2015-2016 Current Events in Veterinary Medicine

Started by rockatiel
Veterinary Science Graduate Programs from U. of I.
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battie said:
I agree. The problem is that the main groups pushing for guardianship (PETA as the prime example), would not allow for a difference in treatment between pets and food animals.
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I just looked over the AVMA's position on guardianship; I didn't realize that they had issued one. It seems like guardian is probably not the appropriate legal term for an owner, nor ward for the pet.
Yet, I don't agree that owner and property is the ideal term for defining the pet's best interest in society.
 
yugen said:
I just looked over the AVMA's position on guardianship; I didn't realize that they had issued one. It seems like guardian is probably not the appropriate legal term for an owner, nor ward for the pet.
Yet, I don't agree that owner and property is the ideal term for defining the pet's best interest in society.
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That probably depends on the individual at that point. Some people treat their property well because they understand it's theirs and that it lasts longer/has a lower rate of depreciation/etc. if they treat it well. Others don't care about their property because it's easily replaceable/low value/etc. At that point, it doesn't matter what you classify the relationship as from a legal standpoint. We'll always have the people that won't consider animals as high value for one reason or another. I get what you're saying as far as changing the perception over time. But I feel there's a difference in how the vast majority of people view animal issues versus human rights issues and that the change will be even more slow going than our current issues. We still have segregated proms in the South and women are paid less than men as a whole.
 
I log client behavior or communications frequently. We even have a specific 'sensitive communication' category in our computer system for logging things like that.

How clients behave has some impact on how you interact with them. It <does> matter. I don't make any diagnosis, but as a human being I am qualified to make observations along the line of "client swore and screamed at customer service rep and threatened to return and shut us down". That's a legitimate observation and an important thing to have recorded so that later, when you're asked to explain why you locked the clinic doors, you have a record that people would generally find as an acceptable reason to have taken action.

It's unreasonable to say you shouldn't record such things because it is "diagnosing" the client. That's absurd. Nowhere in my records does it ever say something like "client is suffering from <insert diagnosis>". It will just say how the client acted and what they said. You don't need to be an MD to do that.
 
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pp9 said:
Why would that be in a medical record?
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The dog was being treated for suspected toxicity, so IMO it's definitely relevant that the owner was acting like he was on drugs. Sorry, I could have clarified that.

ETA:
pp9 said:
Based off of Lyra's post, either the clinic didn't give her much detail, or he didn't do anything further than saying he felt watched by ISIS/whatever other behaviors he exhibited.
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To further clarify, the bit I mentioned was just a small part of the full SOAP. I actually didn't get to read the entire thing because one of the morning receptionists accidentally threw away the second page. (We'd never seen this client or his dog, so I have no idea why the emergency clinic faxed this to us, and we had no reason to keep it.)
 
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LyraGardenia said:
The dog was being treated for suspected toxicity, so IMO it's definitely relevant that the owner was acting like he was on drugs. Sorry, I could have clarified that.

ETA:

To further clarify, the bit I mentioned was just a small part of the full SOAP. I actually didn't get to read the entire thing because one of the morning receptionists accidentally threw away the second page. (We'd never seen this client or his dog, so I have no idea why the emergency clinic faxed this to us, and we had no reason to keep it.)
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Tangent, but there are two reasons primarily that ERs send you records for not-your-client:

1. The client writes your clinic on the admit form as their regular dvm. Not our fault.

2. We click on the wrong clinic from the mile long list of local clinics and send it to, for instance "All Creatures Vet Hospital" instead of "All Creatures Veterinary Clinic". Totally our fault.

Both happen. Sorry! 🙂
 
LetItSnow said:
Tangent, but there are two reasons primarily that ERs send you records for not-your-client:

1. The client writes your clinic on the admit form as their regular dvm. Not our fault.

2. We click on the wrong clinic from the mile long list of local clinics and send it to, for instance "All Creatures Vet Hospital" instead of "All Creatures Veterinary Clinic". Totally our fault.

Both happen. Sorry! 🙂
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That makes sense. 🙂 We do often get confused with a couple other clinics, not because of similar names, but we're called [Street Name] Animal Hospital and there are two other clinics on the same street a couple miles down. :smack:
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Not sure if this was posted yet, but a nice "One Health" related article.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/12/obesity-antibiotics-microbiome/421344/
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Wondering what some SDN people think of this article and how it relates to organic meat which we were discussing on another thread. Because this article does seem to state that antibiotics used in the meat industry is contributing to these issues both in terms of the possibility of ingesting the antibiotics from the animals (even though some of us had discussed withdrawal period and it being cleared form the animals system) and also that it is excreted by the animal and then seeps into the soil and is having negative effects that way. Do organic meat efforts not help address these issues at all?
 
