*** 2020-2021 MD/PhD cycle - Questions, Comments, and other things ***

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Fencer said:
Absolutely ... NO! It would be a class action lawsuit. What happens is that the program re-submit their T32 application with critical revision addressing the concerns of the reviewers. If the program isn't funded for a few years of lapse, because the reviewers were too critical or the program was too complacent requiring several years of remediation, is that the MD/PhD program might re-size their entry classes, but not too far, as they need to be seen still very attractive for the T32 reviewers.
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Thank you!
 
Congrats to all of you receiving many wonderful acceptances. I am now several years into my MD/PhD and I remember the broad range of emotions I experienced during this time in my application cycle. It is a lot! Be present for all of it and remember that even the hard moments will pass and you will find your path, whatever that may be.

A handful of you will face the enviable position of holding many acceptances. Remember to be kind and quickly withdraw from places you are no longer considering. It is hard to let go of those possibilities but remember that each decline from you is an opportunity for someone else, and possibly one less day of the awful waiting we all hate.

A word of advice as you face the daunting task of narrowing your decision -- consider your future at these programs beyond just the pre-clinical period/PhD choices. Remember you are a dynamic, ever evolving person and you will be at that school for eight, nine... ten years. I bet where you were eight years ago was very different. Envision your future and interrogate whether these places, in both geographic location and in terms of the program itself, will accommodate your growth and change. Challenge yourself to imagine the scope of possibilities you will have in your life and then find a program that will support you in all of those ways. Some specific aspects - you will likely not work with the faculty you think you will, most of my class did not, so are the PhD programs/departments full of exciting, supportive faculty? What is the NIH individual fellowship grant success like? what support is there in writing these? how is the financial support of the fellowship and how does it evolve over time and in various situations? For example, what if you have a child? if you have a spouse can they be on your health insurance? Where do people live in each of their stages of training? Could you possibly buy a house and live in the suburbs with your partner and child (or pets!)? What do people do for fun and are you hobbies possible in that city/town? Do you see the program leadership as a group of people you could go to in a crisis? or what about when you want to celebrate your successes? What opportunities are there to involve all year students with the program (if any! some programs may not involve upper year students in many things). Your dream program should be your safety net in your worst moment, elevate you at your very best, and allow you to live out your 20s and 30s enjoying all that your non-medicine/science life will offer.
 
On Friday, we crossed the 75% line for the number of applicants who will eventually get a MD/PhD acceptance. There are still 1/4 applicants with a lot of potential who will be pulled from formal (and informal) waitlists over the next 2.5 months for their first MD/PhD acceptance. As in prior years, I will be doing a few webinars during late March and April aimed for those applicants who need to improve their applications to get to enroll into a MD/PhD program. In addition, as expected the MCAT/cGPA of the group of people who have been given at least one AC is trailing down. I will post numbers on or before Monday.

My own accepted students have received on average 3.4 acceptances (MD or MD/PhD) and my alternate pool has also on average 1.1 acceptances (MD or MD/PhD). In terms of numbers, I suspect that my program is near the median/averages of all MD/PhD programs. This is one of the reasons why I believe that we will have more activity in the waitlist during the 2021 cycle. In many conversations, it is my impression that terrific applicants applied/interviewed at more MD/PhD programs in the virtual interviewing season. Lastly, I started to receive a "few" withdrawals before or after acceptance.
 
Fencer said:
My own accepted students have received on average 3.4 acceptances (MD or MD/PhD) and my alternate pool has also on average 1.1 acceptances (MD or MD/PhD). In terms of numbers,
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@Fencer Are you saying that program directors are able to see how many or which medical school acceptances a student has?
 
love2chis said:
@Fencer Are you saying that program directors are able to see how many or which medical school acceptances a student has?
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I believe what programs see is the cumulative total of acceptances in their own pool of all they've accepted, so Fencer can calculate an average number of acceptances per person as a result.
 
As indicated by wpneuro, we see an aggregate of our own accepted pool, if you exceed certain thresholds in the number of acceptances. I do not know who has those multiple acceptances, but I do know that only ~18% of my accepted students only have my acceptance (that is the overwhelming majority of my accepted applicants have multiple ACs).
 
