2009 Match Lists

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RandomBlackManX said:
... How can you possibly defend such an untenable position?
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Simple -- (1) Med schools have a MISSION to train doctors. Some explicitly state them, others it's implicit. (2) There is a greater demand for doctors than supply in US med schools. (and no, it's not about a shortage of primary care-- see my posts above on this). So each med school seat is profoundly needed to be used for this "best use", to generate doctors. (3) Ever wonder why med schools force you to answer the "why medicine?" question so frequently in admissions? Because they actually are trying to select people who will go on and become doctors, because they have a mission to generate such physicians.

Thus when a number of people bail on this to go do consulting, the school has come up short in it's mission. A quick google search of Harvard websites indicates that Harvard is actually one of the places with an explicit mission statement. "The mission of Harvard Medical School is to create and nurture a diverse community of the best people committed to leadership in ending human suffering caused by disease." Which is broad enough language that it encompasses medical researchers, but it would be a stretch to say it includes management consultants.
 
Law2Doc said:
And yet I don't see other schools listing multiple people "matching" into management consulting on their Match List... Hmmm. Wonder why. Could it be that it doesn't belong there? Or that it's not a positive thing for the school?

And "why not put it in a match list?" Because IT'S NOT A MATCH. The "match" is a very specific term relating to applying to and then matching into or scrambling into a residency program, run by NRMP. If you didn't get your position through this route, you didn't "match" into it and thus it doesn't belong on a match list. By contrast, the "crappy #20... backup family medicine residency" IS a match. It comes from going through the NRMP procedures and thus BELONGS on a match list. Now you're just being silly saying something that is clearly a product of the match should be given lesser billing because you somehow have a bias toward high paying consulting vs something that MEDICAL SCHOOL WAS ACTUALLY DESIGNED TO DO but perhaps is beneath the typical grad of this particular school.
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A couple points:
1) I mentioned above that many schools will put someone as doing a "research year" in their match list. Clearly, this occurs outside the match. So consulting is not the only non-match-related thing often put into the match list.

2) You always argue that match lists shouldn't be read as indicative of the quality of the school because matching is largely the result of individual interest and achievement. Why then, does this argument fall short of you saying that Harvard is doing such a disservice to its students and the nationwide physician shortage? Could it not be that 5 students this year happened to discover they aren't suited for clinical medicine? Why should this make a comment about how Harvard is doing as a school when 60% of a school's matchlist being comprised of family medicine does not? You will probably respond to this with "well, at least in the latter case they're still becoming physicians", to which I will reply that I am simply referring to individual preference. And the point of a school is to help you do whatever it is YOU want. Besides, again I truly believe it is impossible for an applicant, much less a medical school, to know you really do want to become a doctor until you're on rotations.

I guarantee that you will see probably two students at my school "matching" into consulting next year. I also can guarantee you it's 100% a realization by those students, after doing rotations, that they are not suited for clinical medicine rather than a failure of my school. You can continue to argue to the contrary, and I will continue to not understand the basis for your argument.
 
DrYoda said:
You guys should grab some pitchforks and head towards Boston🙄.
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LOL. I actually have no problem with the school, the students, or the ultimate career choices, just the puffery. This doesn't belong on a match list and really should be having administrative folks concerned about whether they can avoid this in the future, not something they should put onto a list that is generally used as advertising material to premeds, aka bragging. I suspect other schools have their share of folks taking non-physician paths, they just aren't highlighting it in this way (nor should they).
 
MrBurns10 said:
...
2) You always argue that match lists shouldn't be read as indicative of the quality of the school because matching is largely the result of individual interest and achievement. Why then, does this argument fall short of you saying that Harvard is doing such a disservice to its students and the nationwide physician shortage? Could it not be that 5 students this year happened to discover they aren't suited for clinical medicine? Why should this make a comment about how Harvard is doing as a school when 60% of a school's matchlist being comprised of family medicine does not? You will probably respond to this with "well, at least in the latter case they're still becoming physicians", to which I will reply that I am simply referring to individual preference. And the point of a school is to help you do whatever it is YOU want. Besides, again I truly believe it is impossible for an applicant, much less a medical school, to know you really do want to become a doctor until you're on rotations....
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You are missing my point. I have NO problem with these people going on to do what they feel they are most suited to do. I have no problem with you realizing in rotations that you don't belong in medicine. However, when they do this, the school in fact fails in its mission, because those seats were earmarked for folks who were supposed to be "committed to leadership in ending human suffering caused by disease". As management consultants I think it unlikely they will be doing this.

