200+ Unfilled EM Spots

[nimbus]

Em included? Serious question. It’s a different animal imo. Medicine is not what it was.

People will always get sick or injured so yes.

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[Splenda88]

Family medicine? I know a bunch of I’m docs who want to work em or have. The younger crowd less so. The jobs available to them are fairly terrible now but they used to be able to get decent gigs.

I see. I am parr of t he younger crowds. Being a ED doc is worse than hospital medicine IMO, though the pay is better.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Medical Students Take to Social Media to Normalize Not Matching

'I think really it can happen to anyone'

www.medpagetoday.com

Mentions EM

 

[EctopicFetus]

People will always get sick or injured so yes.

Finite need. Already hard to get a decent job. And supply far exceeding demand.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I see. I am parr of t he younger crowds. Being a ED doc is worse than hospital medicine IMO, though the pay is better.

Depends on your situation. I know of a handful of em docs who made $1m a year. I’m not one of them. There are some great jobs out there but they are not accessible to most.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I see. I am parr of t he younger crowds. Being a ED doc is worse than hospital medicine IMO, though the pay is better.

I’ll say this too and it likely goes both ways but I never look at my hospitalists and think I wish I did that job.

 

[Splenda88]

Depends on your situation. I know of a handful of em docs who made $1m a year. I’m not one of them. There are some great jobs out there but they are not accessible to most.

I wonder how they are able to make 1 mil by just working. Are these docs making $300+/hr and working 60 hrs/week? That is impressive.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I wonder how they are able to make 1 mil by just working. Are these docs making $300+/hr and working 60 hrs/week? That is impressive.

I know second hand (partner of a guy) who made 180k in a month. There are groups making 250-300 per patient. Have to have a great payer mix. This guy who made 180k in a month they make over 300 a patient. Well oiled shops can see 3 pph. Obviously to make 180k you are looking at 180 hard ass hours in a month.
one friend who made over $1m did so by crushing the locums game including picking up hours at $500 and $1k an hour. This was on the west coast. Those days are long gone. He averaged between 400 and 500 per hour for the year and worked 2200 hours that year.
re making $1m a year It’s not easy but at 300/pt that’s 3300 patients a year or about 275 a month and at 2 pph is under 140 hours a month.
now biggest deal is the 300/patient. Rare but its out there.

 

[Splenda88]

I know second hand (partner of a guy) who made 180k in a month. There are groups making 250-300 per patient. Have to have a great payer mix. This guy who made 180k in a month they make over 300 a patient. Well oiled shops can see 3 pph. Obviously to make 180k you are looking at 180 hard ass hours in a month.
one friend who made over $1m did so by crushing the locums game including picking up hours at $500 and $1k an hour. This was on the west coast. Those days are long gone. He averaged between 400 and 500 per hour for the year and worked 2200 hours that year.
re making $1m a year It’s not easy but at 300/pt that’s 3300 patients a year or about 275 a month and at 2 pph is under 140 hours a month.
now biggest deal is the 300/patient. Rare but its out there.

I knew 600k was not that hard for you guys to make given that hourly rate for ED is still good, but I did not think there are people out there making 1 mil...

 

[BoardingDoc]

I knew 600k was not that hard for you guys to make given that hourly rate for ED is still good, but I did not think there are people out there making 1 mil...

I'm sure there are PCPs out there making 1M also. They are similarly extreme outliers. Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it's necessarily relevant.

 

[Splenda88]

I'm sure there are PCPs out there making 1M also. They are similarly extreme outliers. Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it's necessarily relevant.

It would be quasi impossible for a PCP to make 1 mil by just getting paid hourly. The only way PCP can make a 1 mil is having multiple clinics and have an army of midlevels working for them.

 

[gyngyn]

There are still 8 unfilled positions in EM after the SOAP.

 

[Rekt]

There are still 8 unfilled positions in EM after the SOAP.

Not enough.


So uh, anyone got that list of programs that had to soap?

 

[gyngyn]

So uh, anyone got that list of programs that had to soap?

It's really long..

 

[alpinism]

I've heard that its many of the new community programs.

But also Buffalo and Toledo for university programs.

 

[Splenda88]

I think these programs chose to stay unfilled because there are unmatched applicants who would be thrilled to match into anything/anywhere.

 

[Rekt]

I think these programs chose to stay unfilled because there are unmatched applicants who would be thrilled to match into anything/anywhere.

