2018 Low GPA/High MCAT Thread

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Overthink

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Going into the new application cycle I want to start a thread for similar stat applicants. There seems to be a version of this every year. At the least it'll be a support group for this unpredictable stat combo.

How are people choosing schools?

(I'm defining low GPA as <3.5 and high MCAT as >515/34)
 
efle said:
Use the good ol' LizzyM score system

So a 3.4/34 should apply places with an average of ~68, so like a school with medians 3.7/31 would be good
Click to expand...
Doesnt that inflate the competitiveness the more the MCAT contributes? I am not sure how competitive a 3.3/41 would be at all the schools with roughly 3.8/36 medians.
 
efle said:
Use the good ol' LizzyM score system

So a 3.4/34 should apply places with an average of ~68, so like a school with medians 3.7/31 would be good
Click to expand...
Do you find there is a difference between the direction of the scew? Should a 4.0/28 really be making a list like a 3.5/33?
 
SuaveCardigans said:
Doesnt that inflate the competitiveness the more the MCAT contributes? I am not sure how competitive a 3.3/41 would be at all the schools with roughly 3.8/36 medians.
Click to expand...
EODguy said:
Do you find there is a difference between the direction of the scew? Should a 4.0/28 really be making a list like a 3.5/33?
Click to expand...
WedgeDawg's Applicant Rating system (which people should look at anyway) includes a table which breaks GPA/MCAT combinations into 10 different categories. It's very close to LizzyM but differs a bit for people with a low GPA/high MCAT combo or the reverse.
 
EODguy said:
Do you find there is a difference between the direction of the scew? Should a 4.0/28 really be making a list like a 3.5/33?
Click to expand...

I think in terms of low GPA high MCAT, an upward trend should be taken into account. So if a solid 3.3 (consistent 3.3 over 4 years) with 515 should apply to maybe different places than a 3.3 with a (3.o first 2 year 3.7+ final two years) with 515?
 
I'm willing to bet low GPA/high MCAT folks will have significantly greater success in their application cycles than what SDN predicts. I think MCAT is the key determinant of what schools to apply to since it's a standardized exam with predictive value on board performance. So their application cycle will not be that unpredictable, and they can probably get some interviews from top tiers with high MCAT medians.
 
Lawper said:
I'm willing to bet low GPA/high MCAT folks will have significantly greater success in their application cycles than what SDN predicts. I think MCAT is the key determinant of what schools to apply to since it's a standardized exam with predictive value on board performance. So their application cycle will not be that unpredictable, and they can probably get some interviews from top tiers with high MCAT medians.
Click to expand...

Lawper, you really know how to make a man feel good.
 
Lawper said:
I'm willing to bet low GPA/high MCAT folks will have significantly greater success in their application cycles than what SDN predicts. I think MCAT is the key determinant of what schools to apply to since it's a standardized exam with predictive value on board performance. So their application cycle will not be that unpredictable, and they can probably get some interviews from top tiers with high MCAT medians.
Click to expand...
I'd be less certain of that. According to AAMC Table A-23, 47.4% of applicants with 3.2-3.39 and 518+ were accepted, compared to 52.6% for those in the same GPA range but 514-517. It's pretty much flipped for 3.0-3.19, but that's a really small sample.
You might be right that these lopsided students get into higher ranked schools than the SDN hive mind would predict.
 
DoctorCakes said:
Lawper, you really know how to make a man feel good.
Click to expand...

I try 😉

Although it's probably anecdotal because I have friends with very low (close to 3.0 GPA) and high MCAT (>38). Despite a few years of near-4.0 GPA trend, they were advised by SDN their GPA makes them not competitive for MD and barely competitive for DO. They were strongly urged to apply for SMP and do more grade repair. Not surprisingly, they weren't pleased and decided to apply anyways to a wide range of schools while sending schools grade updates.

Results? They got rejected from most low tiers because their MCAT scores were too high and got lots of interviews from top tiers. All of them are currently medical students at various research powerhouses. This made me believe the MCAT is the key stratifying metric and essential to plan what schools to apply. And school lists should be made with respect to accepted MCAT medians and ranges.

Upward trends are a lot more important than overall GPA since schools care about long term academic performance and people often have a poor start for various reasons. But I believe doing well on the MCAT erases a lot of doubt on academic ability and should be used to its advantage.