Thus when the school turns around and lists this on it's match list, something the school uses to advertise to premeds, then it is effectively bragging about something which is really a failing (for the school, not the individual). Schools ask the "why medicine?" question in numerous ways throughout the admission process, and want folks to have compelling reasons precisely to not end up with this situation. When they do, it often means the school didn't weed out the folks who didn't fit the mission, or they didn't "wow" the students they took with the wonders of any of the various specialties. There is very low attrition, and it's very rare that folks who finish med school don't go on to do something that fits within the missions of most med schools. So I don't know that I agree with you that it's impossible to know before rotations whether you fit the bill. Most people find this possible. You might not know what kind of doctor you want to be, but by that stage you usually know you want to be a doctor.

Either way, the student isn't to blame. The school might be or might not be, but either way, it shouldn't be putting this in a match list like it's what the school finds wonderful. Their mission statement says otherwise.
 
That HMS matchlist was mighty fresh, almost as fresh as UCSF's, albeit Harvard did keep a lot of their own. What's really impressive is that even the people at the bottom 25% still matched well. That's saying something.
 
flaahless said:
That HMS matchlist was mighty fresh, almost as fresh as UCSF's, albeit Harvard did keep a lot of their own. What's really impressive is that even the people at the bottom 25% still matched well. That's saying something.
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at least post the ucsf list if you gonna subtlely diss harvard :laugh:
 
flaahless said:
That HMS matchlist was mighty fresh, almost as fresh as UCSF's, albeit Harvard did keep a lot of their own. What's really impressive is that even the people at the bottom 25% still matched well. That's saying something.
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Matching well depends on what folks actually wanted (as compared to what they got), and you are assuming who is the bottom 25% based on competitiveness, which is often a bad assumption. For all you know everybody at such a school got their 9th choice program (obviously this is unlikely but there's no way to prove it didn't happen just from the list), as compared to folks at some lower ranked school where maybe everybody got their #1. Even if the list doesn't look as prestigious, it's actually a better match if people get what they wanted. My point is, the data isn't there to put this into the necessary context. So match lists = wrong conclusions much of the time. I'm just saying.
 
A list is just that - a list. I think Law2Doc might be reading a bit too much into something that isn't there.
 
gujuDoc said:
But I don't have an issue so much with the fact that these people decided to leave medicine, just didn't think a match list is the place to list what they are doing if it is not part of the MATCH! That was what weirded me out.
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Law2Doc said:
And "why not put it in a match list?" Because IT'S NOT A MATCH. The "match" is a very specific term relating to applying to and then matching into or scrambling into a residency program, run by NRMP. If you didn't get your position through this route, you didn't "match" into it and thus it doesn't belong on a match list.
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Geez you guys are losing sleep over the literal definition of match list and have spent the whole day fighting about it. Many schools list alternative post-graduate paths i.e., research, year-off, another degree, undecided, as seen in the VCU list above and several others. Would it make you feel that much better if the school listed it as "alumni placement" or something more general like how residency programs present the information? I know I'm curious to see where people go whether or not they obtained the position via NRMP.

Anyway, back to the topic...Anybody have Yale or UCSF's match list?
 
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Law2Doc said:
Matching well depends on what folks actually wanted (as compared to what they got), and you are assuming who is the bottom 25% based on competitiveness, which is often a bad assumption. For all you know everybody at such a school got their 9th choice program (obviously this is unlikely but there's no way to prove it didn't happen just from the list), as compared to folks at some lower ranked school where maybe everybody got their #1. Even if the list doesn't look as prestigious, it's actually a better match if people get what they wanted. My point is, the data isn't there to put this into the necessary context. So match lists = wrong conclusions much of the time. I'm just saying.
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I understand your argument, I really do, but that HMS list is still impressive. A spade's a spade. I wish my 9th choice was gen surg at Mayo. 9th choice or 1st choice, that's still a good look.
 