@wpneuro Thanks.

@Fencer Thanks. Are you concerned your accepted students have so many As in addition to yours? Did you give more As because of that?
 
@Fencer Out of curiosity - does that 3.4 acceptances figure you cited mean those applicants are actively holding that many acceptances (as in they are options on CYMS)? Does the number you see decrease as applicants withdraw an acceptance or is it a running total of all the acceptances they accrue over a cycle, regardless of whether they withdrew them?
 
The traffic rules for students allow people to hold up to 3 acceptances after April 15. By April 30, you should make decisions and choose only 1 program. It has been my view for many years, that once an applicant gets 4 or more acceptances, they should withdraw from at least one (or more) and reduce the working number of AC to 3 or 2 programs. In our case, >1/3 of accepted applicants are holding 4 or more ACs. Making hard-decisions (i.e.: withdrawing from a possible program) allows programs to extend additional ACs to other applicants, after all, these will be your peers for your professional lifetime. I also have had a long-standing view that the April 15 deadline should be moved earlier to March 30. The traffic rules for programs indicate that by March 15, they need to extend at minimum the number of ACs that would fill their entry class.
 
Fencer said:
My own accepted students have received on average 3.4 acceptances (MD or MD/PhD) and my alternate pool has also on average 1.1 acceptances (MD or MD/PhD). In terms of numbers, I suspect that my program is near the median/averages of all MD/PhD programs. This is one of the reasons why I believe that we will have more activity in the waitlist during the 2021 cycle.
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@Fencer Can you comment on if the numbers you're reporting are typical of an application cycle? You mentioned increased waitlist movement; have you noticed that more applicants are holding onto more acceptances than usual?
 
Should we assume if we haven’t heard anything from schools post-II yet that we have been waitlisted? I interviewed at 9 schools but have only gotten decisions from 2 so far even though most of my interviews were October/November
 
fishberry said:
If all the interview sessions on the Google Doc have passed, do I assume I’m rejected from that MD PhD program?
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Yes/most likely for those listed in the Google Calendar.

mdphd_hopeful_7353 said:
Should we assume if we haven’t heard anything from schools post-II yet that we have been waitlisted? I interviewed at 9 schools but have only gotten decisions from 2 so far even though most of my interviews were October/November
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Yes/most likely - with 9 interviews >95% chance of getting in (unless doing the same mistake in every interview).
 
Update as of last night sync to 3/1/2021

As of overnight sync to 3/1/2021ncGPAMCAT
Total MD/PhD Applicants20583.66510.5
Withdrew before AC113.54506.6
Rejected Group (PR,PW,RJ)13123.59508.1
Preliminary Rejection903.36500.5
Passive Withdrawal113.80510.1
Reject12113.61508.7
At least one MD/PhD AC6093.81516.9
Withdrew After AC13.92512.0
Deferral to future year13.95507.0
Currently Accepted6073.81516.9
Actively Available (AL,RS,IN)553.52503.9
Alternate63.68512.3
Request Secondary403.45501.9
Interview93.75507.3
Passively Available (NA,HO)713.51502.3
No Action613.51502.0
Hold103.52504.1
 
wpneuro said:
@Fencer Can you comment on if the numbers you're reporting are typical of an application cycle? You mentioned increased waitlist movement; have you noticed that more applicants are holding onto more acceptances than usual?
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For my school, this year we applicants have an average of 3.1 acceptances + ours, so 4.1 total acceptances. Last year, applicants had an average of 2.4 acceptances + ours, so 3.4 acceptances. None of our accepted applicants has 0 other acceptances, which is very unusual. We have similar numbers of applicants holding 4 or 5+ acceptances compared to last year. So basically, the curve for us appears shifted to the right by 1 acceptance on average.

We have many students on the wait list who are qualified. Please use the CYMS tool to give us an indication of interest and/or also release your spot to a deserving applicant if you are no longer interested in a program.
 