No. HF Allegiance is a snowy desolate dying wasteland, but the faculty interviews like they're the best program in the country . MMI style interviews with barrages of pimping and they have a psychiatrist interview with them if I remember right.

Theyre usually one of the 1-3 programs that have soap spots every year. They should have been shut down forever ago

Saint Lucie has a well known rep of severe malignancy with horrible training. Glad they both went unfilled.

 

[Splenda88]

No. HF Allegiance is a snowy desolate dying wasteland, but the faculty interviews like they're the best program in the country . MMI style interviews with barrages of pimping and they have a psychiatrist interview with them if I remember right.

Theyre usually one of the 1-3 programs that have soap spots every year. They should have been shut down forever ago

Saint Lucie has a well known rep of severe malignancy with horrible training. Glad they both went unfilled.

I do have 1 FMG friend who went unmatched in FM and if these two programs call, he will hop on a plane in a second.

 

[RustedFox]

Link?

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

I would also love to know the y filled programs if anyone has the deetz

 

[CajunMedic]

University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, Penn State-Hershey and LSU-Shreveport, were also on the list university-wise that I may, or may not have seen. Plenty of unfilled HCA programs across the South. A couple of the newer ones didn’t get anyone in the match

 

[RustedFox]

Where's the list?

 

[HemorrhagicShock]

It's just a matter of time before EM becomes an IMG heavy specialty. Sure the pendulum may swing back, but that won't be until EM figures out some other blockbuster care venue where we can use our skills, and more importantly, that's unlikely to happen for at least another decade. This means all of us in our early careers (including residents) will have to deal with a steep uphill climb during our peak earning years.

If a medical student is thinking about doing EM they should strongly consider pairing it with one of those dual specialty programs. EM/IM or even one of those new EM/Anesthesia programs. Having that second specialty future-proofs your career to some extent, and gives you quite a few options should you change your mind about EM post-residency.

 

[Splenda88]

Make your $$$ and get the f... out. Anyone who is a doc now should have a 10-yr plan to be financially independent. Meaning live like you are making 1.5-2 times your resident salary for 10 yrs.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

Where's the list?

Seconded

 

[southerndoc]

Where's the list?

Highly doubtful we'll see it. Some users used to post it on SDN a while back, but for some reason nobody ever posts anymore. I wonder if it's from threatened legal action since the unfilled programs aren't supposed to be published.

 

[masterful]

No. HF Allegiance is a snowy desolate dying wasteland, but the faculty interviews like they're the best program in the country . MMI style interviews with barrages of pimping and they have a psychiatrist interview with them if I remember right.

Theyre usually one of the 1-3 programs that have soap spots every year. They should have been shut down forever ago

Saint Lucie has a well known rep of severe malignancy with horrible training. Glad they both went unfilled.

saint lucie told me such sweet nothings during the soap. they almost seduced me. they called me several times. i feel fortunate to land where i did.

 

[RustedFox]

View attachment 352013

Seconded

I really, really wish I would have thought of this as a joke.

Strong work, sir.

 

[alpinism]

Here's the SOAP programs:


Arkansas COM-AR

Unity Health-AR

UCLA Kern-CA

Riverside University Health-CA

St Josephs-CA

Broward Health-FL

HCA Aventura-FL

HCA St Lucie-FL

HCA Kendall-FL

HCA Westside-FL

HCA Brandon-FL

HCA Oak Hill-FL

HCA Ocala-FL

Orange Park Med Ctr-FL

U Miami-Jackson Health System-FL

Coliseum Med Ctrs-GA

SIU SOM Affil Hosps-IL

LSUHSC-Shreveport-LA

Ascension Genesys Hospital-MI

Ascension Macomb-Oakland Hosp-MI

Ascension Providence-MSUCHM-MI

Beaumont Health Farm Hills-MI

Garden City Hospital-MI

Henry Ford Allegiance Health-MI

Henry Ford Wyandotte Hospital-MI

McLaren Health Care Corp-MI

Metro Health-U Michigan Health

Promedica Monroe Hospital-MI

Spectrum Health Lakeland-MI

St Mary Mercy Hospital-MI

Merit Health Wesley-MS

KCU-GME Consortium-MO

Inspira Vineland-NJ

Inspira Mulica Hill-NJ

Valley Health System-NV

Arnot Ogden-NY

Garnet Health-NY

Nuvance Health-NY

SUNY Upstate-NY

St Barnabas Hospital-NY

St Johns Riverside Hospital-NY

University at Buffalo SOM-NY

Campbell University Cape Fear-NC

Campbell University Southeastern-NC

Kettering Health Network-OH

Memorial Health System-OH

Mercy Health-St Ritas Med Ctr-OH

Trinity Health System-OH

University Hospitals Community Consortium-OH

University of Toledo-OH

Wright State UBoonshoft SOM-OH

Oklahoma State Tulsa-OK

Oklahoma State Lawton-OK

Albert Einstein Healthcare-PA

Guthrie/Robert Packer Hospital-PA

Lehigh Valley-PA

Penn State Hershey-PA

St Lukes-Bethlehem-PA

St Vincent-PA

UPMC Hamot-PA

UPMC Harrisburg-PA

Wellspan Health York Hospital-PA

Baylor Scott & White Hospital-TX

HCA Houston Healthcare-TX

Texas Tech U-El Paso

Texas HSC-San Antonio

LewisGale Hospital-VA

Charleston Hospital-WV

 

[bravotwozero]

Wow. There's some decent, very well established programs on that list that didn't fill. Mostly in undesirable locations, but still.

 

[calvinhobbes]

Yeah, can’t believe the NY programs didn’t fill especially Barnabas in the Bronx! Dang

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Here's the SOAP programs:


Arkansas COM-AR

Unity Health-AR

UCLA Kern-CA

Riverside University Health-CA

St Josephs-CA

Broward Health-FL

HCA Aventura-FL

HCA St Lucie-FL

HCA Kendall-FL

HCA Westside-FL

HCA Brandon-FL

HCA Oak Hill-FL

HCA Ocala-FL

Orange Park Med Ctr-FL

U Miami-Jackson Health System-FL

Coliseum Med Ctrs-GA

SIU SOM Affil Hosps-IL

LSUHSC-Shreveport-LA

Ascension Genesys Hospital-MI

Ascension Macomb-Oakland Hosp-MI

Ascension Providence-MSUCHM-MI

Beaumont Health Farm Hills-MI

Garden City Hospital-MI

Henry Ford Allegiance Health-MI

Henry Ford Wyandotte Hospital-MI

McLaren Health Care Corp-MI

Metro Health-U Michigan Health

Promedica Monroe Hospital-MI

Spectrum Health Lakeland-MI

St Mary Mercy Hospital-MI

Merit Health Wesley-MS

KCU-GME Consortium-MO

Inspira Vineland-NJ

Inspira Mulica Hill-NJ

Valley Health System-NV

Arnot Ogden-NY

Garnet Health-NY

Nuvance Health-NY

SUNY Upstate-NY

St Barnabas Hospital-NY

St Johns Riverside Hospital-NY

University at Buffalo SOM-NY

Campbell University Cape Fear-NC

Campbell University Southeastern-NC

Kettering Health Network-OH

Memorial Health System-OH

Mercy Health-St Ritas Med Ctr-OH

Trinity Health System-OH

University Hospitals Community Consortium-OH

University of Toledo-OH

Wright State UBoonshoft SOM-OH

Oklahoma State Tulsa-OK

Oklahoma State Lawton-OK

Albert Einstein Healthcare-PA

Guthrie/Robert Packer Hospital-PA

Lehigh Valley-PA

Penn State Hershey-PA

St Lukes-Bethlehem-PA

St Vincent-PA

UPMC Hamot-PA

UPMC Harrisburg-PA

Wellspan Health York Hospital-PA

Baylor Scott & White Hospital-TX

HCA Houston Healthcare-TX

Texas Tech U-El Paso

Texas HSC-San Antonio

LewisGale Hospital-VA

Charleston Hospital-WV

FYI UM/Jackson did not soap - we’ve got 14 normal spots which we filled in normal match and 1 separate Military spot that we don’t fill through the match. It shows up as an open spot in the NRMP software but it’s not a slot open to the public.

Happens every year, and every year someone thinks we needed to soap lol.

 

[RustedFox]

FYI UM/Jackson did not soap - we’ve got 14 normal spots which we filled in normal match and 1 separate Military spot that we don’t fill through the match. It shows up as an open spot in the NRMP software but it’s not a slot open to the public.

Happens every year, and every year someone thinks we needed to soap lol.

Pretty sure the same happens with U. Toledo. They have 1 dedicated international spot that goes unfilled every year; but they host someone from (wherever) every year.