Finally, it's important to take SDN advice with a grain of salt. SDN predictions are very conservative and regularly underpredicts actual cycle success. Use SDN forecast as the worst case scenario and do what you can to craft the most compelling application possible for optimal success.
 
cactusman said:
I'd be less certain of that. According to AAMC Table A-23, 47.4% of applicants with 3.2-3.39 and 518+ were accepted, compared to 52.6% for those in the same GPA range but 514-517. It's pretty much flipped for 3.0-3.19, but that's a really small sample.
You might be right that these lopsided students get into higher ranked schools than the SDN hive mind would predict.
Click to expand...

It's significantly rarer to have low GPA/high MCAT than high GPA/low MCAT. So the sample size of the former is a lot smaller, which means we can't rely only on what the data report. The fact that it's harder to score in top few percentile on MCAT than getting 4.0 GPA coupled with the fact the mathematics makes it harder to recover from low GPA clearly illustrate the importance of the MCAT and its role in crafting school lists and predicting success.
 
Lawper said:
It's significantly rarer to have low GPA/high MCAT than high GPA/low MCAT. So the sample size of the former is a lot smaller, which means we can't rely only on what the data report. The fact that it's harder to score in top few percentile on MCAT than getting 4.0 GPA coupled with the fact the mathematics makes it harder to recover from low GPA clearly illustrate the importance of the MCAT and its role in crafting school lists and predicting success.
Click to expand...

Based on the AAMC table, the 3.2-3.39 and 514-517 only has like 115 applicants I remember correctly...that's very little compared to the overall pool, isn't it around 30,000?
 
I'm a 3.4 (both c/s GPA) with a 522 (I think LizzyM is 73). I'm having a terribly difficult time narrowing down my school list because everyone says "apply broadly" then they also say you should only need 15 well-considered schools, but then there's the comment, "unless you have a low GPA, high MCAT"... SO ... what is broadly in this context? I found something like only 3 schools where I'm within the 10th-90th percentile for both MCAT and GPA. I'm still making my list, but so far I have something like 26 to 30 schools I'm interested in (after removing any we can't move to based on location). I'll post if I get secondaries (which I'm guaranteed NOT to get until I actually add schools to my application. It was approved last week while I was on a road trip, which was a bit of a surprise).

I can't imagine I'll get interviews at my state school that has a 505 median MCAT with a GPA median closer to mine. On the other hand, Johns Hopkins has a 10th-90th GPA from something like 3.8 to 4.0, so an application there is pretty much a donation. I may go with the idea that I should try to find schools where my MCAT is a better match, and then see if there is any hope that they offered just ONE person with a 3.4 a spot (10th percentile in the 3.5 to 3.6 range gives me a very small amount of hope). My freshman year was 2.2 GPA and every year after that was >3.5, so my GPA is low due to an awful freshman year, and I have a solid upward trend. I'm hoping this will give me a little boost.

@Lawper - Do you know the schools where your friends had the most success?
 
EODguy said:
Do you find there is a difference between the direction of the scew? Should a 4.0/28 really be making a list like a 3.5/33?
Click to expand...
I think the MCAT probably carries a little more of the weight than the GPA, because 3.8+ GPAs are far more common than top 10% MCATs are. You have to get pretty extreme for the heuristic to stop working though, like a perfect GPA with a MCAT in the 20s, I'd say apply more cautiously than a 3.7/31 needs to.
 
DBC03 said:
I'm a 3.4 (both c/s GPA) with a 522 (I think LizzyM is 73). I'm having a terribly difficult time narrowing down my school list because everyone says "apply broadly" then they also say you should only need 15 well-considered schools, but then there's the comment, "unless you have a low GPA, high MCAT"... SO ... what is broadly in this context? I found something like only 3 schools where I'm within the 10th-90th percentile for both MCAT and GPA. I'm still making my list, but so far I have something like 26 to 30 schools I'm interested in (after removing any we can't move to based on location). I'll post if I get secondaries (which I'm guaranteed NOT to get until I actually add schools to my application. It was approved last week while I was on a road trip, which was a bit of a surprise).

I can't imagine I'll get interviews at my state school that has a 505 median MCAT with a GPA median closer to mine. On the other hand, Johns Hopkins has a 10th-90th GPA from something like 3.8 to 4.0, so an application there is pretty much a donation. I may go with the idea that I should try to find schools where my MCAT is a better match, and then see if there is any hope that they offered just ONE person with a 3.4 a spot (10th percentile in the 3.5 to 3.6 range gives me a very small amount of hope). My freshman year was 2.2 GPA and every year after that was >3.5, so my GPA is low due to an awful freshman year, and I have a solid upward trend. I'm hoping this will give me a little boost.