Lupin21 said:
Notes are just that. Notes. It comes to no harm if the client is eccentric and everyone is fine, but what about when it comes down to something happens and that medical record is valuable evidence? Writing everything down is fine in my mind, because it is useful in one way or another to the people who read it. Does it mean that the next vet who reads your observations may be biased, yes. But that is where being a supposedly intelligent person having made it through medical training should come into play and said person acts accordingly and then makes up their own mind.
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Minnerbelle said:
I would never write "client delusional, or mental stability of client questionable" or anything of that nature as I'm not qualified to assess such things. Those are interpretations.

But I log client communications objectively in the medical record. These things matter if things go south.
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Sorry, I know I'm going back a little, my phone went crazy yesterday and decided to divorce the charger and never speak to it again... but that's another story.

Client behavior does matter to patient care and client interactions but one clinic I worked at didn't want to put anything in the record unless it directly impacted the pet's care or the clinics ability to interact with them so we used a highlighter alert system, just a stripe down the middle of the page. It only worked for general demenor or something the doc or tech ought to know before entering the room, but probably wouldn't matter to another clinic.

For example:
-a blue stripe indicated sad. Often these had a room number on them and represented: "This owner had their last dog PTS in room 2 and has asked not to be put there anymore."
-yellow: careful, there may be touchy subjects or something else that this client is very particular about, go ask
-red: angry, explosive clients/or occasionally angry animal that the owner refuses to acknowledge as such

Then one day I saw pink. I assumed it was supposed to be red. Client's name was Candy. I thought "Great, sassy old lady to start my day..." I met the nicest, best personality and gorgeously primped transvestite/transsexual (sorry didn't get more details at that point but eventually the latter) woman ever! She had the most spunk and pride in herself and I loved her! Still wish I could have taken back that first step into the room because I did a double take. But I learned what pink meant. (Still one of my favorite clients after 9 years😍)
 
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Minnerbelle said:
The WHO wanting to ban ketamine 🙁
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Currently reading more about this - does anyone know/can point me toward a source about what the verdict on ketamine was after the WHO convention in November? The most recent articles I am finding right now date back to the end of October.
 
hazelmoo said:
If any current events question came up in my interview, I was going to talk about the Ebola "outbreak" that happened somewhat recently in the US, and the potential link between people's pet dogs.
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Are you saying that people are trying to link the "outbreak" to their pets? I looked it up and just saw mention of some exotic pets like pigs and monkeys that are able to act as carriers. I'm just kinda confused by what you're saying, but I think it's interesting & would like to talk about it, so wanted to see if you had a link/could explain it more. 🙂
 
AniSci said:
Are you saying that people are trying to link the "outbreak" to their pets? I looked it up and just saw mention of some exotic pets like pigs and monkeys that are able to act as carriers. I'm just kinda confused by what you're saying, but I think it's interesting & would like to talk about it, so wanted to see if you had a link/could explain it more. 🙂
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I believe she may be referring to the cases in the 2014 outbreak where a person was found to be infected with Ebola, and they had pets. There was a case in Texas and another in Spain. In Spain the dog was euthanized, and in Texas the dog was quarantined and eventually reunited with the owner once the owner had recovered. Officials weren't sure if it was possible for dogs to be carriers and/or infect humans with Ebola. I believe the general consensus now is that dogs and cats cannot transmit Ebola.

Here's the CDC info on it if you're interested:
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/qas-pets.html
 
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Caiter92 said:
I believe she may be referring to the cases in the 2014 outbreak where a person was found to be infected with Ebola, and they had pets. There was a case in Texas and another in Spain. In Spain the dog was euthanized, and in Texas the dog was quarantined and eventually reunited with the owner once the owner had recovered. Officials weren't sure if it was possible for dogs to be carriers and/or infect humans with Ebola. I believe the general consensus now is that dogs and cats cannot transmit Ebola.
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Oh okay! That's what I read, too (Here: http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/transmission/qas-pets.html). Thank you! 🙂
 
AniSci said:
Are you saying that people are trying to link the "outbreak" to their pets? I looked it up and just saw mention of some exotic pets like pigs and monkeys that are able to act as carriers. I'm just kinda confused by what you're saying, but I think it's interesting & would like to talk about it, so wanted to see if you had a link/could explain it more. 🙂
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What @Caiter92 said 🙂 ❤️
 
What's even more upsetting is all the people defending him, talking about how he's saved so many lives and blahblahblah and "he knows more than the so called experts!!!11111". Ugh. Starting to think that nothing he does will ever cause him to lose credibility, short of decapitating a puppy on live TV.
 