See below for the Yale 2009 match list and "alternative careers".

.Anesthesiology.
.Beth Israel Medical Center.
.Anesthesiology.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
.Anesthesiology.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
.Anesthesiology.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
. .
. .
.Dermatology.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Dermatology.
.Boston University Medical Center.
.Dermatology.
.McGaw Medical Ctr of Northwestern University.
.Dermatology.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
.Dermatology.
.Jackson Memorial Hospital.
.Dermatology.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
. .
. .
.Diagnostic Radiology.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Diagnostic Radiology.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Diagnostic Radiology.
.Duke University Medical Center.
.Diagnostic Radiology.
.Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.
.Diagnostic Radiology.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Diagnostic Radiology.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
. .
. .
.Emergency Medicine.
.Stanford University Programs.
.Emergency Medicine.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Emergency Medicine.
.UCLA Medical Center.
.Emergency Medicine.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Emergency Medicine.
.Vanderbilt University Medical Center.
. .
. .
.Family Medicine.
.O'Connor Hospital Program.
.Family Medicine.
.Boston University Medical Center.
.Family Medicine.
.Thomas Jefferson University Program.
. .
. .
.General Surgery.
.Oregon Health & Science University Program.
.General Surgery.
.Texas A&M College of Medicine.
.General Surgery.
.Walter Reed Army Medical Center .
.General Surgery.
.Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.
.Surgery-Preliminary.
.Beth Israel Medical Center.
.Vascular Surgery.
.Mount Sinai Hospital.
. .
. .
.Internal Medicine.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Internal Medicine.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Internal Medicine.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
.Internal Medicine.
.Beth Israel Medical Center.
.Internal Medicine.
.McGaw Medical Ctr of Northwestern University.
.Internal Medicine.
.Mount Sinai Hospital.
.Internal Medicine.
.Beth Israel Medical Center.
.Internal Medicine.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
.Internal Medicine.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Internal Medicine.
.Stanford University Programs.
.Internal Medicine.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Internal Medicine.
.University of Washington Affiliated Hospitals.
.Internal Medicine.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
. .
. .
.Internal Medicine/Primary.
.UCLA Medical Center.
.Internal Medicine/Primary.
.University of California – San Francisco.
.Internal Medicine/Primary.
.University of California – San Francisco.
.Internal Medicine/Primary.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Internal Medicine/Primary.
.New York University School of Medicine .
. .
. .
.Medicine / Pediatrics.
.Duke University Medical Center.
.Medicine / Pediatrics.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Medicine / Pediatrics.
.Brigham & Women’s Hosp./Children’s Hosp. of Boston.
. .
. .
.Medicine/Primary-Preliminary.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Medicine/Primary-Preliminary.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Medicine/Primary-Preliminary.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
. .
. .
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.University of Washington Affiliated Hospitals.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Stanford University Programs.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Beth Israel Medical Center.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Greenwich Hospital.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Duke University Medical Center.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Greenwich Hospital.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Greenwich Hospital.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.New York University School of Medicine .
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.University of Utah Affiliated Hospitals.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.McGaw Medical Ctr of Northwestern University.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.New York Presbyterian Hospital – Columbia.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Beth Israel Medical Center.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Hospital of Saint Raphael.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.St. Francis Hospital.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Beth Israel Medical Center.
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.New York University School of Medicine .
.Medicine-Preliminary.
.Greenwich Hospital.
. .
. .
.Neurosurgery.
.McGaw Medical Ctr of Northwestern University.
.Neurosurgery.
.Albert Einstein College/Montefiore Medical Ctr.
.Neurosurgery.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Neurosurgery.
.Johns Hopkins Hospital.
.Neurosurgery.
.New York Presbyterian Hospital – Cornell.
.Neurosurgery.
.Tufts Medical Center.
. .
. .
.Neurology.
.Massachusetts Gen. Hosp. / Brigham & Women's Hospital.
.Neurology.
.New York Presbyterian Hospital – Columbia.
.Neurology.
.St. Joseph's Hospital and Medical Center.
. .
. .
.Obstetrics and Gynecology.
.Stanford University Programs.
.Obstetrics and Gynecology.
.Kaiser Permanente Medical Center.
.Obstetrics and Gynecology.
.Boston University Medical Center.
.Obstetrics and Gynecology.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Obstetrics and Gynecology.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Obstetrics and Gynecology.
.University of California – San Francisco.
. .
. .
.Ophthalmology.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Ophthalmology.
.University of Southern California .
.Ophthalmology.
.New York Presbyterian Hospital – Columbia.
.Ophthalmology.
.New York University School of Medicine .
. .
. .
.Orthopaedic Surgery.
.Howard University Program.
.Orthopaedic Surgery.
.National Naval Medical Center.
.Orthopaedic Surgery.
.Vanderbilt University Medical Center.
.Orthopaedic Surgery.
.Rush University Medical Center.
. .
. .
.Otolaryngology.
.Massachusetts Eye and Ear Infirmary.
. .
. .
.Pediatrics.
.Children’s Hospital of Los Angeles.
.Pediatrics.
.Children’s Hospital of Boston.
.Pediatrics.
.University of California – San Francisco.
.Pediatrics.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
.Pediatrics/Primary.
.Mount Sinai Hospital.
. .
. .
.Plastic Surgery.
.University of Toronto.
.Plastic Surgery.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
. .
. .
.Psychiatry.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
.Psychiatry.
.Harvard Longwood Program.
.Psychiatry.
.Massachusetts General Hospital.
. .
. .
.Radiation Oncology.
.Brigham and Women’s Hospital.
.Radiation Oncology.
.University of Chicago Medical Center.
.Radiation Oncology.
.Yale-New Haven Hospital.
.Radiation Oncology.
.Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center.
. .
. .
.Transitional.
.Hospital of Saint Raphael.
.Transitional.
.University of Hawaii.
.Transitional.
.Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center.
.Transitional.
.Flushing Hospital Medical Center.
.Transitional.
.Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center.
. .
. .
.Internal Medicine/Medical Oncology.
.University Hospital of Basel.
Alternative Careers
.Post-Doctoral Scholar.
.University of California – San Francisco.
.Postgraduate - Medical Anthropology.
.Management Consulting.
.McKinsey & Company.
 
