2-year MOC point requirement is eliminated

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DrMetal

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Let’s give them something to keep them quiet for a while.

Exactly. This was by far the least burdensome aspect of their “board certification”.

They still haven’t reduced the fees, made the recurrent testing more reasonable, etc.

The MOC points were basically redundant anyway - because if you were doing the CME that most states require, you were already “doing MOC”.
 
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I just finished taking the ABIM moc in October, this is my second recerrt . It is nerve wracking , waiting for the results to be posted. They still have not released them. Going into the holidays, wondering if I have to take the stupid thing again.
 
And don’t forget you get 5% off if you pre-pay the yearly mock fee. Ridiculous. Watch them increase the yearly price on that too.
 
I just finished taking the ABIM moc in October, this is my second recerrt . It is nerve wracking , waiting for the results to be posted. They still have not released them. Going into the holidays, wondering if I have to take the stupid thing again.

Absolutely ridiculous. So you've taken the test 3 times now (once out of residency, twice recert)?

I beg you all, join NBPAS, let's push for the end of MOC. You take your BC exam once (out of residency), and you're done with it.
 
I just finished taking the ABIM moc in October, this is my second recerrt . It is nerve wracking , waiting for the results to be posted. They still have not released them. Going into the holidays, wondering if I have to take the stupid thing again.
I took the MOC October 15th as well and am still anxiously awaiting my score. It was my first MOC and I didnt know what to expect. I missed the deadline to register for the LKA so had to bite the bullet and cram for the long test.
 
Absolutely ridiculous. So you've taken the test 3 times now (once out of residency, twice recert)?

I beg you all, join NBPAS, let's push for the end of MOC. You take your BC exam once (out of residency), and you're done with it.
once out of residency - then 10 years later, and now the one in October . If i fail this , then will have to take it again in April 2025 - because not sure if I can enroll anymore in that LKA 5yr deal
 
I took the MOC October 15th as well and am still anxiously awaiting my score. It was my first MOC and I didnt know what to expect. I missed the deadline to register for the LKA so had to bite the bullet and cram for the long test.
well , we’ll either celebrate virtually together- or you’ll celebrate and i’ll cry . This is super dumb . I feel like I am in college waiting for semester grades to be posted. 🙄
 
Today i found out i didnt pass. 😥. i was 8 points away from minimum required points to pass.
I took the Awesome Review course by Dr. Rahman. Studied for six months in between work, and family obligations.
Make matters worse I found out that my father passed away today. He was ill and to be expected, but it’s a gut punch to get these results today and my father passing on same day.

For those of you that have taken other material or study courses, any suggestions? PLEASE. Uworld Q bank? Buy The whole mksap series?


I guess they give you 1 yr grace period before uncertifying you. I have to take the one in April 2025 i guess.
 
I'm saddened to hear about all you have been through.

I assume you took the General Internal Medicine MOC exam? There is a large thread in these forums about studying for ABIM certification/recertification. Lot's of good advice there, so I won't post here. Eventually you'll see some trends to put it all together. I've made several contributions as well which I recommend you review FWIW (of course 🙂).

Your studying for the next MOC exam starts today! The past is just that. I suggest you aim to spend 60 minutes most every day.

Do make sure you review your exam performance report which itemizes the areas where you did less well than others. As part of your overall study program, you need to spend proportionately more time in these areas where you had the most wrong answers. Some areas may have relatively few(er) questions represented on the blue print, so make sure you are maximizing your knowledge base specifically for this exam.

There is an alternative board certification body, can't recall the name. Is that something that would work for your employment requirements? You could pursue that in tandem possibly.
 
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I'm saddened to hear about all you have been through.

I assume you took the General Internal Medicine MOC exam? There is a large thread in these forums about studying for ABIM certification/recertification. Lot's of good advice there, so I won't post here. Eventually you'll see some trends to put it all together. I've made several contributions as well which I recommend you review FWIW (of course 🙂).

Your studying for the next MOC exam starts today! The past is just that. I suggest you aim to spend 60 minutes most every day.

