2012 APPIC Internship Application Thread

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These are indeed great stories to hear. However, just keep in mind that what CAN turn out to be a be benefit to many, can't and wont apply to everyone.

Some of us (myself actually...and I did match last year thank goodness) are probably a couple years older than than mean grad student and have a wife, a young family, and a MORTGAGE payment to think about (not to mention saving for retirement and college funds). Hanging around another year on 15k stipend, working for free, and putting off growing your family arent very pleasant options for people's lives...even if they do help your career a bit.

Totally agree.

I get that you're trying to point out the negative impact that psych training has on students' lives and attempting to empathize with it but I think your statements just add to the free-floating stress about not matching ("Oh man, it's awful, a real burden not to match.").

Keep in mind that many people's families (just like yours would have, most likely) will support someone who doesn't match, emotionally and probably financially to some degree. I have put off starting a family for a year and a half now due to not being sure what would happen with matching. It is ...annoying... but if waiting were truly a problem for me, I wouldn't have made the choice to put it off. I've got a husband and a mortgage. We're still paying the bills.

Lots of people who are unmatched get paying jobs, finish their dissertations, and sometimes get licensed at the masters level. It seems like having an adult "gap year" to pursue self-improvement before moving on. Have you ever heard someone who was unmatched say that the year they had was a waste of time or just awful, in hindsight? I never have. I think the vast majority of people make the best of it, even if it stings at first.

Well, then let me be the first. Not matching last year was terrible for me. I'm not going into all the details on this board, but it has been awful. My degree being up in the air until matching is a ridiculous circumstance. For some people, maybe not matching ended up being "better" but I suspect many choose to consider it as better because they desire a positive spin on something they couldn't control.

If someone participated in the match, it's because they WANTED to match. I haven't heard of anyone getting a bunch of interviews and deciding not to rank any sites because they wanted instead to "get licensed at the masters level, work on self improvement, get supported by their family, and put off starting their own family."

Why do you think their is so much outrage over the imbalance? If that year off and the uncertainty of matching was so great, people wouldn't be up in arms over the whole process. So let's be real, not matching is bad. Unfortunately, there is not a damned thing we can do about now, but try again. The world is not going to end, but I'm perfectly comfortable with saying not matching has been a horrible experience.
 
Totally agree.



Well, then let me be the first. Not matching last year was terrible for me. I'm not going into all the details on this board, but it has been awful. My degree being up in the air until matching is a ridiculous circumstance. For some people, maybe not matching ended up being "better" but I suspect many choose to consider it as better because they desire a positive spin on something they couldn't control.

If someone participated in the match, it's because they WANTED to match. I haven't heard of anyone getting a bunch of interviews and deciding not to rank any sites because they wanted instead to "get licensed at the masters level, work on self improvement, get supported by their family, and put off starting their own family."

Why do you think their is so much outrage over the imbalance? If that year off and the uncertainty of matching was so great, people wouldn't be up in arms over the whole process. So let's be real, not matching is bad. Unfortunately, there is not a damned thing we can do about now, but try again. The world is not going to end, but I'm perfectly comfortable with saying not matching has been a horrible experience.

I didn't match last year. My program tends to get 100% match rate. I have 13 publications, 70k in research grants, a page of awards on my CV. I did pracs in Uni CCs including specialized population and assessment experiences, and in primary care at a VA. I had no geographic restriction (actually I think THAT killed me, because I was cutting out sites that were a good fit to make APPIC's recommended 15 sites... didn't make that mistake this year).

It wasn't that bad. I nailed out a few more pubs and got more experiences. I'll be done my diss before I leave to whereever I match this year. But, still, it's a year of opportunity cost, if nothing else, in which I'm making $20k instead of $70k.

Competitive students still get squeezed out by the imbalance. When there are only APA-accredited spots for 56% of applicants, this will continue.

Sign the petition. 🙂
 
Well, then let me be the first. Not matching last year was terrible for me. I'm not going into all the details on this board, but it has been awful. My degree being up in the air until matching is a ridiculous circumstance. For some people, maybe not matching ended up being "better" but I suspect many choose to consider it as better because they desire a positive spin on something they couldn't control.

If someone participated in the match, it's because they WANTED to match. I haven't heard of anyone getting a bunch of interviews and deciding not to rank any sites because they wanted instead to "get licensed at the masters level, work on self improvement, get supported by their family, and put off starting their own family."

Why do you think their is so much outrage over the imbalance? If that year off and the uncertainty of matching was so great, people wouldn't be up in arms over the whole process. So let's be real, not matching is bad. Unfortunately, there is not a damned thing we can do about now, but try again. The world is not going to end, but I'm perfectly comfortable with saying not matching has been a horrible experience.

And you're still here?!

That's my point.

I don't know why you think I'm saying it's a pleasant or better experience not to match. It's not. I would have rather matched last year. But I have enjoyed this past year and what I've done with it in place of internship.

Not matching is not the end of the world and most people make something positive out of it because most people do not want to be miserable. (Studies confirm that people return to their baseline happiness/satisfaction after negative and positive events. Not matching is another place that this baseline turns up.) If you don't match, you're in a bit of a limbo and it's up to you what you want to do with it. It's definitely what you make of it. You have chosen to have an entirely horrible experience, apparently. Others make different choices.

There's outrage over the imbalance because, I think, it hints at future difficulty finding a job as a psychologist due to increasing numbers of trainees. It doesn't bode well for the field as a whole and it makes the APA look unresponsive/unproductive.

Re: KD, I completely agree, people who don't match will have negative emotions and that's normal and fine. I'm just saying that there is a bright side for most people once you "get back on the horse" after having those feelings and thoughts.
 
And you're still here?!

That's my point.

I don't know why you think I'm saying it's a pleasant or better experience not to match. It's not. I would have rather matched last year. But I have enjoyed this past year and what I've done with it in place of internship.

Not matching is not the end of the world and most people make something positive out of it because most people do not want to be miserable. (Studies confirm that people return to their baseline happiness/satisfaction after negative and positive events. Not matching is another place that this baseline turns up.) If you don't match, you're in a bit of a limbo and it's up to you what you want to do with it. It's definitely what you make of it. You have chosen to have an entirely horrible experience, apparently. Others make different choices.