Wow, Yale almost looks better than Harvard.
 
I can't pretend that seeing those consulting positions on the Harvard match list didn't weird me out, but there are going to be people like that at every school. Moreover, a big reason schools have match lists, I would think, is to let all the graduating med students know what their classmates are doing. In that sense, it is useful to know that so and so will be spending the next few years working in Bain's Boston office or whatever.

Also that comment about 20th place family medicine residency was pretty low. Not the same at all.
 
flaahless said:
I understand your argument, I really do, but that ... list is still impressive. A spade's a spade. I wish my 9th choice was .... 9th choice or 1st choice, that's still a good look.
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While I don't disagree with the specific program you mentioned, there are some very prominent med schools with some very malignant programs in certain specialties (I won't say which, but when one is meeting with a mentor during the application stage, one often may hear about them. Malignancy comes from the top down and most academics in the field know who the SOBs are and have heard how they treat their underlings). Places where they work you like a dog (sometimes in violation of the rules) and treat you abusively and like crap can be found among the more prestigious programs as often as the less prestigious. The folks on pre-allo won't likely know which they are. And yet this is the demographic that spends the most time reading match lists. In fact people going into other residency specialties often won't likely know which they are. And these are programs where you will have a top ranked med school on your certificate when you finish.

So it's very dangerous to assume that somebody matching into XYZ school affiliated program per se had a good match just because that school is prestigious, and that's what I'm trying to discourage on pre-allo. For all you know, the program is malignant, they didn't really want to go there, and ended up with it. Looks good on paper but you wouldn't want to be there if you had any better options. For that person, match day blew. And that's precisely the kind of place that folks on here sometimes look at a match, count up the top schools or specialties and get fooled into thinking looks good.

As should be obvious from this thread, all match lists have their amazing looking matches. I think the only thing you can glean from a thread like this is that all the schools mentioned in this thread seem to be adequate launching pads for folks in multiple specialties and to multiple programs. The rest is largely about student choice -- did they want to go into X specialty, did they want to stay in Y region. I don't think you can read much else into the lists.
 