@Lawper - Do you know the schools where your friends had the most success?
Click to expand...
I'd include some of the t20s, but def want to include the schools ranked outside of the t20, but that maintain high (say 515+) MCAT ranges. For example: Sinai, Case Western, Einstein, Hofstra, OSU, Rochester, USC.

Additional might include the common mid-tier private places like Miami, Tufts, Jefferson, NYMC, Albany, and so on.

And then also your state schools. You'll get interviews there most likely.
 
boogiecousins94 said:
Based on the AAMC table, the 3.2-3.39 and 514-517 only has like 115 applicants I remember correctly...that's very little compared to the overall pool, isn't it around 30,000?
Click to expand...

I think the applicant pool is 50,000 with 20,000 getting accepted. So 115 is pretty much trivial.

DBC03 said:
@Lawper - Do you know the schools where your friends had the most success?
Click to expand...

It was a few cycles ago but iirc they got into Pitt and Mayo. I believe they also got IIs at Penn, WashU, Cornell and Michigan.
 
Lawper said:
I think the applicant pool is 50,000 with 20,000 getting accepted. So 115 is pretty much trivial.



It was a few cycles ago but iirc they got into Pitt and Mayo. I believe they also got IIs at Penn, WashU, Cornell and Michigan.
Click to expand...

Pitt, Mayo, Duke are my top "semi-realistic" choices. I'm non-trad and have a 4.0 post-bac, and Goro gave me a fairly extensive list of schools that tend to accept non-trads in similar situations, so I am trying to use many of his suggestions.
 
From other threads on the topic/n=5 applicants in this category, here are some schools I've seen people have success with:

U Miami
U Pitt (if sig. research experience)
Dartmouth
USC Keck
Tulane
Hofstra
George Washington
Albany
USF Morsani
Western Michigan
Virginia Tech (if sig. research experience)
 
Last edited:
Lawper said:
It was a few cycles ago but iirc they got into Pitt and Mayo. I believe they also got IIs at Penn, WashU, Cornell and Michigan.
Click to expand...
Interesting... were these friends non-trads who completed a post-bacc?

I think those people really skew the data compared to traditional applicants.
 
DoctorCakes said:
Interesting... were these friends non-trads who completed a post-bacc?

I think those people really skew the data compared to traditional applicants.
Click to expand...

Yeah they were nontrads (or had at least taken a couple of years off before applying). I don't know of any trad applicant with low GPA/high MCAT combination.
 
Lawper said:
Yeah they were nontrads (or had at least taken a couple of years off before applying). I don't know of any trad applicant with low GPA/high MCAT combination.
Click to expand...

I'll let you know how it goes.. :banana:
 
I think I may fit into this thread. 3.6 uGPA, 3.62 sGPA, 516 MCAT. So not a terribly low GPA, but it's been steady, with not much of an upward or downward trend. I got a 3.58 in my DIY post-bac even. Only 3 schools in the country have a median GPA lower than mine!


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Overthink said:
From other threads on the topic/n=5 applicants in this category, here are some schools I've seen people have success with:

U Miami
U Pitt (if sig. research experience)
USC Keck
Einstein
Tulane
Hofstra
George Washington
Albany
USF Morsani
Virginia Tech (if sig. research experience)
Click to expand...

Just to counter that, I am matriculating at Pitt in August 🙂 I was a low GPA/high MCAT as described in this thread, and almost zero research experience!
 
ADSigMel said:
I think I may fit into this thread. 3.6 uGPA, 3.62 sGPA, 516 MCAT. So not a terribly low GPA, but it's been steady, with not much of an upward or downward trend. I got a 3.58 in my DIY post-bac even. Only 3 schools in the country have a median GPA lower than mine!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...
A 3.6 is not a low GPA, you'll be a fine applicant
 
I think I fit in here, too. 3.27 first degree, 3.89 second, should be >3.90 this third degree, assuming I don't bomb my last class.

My overall cumulative is around a 3.5, but my MCAT was 515. I'm wondering if I should go ahead and sign up to retake it to improve it, as I hadn't had Physics 2 before I took it and had a good 8 questions on Physics 2 content on my C/P, which therefore ended up being my worst section. I made 131 CARS, 130 Bio/Biochem, 128 Psych/Soc, but the 126 in C/P really brought me down and I know I could have done better if I'd just been exposed to the Physics 2 content first. This is all so confusing and stressful.
 