There's outrage over the imbalance because, I think, it hints at future difficulty finding a job as a psychologist due to increasing numbers of trainees. It doesn't bode well for the field as a whole and it makes the APA look unresponsive/unproductive.

Re: KD, I completely agree, people who don't match will have negative emotions and that's normal and fine. I'm just saying that there is a bright side for most people once you "get back on the horse" after having those feelings and thoughts.

Wow, way to totally invalidate my experience and assume I'm coping negatively.
 
Totally agree.

Well, then let me be the first. Not matching last year was terrible for me. I'm not going into all the details on this board, but it has been awful. My degree being up in the air until matching is a ridiculous circumstance. For some people, maybe not matching ended up being "better" but I suspect many choose to consider it as better because they desire a positive spin on something they couldn't control.

If someone participated in the match, it's because they WANTED to match. I haven't heard of anyone getting a bunch of interviews and deciding not to rank any sites because they wanted instead to "get licensed at the masters level, work on self improvement, get supported by their family, and put off starting their own family."

Why do you think their is so much outrage over the imbalance? If that year off and the uncertainty of matching was so great, people wouldn't be up in arms over the whole process. So let's be real, not matching is bad. Unfortunately, there is not a damned thing we can do about now, but try again. The world is not going to end, but I'm perfectly comfortable with saying not matching has been a horrible experience.

This is my first time applying so I haven't had a matching experience one way or another, but I think this was very well said.
 
Wow, way to totally invalidate my experience and assume I'm coping negatively.

I'm not saying you're coping negatively, I don't know how you're coping. I'm also not invalidating your experience, though I'm sorry you feel that I am. I'm saying you've had a horrible experience this past year, like you said, and that that is due to at least some choices under your control. I believe, match or not, it's all what you make of it.

One week left! Good luck everyone!:luck:
 
I didn't match last year. My program tends to get 100% match rate. I have 13 publications, 70k in research grants, a page of awards on my CV. I did pracs in Uni CCs including specialized population and assessment experiences, and in primary care at a VA. I had no geographic restriction (actually I think THAT killed me, because I was cutting out sites that were a good fit to make APPIC's recommended 15 sites... didn't make that mistake this year).

It wasn't that bad. I nailed out a few more pubs and got more experiences. I'll be done my diss before I leave to whereever I match this year. But, still, it's a year of opportunity cost, if nothing else, in which I'm making $20k instead of $70k.

Competitive students still get squeezed out by the imbalance. When there are only APA-accredited spots for 56% of applicants, this will continue.

Sign the petition. 🙂

Wow. I was coping effectively with the waiting prior to reading this...:uhno:
 
Wow. I was coping effectively with the waiting prior to reading this...:uhno:

Haha, yeah, I think this is a great example of what I was trying to say a few months ago, about how the current internship application system doesn't always reward qualified students. It is pretty much luck of the draw. Until you go through the process yourself, you can't really understand how broken it is (even if you don't experience the negative, maybe you still get the feeling that something is wrong with it?). I used to think, "the unmatched people probably did something wrong somewhere along the line," even if I knew they were great candidates, I'd think they had a glaring typo or just SOMETHING. But the blame, in my opinion, belongs on the system. Sign the petition!
 
Haha, yeah, I think this is a great example of what I was trying to say a few months ago, about how the current internship application system doesn't always reward qualified students. It is pretty much luck of the draw. Until you go through the process yourself, you can't really understand how broken it is (even if you don't experience the negative, maybe you still get the feeling that something is wrong with it?). I used to think, "the unmatched people probably did something wrong somewhere along the line," even if I knew they were great candidates, I'd think they had a glaring typo or just SOMETHING. But the blame, in my opinion, belongs on the system. Sign the petition!

Yep. Said this before...not matching no longer infers that you either had deficits in training or personality pathology, as it used 15 years ago.

There was a poster on here a few years ago who was addressing the growing outrage by posting about some of the interview deficits some of us might have, and how he did a prolonged tutoring session with a outstanding applicant who couldn't sell herself and her experiences to save her life. My thought at the time was, well Jesus Christ pal, that's a great lecture for people going into the job market, but why should I need the skills of a used car salesman to get the one-year internship placement for my degree!? It just never made any sense to me, and as long as I can remember, people just kept saying "this is the way it is."🙄
 
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i didn't match last year, either. also from a competitive apa accredited program with a previously 100% match rate. i was geographically restricted and didn't apply to as many places as i could (applied to 7, got 4 interviews, ranked 3). i have a handful of publications, fantastic clinical and research training, and am personable/non-crazy. sometimes things just go badly, and you don't really know why. i think my not matching reduced some of the pressure on other students in my program who'll enter the match in future years, so that's something. i certainly enjoyed my year and used it well, but i wish i had matched instead. i'd like to be further along in my career and i'd like to have multiple offspring before it's too late. this year, i applied to many more programs and didn't limit myself geographically. unfortunately, if i do match this year, it means i'll be a single parent for half of the year that my spouse can't be with me, which sucks for everyone. it will be really, really hard if i don't match, again, but i already know that i'll be able to use the time to finish my dissertation and do some other pleasant life things. and although it still stings that i didn't match last year, i do know it's not the end of the world. so, some good, some bad. i agree that it ends up being what you make of it, like any challenge in life.
 
I for one really appreciate hearing from folks who didn't match last year - positive spin, realistic spin, negative spin, whatever. They're all valid experiences. I think what is helpful to me is having some sense of the humanity behind the numbers, rather than a vague number of applicants out there who don't match, especially given that some of that humanity this year may be reading these posts right now. I can't imagine getting to a place of feeling like not matching was a great thing, but I respect people's ability to make the best of a less-than-ideal situation and continuing to move forward with their lives in productive ways. I hope to be able to apply that attitude and wisdom to my own experience should I be among the 25% this round. Thanks so much for sharing, folks, and best of luck to us first-timers as well as the tough and persistent folks stepping up to the plate once again this year. 🙂
 
The program I attend has approximately 15-20 students applying for the Match every year and through phase I and phase II or what used to be known as clearinghouse, they report an 84% match rate. The students who do not match in either phases normally find local internship sites but no one has had to wait an additional year to re-apply for internship.