Do make sure you review your exam performance report which itemizes the areas where you did less well than others. As part of your overall study program, you need to spend proportionately more time in these areas where you had the most wrong answers. Some areas may have relatively few(er) questions represented on the blue print, so make sure you are maximizing your knowledge base specifically for this exam.

There is an alternative board certification body, can't recall the name. Is that something that would work for your employment requirements? You could pursue that in tandem possibly.
Thank you for these words of encouragement. I was somebody that took it in October, the MOC. And I got my results last week on the same day that my father passed away. Worst day of my life. I failed it said by 8 points. This is such a wonderful forum,. I used awesome review as my sole source of studying for almost 8 months. The teacher of that course said the notes are all that is necessary to review. I also suffer from test anxiety, so not sure if that played a role. I took 0.5 clonazepam and 25 mg hydroxizine the night before to sleep, based on my PCP’s instructions. Probably won’t do that again next time.
I have now bought UWorld and Mksap19 and I am now going to focus on those and try the May 1, 2025 exam again . Not sure if enough time to go through everything.
 
Thank you for these words of encouragement. I was somebody that took it in October, the MOC. And I got my results last week on the same day that my father passed away. Worst day of my life. I failed it said by 8 points. This is such a wonderful forum,. I used awesome review as my sole source of studying for almost 8 months. The teacher of that course said the notes are all that is necessary to review. I also suffer from test anxiety, so not sure if that played a role. I took 0.5 clonazepam and 25 mg hydroxizine the night before to sleep, based on my PCP’s instructions. Probably won’t do that again next time.
I have now bought UWorld and Mksap19 and I am now going to focus on those and try the May 1, 2025 exam again . Not sure if enough time to go through everything.
Can you take the exam in the Fall instead? Sounds like you need more time.
 
Is anybody ok with this? That we have to do MOC, that we have to repeatedly take a test that we've passed several times before? That now a practicing physician, such as @pishicat , has to take time away from clinical practice, to study for a multiple guess test? (meanwhile a PA or NP is allowed to do essentially the same job)

I'm just curious, does anybody think these are positive attributes of a profession? Do we need just strife? Are we all such good lemmings that we succumb to any ridiculous thing we're asked to do?
 
Can you take the exam in the Fall instead? Sounds like you need more time.
thanks for the reply. I truly appreciate ALL of you on this forum. I feel defeated. I definitely can take the fall exam , but I thought it won’t hurt to take the May. If I fail, I have one more attempt which is the fall. I guess if I fail again in spring, they’ll still give me a 50% discount for the fall exam. After that, they’re gonna report me as not certified. And then I don’t know what’s gonna happen. I guess there won’t allow you to retake it for a minimum of one year? I don’t know if anyone knows. Can you enroll in that LKA? Or have you given up your options once you become not certified. i hate this 🥺
 
Is anybody ok with this? That we have to do MOC, that we have to repeatedly take a test that we've passed several times before? That now a practicing physician, such as @pishicat , has to take time away from clinical practice, to study for a multiple guess test? (meanwhile a PA or NP is allowed to do essentially the same job)

I'm just curious, does anybody think these are positive attributes of a profession? Do we need just strife? Are we all such good lemmings that we succumb to any ridiculous thing we're asked to do?
I am definitely not OK with this. I vote ABIM off the island. sucks going into the holidays, honestly. But I have to jump back on the horse. I’ve taken everyone’s advice bought more books and practice questions. The funny thing is, nothing on that ABIM exam is job related. Nothing. I’m internal medicine, but I do law-enforcement fit for duty exams; occupational health. But the agency requires board certification.
 