I definitely agree with what the article says about his lack of positive reinforcement. Reassuring a potentially fearful dog is so important. Rewarding them is so important. My dog has a ton of behavioral issues and I would never train him like Cesar would.
 
dyachei said:
can't say this upsets me: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nvestigated-for-animal-cruelty-against-a-pig/

cesar millan is being investigated for animal cruelty.
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We discussed him briefly in our behavior classes. I don't see how anyone can find 'flooding' a dog with their stressor to be such a good thing. You wouldn't force your kid to walk through a haunted house if they were terrified (well, most wouldn't), why force your dog to take a huge leap into a fearful situation? I just don't think most people realize what he is doing and what can become of the situation. If that were a bigger dog, I don't think he would have been able to pull it off the pig so easily.
 
pp9 said:
I don't see how anyone can find 'flooding' a dog with their stressor to be such a good thing. You wouldn't force your kid to walk through a haunted house if they were terrified (well, most wouldn't), why force your dog to take a huge leap into a fearful situation?
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I think you might be disappointed by people, then. Many people believe that you should force children or other family members to "face their fears"
 
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dyachei said:
can't say this upsets me: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nvestigated-for-animal-cruelty-against-a-pig/

cesar millan is being investigated for animal cruelty.
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I saw Millan at the recent veterinary conference in Las Vegas, on the trade show floor. He's been "partnered" with Vetericyn for over 5 years.......Vetericyn makes a line of animal wound care products. Kind of ironic, I think.

I just saw him in passing - I don't know exactly what he was doing for them there.
 
CalliopeDVM said:
I saw Millan at the recent veterinary conference in Las Vegas, on the trade show floor. He's been "partnered" with Vetericyn for over 5 years.......Vetericyn makes a line of animal wound care products. Kind of ironic, I think.

I just saw him in passing - I don't know exactly what he was doing for them there.
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I believe that they didn't understand the controversy because one of the vendors he partnered with found out and will not be renewing his contract
 
KCgophervet said:
I don't think they should be. It sounds like the AVMA pushing off the responsibility for dealing with the very real issues of student debt and the debt:income ratio off on private practitioners.
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That's exactly what it is. Therefore, many private practitioners are unhappy with both the AVMA and the article.
 
Wow, does that suck........we can decrease new graduates' debt-to-income ratio if vet clinics pay new grads more money. Or if every clinic just paid some into the pot to decrease student debt. Sure. Easy peasy. Why didn't anyone think of that before? LOL. I notice it doesn't suggest schools simply charge them less or subsidize their tuition.
 
WildZoo said:
Technicians pushing for new name: veterinary nurse
NAVTA also wants a national standard for credentialing

Not sure how to feel about this, unless they still plan to allow for an assistant type position. But I'm biased I guess because I'm one of those "off the street" people.
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There was a huge argument on my Facebook not to long ago between two students in the VTEC program at my school where one shared a post about how an unlicensed tech almost killed a dog, all techs should have to go through school, you get the message. Another student blew up on her and told her that some unlicensed technicians were better than some RVTs she knew, blah blah blah, anecdote after anecdote trying to prove one is better than the other. In the VTEC program they actually encourage all students to work in clinics unlicensed and get trained on the job even though you get hands-on experience from the get go.

An "off the street" tech that I worked with was very intelligent, amazing with animals, and super hard working, but had a family and couldn't go back to school. Does that mean she still shouldn't tech? I just don't think so. So if they're really going to do this I do hope the allow assistants. This will hurt pre vets too. It's already getting harder to get hands-on vet experience as is.
 
WildZoo said:
Not sure how to feel about this, unless they still plan to allow for an assistant type position. But I'm biased I guess because I'm one of those "off the street" people.
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I don't see anything in there about not allowing assistant positions. Honestly, the huge differences between states in how they handle veterinary work is very confusing, and I don't think there's really any good reason to keep things so different and state-dependent. In NY, I wasn't even allowed to refer to myself as a technician, but here, the terms assistant and tech are used interchangeably. And it's just as confusing to clients at times. I had a client say to me today, "So as a tech, you can do everything the doctor can do except write prescriptions, right?" Yeah, no. I've also overheard clients being rude to LVTs because they think tech means assistant. So I really think the profession could benefit from a little more consistency and clarity in what these titles really mean. You have to admit it's a little weird that in one state, you have to go through a program and pass a licensing exam to draw blood or give an injection SQ but in another, someone who's learned on the job can place an IV catheter since there's no regulation requiring a license for those kinds of tasks.
 