I understand that many APA accredited programs require an APA accredited internship and I believe this was not a problem for most students until four or five years ago. Students from non APA accredited programs Match with APA accredited programs and this limits the number of spots for APA accredited program students.

Could APPIC or APA require that only APA accredited students be allowed to apply to APA accredited internship sites? Would there be enough APA accredited sites for all of the APA accredited student programs or would there still be a shortage? I've known of some non APA accredited sites that are very high quality but for some reason or another do not seek APA accreditation. I've known of PhD school psychology students that are not APA accredited but they apply to clinical psychology sites that are APA accredited and get selected over students from clinical psychology programs because of their emphasis on psychological assessment and evaluations with children and adolescents. Does there need to be greater specificity related to clinical psychology, counseling psychology, and school psychology students only being allowed to apply for sites that only accept students from each training focus? I've known students in a counseling psychology PhD program that does not require projective assessment courses getting into an APA accredited internship site that uses projectives, so they have to learn projectives during their internship training year.

It just seems that there could be additional guidelines in place specifying who is allowed to apply to distinct sites, as in specific clinical, counseling, or school psychology designated internship sites without cross breeding of programs with sites. There are clinical and counseling psychology students who apply to school districts that are APA accredited sites, and they have to learn achievement tests and other behavioral assessment tools used in a school setting during their internship year. Some of them successfully complete their internship and then shift to working with an adult population in private practice during their career. It would seem to be a basic requirement to have school psychology focus to be placed in a school district site. Similarly, it would seem that a student with school psychology focus would not be allowed to apply to a clinical site at a major medical center or community mental health center.

Searching for solutions to the problems of the shortage and my guess is there may need to be some sort of requirement for APA accredited sites to select only APA accredited students and to have a seperate match for students from non APA accredited programs to select from non APA accredited internship sites. Additionally, specific sites may need to only accept applications from clinical, counseling, or school psychology students based on the site area of focus as under current standards a clinical or counseling student can do a a school psych internship and vice versa, a school psych student do an clinical or counseling psych internship.

I have interest in working in a hospital setting and a number of hospital internships are high quality but are not APA accredited and have never applied for APA accreditation, despite most of their staff being from APA accredited programs. It seems that some sites only want to use the APPIC match process without any interest in becoming APA accredited sites because of the increased paperwork and requirement for a stipend of $18,000 or higher. Does there need to be a different process for non APA accredited programs and students that is similar to the CAPPIC in California?
 
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...Could APPIC or APA require that only APA accredited students be allowed to apply to APA accredited internship sites?...

Yes. This idea has been put forward many times. I think it might happen as the model licensing act changes t require accreditation at doctoral and internship levels (why register for the match and shoot for an accredited internship when you're already shot in the foot by being from a non-accred doc program?).
 
Yes. This idea has been put forward many times. I think it might happen as the model licensing act changes t require accreditation at doctoral and internship levels (why register for the match and shoot for an accredited internship when you're already shot in the foot by being from a non-accred doc program?).

The irony is that APA accreditation is not required in most States for licensure requirements. There are many non APA accredited sites that are high quality and attract APA accredited program students to their sites that do not require the APA accredited internship. Even if a new model licensure law is passed would it be required for all States to follow this law?

I would vote to have a different process for APA accredited program students and non APA accredited program students because both students may become licensed and successful psychologists. Allow APA accredited students to only apply to APA accredited sites and non APA accredited students to only apply to non APA accredited sites.
 
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The irony is that APA accreditation is not required in most States for licensure requirements. There are many non APA accredited sites that are high quality and attract APA accredited program students to their sites that do not require the APA accredited internship. Even if a new model licensure law is passed would it be required for all States to follow this law?

As far as I know, State boards can do whatever they want. They could license someone with a degree from Bob's House of Therapy if they wanted to. They do, I think, listen to what APA says on the matter. As I understand it the change is mostly to make psych on par with every other health profession, which ALL (from massage to medicine) require completion of accredited training. Not doing this seriously impairs our ability to lobby for money.
 
As far as I know, State boards can do whatever they want. They could license someone with a degree from Bob's House of Therapy if they wanted to. They do, I think, listen to what APA says on the matter. As I understand it the change is mostly to make psych on par with every other health profession, which ALL (from massage to medicine) require completion of accredited training. Not doing this seriously impairs our ability to lobby for money.

It is my understanding that there is not uniform acceptance at the State level licensure to adopt or follow the APA standard. In some States many psychologists are not members of APA or even the State Psychological Association. There are even groups of psychologist wanting to be licensed under the Medical Board and opposed to current licensure laws. Many professional psychologist are members of a different association than APA devoted to independent practice of psychology. With all of these factors, how in the world would States be required to adopt APA model licensure Act?
 
I didn't match last year. My program tends to get 100% match rate. I have 13 publications, 70k in research grants, a page of awards on my CV. I did pracs in Uni CCs including specialized population and assessment experiences, and in primary care at a VA. I had no geographic restriction (actually I think THAT killed me, because I was cutting out sites that were a good fit to make APPIC's recommended 15 sites... didn't make that mistake this year).

It wasn't that bad. I nailed out a few more pubs and got more experiences. I'll be done my diss before I leave to whereever I match this year. But, still, it's a year of opportunity cost, if nothing else, in which I'm making $20k instead of $70k.

Competitive students still get squeezed out by the imbalance. When there are only APA-accredited spots for 56% of applicants, this will continue.

Sign the petition. 🙂

This is *exactly* the point I think that people don't get about this whole process until they don't match themselves. We want to believe that there are still some flaws in the people who don't match, that the system still won't fail us.

Okay, I didn't have 13 publications when I didn't match, but I did have a handful, and came from a good, competitive accredited PhD program. I had a variety of in depth clinical experiences, great reference letters, amazing research funding, and a good number of interviews. People later told me that not matching had been the reality check for the two cohorts below me that this could really happen to them, because I was thought to be a shoe-in.