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scarletgirl777 said:
I can't pretend that seeing those consulting positions on the Harvard match list didn't weird me out, but there are going to be people like that at every school. ...
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Maybe 1-2 will go into non-medical, non-research fields. More than that is a lot, and pretty unusual for most schools. For those of you who want to read things into match lists, I wouldn't overlook this kernel. It's actually a rarity for folks to get through 4 years of med school and leave the industry altogether. And the smart people often do a year of residency first, just to leave the door open to medicine in case they change their minds, or in case in a bad economy suddenly management consulting isn't in as much of a demand (whereas medicine is more recession-proof; people will always still need medical care, but companies won't always need consultants, who are an easy expense to knock off the books). It's very hard to get a first year residency coming from several years out of med school compared to coming from med school, but easier to find something if you are at least licensed and have done an internship year. So that's a more favorable jumping point, actually.

At any rate, we have done this side topic to death.
 
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Did anyone ever get UTSW's match list? I'd really like to see it. Thanks!
 
Law2Doc said:
While I don't disagree with the specific program you mentioned, there are some very prominent med schools with some very malignant programs in certain specialties (I won't say which, but when one is meeting with a mentor during the application stage, one often may hear about them. Malignancy comes from the top down and most academics in the field know who the SOBs are and have heard how they treat their underlings). Places where they work you like a dog (sometimes in violation of the rules) and treat you abusively and like crap can be found among the more prestigious programs as often as the less prestigious. The folks on pre-allo won't likely know which they are. And yet this is the demographic that spends the most time reading match lists. In fact people going into other residency specialties often won't likely know which they are. And these are programs where you will have a top ranked med school on your certificate when you finish.
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While I agree with you to a certain extent about premeds not knowing which programs are prestigious in a given field, I've seen you make this particular argument before and I've never really understood your reasoning. Sure, there are programs that are malignant, but it doesn't change the fact that many of them are prestigious and that people want to go there for their resume value. A lot of these programs don't fall very far on their rank list because of their prestige and the fact that so many applicants would be willing to work 100 hours a week for the name alone. So, at least in my opinion, it's probably not too common where an applicant who had the ability to be ranked to match at a prestigious residency would fall to #9 on their list (though this does happen sometimes).

Anyway, my apologies to all for the diversion. 🙂
 
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Hey,

1. When you match into a transitional year what exactly does that mean? Is that a nice way of saying you didn't match?

2. I've noticed a lot of regional bias in thses list. For example, UCLA had a majority of their students match either to UCLA or another "west coast" hospital not far from UCLA. How common is this? If I were to go to an west coast medical school would that decrease my chance of getting matched into a east coast residency? I'm guessing the list appears this way because there may be some bias in students attendeing medical schools that are close to home and also wanting to do a residency close to home as well.

Any thoughts? Thanks!
 
PlatinumPenny said:
Hey,

1. When you match into a transitional year what exactly does that mean? Is that a nice way of saying you didn't match?

2. I've noticed a lot of regional bias in thses list. For example, UCLA had a majority of their students match either to UCLA or another "west coast" hospital not far from UCLA. How common is this? If I were to go to an west coast medical school would that decrease my chance of getting matched into a east coast residency? I'm guessing the list appears this way because there may be some bias in students attendeing medical schools that are close to home and also wanting to do a residency close to home as well.

Any thoughts? Thanks!
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1)For a lot of specialties, people start as PGY2s so they have to do a transitional or prelim year before starting there actual residency (Ophtho or Rads or whatever). Others may only match to a transitional year, and this usual means they didnt match into their specialty of choice. So they do this transitional year with hopes of better luck next year.

2)There is regional bias. All else equal an east coast residency will most likely accept an east coast student...thats not to say you cant match to the east coast from a west coast student, it might just be slightly more difficult. Also alot of people from california tend to want to stay in california, so thats not saying a UCLA grad couldnt match to Cornell or whereve, they just prefered Cali forwhatever reason.
 