Is anybody ok with this? That we have to do MOC, that we have to repeatedly take a test that we've passed several times before? That now a practicing physician, such as @pishicat , has to take time away from clinical practice, to study for a multiple guess test? (meanwhile a PA or NP is allowed to do essentially the same job)

I'm just curious, does anybody think these are positive attributes of a profession? Do we need just strife? Are we all such good lemmings that we succumb to any ridiculous thing we're asked to do?
We are not ok with it. We need to get rid of ABIM.
 
thanks for the reply. I truly appreciate ALL of you on this forum. I feel defeated. I definitely can take the fall exam , but I thought it won’t hurt to take the May. If I fail, I have one more attempt which is the fall. I guess if I fail again in spring, they’ll still give me a 50% discount for the fall exam. After that, they’re gonna report me as not certified. And then I don’t know what’s gonna happen. I guess there won’t allow you to retake it for a minimum of one year? I don’t know if anyone knows. Can you enroll in that LKA? Or have you given up your options once you become not certified. i hate this 🥺


It ain't about how hard you're hit, it's about how you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward.
Get up!
- Rocky Balboa


Get up off the ground, study, and pass that exam. Don't focus anymore on how you feel defeated. Focus on a winning strategy starting now!
 
It ain't about how hard you're hit, it's about how you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward.
Get up!
- Rocky Balboa


Get up off the ground, study, and pass that exam. Don't focus anymore on how you feel defeated. Focus on a winning strategy starting now!
Awesome advice! Thanks for the pep talk . 🙏
 
Well, 3 weeks left- gonna go at it again - MOC on May 1st 🙄. Wish me luck. this time I did the U World questions, took the advice of this forum. Thank you everyone for your input. I hope I pass this time.
 
Well, 3 weeks left- gonna go at it again - MOC on May 1st 🙄. Wish me luck. this time I did the U World questions, took the advice of this forum. Thank you everyone for your input. I hope I pass this time.
Good luck!!
 
Well, 3 weeks left- gonna go at it again - MOC on May 1st 🙄. Wish me luck. this time I did the U World questions, took the advice of this forum. Thank you everyone for your input. I hope I pass this time.
You go get'em!!!
 
MOC 10 year enchilada is a tortoise wins the race.
For your final week, I suggest you stop studying. You won't gain any extra points of significance, but you may be frazzled.
Rest, sleep, exercise, eat healthy, and have some fun. You need to feel well for the exam. That will get you some extra points instead of less.
 
MOC 10 year enchilada is a tortoise wins the race.
For your final week, I suggest you stop studying. You won't gain any extra points of significance, but you may be frazzled.
Rest, sleep, exercise, eat healthy, and have some fun. You need to feel well for the exam. That will get you some extra points instead of less.

I suggest you don't take it at all. Get BC'd vis NBPAS, which is quickly picking up steam. It'll be a wonderful day when NBPAS is expected everywhere, and we can ditch ABIM/ABMS!
 
I suggest you don't take it at all. Get BC'd vis NBPAS, which is quickly picking up steam. It'll be a wonderful day when NBPAS is expected everywhere, and we can ditch ABIM/ABMS!
Here lies the problem: Only a small handful of hospitals in the United States even recognize the NBPAS as board certification. Almost all hospitals in major cities only recognize the ABIM as legitimate board certification. If you are hospital employed and the hospital requires certification, you are out of luck, just ABIM or you are not hired.
 
Here lies the problem: Only a small handful of hospitals in the United States even recognize the NBPAS as board certification. Almost all hospitals in major cities only recognize the ABIM as legitimate board certification. If you are hospital employed and the hospital requires certification, you are out of luck, just ABIM or you are not hired.

I hear ya, you're right. I'm hoping NBPAS picks up more steam and reverses that. Maybe just wishful thinking, but they do seem to be gaining momentum (I'm bc'd by both . . .would love to give up my ABIM someday).
 
I think it is important for others to carry the torch on this one and other health care reforms as best we can. Sometimes the change occurs for the next generation (certainly not mine), or the one that follows, not ours. Sometimes change goes backwards, losing ground.
Persistence is the only way to erode certain perceived wrongs to bring fairness and balance.

As an example, I was reading about Woman's suffrage recently which consisted of multiple generations of advocates. Only one of the women at the Seneca Falls convention lived to legally vote, and that is because she was 19 at the time. In 1920, she voted at age 91! Talk about persistence.
 