Like said above, with these numbers, it isn't just the bottom of the barrel being left behind.

And, ditto, sign the petition!!!
 
This is *exactly* the point I think that people don't get about this whole process until they don't match themselves. We want to believe that there are still some flaws in the people who don't match, that the system still won't fail us.

Okay, I didn't have 13 publications when I didn't match, but I did have a handful, and came from a good, competitive accredited PhD program. I had a variety of in depth clinical experiences, great reference letters, amazing research funding, and a good number of interviews. People later told me that not matching had been the reality check for the two cohorts below me that this could really happen to them, because I was thought to be a shoe-in.

Like said above, with these numbers, it isn't just the bottom of the barrel being left behind.

And, ditto, sign the petition!!!


I wonder if some students in preparing for this process go overboard or on paper they look as if they are the perfect student. I have worked in the mental health field many years and I have a number of friends who are licensed psychologist and work at Universities and at Internship sites. Some students who have a 4.0 GPA and a number of publications at the undergraduate and graduate level may not generalize to being the best match or fit with an internship site. If you use the normal bellshaped curve model my guess is those students at the lower and upper ends may have the most difficutly with finding a good match. I am not necessarily saying it is good or bad to be the top of your class but I've heard others on admissions committees indicate that there are both negative characteristics for the bottom and the top of the normal curve, especially when the applicant pool when looking at the larger population is already at the top of the general population normal curve.

I've heard clinicians comment that someone with a perfect GPA or top GRE may in some respects be overcompensating for weaknessess or problem areas that is not in their own personal awareness. I don't know if I would feel comfortable going to a therapist who advertises being in the top of their class or graduating with a 4.0 GPA. Especially in a field such as clinical psychology where diversity is valued, you don't want to look perfect on your CV or on your APPIC application as this may actually be deemed as a negative characteristic. If you have a 4.0 GPA over four years of doctoral study you most likely over worked yourself and could be a "HEAD CASE" and a difficult student to supervise in your internship experience.

Personality factors come into play and the social aspect of the interviewing process most likely seperates those students who are accepted and those students who are denied internships. The doctoral degree is a growth process and there is much more to being competent rather than making perfect grades. Many go through their own individual therapy process during doctoral studies and find that this may be the most beneficial aspect of their training experience. How many of us know very competent psychologist who have themselves suffered with mental illness including hospitalization and medication interventions. People who have struggled or had many challenges during their lives may become the best therapist or psychologists due to their life experiences and personal growth during their life.
 
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I wonder if some students in preparing for this process go overboard or on paper they look as if they are the perfect student. I have worked in the mental health field many years and I have a number of friends who are licensed psychologist and work at Universities and at Internship sites. Some students who have a 4.0 GPA and a number of publications at the undergraduate and graduate level may not generalize to being the best match or fit with an internship site. If you use the normal bellshaped curve model my guess is those students at the lower and upper ends may have the most difficutly with finding a good match. I am not necessarily saying it is good or bad to be the top of your class but I've heard others on admissions committees indicate that there are both negative characteristics for the bottom and the top of the normal curve, especially when the applicant pool when looking at the larger population is already at the top of the general population normal curve.

I've heard clinicians comment that someone with a perfect GPA or top GRE may in some respects be overcompensating for weaknessess or problem areas that is not in the own personal awareness. I don't know if I would feel comfortable going to a therapist who advertises being the top of their class or graduating with a 4.0 GPA. Especially in a field such as clinical psychology where diversity is valued, you don't want to look perfect on your CV or on your APPIC application as this may actually be deemed as a negative characteristic. If you have a 4.0 GPA over four years of doctoral study you most likely over worked yourself and could be a "HEAD CASE" and a difficult student to supervise in your internship experience.

Personality factors come into play and the social aspect of the interviewing process most likely seperates those students who are accepted and those students who are denied internships. The doctoral degree is a growth process and there is much more to being competent rather than making perfect grades. Many go through their own individual therapy process during doctoral studies and find that this may be the most beneficial aspect of their training experience. How many of us know very competent psychologist who have themselves suffered with mental illness including hospitalization and medication interventions. People who have struggled or had many challenges during their lives may become the best therapist or psychologists due to their life experiences and personal growth during their life.

...

OK, I can add:
-years of national advocacy work
-glowing letters of recommendation

It's tempting to find something "wrong" with me that caused me to not match. There isn't some personality flaw. I certainly don't have a mental illness. Implying such is pretty insulting, both to me and to the multitudes who don't match. I was a competitive applicant, but there are only spots for half the people in the match, in APA programs. It is inevitable that strong applicants will not match due to the imbalance.
 
I wonder if some students in preparing for this process go overboard or on paper they look as if they are the perfect student....

I think your post at best is a stretch and at worst is insulting to every student who didn't match by implying it was a personal (not professional) shortcoming. Being that many/most graduate programs require their students to attend APA acred. internships, that rules out over 40% of sites. Once you remove sites that require/strongly prefer prior experience in the setting (e.g. forensic, counseling, etc), now you have ruled out over 50% of sites. Many of those students cannibalize each other, and invariably some excellent candidates will get squeezed out.
 
...

OK, I can add:
-years of national advocacy work
-glowing letters of recommendation

It's tempting to find something "wrong" with me that caused me to not match. There isn't some personality flaw. I certainly don't have a mental illness. Implying such is pretty insulting, both to me and to the multitudes who don't match. I was a competitive applicant, but there are only spots for half the people in the match, in APA programs. It is inevitable that strong applicants will not match due to the imbalance.

I have just heard that the whole APPIC application process, interviews, and selection of candidates is not a precise system of evaluation of GRE, GPA, research, etc... as many or most all candidates have stellar qualities or they would never have reached this point in their training. Everyone has good to great recommendations so many site may not even use the recommendations in their formula or ranking system. I actually think some programs are so overwhelmed by the whole process that they choose the top 15 candidates and put their names in a hat and draw their names to determine how they are ranked to determine who gets into the two to eight slots at their site. Two of our students actually got selected by the Federal Prisons in Florida and Texas and they were in a non APA accredited program. Normally only APA accredited applicants are considered for these sites but they still had openings for the clearinghouse or phase II. I believe they were paid $50,000 for their internship year and now both are working in the Federal Correction system as licensed psychologist.