ADSigMel said:
I think I may fit into this thread. 3.6 uGPA, 3.62 sGPA, 516 MCAT. So not a terribly low GPA, but it's been steady, with not much of an upward or downward trend. I got a 3.58 in my DIY post-bac even. Only 3 schools in the country have a median GPA lower than mine!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...

Median means half the GPAs will be at or below that number. You're totally fine 🙂
 
calivianya said:
I think I fit in here, too. 3.27 first degree, 3.89 second, should be >3.90 this third degree, assuming I don't bomb my last class.

My overall cumulative is around a 3.5, but my MCAT was 515. I'm wondering if I should go ahead and sign up to retake it to improve it, as I hadn't had Physics 2 before I took it and had a good 8 questions on Physics 2 content on my C/P, which therefore ended up being my worst section. I made 131 CARS, 130 Bio/Biochem, 128 Psych/Soc, but the 126 in C/P really brought me down and I know I could have done better if I'd just been exposed to the Physics 2 content first. This is all so confusing and stressful.
Click to expand...
Dont retake a 515! Thats a great score, and retaking one that high is frowned upon, even if you do better.
 
ADSigMel said:
I think I may fit into this thread. 3.6 uGPA, 3.62 sGPA, 516 MCAT. So not a terribly low GPA, but it's been steady, with not much of an upward or downward trend. I got a 3.58 in my DIY post-bac even. Only 3 schools in the country have a median GPA lower than mine!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...

You should be fine. Only a handful of schools have 10th percentile GPAs that are lower than mine


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
LabTech12 said:
Just to counter that, I am matriculating at Pitt in August 🙂 I was a low GPA/high MCAT as described in this thread, and almost zero research experience!
Click to expand...

Any hints on Pitt applications? It's one of my top picks right now!


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wildcherry said:
Median means half the GPAs will be at or below that number. You're totally fine 🙂
Click to expand...

Intellectually, I know that. And I promise that I'm usually not the neurotic type, but hanging out on SDN makes me so uptight! I have to keep repeating the mantra "the bottom half of matriculants are still people who matriculated" to remind myself that below average =\= not accepted.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
calivianya said:
I think I fit in here, too. 3.27 first degree, 3.89 second, should be >3.90 this third degree, assuming I don't bomb my last class.

My overall cumulative is around a 3.5, but my MCAT was 515. I'm wondering if I should go ahead and sign up to retake it to improve it, as I hadn't had Physics 2 before I took it and had a good 8 questions on Physics 2 content on my C/P, which therefore ended up being my worst section. I made 131 CARS, 130 Bio/Biochem, 128 Psych/Soc, but the 126 in C/P really brought me down and I know I could have done better if I'd just been exposed to the Physics 2 content first. This is all so confusing and stressful.
Click to expand...

Do not retake a 515! Finish school strong, you'll be ok that's a great trend
 
DBC03 said:
I'm a 3.4 (both c/s GPA) with a 522 (I think LizzyM is 73). I'm having a terribly difficult time narrowing down my school list because everyone says "apply broadly" then they also say you should only need 15 well-considered schools, but then there's the comment, "unless you have a low GPA, high MCAT"... SO ... what is broadly in this context? I found something like only 3 schools where I'm within the 10th-90th percentile for both MCAT and GPA. I'm still making my list, but so far I have something like 26 to 30 schools I'm interested in (after removing any we can't move to based on location). I'll post if I get secondaries (which I'm guaranteed NOT to get until I actually add schools to my application. It was approved last week while I was on a road trip, which was a bit of a surprise).

I can't imagine I'll get interviews at my state school that has a 505 median MCAT with a GPA median closer to mine. On the other hand, Johns Hopkins has a 10th-90th GPA from something like 3.8 to 4.0, so an application there is pretty much a donation. I may go with the idea that I should try to find schools where my MCAT is a better match, and then see if there is any hope that they offered just ONE person with a 3.4 a spot (10th percentile in the 3.5 to 3.6 range gives me a very small amount of hope). My freshman year was 2.2 GPA and every year after that was >3.5, so my GPA is low due to an awful freshman year, and I have a solid upward trend. I'm hoping this will give me a little boost.

@Lawper - Do you know the schools where your friends had the most success?
Click to expand...
3.4 is within the 10th percentile for almost all mid tiers, and some top tiers. I'd say if you have a steep UW trend , and/or are from a grade-deflating school, you could safely do mostly T20's with a few mid tiers and your state school.
I'm actually very curious how your app cycle will turn out...keep us posted 😛
 
mwsapphire said:
3.4 is within the 10th percentile for almost all mid tiers, and some top tiers. I'd say if you have a steep UW trend , and/or are from a grade-deflating school, you could safely do mostly T20's with a few mid tiers and your state school.
I'm actually very curious how your app cycle will turn out...keep us posted 😛
Click to expand...