I hear ya, you're right. I'm hoping NBPAS picks up more steam and reverses that. Maybe just wishful thinking, but they do seem to be gaining momentum (I'm bc'd by both . . .would love to give up my ABIM someday).
So slight devil's advocate here. If the ABIM goes away, what will the NBPAS use as their initial board certification exam?
 
So slight devil's advocate here. If the ABIM goes away, what will the NBPAS use as their initial board certification exam?

I don't think ABIM will ever completely go away. I think there will always be an iBC (initial board certification). NBPAS recognizes that as well.

The main point of NBPAS is to eliminate the need for MOC. If you get your iBC, you should be good to go! That's how it was in the beginning.

I'd love to see a day when all of 'Board Certification' is eradicated. It's a meaningless credential that we physicians made up to harass to each other with. Patient's don't care. (If we need to test graduating residents or fellows to prove they know their stuff, do that while they're still trainees and let it be run by ACGME).
 
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So slight devil's advocate here. If the ABIM goes away, what will the NBPAS use as their initial board certification exam?

This is one of the major issues. Thus far, for IM trained docs, I haven’t seen an alternative to the initial certification with ABIM (aside from ABOIM, which would only apply to DOs).

In some of the subspecialties (cardiology), there are other institutions lobbying to become an alternative for initial certification. To my knowledge, none of these has actually been successful yet. And nobody else is trying to become an ABIM alternative for general IM.
 
I don't think ABIM will ever completely go away. I think there will always be an iBC (initial board certification). NBPAS recognizes that as well.

The main point of NBPAS is to eliminate the need for MOC. If you get your iBC, you should be good to go! That's how it was in the beginning.

I'd love to see a day when all of 'Board Certification' is eradicated. It's a meaningless credential that we physicians made up to harass to each other with. Patient's don't care. (If we need to test graduating residents or fellows to prove they know their stuff, do that while they're still trainees and let it be run by ACGME).

It has always seemed weird to me that we have these separate “gatekeeper” organizations like ABIM that administer a test after training is over to determine if you can be board certified. If you complete residency/fellowship, then why do we need some outside institution to do another test to confirm this? If you complete training, is that adequate to practice medicine in that specialty…or not? If it isn’t, then we’d better change up our training. If it is, then why does another test exist? Why have we allowed a situation where you can complete your official training to practice, and then another completely separate institution can basically veto your ability to practice based on their test? Does the opinion of your attendings, PD, training program basically mean nothing?

Maybe we make the ITE into the “board certification test”. You get three chances to pass during training.
 
It has always seemed weird to me that we have these separate “gatekeeper” organizations like ABIM that administer a test after training is over to determine if you can be board certified. If you complete residency/fellowship, then why do we need some outside institution to do another test to confirm this? If you complete training, is that adequate to practice medicine in that specialty…or not? If it isn’t, then we’d better change up our training. If it is, then why does another test exist? Why have we allowed a situation where you can complete your official training to practice, and then another completely separate institution can basically veto your ability to practice based on their test? Does the opinion of your attendings, PD, training program basically mean nothing?

Maybe we make the ITE into the “board certification test”. You get three chances to pass during training.
We are a bunch of spineless [insert]. We even let people with online training and 500 hrs of preceptorship (at best) taking over our profession.
 
It has always seemed weird to me that we have these separate “gatekeeper” organizations like ABIM that administer a test after training is over to determine if you can be board certified. If you complete residency/fellowship, then why do we need some outside institution to do another test to confirm this? If you complete training, is that adequate to practice medicine in that specialty…or not? If it isn’t, then we’d better change up our training. If it is, then why does another test exist? Why have we allowed a situation where you can complete your official training to practice, and then another completely separate institution can basically veto your ability to practice based on their test? Does the opinion of your attendings, PD, training program basically mean nothing?

Maybe we make the ITE into the “board certification test”. You get three chances to pass during training.
You don't have to be board certified to practice medicine.
 
You don't have to be board certified to practice medicine.