Hey....I was not talking about you personally but many students do go through a therapy process for growth enhancement or personal awareness and insight. I think I got as much or more out of knowledge of therapy from my own process. A number of the faculty members at my program have had struggles with mental illness during their childhood and adult years and they are very positive role models for students in our program related to efficacy of mental health treatment. A number of gifted individuals in the field of psychology have had their own life struggles that may have led them into this field. Hopefully, at this point in your training you do not have a negative stigma viewpoint of individuals with mental illness.

I applied to 26 sites and only had four interviews, so most likely I will not match in Phase I or II but will need to find my own local internship. I got an interview with the first site I applied to and when I got all of the rejections I went ahead and applied to sites with later deadlines. All of my sites are non APA accredited and only two of my interview sites are APPIC approved. The sites that I had interviews with all had current interns from APA accredited sites so a number of APA accredited programs allow students to complete a non APA accredited internship. I think there needs to be separate systems for APA or non APA accredited programs as it may increase the amount of students who match.
 
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I wonder if some students in preparing for this process go overboard or on paper they look as if they are the perfect student. I have worked in the mental health field many years and I have a number of friends who are licensed psychologist and work at Universities and at Internship sites. Some students who have a 4.0 GPA and a number of publications at the undergraduate and graduate level may not generalize to being the best match or fit with an internship site. If you use the normal bellshaped curve model my guess is those students at the lower and upper ends may have the most difficutly with finding a good match. I am not necessarily saying it is good or bad to be the top of your class but I've heard others on admissions committees indicate that there are both negative characteristics for the bottom and the top of the normal curve, especially when the applicant pool when looking at the larger population is already at the top of the general population normal curve.

I've heard clinicians comment that someone with a perfect GPA or top GRE may in some respects be overcompensating for weaknessess or problem areas that is not in their own personal awareness. I don't know if I would feel comfortable going to a therapist who advertises being in the top of their class or graduating with a 4.0 GPA. Especially in a field such as clinical psychology where diversity is valued, you don't want to look perfect on your CV or on your APPIC application as this may actually be deemed as a negative characteristic. If you have a 4.0 GPA over four years of doctoral study you most likely over worked yourself and could be a "HEAD CASE" and a difficult student to supervise in your internship experience.

Personality factors come into play and the social aspect of the interviewing process most likely seperates those students who are accepted and those students who are denied internships. The doctoral degree is a growth process and there is much more to being competent rather than making perfect grades. Many go through their own individual therapy process during doctoral studies and find that this may be the most beneficial aspect of their training experience. How many of us know very competent psychologist who have themselves suffered with mental illness including hospitalization and medication interventions. People who have struggled or had many challenges during their lives may become the best therapist or psychologists due to their life experiences and personal growth during their life.

This is exactly the type of things we're talking about, though. It seems that some many people cannot accept that good, well-balanced students are not getting matched, and need to find some personal flaw to justify it. Myself and several other posters on here tried to talk very honestly about how we are were considered good candidates but still didn't match- to simply emphasize the fact that the number game is so bad that it is not simply the bottom of the barrel remaining unmatched.

The point is, as MCParent says, that "It is inevitable that strong applicants will not match due to the imbalance."

And now it is implied that we must be wrong about us being good candidates-- that somehow working really damn hard to get a good GPA and to publish is compensating for something? That we are somehow perceived as flawed or unbalanced by virtue of this?

"Head cases" for having a 4.0? Funny, I needed that to get into a good grad school to become a clinical psychologist. Good to know I should have dropped my standards as soon as I got into the program.

I'm glad to know that mediocrity is a more reasonable solution than there being enough slots so that people can complete a degree they dedicated a tremendous amount of time and money to.

I'm sorry for the sarcasm, as I know you aren't trying to be personally derogating, but as someone who has been on the unmatched side of fence, I find these statements pretty insulting. I just wish that we could work together to tackle this crisis rather than continuing to justify seemingly legitimate reasons for it.
 
This is exactly the type of things we're talking about, though. It seems that some many people cannot accept that good, well-balanced students are not getting matched, and need to find some personal flaw to justify it. Myself and several other posters on here tried to talk very honestly about how we are were considered good candidates but still didn't match- to simply emphasize the fact that the number game is so bad that it is not simply the bottom of the barrel remaining unmatched.

The point is, as MCParent says, that "It is inevitable that strong applicants will not match due to the imbalance."

And now it is implied that we must be wrong about us being good candidates-- that somehow working really damn hard to get a good GPA and to publish is compensating for something? That we are somehow perceived as flawed or unbalanced by virtue of this?

"Head cases" for having a 4.0? Funny, I needed that to get into a good grad school to become a clinical psychologist. Good to know I should have dropped my standards as soon as I got into the program.

I'm glad to know that mediocrity is a more reasonable solution than there being enough slots so that people can complete a degree they dedicated a tremendous amount of time and money to.

I'm sorry for the sarcasm, as I know you aren't trying to be personally derogating, but as someone who has been on the unmatched side of fence, I find these statements pretty insulting. I just wish that we could work together to tackle this crisis rather than continuing to justify seemingly legitimate reasons for it.

4410 has been on here for a week and in that short time has managed to post poor information and patently wrong information about internships (VA in particular) and the internship process on several occasions, stick his foot in his mouth regarding training issues (on another thread), and insult other members with his weird take on some issues. He also is all over the map in some areas, apparently angry about the imbalance (as everyone should be) but now arguing that doing too good is somehow a redflag?! Ok...

I'm not sure what his focus on GPA is about either, cause as we all know, there is generally very little focus on grades in grad school or in this process. Further, GRE is nowhere in this equation at all. So again, I take this as misinformed ramblings, which does not appear uncommon for this poster.