I'm a Princeton grad, so grade deflation was a real thing (no seriously - it caught me by surprise my freshman year). And I had a significant upward trend, 4.0 post bac. I don't know why I'm having a hard time finding schools with my GPA in range, but I had to cut all cities my husband couldn't transfer to, and some state schools, so I'm somewhat limited (had something like 45 possible schools - limited to around 30). I will keep you all posted with any success or failure!

Btw - how do Texas schools view OOS students? I've nixed them for now, but wondering if I should give them a shot.


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sarcasm said:
AHH I feel supported by this group!

3.4, 515, applying MD-PhD to schools where the median MCAT is <515!
Click to expand...

What schools are these/ are they non-MSTP ones? I've been trying to find some that are "lower tier" MD/PhD and some that consider you simultaneously for both MD and MD/PhD but only found a few like Miami and Dartmouth
 
boogiecousins94 said:
What schools are these/ are they non-MSTP ones? I've been trying to find some that are "lower tier" MD/PhD and some that consider you simultaneously for both MD and MD/PhD but only found a few like Miami and Dartmouth
Click to expand...
The MSTP are generally more competitive than the non-MSTP MD/PhD programs is my understanding, so yeah I'd start here:

MD-PhD Degree Programs by State

and focus on the non-MSTP ones
 
boogiecousins94 said:
What schools are these/ are they non-MSTP ones? I've been trying to find some that are "lower tier" MD/PhD and some that consider you simultaneously for both MD and MD/PhD but only found a few like Miami and Dartmouth
Click to expand...

I was previously interested in MD/PhD and talked with successful MD/PhD students from my SMP. YMMV but here are some schools where high MCAT made up for a lower GPA:

Stony Brook MSTP
U Illinois MSTP
U Mass MSTP
Penn State MSTP
U Miami
Boston
 
Lawper said:
I'm willing to bet low GPA/high MCAT folks will have significantly greater success in their application cycles than what SDN predicts. I think MCAT is the key determinant of what schools to apply to since it's a standardized exam with predictive value on board performance. So their application cycle will not be that unpredictable, and they can probably get some interviews from top tiers with high MCAT medians.
Click to expand...

This is anecdotal (take it with a grain of salt as someone who is applying for the first time next cycle), but I work for a physician who has been on a couple admissions boards on the East Coast and he shares the same sentiment. He was telling me that MCAT weighs a lot heavier than GPA in most cases because it neutralizes the applicants into one level playing field instead of having to consider majors/classes/universities when looking at GPA. GPA is important too, obviously.
 
dr.Breezy said:
Got accepted to a top 20 and a few mid/low tier schools with a sub 3.3 gpa and >95 percentile mcat so it's possible peeps


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Click to expand...

Do you mind if I ask what the strongest part of your application was?
 
Gauss44 said:
Do you mind if I ask what the strongest part of your application was?
Click to expand...

Well aside from my MCAT score, I would say a history of working with underserved and disadvantaged communities, and substantial research experience (though no publications) was a strong point. Ultimately, I also think my essays were well written (edited multiple times) and really told a good story of who I am and why I want to go into medicine. I didn't do a post-back or SMP or nothing like that, so I just had my MCAT to speak to my academic abilities. I am a minority but not one that has traditionally been seen as a URM


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think I might fit into this sub. my cGPA is ok (3.7) but my science GPA = 3.54. MCAT = 517 (took April 2017) BUT in 2014 I took the old MCAT twice and bombed (24,25)! 🙁 Had a really difficult time choosing schools due to my low science GPA and my two terrible MCAT scores from 2014. I am hoping the new MCAT score of 517 will convince committees I am motivated and capable. I ended up applying to about 25 schools because I had such a difficult time fitting myself into published statistics. Any thoughts or guidance would be appreciated....I'm getting so anxious. What do you guys think about my low science GPA and 2 2014 low MCAT scores?
 
LabTech12 said:
I felt like showing leadership and intellectual creativity (not research related) did it for me!
Click to expand...

I haven't submitted, yet, but my second essay is about being a designer and how I apply that to problem solving. I think that falls within those lines. I'll submit this weekend or Monday (I always like to sit on an essay for a few days to make sure it's as good as possible). Thanks!


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