PlatinumPenny said:
Hey,

1. When you match into a transitional year what exactly does that mean? Is that a nice way of saying you didn't match?

2. I've noticed a lot of regional bias in thses list. For example, UCLA had a majority of their students match either to UCLA or another "west coast" hospital not far from UCLA. How common is this? If I were to go to an west coast medical school would that decrease my chance of getting matched into a east coast residency? I'm guessing the list appears this way because there may be some bias in students attendeing medical schools that are close to home and also wanting to do a residency close to home as well.

Any thoughts? Thanks!
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A transitional year is very much a match often a desirable one,as a year prior to starting a derm,optho or rads residency.
People from CA generally want to stay there if possible so thats why so many CA grads stay instate.They could go elsewhere if they want to.There is no problem with going east coast if you want.Applicants from all over the US fight for California residency slots, they are very competitive.
 
what's so good about california residency slots?
 
MrBurns10 said:
While ...I've seen you make this particular argument before and I've never really understood your reasoning. Sure, there are programs that are malignant, but it doesn't change the fact that many of them are prestigious and that people want to go there for their resume value. ...
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Most people actually don't want to go to programs that are malignant. They may rank them if that's where they got interviewed, and figure they can tough it out and at least get something n the resume, but it's usually not their first choice. Nobody throws themselves into a bad situation just for resume value otherwise. However someone in pre-allo unknowingly will see a big name place on a match list and think, "gee what a good match". Because they don't know any better. But they are wrong.
That's my reasoning. Until you know what places are good vs malignant in a given specialty, you can't even interpret this kind of info on a match list.
 
SDN2013 said:
what's so good about california? Other than weather.
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It's a great state.

You can go snowboarding 1 day then go to the beach the next or the same day. The weather is great. It doesn't snow by the beaches. You can go swimming in the ocean any time of year and be relatively comfortable.

The drivers are so much better than in Wisconsin. I've seen insane drivers in WI pulling tricks that would never occur in CA.

There's stuff to do.

It's too bad I left CA for HI when I was just learning all about the stuff there is to do there. I never knew what I would be missing by leaving Orange County.

ChubbyChaser said:
The weather isnt that great..
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Yes, it is. I much prefer California weather to Hawaii.
 
SDN2013 said:
then what's so good about california? I mean, they have wildfires like every summer, and get taxed like crazy.
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I never said cali was great....the only thing I like about it is the beach and mountains.
 
SDN2013 said:
then what's so good about california? I mean, they have wildfires like every summer, and get taxed like crazy.
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Wildfires are a part of the fire cycle which we studied in 5th grade (in CA), it's natural -- doesn't mean they don't suck. If they'd take care of the brush, it'd be decent, but the problem is there are sooo many houses that they try to keep the fires away, then the brush builds up, then it turns into a disaster.

But, for everyone who wants to move to CA... CA sucks, don't go there. I'm a native and want to go back.
 
Ashers said:
The drivers are so much better than in Wisconsin. I've seen insane drivers in WI pulling tricks that would never occur in CA.
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I think you mean Illinois drivers IN Wisconsin.
 
Heidi Klum:

heidi_klum.jpg


And that's quite a modest taste of her.
 
Doctor&Geek said:
Heidi Klum:



And that's quite a modest taste of her.
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I see someone better looking every 20 seconds walking down the streets at my undergrad

What does she do? Model? Singer? Actress?
 
I wouldn't trust wiki if I were you, considering that ANYONE can edit it.
 
dynezxice said:
I wouldn't trust wiki if I were you, considering that ANYONE can edit it.
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idk 99% of the time wiki is pretty accurate. Contrary to popular belief, they do have moderators who keep track of what people post.
 
Law2Doc said:
Most people actually don't want to go to programs that are malignant. They may rank them if that's where they got interviewed, and figure they can tough it out and at least get something n the resume, but it's usually not their first choice. Nobody throws themselves into a bad situation just for resume value otherwise. However someone in pre-allo unknowingly will see a big name place on a match list and think, "gee what a good match". Because they don't know any better. But they are wrong.
That's my reasoning. Until you know what places are good vs malignant in a given specialty, you can't even interpret this kind of info on a match list.
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You are assuming a pretty high rate of malignancy to cloud our match list judgment. I get your point, I just don't think it's enough to completely throw away the use of a match list. Most people get their #1 or #2. What percent of applicants do you think rank a malignant program #1 or #2? Making things worse, malignant to you might be benign to someone else.