I see no evidence either in conversation with my DOT, or in publication, that having a 4.0 or too many pubs in a high impact journal would make you come off as "flawed." Quite the opposite, obviously. What is readily apparent is that with the numbers as they are, the statistical likelihood that those with stellar qualifications can fall through the cracks has increased dramatically over the past several years. That's why everyone needs to unite and see the obvious here. Too many people pumped out for a market that doesn't want it...or at least wont fund it (even that tells you something).
 
Totally agree.



Well, then let me be the first. Not matching last year was terrible for me. I'm not going into all the details on this board, but it has been awful. My degree being up in the air until matching is a ridiculous circumstance. For some people, maybe not matching ended up being "better" but I suspect many choose to consider it as better because they desire a positive spin on something they couldn't control.

If someone participated in the match, it's because they WANTED to match. I haven't heard of anyone getting a bunch of interviews and deciding not to rank any sites because they wanted instead to "get licensed at the masters level, work on self improvement, get supported by their family, and put off starting their own family."

Why do you think their is so much outrage over the imbalance? If that year off and the uncertainty of matching was so great, people wouldn't be up in arms over the whole process. So let's be real, not matching is bad. Unfortunately, there is not a damned thing we can do about now, but try again. The world is not going to end, but I'm perfectly comfortable with saying not matching has been a horrible experience.


I know I'm late jumping in here, but I have to say that I concur. Sure, I've done some cool trainings this year, and I'm finishing my dissertation now, but not matching has been one of the worst and most financially draining experiences of my life. If I don't match again this year, I honestly don't know what I'll do. I can't afford to do this again. I should match based on stats (14 interviews), but I don't have a lot of faith in the system.

And just to address something else someone said about people having some personal flaw that kept them from matching, I won't claim that I'm perfect, at all! But I interviewed at 2 of the same sites this year as I interviewed at last year - both of the training directors told me they were SHOCKED to find out I didn't match and that they had both ranked me and thought I interviewed well. So I have personal feedback that I interview well, and like everyone else, my grades and CV are where they should be... So, it's the imbalance that is a problem, not necessarily the candidates.

And yes, the sleeplessness and ridiculous anxiety has set in for me, as well. Crossing my fingers for us all, particularly those who are going through this for the 2nd time! :xf:
 
4410 has been on here for a week and in that short time has managed to post poor information and patently wrong information about internships (VA in particular) and the internship process on several occasions, stick his foot in his mouth regarding training issues (on another thread), and insult other members with his weird take on some issues. He also is all over the map in some areas, apparently angry about the imbalance (as everyone should be) but now arguing that doing too good is somehow a redflag?! Ok...

I'm not sure what his focus on GPA is about either, cause as we all know, there is generally very little focus on grades in grad school or in this process. Further, GRE is nowhere in this equation at all. So again, I take this as misinformed ramblings, which does not appear uncommon for this poster.

I see no evidence either in conversation with my DOT, or in publication, that having a 4.0 or too many pubs in a high impact journal would make you come off as "flawed." Quite the opposite, obviously. What is readily apparent is that with the numbers as they are, the statistical likelihood that those with stellar qualifications can fall through the cracks has increased dramatically over the past several years. That's why everyone needs to unite and see the obvious here. Too many people pumped out for a market that doesn't want it...or at least wont fund it (even that tells you something).

Oh...I see...I'm one of those undertrained incompetent students from a PsyD professional school that is non APA accredited that has caused this mess!! It is obvious that I should not even be allowed to be in this forum!

Oh....I an not interested in research either and my GRE is below 1000. It is a wonder that I can even tie my own shoes much less pass a psychometric theory course. Being from a professional puppy mill, I was just passed on and my GPA is elevated so the professional school can keep making money to attract investors!

I guess it is just a self fulfilling prophecy and I must accept that I am merely only capable of BS level work. I have no chance or prayer of ever working as a psychologist and lordy lordy my debt limit is approaching $400,000 so I will die before I pay it off!! I most likely need to be banned from the internet! I am not worthy!!!
 
Oh...I see...I'm one of those undertrained incompetent students from a PsyD professional school that is non APA accredited that has caused this mess!! It is obvious that I should not even be allowed to be in this forum!

Oh....I an not interested in research either and my GRE is below 1000. It is a wonder that I can even tie my own shoes much less pass a psychometric theory course. Being from a professional puppy mill, I was just passed on and my GPA is elevated so the professional school can keep making money to attract investors!

I guess it is just a self fulfilling prophecy and I must accept that I am merely only capable of BS level work. I have no chance or prayer of ever working as a psychologist and lordy lordy my debt limit is approaching $400,000 so I will die before I pay it off!! I most likely need to be banned from the internet! I am not worthy!!!

I dont know if you are projecting or what, BUT...
Please note, for the record, that both in this post and the last one on the other thread, YOU have written the words "professional school" and "Psy.D." I have not. What does that mean to you?

I will tell what these things mean to me: I feel that 1.) I have to correct alot of the information you give out. 2.) that much of what you say is not well thought out or not very informed/accurate. 3. because of the previous two, you are rubbing people the wrong way on here.
 
In defense of the poster, not being a great tester can be a really difficult experience for someone interested in a field such as ours, so maybe that is why this poster keeps on focusing on GPA and GRE, and why they think it matters. At the same time, knowing that there are systems that re not totally fair (such as ones that screen student out with GRE, and there are great candidates who are lousy at the GRE), I am surprised you are more critical of the students than APPIC. if anything, my experience in graduate psych education has moved me a touch away form the "i can do it! I am control of my own destiny!" uber independent ethos to a belief that we are parts of multiple systems and that in order to have the most agency and power we need to have systems that allow for that, because many do not and people, despite real efforts and hard work, do not always get what they should.