For all intents and purposes, you do. If you want to work at the vast majority of hospitals and private practices and be able to actually bill insurance, you will almost certainly need to be board certified. There aren’t many exceptions…maybe if you’re doing cash only DPC work or you’re trying to get a hospital job in the middle of nowhere, you can get away with not being BC. But even the hospitals in the boonies generally want it now.
 
For all intents and purposes, you do. If you want to work at the vast majority of hospitals and private practices and be able to actually bill insurance, you will almost certainly need to be board certified. There aren’t many exceptions…maybe if you’re doing cash only DPC work or you’re trying to get a hospital job in the middle of nowhere, you can get away with not being BC. But even the hospitals in the boonies generally want it now.
When I worked for Community Health you needed to have been initially certified but they didn't care if you kept it up.

When I was in residency I did a good bit of moonlighting in areas that could have been full time jobs of I'd wanted them to be.
 
It has always seemed weird to me that we have these separate “gatekeeper” organizations like ABIM that administer a test after training is over to determine if you can be board certified. If you complete residency/fellowship, then why do we need some outside institution to do another test to confirm this? If you complete training, is that adequate to practice medicine in that specialty…or not? If it isn’t, then we’d better change up our training.

Precisely. You know its silly when you try to explain it to your non-medical friends. Comments I've gotten: Who's board is it? How can it be a 'Board' if it's not run by a formal gov't or academic entity? Sounds like a country club you all just made up!

Can you imagine if we made lawyers re-bar every ten years?! (better argument for that, since the law does change a lot).

We are a bunch of spineless [insert]. We even let people with online training and 500 hrs of preceptorship (at best) taking over our profession.

Sadly, true. And we don't care for each other, that's why we create things, like MOC, that directly harms us.

Having said all of this: I do think NBPAS is a step in the right direction. I'd encourage you all to look into it. And if it becomes more-widely accepted, it may be our solution.
 
The history of board certification is really interesting. Like many things, it's more evolved than designed.

In the early 1900's there was little standardization in physician training. Most graduating medical students did a 1 year rotating internship, and then became "General Practitioners". As such, they could do absolutely anything they want - surgery (of any type), procedures, etc. And most states didn't require an internship, so nothing stopped someone from graduating from medical school and just going out and doing anything they wanted. Much of what we consider modern medicine wasn't widely available - labs, xrays, etc. The world was very different.

Early 1900's heralded several change events. One was Flexner in 1910 which reformed undergrad medical education -- standardized it, and moved it from for-profit schools to universities. There was a similar push to standardize GME, although not as organized. The next big event was WW I. The army decided to classify physicians into various specialty sections -- based on whatever criteria they decided. Once the war was over, medicine decided that they wanted a way to self define "specialists" from GP's. And the boards were born.

But there was no overarching organization, and various boards focused on different goals. The ABS (surgery) wanted to standardize surgical training and experience, and was worried that patients "...with intelligent judgement in other matters were cheerfully hopping up on operating tables and allowing a medical school graduate with one year of training in a rotating internship to peer and search aimlessly within their abdominal and other body cavities" Which was exactly what was happening. So they designed board certification as a floor - proof that you have the minimum skill set to practice as a surgeon. Meanwhile, the ABIM wanted board cert to be "a feather in your cap" - and designed board certification to be an aspirational goal, demonstrating mastery of the subject. They had no interest in most GP's pursuing board cert.

There was lots of infighting as to whether this Board Cert thing (especially in IM) was of any value. Many felt it was hooey.

And then along came another change event. WW II. This impacted physicians in several ways. First, WWII was the first big mobilization of physicians into the armed forces. And second, all of these GP's who were drafted into the army all of a sudden got exposed to the tools of modern medicine - xrays, labs, IV meds, etc. before this, much of that was out of reach of most GP's. The war (and the army) brought all that technology right to the battle lines, and physicians got all sorts of experience they didn't have before.