The real problem is not being able to quantify how competitive a program is and just how much your medical school helped you get that position. That's what people want to know: If I go to school A, will it improve my shot at residency X?
 
One question I have is this (seeming, in my mind) contradiction:
1. It is said that the people in different schools really aren't that different, even when there is a big difference in rankings. Though I do not attend multiple schools, I have enough friends elsewhere to think that this seems right. There are very intelligent people spread out in the many medical schools. Thus, it seems to follow that people in one school do not do that much better on the boards or get better recommendations than students at another school.
Yet:
2. There is an unquestionable difference between the places that people match from different schools. While certainly the specialties people choose are based on what they want to do with their lives, and locations and programs of course are also due to preference in many cases, it is still unreasonable to compare the match list of Harvard to that of a much lower ranked school and say that they are equivalent in the competitiveness of their applicants. It cannot be that year after year, Harvard students disproportionately "prefer" to do their residencies at the programs that are hardest to get into. Again, people can match anywhere from anywhere, but the numbers that match at top programs are not evenly distributed. Looking at who gets their "first choice" is misleading as well because I have some friends who matched at one of their top 2 or 3 choices, but this was after they were denied interviews at their 10 top programs, so these choices were really much lower on the list.
So what I am saying (and I am sure someone will pick this apart, which is what I am hoping because I don't understand) is how can the people at different schools - let's say Harvard and low-ranked school X - be fairly comparable in terms of board scores, general fabulousness, etc. - yet the graduates of Harvard seem to be able to snag spots at some of the most competitive programs year after year to a higher degree than students from other schools. It seems like the school name must matter a great deal. And I get the idea that some programs are more malignant than others and thus the big name might not be as desirable as a layperson might think, but it does not follow that all these highly ranked programs in certain specialties (like places that are 1, 2, 3 in the US News hospital rankings for certain specialties) are disproportionately more malignant than those lesser known programs. One would imagine malignancy is fairly spread out, like anything else is, so you should be able to look at program prestige with a broad brush and know what is more competitive to get into.
 
as7 said:
One question I have is this (seeming, in my mind) contradiction:
1. It is said that the people in different schools really aren't that different, even when there is a big difference in rankings. Though I do not attend multiple schools, I have enough friends elsewhere to think that this seems right. There are very intelligent people spread out in the many medical schools. Thus, it seems to follow that people in one school do not do that much better on the boards or get better recommendations than students at another school.
Yet:
2. There is an unquestionable difference between the places that people match from different schools. While certainly the specialties people choose are based on what they want to do with their lives, and locations and programs of course are also due to preference in many cases, it is still unreasonable to compare the match list of Harvard to that of a much lower ranked school and say that they are equivalent in the competitiveness of their applicants. It cannot be that year after year, Harvard students disproportionately "prefer" to do their residencies at the programs that are hardest to get into. Again, people can match anywhere from anywhere, but the numbers that match at top programs are not evenly distributed. Looking at who gets their "first choice" is misleading as well because I have some friends who matched at one of their top 2 or 3 choices, but this was after they were denied interviews at their 10 top programs, so these choices were really much lower on the list.
So what I am saying (and I am sure someone will pick this apart, which is what I am hoping because I don't understand) is how can the people at different schools - let's say Harvard and low-ranked school X - be fairly comparable in terms of board scores, general fabulousness, etc. - yet the graduates of Harvard seem to be able to snag spots at some of the most competitive programs year after year to a higher degree than students from other schools. It seems like the school name must matter a great deal. And I get the idea that some programs are more malignant than others and thus the big name might not be as desirable as a layperson might think, but it does not follow that all these highly ranked programs in certain specialties (like places that are 1, 2, 3 in the US News hospital rankings for certain specialties) are disproportionately more malignant than those lesser known programs. One would imagine malignancy is fairly spread out, like anything else is, so you should be able to look at program prestige with a broad brush and know what is more competitive to get into.
Click to expand...
I have noticed that contradiction as well. Either the students are different or the schools are different or both (even if that difference does not equal better). It can't just be consistent random chance (an oxymoron).
 
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