 

[Angry Birds]

Though I am not myself an FMG --and I also understand why a program would want to prioritize American grads -- I really don't understand the disdain for FMGs in general. I have not seen any difference in their capabilities and I know some of them come from extremely competitive environments. Maybe there is some racism here (against South Asians?), though I am not sure.

As for Caribbean grads, I have also not seen anything to disdain here either, at least those from Ross and St George's. They seem to be on par with everyone else as far as I can tell.

Again, I can understand why a program would want to prioritize students from US medical schools. I'm not saying otherwise. I just don't get the disdain. What strikes me as doubly odd from such elitist disdain is the fact that so many US grads come from very humble undergraduate institutions, which would make one think that such elitism would not exist in such individuals.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Though I am not myself an FMG --and I also understand why a program would want to prioritize American grads -- I really don't understand the disdain for FMGs in general. I have not seen any difference in their capabilities and I know some of them come from extremely competitive environments. Maybe there is some racism here (against South Asians?), though I am not sure.

As for Caribbean grads, I have also not seen anything to disdain here either, at least those from Ross and St George's. They seem to be on par with everyone else as far as I can tell.

Again, I can understand why a program would want to prioritize students from US medical schools. I'm not saying otherwise. I just don't get the disdain. What strikes me as doubly odd from such elitist disdain is the fact that so many US grads come from very humble undergraduate institutions, which would make one think that such elitism would not exist in such individuals.

Human nature. Everyone wants to be the top snowflake. It happens in every Culture And group of people.
i think the usimg thing is because they couldn’t get into a us md or do school.
i think in EM more than any other field it is important to have an idea of where people are. I have worked in places where patients often complain about Indian docs with strong accents. In EM where time is of the essence it’s even more important patients get you. I only post to Indian / Pakistani docs as patients complain about them the most bu this holds true for any doc with a strong accent.
in the end I’m sad that there were 200+ spots filled in the scramble. Next year will be worse.

 

[alpinism]

FYI UM/Jackson did not soap - we’ve got 14 normal spots which we filled in normal match and 1 separate Military spot that we don’t fill through the match. It shows up as an open spot in the NRMP software but it’s not a slot open to the public.

Happens every year, and every year someone thinks we needed to soap lol.

Pretty sure the same happens with U. Toledo. They have 1 dedicated international spot that goes unfilled every year; but they host someone from (wherever) every year.

So apparently there are only a couple spots left that haven't been filled at this point.

If these are really "fake open spots" then all the spots were filled this match cycle.

 

[AlmostAnMD]

Toledo no longer does Saudi match unless someone has heard differently

 

[Fecal_Occult]

Can we penalize the programs that soap'd? Encourage them to decrease their number of residency spots or at the very least improve the quality of their program to become more competitive. Ucla kern should become a 3-yr program. St Joseph's and riverside should probably be cancelled.

 

[nimbus]

Though I am not myself an FMG --and I also understand why a program would want to prioritize American grads -- I really don't understand the disdain for FMGs in general. I have not seen any difference in their capabilities and I know some of them come from extremely competitive environments. Maybe there is some racism here (against South Asians?), though I am not sure.

As for Caribbean grads, I have also not seen anything to disdain here either, at least those from Ross and St George's. They seem to be on par with everyone else as far as I can tell.

Again, I can understand why a program would want to prioritize students from US medical schools. I'm not saying otherwise. I just don't get the disdain. What strikes me as doubly odd from such elitist disdain is the fact that so many US grads come from very humble undergraduate institutions, which would make one think that such elitism would not exist in such individuals.

Some folks don’t realize they’ve won the birth lottery. Medical school admissions is much more competitive in many foreign countries than it is in the USA. Many USMDs would not have gotten into med school if they were born and raised in China, India, Korea, etc.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

What strikes me as doubly odd from such elitist disdain is the fact that so many US grads come from very humble undergraduate institutions, which would make one think that such elitism would not exist in such individuals.

Self concept is distorted by recency bias. For example, i finished at the top of my class at an Ivy and currently work at a well respected buy side finance firm, but will be attending a low tier MD school and have noticed a recent decrease in confidence, especially comparing myself to friends at top schools. Many of the med students at top schools probably have the reverse experience in that they have a sudden boost in their self-esteem (I will avoid calling it elitism because that is subjective imo) when realizing that they are at an elite medical school.