The army had one other big impact, likely completed unplanned. The army needs grunts and leaders. It's very hierarchical. So with all these doctors, they needed some way to decide whom was in charge, and whom was a grunt. And they had no way to do that. So they looked around, and found this "board certification" thing. And they decided that the docs that were BC would be in charge / higher rank, and those that were not would be grunts. And so, all these young docs coming out of medical school and directly into military service quickly learned that the way to get ahead was to be BC.

Post WWII, many young docs returned to residency spots. The gov't was now funding them, and the VA system was being built. All of the tools used by medicine in WWII became much more available. The GI Bill paid for much of it. ABIM shifted to a minimum competency model as more and more docs wanted board certification. Residency training became more standardized. And we were off to the races.

Should you be interested in more: The invention and development of American internal medicine - PubMed
 
The history of board certification is really interesting. Like many things, it's more evolved than designed.

I'm impressed if you recollected and wrote that all off the top of your head. You know your history.

Am curios, what do you think of the NBPAS effort ? (which of course requires residency training, iBC, and real CME . . .but no periodic testing)
 
Well, I think it's a dumb solution to a stupid problem.

First we had lifelong BC. We can certainly have a debate about whether passing an MCQ test really determines whether you are competent to practice in your field. But I think there probably should be some assessment of knowledge, and this is probably the best we can do.

Then, there was debate about whether we should remove lifelong BC -- which would mean some form of MOC. The ABIM's initial rollout of MOC was beyond horrible. On top of the MK stuff you needed to do, there were these requirements to do Patient Voice and Quality Improvement which were horribly clunky and absolutely useless. The ABIM stuck with them for too long, but ultimately dumped them. So now, MOC is basically the same as CME. And almost everything I do for CME credit also counts for MOC credit. We actually stopped offering MOC credits for all our internal conferences (Grand rounds, M&M, etc) because they are so easy to generate elsewhere it stopped being used.

Somewhere in the middle there, the ABIM was offering an "Update in Hospital Medicine" and "Update in Internal Medicine" Mk module. They were each 40 questions, linked to a study (with the link provided). If you didn't know the answer, you could look at the study and figure it out. Personally, I found these incredibly helpful. Lots of studies in more niche journals that I would never see but were interesting. I thought these were great. Sadly, ABIM stopped doing them.

So now, MOC is basically CME + some sort of exam. Either the 10 year exam, or the new LKA. Depending on how that's done, it might be OK. I don't need to consider the LKA for another few years, but I'll probably try it. I think the mistake that the ABIM has made is making the MOC process one that seems easy to fail -- so people worry about it, study, drive themselves crazy. The ABIM should make it something that you know you're going to pass, self study, hopefully something people will learn from.

The NBPAS is just CME after BC. We all need to do CME for state licenses, so basically this is nothing. It's just a money grab to say you're still board certified, since without CME you can't renew your license. So it's a dumb solution to the stupid problem of a broken MOC system. It's the same as lifelong BC, with more paperwork and fees. It's a backdoor around ABIM MOC. What we should do is reform ABIM MOC so it's CME +/- an MCQ process that is built to be low stakes.
 
But I think there probably should be some assessment of knowledge

I think this is what's wrong with our mentality: the constant need for testing.

Why can't we just 'assess knowledge' by examining one's practice and their results? (how many cases did you do over the past 5 years, complication rate, # of mal-practice suits, # of disciplinary instances, or lack thereof, etc etc).

This is done fairly regularly by most credentialing bodies (hospitals, clinics, etc).

Why can't that serve as an assessment of knowledge?

Passing a MCQ means you're good at taking tests; any of us can study for and pass a test.

Why don't lawyers re-bar every 10 years? They should, much of the law changes over a decade! They don't. But she'd be a fool not to learn and keep up with new laws, if she wants clients and to continue practicing.
 
I think this is what's wrong with our mentality: the constant need for testing.