We are now up to 3.8 ACs/accepted student while last year, we were at 2.9 at this point. One thing is that 3 AC students are having problems making or communicating decisions, hoarding 24 ACs (more than 6 ACs each)....

I have said this before. AMCAS should have a hard rule that no student could hold more than 5 ACs at any point after March 1. If they have 5 ACs, no program should be able to extend AC #6; such a rule would force people to stay below the max cap as they might make room for AC from dream school.
 
Fencer said:
We are now up to 3.8 ACs/accepted student while last year, we were at 2.9 at this point. One thing is that 3 AC students are having problems making or communicating decisions, hoarding 24 ACs (more than 6 ACs each)....

I have said this before. AMCAS should have a hard rule that no student could hold more than 5 ACs at any point after March 1. If they have 5 ACs, no program should be able to extend AC #6; such a rule would force people to stay below the max cap as they might make room for AC from dream school.
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45% of our admitted applicants are holding 5+ slots.
 
MSTPadvocate said:
45% of our admitted applicants are holding 5+ slots.
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Fencer said:
We are now up to 3.8 ACs/accepted student while last year, we were at 2.9 at this point. One thing is that 3 AC students are having problems making or communicating decisions, hoarding 24 ACs (more than 6 ACs each)....

I have said this before. AMCAS should have a hard rule that no student could hold more than 5 ACs at any point after March 1. If they have 5 ACs, no program should be able to extend AC #6; such a rule would force people to stay below the max cap as they might make room for AC from dream school.
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This makes me feel better about waiting on the waitlist at least...
P.S. I love everyone who is actively narrowing down their schools and communicating that.

Edit: Should I/we be expecting MD/PhD waitlist movement on 03/15?
 
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Fencer said:
Update as of last night sync to 3/1/2021:
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As always, I appreciate these updates Fencer! Could you speak to the low numbers we've been seeing in the "Alternate" category? I know for the last couple of updates, they've been in the single digits. Surely there aren't 6 people in the entire cycle on the WL, so could you speak to what other categories those students are placed in?
 
wc96 said:
As always, I appreciate these updates Fencer! Could you speak to the low numbers we've been seeing in the "Alternate" category? I know for the last couple of updates, they've been in the single digits. Surely there aren't 6 people in the entire cycle on the WL, so could you speak to what other categories those students are placed in?
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I am not sure of course, but since you go in the 'highest' possible bucket, my guess would be that the overwhelming number of people who have a waitlist right now also have an acceptance and therefore go in the acceptance bucket. It does still seem a little low that only 6 people are currently holding only waitlists, but more possible.
 
kittensneezes said:
I am not sure of course, but since you go in the 'highest' possible bucket, my guess would be that the overwhelming number of people who have a waitlist right now also have an acceptance and therefore go in the acceptance bucket. It does still seem a little low that only 6 people are currently holding only waitlists, but more possible.
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That would make me one of them then lol. I’ve got only waitlists and deferrals no acceptances
 
kittensneezes said:
I am not sure of course, but since you go in the 'highest' possible bucket, my guess would be that the overwhelming number of people who have a waitlist right now also have an acceptance and therefore go in the acceptance bucket. It does still seem a little low that only 6 people are currently holding only waitlists, but more possible.
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@Fencer if the above poster is correct, can an applicant be placed in the acceptance bucket if they hold an MD-only acceptance? I'm also assuming the acceptance bucket doesn't account for DO's or DO/Ph.D.?
 
wc96 said:
I’m in the same boat and I doubt we’re 33% of that group 😂
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Same here, except I’m still waiting to hear back from two schools. I think that should put me in the “interview” category?
 