missdarjeeling said:
I don't see anything in there about not allowing assistant positions. Honestly, the huge differences between states in how they handle veterinary work is very confusing, and I don't think there's really any good reason to keep things so different and state-dependent. In NY, I wasn't even allowed to refer to myself as a technician, but here, the terms assistant and tech are used interchangeably. And it's just as confusing to clients at times. I had a client say to me today, "So as a tech, you can do everything the doctor can do except write prescriptions, right?" Yeah, no. I've also overheard clients being rude to LVTs because they think tech means assistant. So I really think the profession could benefit from a little more consistency and clarity in what these titles really mean. You have to admit it's a little weird that in one state, you have to go through a program and pass a licensing exam to draw blood or give an injection SQ but in another, someone who's learned on the job can place an IV catheter since there's no regulation requiring a license for those kinds of tasks.
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I guess what I mean is that it would suck for people trying to get hands on experience if nationwide you had to go through school to draw blood and such.
 
rockatiel said:
There was a huge argument on my Facebook not to long ago between two students in the VTEC program at my school where one shared a post about how an unlicensed tech almost killed a dog, all techs should have to go through school, you get the message. Another student blew up on her and told her that some unlicensed technicians were better than some RVTs she knew, blah blah blah, anecdote after anecdote trying to prove one is better than the other. In the VTEC program they actually encourage all students to work in clinics unlicensed and get trained on the job even though you get hands-on experience from the get go.

An "off the street" tech that I worked with was very intelligent, amazing with animals, and super hard working, but had a family and couldn't go back to school. Does that mean she still shouldn't tech? I just don't think so. So if they're really going to do this I do hope the allow assistants. This will hurt pre vets too. It's already getting harder to get hands-on vet experience as is.
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Lol I met two licensed techs who directly lead to the deaths of 3 patients combined. All within like 6 months. So that argument will never hold any weight in my eyes. Frankly, I think my boss should have reported them each time, but what do I know?

I see both sides of the argument, really. You can definitely learn techy things without a license and be darn good at all of it. Requiring school/licensing adds to the 'prestige' of the job. I just don't think every area of the country could pay high enough to make a degree financially feasible or even worth it. There are areas where licensed techs make $10 or so an hour.
 
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pp9 said:
I see both sides of the argument, really. You can definitely learn techy things without a license and be darn good at all of it. Requiring school/licensing adds to the 'prestige' of the job. I just don't think every area of the country could pay high enough to make a degree financially feasible or even worth it. There are areas where licensed techs make $10 or so an hour.
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I agree. The economics are going to be a problem if states which historically have not required licensing suddenly require it. Where I live, licensed RVTs and CVAs are typically paid a higher hourly wage than those of us hired off the street. So, if clinics are required to only allow licensed staff to perform certain duties, the average hourly wage goes up, which eats into profitability of the overall clinic.
If you're the practice owner, do you take the hit in lost profits, raise prices for your services, or something else? If you raise prices, do you lose business?
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
rockatiel said:
Rather than sad, this makes me angry. People need to educate themselves. Vets are already burnt out on stuff like this as is without having to receive backlash over doing their job of controlling the population.
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I just think it's incredibly sad that she felt so guilty, that she chose to euthanize herself as almost an "I deserve this" kind of action. She talked about how guilty she felt even before the internet bullies came into play...why bother making her feel worse? Part of her interview discussed how much she hated what she had to do! Ugh. I'm not sure how veterinarians are viewed over there in general, but this is insane.
 
pp9 said:
I just think it's incredibly sad that she felt so guilty, that she chose to euthanize herself as almost an "I deserve this" kind of action. She talked about how guilty she felt even before the internet bullies came into play...why bother making her feel worse? Part of her interview discussed how much she hated what she had to do! Ugh. I'm not sure how veterinarians are viewed over there in general, but this is insane.
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Oh no, I'm not saying don't feel sad about it. It's definitely a tragedy. The fact that she euthanized herself is very painful to read. It just lights a fire under me. I dunno if being in another country would make things too different, though. In my experience, I've had people walk into the exam room that wasn't theirs and tell our vet to "stop killing those babies!" When we were just giving the kittens dewormer and they were fussing loudly about it. I just wish the people who were so passionate about no killing could bridge the fact that in order for a world to be no kill, the population needs extreme management.
 
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