Why can't we just 'assess knowledge' by examining one's practice and their results? (how many cases did you do over the past 5 years, complication rate, # of mal-practice suits, # of disciplinary instances, or lack thereof, etc etc).
I'll take this one on and ask an initial clarifying question...have you been a member of a hospital credentialing committee or a med exec committee? Have you been a medical director of a physician group? Department chair? Because that will help with this discussion.
This is done fairly regularly by most credentialing bodies (hospitals, clinics, etc).
It is, but it's primarily administrative, not knowledge/practice based. And while truly atrocious patient care does eventually get rooted out in these systems, it often takes many, many years. And just being mediocre, or practicing out of date medicine, doesn't get touched on at all.
Why can't that serve as an assessment of knowledge?
Because the vast majority of us practice in silos. Sure, I may have half a dozen other docs in my group, but it's rare that we overlap in our care of a patient, and even more rare that we actually critically analyze another physician's care. This may be a difference between outpatient and inpatient medicine, so perhaps your experience is different than mine.
Passing a MCQ means you're good at taking tests; any of us can study for and pass a test.
Agreed. I'm actually a fan of the current ABIM LKA system (at least in oncology), since the questions are very practice focused, up to date, give you immediate feedback and can be challenged in real time.
Why don't lawyers re-bar every 10 years? They should, much of the law changes over a decade! They don't. But she'd be a fool not to learn and keep up with new laws, if she wants clients and to continue practicing.
Whataboutism doesn't really help anyone. And the markets for lawyers and physicians aren't even remotely similar other than requiring post-graduate education and typically a large amount of debt to get there.

A more relevant parallel comparison is actually professional engineers (my brother in law is one so I'm familiar with this from his experience). These are masters/doctoral level (but mostly masters) engineers in any number of engineering fields. In order to get a PE, you have to work under the supervision of another PE in your field (typically the same PE, not bouncing from one job to another...sound familiar?) for 4 years once you have your degree, then pass 2 exams, one fundamentals, one practical and then pay a gigantic fee (I feel like I've heard of this before). But then, you need to complete a certain number of paid CE hours through the National Society of Professional Engineers (NSPE) every 5 years in order to maintain your PE credential. (Hmm...where I have heard of this crazy system?)
 
I'll take this one on and ask an initial clarifying question...have you been a member of a hospital credentialing committee or a med exec committee? Have you been a medical director of a physician group? Department chair? Because that will help with this discussion.
system?)

Yes, hospital credentialling and medical director (never a chair).

It is, but it's primarily administrative, not knowledge/practice based. And while truly atrocious patient care does eventually get rooted out in these systems, it often takes many, many years. And just being mediocre, or practicing out of date medicine, doesn't get touched on at all.

Because the vast majority of us practice in silos. Sure, I may have half a dozen other docs in my group, but it's rare that we overlap in our care of a patient, and even more rare that we actually critically analyze another physician's care. This may be a difference between outpatient and inpatient medicine, so perhaps your experience is different than mine.

So make the review or credentialling process better, so that we can maintain better surveillance and catch mediocre or atrocious patient care.

In any case, BC/MOC doesn't solve any of this. Again: all BC/MOC means is that you knew how to study for and take a test. You're still free to practice however you wish.

the PE is a good analogy. But engineers don't have to re-take the PE every 10 years! I guess our buildings and bridges don't matter that much.
 

Via a Royal rumble style, bloody monkey knife fight in the doctor's lounge . . . last physician left standing is the best practitioner (this would be a more honest approach in our back-stabbing culture).

I don't know what the exact solution is. But I know BC/MOC is not the solution, it's only burdensome.

Right now in my hospital, I can think at least 3 surgeons, who's last 100 cases if your reviewed, you'd be aghast that they're allowed to operate. Yet, each one of them is BCd (some multiple BCs), does MOC, and praises himself for maintaining this. Never mind their >20% complication rate and that they rarely round on their post-op patients.
 
So make the review or credentialling process better, so that we can maintain better surveillance and catch mediocre or atrocious patient care.
I can't argue that this is a bad idea. But I can say that it will never happen for a number of reasons, the biggest of which is money.
In any case, BC/MOC doesn't solve any of this. Again: all BC/MOC means is that you knew how to study for and take a test. You're still free to practice however you wish.

the PE is a good analogy. But engineers don't have to re-take the PE every 10 years! I guess our buildings and bridges don't matter that much.
No, but their CE is similar to MOC and the LKA, which was my point.
 