This is the best placement for each applicant as per the AMCAS algorithm for the daily admissions actions report. I have not seen the code, but I have been told that WA>AC>WB>IN>NA, etc. You do that for every school and the cumulative sum is what is reported. While this report is for MD/PhD acceptances, a RJ applicant might be holding a MD-only AC. Now, some schools tell you that you are waitlisted (Alternate) in their MD/PhD lists, but their SOM Admission Officer who reports actions in AMCAS might not be reporting the change from Interview, Request Secondary, etc., and these Admission Officers might just place the students in temporary buckets. I have a hard time believing that many of these MD/PhD interviewees are sitting in the PR or other bucket. I suspect that some are presumed Rejected, but later reverse that rejection when the MD/PhD office tells them that they are accepting this interviewed applicant. Most MD/PhD programs do not actively interact with AMCAS admission actions. The reason why I do is because the rest of my school utilizes TMDSAS for the MD-only program.
 
DoctorWhere said:
Should we expect MD/PhD waitlist movement on 03/15?
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I'd also be curious to know. My best guess is we wont really start to see movement until April 15th when applicants with >3 acceptances have to start making some choices and cut down to 3.

Case Western sent out an email saying this however, which gives some hope for March 15th

"We are hoping that after March 15, the date when all programs must have accepted at least as many students as they have spots, the dominos might start to fall and we are able to make more offers."
 
Historically, we have a bumpy road with withdrawals and new acceptances between March 15 and April 20, and it accelerates between April 21 and May 10. As indicated by several MSTP leaders in this forum, this year (COVID, virtual interviews, etc.), we had slightly more applicants (14% than last year) and in general, higher proportion of students with more acceptances. At the end of the cycle, I think numbers will be ok, but to ease the pain of those with few or no acceptances, please withdraw from some programs if you have more than 4 choices. It will allow us to make more offers as that email said.
 
mdphd_hopeful_7353 said:
Is there a date that schools have to communicate at least some decision to applicants? Or is that just up to the schools themselves
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I believe by March 15th schools have to have made as many offers as they have positions in their program, and I would imagine many schools will give waitlist notifications that day, too. I’m not sure about “some decision” because last year I did not formally hear from University of Miami about my rejection until August when I had already submitted my second year of secondaries.
 
The day of matriculation is often the day of orientation, when a school finally completes its cycle and certifies final actions for all applicants. For some, that day is when it is the last day of admission action submissions deadline in AAMC for the cycle (too late, Sep. of MS-1). Now, most schools/programs communicate with applicants prior to those dates... Our national system sucks... we should have a match without bargaining or heavy pressure for applicants or programs. I have this many slots, you have this list, computer come up with best choices for both of us. Unfortunately, there are too many interests that prevent this idea...
 
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plsletmebeadoctor said:
How common is it to actually make it in off the waitlist? I am wondering if there is any hope lol
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Same. I’m currently sitting on 5 deferred + waitlist. So far no acceptances or post interview rejections, but the wait is really starting to get to me after not hearing back for so long.
 
plsletmebeadoctor said:
How common is it to actually make it in off the waitlist? I am wondering if there is any hope lol
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onesadmachine said:
Same. I’m currently sitting on 5 deferred + waitlist. So far no acceptances or post interview rejections, but the wait is really starting to get to me after not hearing back for so long.
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Two MSTP program directors with 6-8 slots said that they usually go into the 20s in terms of acceptances to fill their class
 
It depends on the program and on how you define waitlist. If you do rolling admissions, you might extend none, one or two acceptances after each interview (i.e. in Nov.), and all other applicants go into the pool (waitlist). Once you finish interviews, in Feb/March, you extend formal waitlists. Every year, I take several people out from the formal waitlist. Some times as early as March, some in April, and almost always at least one during May. The top MSTPs might have relatively few spots open, but as a group they steal an accepted applicant late (after April 25) every year from my list, which means that I need to refill.
 
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As of last night (3/18/21) dataset:

GroupSub-groupncGPAMCAT
Total MD/PhD Applicants20613.66511.6
Withdrew Before AC83.44505.8
Rejected group (PR,PW,RJ)12833.58508.7
At least one MD/PhD AC6953.81517.1
Withdrew After AC53.89514.2
Defer to later years13.95507.0
Currently AC or Matric.6893.81517.2
Actively Available (RS,AL,IN)353.53504.2
Passively Available (NA,HO)403.46502.2

Once again, there are at least 100 deserving applicants who have not yet received their first acceptance. Programs are waiting for applicants to withdraw from their multiple acceptances. If you have more than 4 ACs, help your peers by making hard choices. If needed, please contact programs for a Virtual re-visit with some students and faculty.
 