But I will concur with Erg and with just a vast amount of info on this forum and my own experience as an advanced student that no one cares about your gre/gpa at this level. One of the best matched students i know, just a stellar match, top placement bundled with postdoc and great benefits in a very competitive major city, had a 3.6, which in grad school is not standout and i know entered our program with a meh gre (great interviewer, strong research record prior). once she got in, she was the same gal, not an amazing test taker, not great in drawing within the lines and acing exams, but a skilled clinician and researcher, a go getter, passionate and dynamic, and after not matching the 1st time around, matched the 2nd. Same crappy gre, same meh gpa, same great practica, 2 more pubs but they had a lot to begin with so it wasn't a major up in comparison--they were already advanced and awesome, they just didn't match the 1st time due to a flawed system and the die rolled a bit more in their favor the 2nd. like another poster, i am sure the 1st time around they were ranked heavily, but one again we have the story of canidate good enugh to get a ton of interviews not matching: gre gpa basically don't matter at this point, this is way beyond that. the system is seriously broken and there is only so much we can do, individually, in terms of our own approach to the internship crisis, to make us match. We can improve our chances but we cannot make it happen.i mean, we can do a lot, we can really up our chances and we should-- we can do our best and apply to best fit sites and apply broadly and try to maximize our match potential, but there will still be a real and sizeable X factor because this is a broken system which we need to try to address systematically and through advocacy because of our love of the profession and commitments a better mental health care system, on that values psychology, even if our efforts won't necessarily help us right now in our particular 2012 match.

Different people find different things comforting and helpful. i say this as someone who does not think that things happen for a reason, who does not actually think that tings will work out, and who finds, personally, just for me, those view points actually not comforting at all. i know others who do like to think that way and feel better. i am comforted by my own efforts to do the best i can by taking charge of my training and educating myself, and by taking part in advocacy, and by seeing students like mike who don't just sit there, they try to make a change.
 
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I dont know if you are projecting or what, BUT...
Please note, for the record, that both in this post and the last one on the other thread, YOU have written the words "professional school" and "Psy.D." I have not. What does that mean to you?

I will tell what these things mean to me: I feel that 1.) I have to correct alot of the information you give out. 2.) that much of what you say is not well thought out or not very informed/accurate. 3. because of the previous two, you are rubbing people the wrong way on here.

Good points. I think that the misinformation stands out to us (and is infuriating to me) and touches a nerve, because the topic is so very personal.

Maintaining dialogue is important, and I like that 4410's comments (as mad as they made some) sparked a dialogue about what it means to not match. Hearing about really competitive applicants' experiences with the flawed process is helpful for me and might be validating for others. I hadn't realized how much I needed to hear more about it.
 
I dont know if you are projecting or what, BUT...
Please note, for the record, that both in this post and the last one on the other thread, YOU have written the words "professional school" and "Psy.D." I have not. What does that mean to you?

I will tell what these things mean to me: I feel that 1.) I have to correct alot of the information you give out. 2.) that much of what you say is not well thought out or not very informed/accurate. 3. because of the previous two, you are rubbing people the wrong way on here.

Please keep working in the VA so you won't harm people in the public independent sector of society. Your comments about my comments are mostly unfounded....I get the message so I will no longer post on this website. See Ya!

I wish everyone well in the Match next Friday. Maybe I will follow up at a later time on this forum, but for now I have better things to focus on and I need to stop wasting so much time. I need to finish up my dissertation or CRP in PsyD terms so I may focus and dedicate my time to finish up this degree and moving on towards licensure.

Bye!
 
Good points. I think that the misinformation stands out to us (and is infuriating to me) and touches a nerve, because the topic is so very personal.

Maintaining dialogue is important, and I like that 4410's comments (as mad as they made some) sparked a dialogue about what it means to not match. Hearing about really competitive applicants' experiences with the flawed process is helpful for me and might be validating for others. I hadn't realized how much I needed to hear more about it.

I, too, find these stories about real-life folks who did not match to be informative and validating. I appreciate the fact that people in my life are showing me support by telling me not to worry, that of course I will match, look at the stats, etc. I really do appreciate where their words are coming from and welcome the votes of confidence. On another level, though, it is invalidating to have people basically telling me that it is not rational to worry, when I know that there absolutely is a chance I won't match, despite everything I put into my graduate career and this process and my qualifications.

I also think that we all have a right to express ourselves on here, but I did find the comments about people with high GPAs and high GREs likely having serious deficits in other areas to be incredibly insulting (and, as was pointed out by others, completely irrelevant to how interns are selected). It just sounded to me like someone who has tried to reframe some personal disappointments by projecting faults onto others. I certainly don't consider myself perfect, but I am intelligent, reasonably socially skilled, well-liked, and an empathetic and skilled clinician who also happens to do well on tests and in coursework. I have no interest in engaging in a back-and-forth on this issue, but think it is important that people think about the implications and effects of their free speech on this forum.
 
Please keep working in the VA so you won't harm people in the public independent sector of society. Your comments about my comments are mostly unfounded....I get the message so I will no longer post on this website. See Ya!

I wish everyone well in the Match next Friday. Maybe I will follow up at a later time on this forum, but for now I have better things to focus on and I need to stop wasting so much time. I need to finish up my dissertation or CRP in PsyD terms so I may focus and dedicate my time to finish up this degree and moving on towards licensure.

Bye!

Geez, what a freakin drama queen...and, apparently, its ok to harm veterans?! Interesting perspective.

Anyway, the only kernel of truth in all that I think speaks to the variety of sites in the match, and what the value and look for in applicants. No doubt some would prefer you have 1500 hours and no pubs rather than 800 hours and 3 pubs. But, obviously, no one is even looking at GPA and there is no empirical evidence that those with 4.0 are lacking in other areas.
 
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If one more family member or friend says "Don't worry, you'll match" I'm gonna puke. How do they know? They don't. I know they're trying to comfort me, but it doesn't help. It just makes it worse I swear.:scared:
 
If one more family member or friend says "Don't worry, you'll match" I'm gonna puke. How do they know? They don't. I know they're trying to comfort me, but it doesn't help. It just makes it worse I swear.:scared:

I know, I mean I don't expect them to say, "oh my god you should be freaking out!" But at least don't act as if there's no reason to think twice about it. Of course, some of the posters on this forum are the type you describe!
 
If one more family member or friend says "Don't worry, you'll match" I'm gonna puke. How do they know? They don't. I know they're trying to comfort me, but it doesn't help. It just makes it worse I swear.:scared:

I totally agree. They seem to be more certain than we are. They don't know how stressful this is for us. Their comments are not helping at all. I am having pimples on my face and nothing I do is helping.