A more relevant parallel comparison is actually professional engineers (my brother in law is one so I'm familiar with this from his experience). These are masters/doctoral level (but mostly masters) engineers in any number of engineering fields. In order to get a PE, you have to work under the supervision of another PE in your field (typically the same PE, not bouncing from one job to another...sound familiar?) for 4 years once you have your degree, then pass 2 exams, one fundamentals, one practical and then pay a gigantic fee (I feel like I've heard of this before). But then, you need to complete a certain number of paid CE hours through the National Society of Professional Engineers (NSPE) every 5 years in order to maintain your PE credential. (Hmm...where I have heard of this crazy system?)
When I got my MS in E.E. many years ago, not many of us saw the need for PE. It seemed anachronistic for the type of work we were doing - software, fiber optic, chips, control systems, antenna design, etc to name a few areas. At the time, we E.E.s perceived it was more the mechanical and civil engineers that needed the professional designation. Not sure how it is emphasized now, or how relevant. It certainly seems analogous to our medical credentialling. I often wonder how things would have been if I stayed in engineering, but I do love the clinical work and learning.
 
This conversation is (perhaps) confusing two separate issues:
1. Should there be an MCQ test to measure baseline knowledge at the beginning of practice?
2. Should there be some sort of MOC process to prove that you're remaining up to date?

Personally, I think the answer to #1 should be "Yes", although I'd be OK with "No" also. I'd also be OK with just using the ITE in IM, letting residents take it in their PGY-2 and 3 years, and all they need to do is pass it. I like the idea of some national standard like this. Obviously the content of the exam is critical. I recently certified in Clinical Informatics, and the exam was awful -- it was mostly useless drivel and buzzwords. It has nothing to do with what I do on a daily basis. My experience with the ABIM exam is that the content is mostly useful.

For #2, I think the answer is yes also. CME needs to be required (which is already covered by all state licenses). I personally like the idea of some sort of LKA. It should be directly clinically relevant. It should be easy to pass. You should be able to look up the answers. It should be low stress. I am fine with holding physicians to a higher standard than lawyers.

Not all physicians are followed / evaluated by hospital credentialing committees. Many are PCP's, work in some sort of a private office. Without MOC, the only requirement they will have is CME for their license. They may not need to do MOC anyway.

As I mentioned, I think MOC should be just some open book LKA with references. No timings. Score doesn't matter, you're considered participating in MOC as long as you do it. 20-30 questions per year max focused on new things / changes / important updates. That's it. CME is already covered by licenses, so no need to repeat it here.
Right now in my hospital, I can think at least 3 surgeons, who's last 100 cases if your reviewed, you'd be aghast that they're allowed to operate. Yet, each one of them is BCd (some multiple BCs), does MOC, and praises himself for maintaining this. Never mind their >20% complication rate and that they rarely round on their post-op patients.
I could point out that this means that your current credentialing system is no good. It's very difficult to assess physicians based on their practice. Surgeons with bad outcomes will often argue that their patients are sicker. But I do agree that credentialing, esp for people who do procedures, should be based upon outcomes and that cred committees should look at this data and take it seriously.
 
Via a Royal rumble style, bloody monkey knife fight in the doctor's lounge . . . last physician left standing is the best practitioner (this would be a more honest approach in our back-stabbing culture).

I don't know what the exact solution is. But I know BC/MOC is not the solution, it's only burdensome.

Right now in my hospital, I can think at least 3 surgeons, who's last 100 cases if your reviewed, you'd be aghast that they're allowed to operate. Yet, each one of them is BCd (some multiple BCs), does MOC, and praises himself for maintaining this. Never mind their >20% complication rate and that they rarely round on their post-op patients.
I'm an outpatient PCP, not sure I could find the doctor's lounge if my knife-wielding life depended on it.

Otherwise, count me in!
 
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