 

[Angry Birds]

Human nature. Everyone wants to be the top snowflake. It happens in every Culture And group of people.
i think the usimg thing is because they couldn’t get into a us md or do school.
i think in EM more than any other field it is important to have an idea of where people are. I have worked in places where patients often complain about Indian docs with strong accents. In EM where time is of the essence it’s even more important patients get you. I only post to Indian / Pakistani docs as patients complain about them the most bu this holds true for any doc with a strong accent.
in the end I’m sad that there were 200+ spots filled in the scramble. Next year will be worse.

This sort of logic is justifying the ignorance and parochialism of a segment of our society, most of whom cannot speak more than one language, have never traveled anywhere, and know next to nothing of the world.
Of course, these hoi polloi can be forgiven for their lack of sophistication and cosmopolitanism, but I don't think the same can be said of fellow doctors with advanced degrees.

On that note, it might surprise people to know that there are many excellent medical universities in the world, outside of America, many of which are insanely competitive due to burgeoning young populations. But, their accent! -- often said, I must say, when their statements are understood or at least when zero attempt is made to understand, quite in contrast to many other parts of the world where polylingualism is the default assumption.

 

[Angry Birds]

Self concept is distorted by recency bias. For example, i finished at the top of my class at an Ivy and currently work at a well respected buy side finance firm, but will be attending a low tier MD school and have noticed a recent decrease in confidence, especially comparing myself to friends at top schools. Many of the med students at top schools probably have the reverse experience in that they have a sudden boost in their self-esteem (I will avoid calling it elitism because that is subjective imo) when realizing that they are at an elite medical school.

I think you might be onto something. Imagine my confusion when someone from a state school and a middling medical school is looking down at someone who went to an elite university in their own country. (To be clear, I am not imputing any value judgment here on "state school" or "middling medical school." I've seen people who went to community college go onto become professors...)

Your story is an illustration of why such elitism is not warranted. As someone with a non-traditional path, it is not surprising that you would struggle to secure a position at a higher-ranked medical school. It clearly does not speak to your intelligence/capability or lack thereof...

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

So apparently there are only a couple spots left that haven't been filled at this point.

If these are really "fake open spots" then all the spots were filled this match cycle.

The UM/JMH spot is still open.

How many total were left after soap? Like 8-9?

 

[GonnaBeADoc2222]

Though I am not myself an FMG --and I also understand why a program would want to prioritize American grads -- I really don't understand the disdain for FMGs in general. I have not seen any difference in their capabilities and I know some of them come from extremely competitive environments. Maybe there is some racism here (against South Asians?), though I am not sure.

As for Caribbean grads, I have also not seen anything to disdain here either, at least those from Ross and St George's. They seem to be on par with everyone else as far as I can tell.

Again, I can understand why a program would want to prioritize students from US medical schools. I'm not saying otherwise. I just don't get the disdain. What strikes me as doubly odd from such elitist disdain is the fact that so many US grads come from very humble undergraduate institutions, which would make one think that such elitism would not exist in such individuals.

Please don't attempt to equate USIMGs with US grads.

 

[alpinism]

The UM/JMH spot is still open.

How many total were left after soap? Like 8-9?

There were supposedly 8 spots but all but 2 have been filled apparently.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

There were supposedly 8 spots but all but 2 have been filled apparently.

Hard to believe people out there are still lining up to enter this field. But here we are.

 

[dannyboy1]

Hard to believe people out there are still lining up to enter this field. But here we are.

Probably the choice was that or unemployment.

 

[Kryptocoin]

It will probably get worse due to the explosion of new medical schools in the last ten years (primarily for-profit DO schools). There is now a twitter campaign to increase the number of residency slots to accommodate the hundreds, if not "thousands", of unmatched applicants. As HCAs have shown, opening a new EM program is far easier.

 

[miacomet]

Anyone who applied for EM this year is a hobby doc or fairly foolish. I don't see a way out of this mess, and I agree with the comment above from @Kryptocoin about the scourge of DO schools (for profit, no standards ASFAIK) and the willing applicants lining up for open admissions medschool.
EM is the canary. Medicine aside from those going to top 20 schools and into fields like urology that protect their own, is imploding, like law and academia.

 

[miacomet]

I do find some amusement, though, in the arrogance of EM as a field (which has shown serious cracks for a decade or more), especially regarding their oh-so-precious SLOEs and obsession with away rotations and other weed-out criteria, and the denial of many a shyster program director that the day of reckoning was nigh. Like, many were completely ostriching and pretending this wouldn't happen.

Now they will take anyone. SLOE or no SLOE. US grad or not. No audition needed.

Ahh, the hubris.