Th only thing that comforts me is reading this forum because I know that everyone here knows exactly how I feel.

Ps I have been reading this forum for a long time. I don't post as much as I should, but I really appreciate everyone's comments and their insights.

I wish everyone the best of luck on Friday.
 
If one more family member or friend says "Don't worry, you'll match" I'm gonna puke. How do they know? They don't. I know they're trying to comfort me, but it doesn't help. It just makes it worse I swear.:scared:

I think at this point nothing anyone says could make me feel better. The only thing that would is when I see on Friday: congratulations you matched! Or something to that effect...

I kinda feel for the people around us though. I remember when my bf last year was going through this process and anything I say hits a nerve. Now I'm on the same boat lol 🙄
 
Yes I agree. There isn't anything I can think of that will make me feel less stressed at this point. Five more days. Yikes
 
If one more family member or friend says "Don't worry, you'll match" I'm gonna puke. How do they know? They don't. I know they're trying to comfort me, but it doesn't help. It just makes it worse I swear.:scared:

The thing is, they have watched us succeed time after time, even though we expressed anxiety about not getting into grad school, not passing our comps, not passing our defense, etc. Until last year when I didn't match, my family would roll their eyes when I expressed worry and say "knock it off, of course you will (fill in the blank)!" They aren't saying that this year.

Only 5 days to go! Outwardly I feel reasonably calm, but my dreams are quite another story. I'll be glad to have the ambiguity of Phase I behind me, and I'm hoping not to have to go through it again during Phase II. Based on my experience last year, it was like Phase I on steriods! 🙁
 
Oh the dreams! More like nightmares. Last night I had a dream that I wanted to have a baby, but my husband said "What you need is a JOB".
 
In terms or my life outside of work, I would rather not match than get anything but my 1st choice. But I didn't have the luxury of not ranking certain programs based on my personal life. So when Friday rolls around, I'll continue to be more preoccupied with where I match if I match, not whether I match at all. Yuck.
 
Please keep working in the VA so you won't harm people in the public independent sector of society.

😱 Seriously? That is just so appalling and so uncalled for.

I know the stress of this process can bring out the worst in us, and, it's never OK to take that stress out on other people.

I'm hoping everyone is finding a way to relax this weekend (in a healthy, non-addictive way 😉) ...For me, I've been trying to stay active by seeing friends and getting out of my apartment, 'cause staying in my apartment = getting sucked in by the internet.

It IS hard when friends/family say invalidating statements like "don't worry, I'm sure you'll get an internship." It was hard when I didn't match last year because my outside-school friends were happy I didn't match 'cause they got me here for another year :laugh: Now they are saying things like, "We hope you get an internship here for selfish reasons!" And I'm like, "Ummm...thanks??"
 
Because the system is so bad that I need to keep all options open just to get through it.

I agree. I guess I'd rather go anywhere for a year than go through this again. This has been so so awfully stressful.😡
 
Only 5 days to go! Outwardly I feel reasonably calm, but my dreams are quite another story. I'll be glad to have the ambiguity of Phase I behind me, and I'm hoping not to have to go through it again during Phase II. Based on my experience last year, it was like Phase I on steriods! 🙁

Sadly, that is still a vast improvement over the "Clearing House". It was literally a race because most APA sites would stop accepting applicants only hours after their spot was posted. No one should have to go through that kind of stress this far into their training.
 
Sadly, that is still a vast improvement over the "Clearing House". It was literally a race because most APA sites would stop accepting applicants only hours after their spot was posted. No one should have to go through that kind of stress this far into their training.

Yes, Clearinghouse just sounds like such a crazy way to approach this process, though I suppose the good part was that it was relatively short. A month to do Phase II seems really long. I also have to admit to not feeling much optimism for Phase II as a viable second matching opportunity, given how few APA spots there tend to be (required for my program), I think last year it was something like 72 spots. But some possibilities would be better than no possibility, of course, and I know it does work out for some people.
 
Sadly, that is still a vast improvement over the "Clearing House". It was literally a race because most APA sites would stop accepting applicants only hours after their spot was posted. No one should have to go through that kind of stress this far into their training.

I completely agree and would not want to go back to the old way of doing things. However, an additional month of waiting last year was quite torturous. I've been waiting to start my real life for 9 years. I really need to know what's next for sure. :xf: for next Friday that all will become clear!
 
5 days left ladies and gentlemen. It's so funny/strange how my thoughts and emotions related to the results have been like a violent roller coaster. I've spent the last week feeling certain I am not going to match, and for some reason today I am oddly certain that I will. Not sure at all where this false sense of security is coming from, but I hope it lasts and the sense of utter doom doesn't come back.

I have been so useless during this waiting period... during the whole application/interview/waiting process really. Ready to be put out of my misery. 😛
 
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5 days left ladies and gentlemen. It's so funny/strange how my thoughts and emotions related to the results have been like a violent roller coaster. I've spent the last week feeling certain I am not going to match, and for some reason to day I am oddly certain that I will. Not sure at all where this false sense of security is coming for, but I hope it lasts and the sense of utter doom doesn't come back.

I have been so useless during this waiting period... during the whole application/interview/waiting process really. Ready to be put out of my misery. 😛

Same! I go through days of being certain I will not match and then days thinking that someone has to match so why not me? I must say as Friday approaches I have been cycling more rapidly 🙂... At this point I guess we have to hope for the best and prepare for the worst, right? I just want to know- so over waiting!
 
Same! I go through days of being certain I will not match and then days thinking that someone has to match so why not me? I must say as Friday approaches I have been cycling more rapidly 🙂... At this point I guess we have to hope for the best and prepare for the worst, right? I just want to know- so over waiting!

Heh! I wonder if we can submit this for dsm -v as part of the anxiety disorders. I sure have it!
 
What makes this worse for me is that someone (many people?), somewhere in a cube at APPIC HQ knows whether I matched and if so, where. It's out there, I just can't get to it. That makes me CRAZY! :scared:
 
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