much on firearms training could create an unnecessarily militaristic kind of police force.

O'Donnell says that increased firearms training would mean decreased training in what he calls "soft skills," like conflict resolution, driving, making arrests, and learning the law. It also runs the risk of turning police into soldiers who are constantly "on edge."

"You want Marine snipers?" asks O'Donnell. "That changes the ethos and how people interact with the police."
 
667264.jpg


I use this ammo in my fullsize .357 magnum for self defense because it has 1/3-1/2 the recoil of a full .357 magnum load allowing me quick and deadly followup shots; not to mention a .357 magnum load can make you deaf without hearing protection.
 
Honestly, I would consider a glock 36 far easier for a novice shooter to learn to shoot well defensively than something like a .380 mouse gun, but my own experiences with the true mouse guns may be coloring my opinion unfairly. I suck with them and hate shooting them so much I'll never practice enough with one to be adept
 
Honestly, I would consider a glock 36 far easier for a novice shooter to learn to shoot well defensively than something like a .380 mouse gun, but my own experiences with the true mouse guns may be coloring my opinion unfairly. I suck with them and hate shooting them so much I'll never practice enough with one to be adept

Not a mouse gun- a compact or subcompact gun. I hate mouse guns but the Ruger LCP in .380 isn't bad at 5 feet. The Ruger LCP in 9mm is better.

The sweet spot for a carry semi-auto is a 9mm with at least 10 rounds.

We are talking Carry guns for compact and Subcompact vs self defense at home where I recommend Full Size pistols.
 
Not a mouse gun- a compact or subcompact gun. I hate mouse guns but the Ruger LCP in .380 isn't bad at 5 feet. The Ruger LCP in 9mm is better.

The sweet spot for a carry semi-auto is a 9mm with at least 10 rounds.

We are talking Carry guns for compact and Subcompact vs self defense at home where I recommend Full Size pistols.

I agree with you, just making a comparison to something a lot of new shooters seem to go for
 
152219_01_used_h_k_usp_9_9mm_night_sight_640.jpg


Holds 18 9mm rounds. Quick release magazines. Night Sights. HK Flashlight. Sits by the bed with the 6 inch revolver and the Benelli Shotgun.
 
The recoil on those subcompact 45 caliber guns can be substantial. IMHO, the recoil on a small .45 caliber is such thata lot of practice is required to hit the target. If and when you can hit bullseye there is no better self defense carry gun than a 45 ACP.

But, I find that smaller guns are much easier to shoot and maintain accuracy especially with follow-up shots in the 9mm caliber.

I like the XDM pistol and my preference is for the target version with a long barrel.

Thanks, Blade, this is not going to be the last one
 
HK45_Barrel_Kit_Threaded_B.jpg


HK is the BMW of guns. My HK45 with threaded barrel is awesone but expensive. The HK Expert and HK tactical are just as nice and I shoot them slightly better. Still, I love my Batman Hk45 and it has never failed to fire even once with any type/brand of .45 ammo. You can throw this gun in the mud and it will still fire. Great combat weapon.
 
Went and shot the Glock 36 today. Pretty nice. I liked it a lot more than the double stacked Glocks. I also thought rapid shots weren't too difficult vs the 9s.

6 rounds should be plenty for home defense but it is kind if a pain to reload twice as often at the range.

Now if I can find a dealer who carries the 36 and some extra mags I'll be good to go.
 
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Went and shot the Glock 36 today. Pretty nice. I liked it a lot more than the double stacked Glocks. I also thought rapid shots weren't too difficult vs the 9s.

6 rounds should be plenty for home defense but it is kind if a pain to reload twice as often at the range.

Now if I can find a dealer who carries the 36 and some extra mags I'll be good to go.

If you wait a few months and let the gun hype die down a bit the Glock 36 and extra magazines should be readily available at a good price. I recommend a minimum of 3 magazines and usually have 4-5 per gun.

6 shots are plenty for home defense; but, why not get a full size Glock which holds a minimum of 15 rounds?
 
If you wait a few months and let the gun hype die down a bit the Glock 36 and extra magazines should be readily available at a good price. I recommend a minimum of 3 magazines and usually have 4-5 per gun.

6 shots are plenty for home defense; but, why not get a full size Glock which holds a minimum of 15 rounds?

I think my shooting is the same but I have a better feel to the grip with the narrower 36.

I understand the rush to buy AR-15s, but not the inclusion of revolvers and low capacity pistols in the mania. My nearest gun store has been sold out of 5.56 and 7.62 ammo for weeks. I went yesterday and they were sold out of every brand of 9mm too. I went to a gun show and saw someone buying $5 boxes of Tulammo 7.62 for $12/box. I'm glad I was pretty well stocked already. I expect things to normalize soon as the fiscal cliff and debt ceiling take back over the news.
 
pgg - what's a rough cost estimate for setting up a trust? Is there a lawyer aspect involved that having a lawyer friend could cut the cost some?
 
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