Update as of last night (4/1/2021) dataset

Group as of 04/01/2021SubgroupnTotal MCATTotal GPA Mean
Total MD/PhD Applicants2064510.53.66
Withdrew Before Acceptance7503.63.49
Rejected Groups (PR,PW,RJ)1263507.43.58
At least one MD/PhD Acceptance727516.43.80
Withdrew After Acceptance8515.63.92
Defer to future year1507.03.95
Currently Accepted / Matriculated718516.43.80
Available - active (AL,RS,IN)31503.73.55
Available - passive (NA,HO)36499.73.44

If you interviewed at MD/PhD programs and still do not have an MD/PhD acceptance, you should know that historically there are about >80 additional applicants who WILL receive their first MD/PhD acceptance over the next 6 weeks. There is still a significant possibility that you will get into a MD/PhD program with all of their perks (and blood, toil, tears and sweat). Now, the matriculating class is just full... there are about 70+ who will withdraw to enter into a MD-only program, and about 10+ who will defer to a later year. Until people make decisions, the waitlists are going to be moving slowly. Traditionally, the weeks of April 19 to May 7 is when most of the musical chair swaps happen. One of the future years, our community will finally see that a MD/PhD match is just not a bad idea, and reduces a lot the angst of this process.
 
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Fencer said:
Update as of last night (4/1/2021) dataset

Group as of 04/01/2021SubgroupnTotal flowersTotal treats! Mean
Total MD/PhD Peeps2064510.53.66
Withdrew Before Acceptance7503.63.49
Rejected Groups (PR,PW,RJ)1263507.43.58
At least one MD/PhD Acceptance727516.43.80
Withdrew After Acceptance8515.63.92
Defer to future year1507.03.95
Currently Accepted / Matriculated718516.43.80
Available - active (AL,RS,IN)31503.73.55
Available - passive (NA,HO)36499.73.44

If you interviewed at MD/PhD programs, you should know that historically there are about >80 additional Peeps who WILL receive their first MD/PhD acceptance over the next 6 weeks. There is still a significant possibility that you will get into a MD/PhD program with all of their perks (and blood, toil, tears and sweat). Now, the matriculating class is just full... there are about 70+ who will withdraw to enter into a MD-only program, and about 10+ who will defer to a later year. Until people make decisions, the waitlists are going to be moving slowly. Traditionally, the weeks of April 19 to May 7 is when most of the musical chairs swaps happen. One of the future years, our community will finally see that a MD/PhD match is just not a bad idea, and reduces a lot the angst of this process.
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Thank you @Fencer for these updates. Hopefully everyone else on only waitlists gets some love this month! Still sitting on 5 waitlists myself and haven't heard a peep...
 
@AZDev
Sorry about SDs, but it is more complicated. It is not appropriate to just add the SDs of MCAT sections to calculate total MCAT score variance for each subgroup (and then groups). I need more information that what is available.

@ingobingo
A few additional applicants are often added late as people who deferred in a prior year have to re-activate their application for the present year as a single school application.
 
I've been reading and searching this forum for awhile and can't seem to find the answer to my question. I did read the sticky post about acceptance timelines but since it was last updated prior to the new acceptance process I wasn't sure how much of it still applied. If this has been previously answered I apologize.

I have received an acceptance from an MSTP program and I am concerned about the dates. The acceptance letter says I have until April 8th to commit to the program and receive financial assistance. If I fail to commit by this date I still have until April15th to commit but I am not guaranteed to receive the financial assistance. Currently I am not able to see the acceptance in the AMCAS system. This is currently my only acceptance but I am still on several wait lists and would prefer to wait until after April 30th to make my decision. I like the program but having to commit early could limit my options and my final decision, if I get an acceptance, most likely will come down to this program and one other.

Since these dates do not match the AMCAS dates are they binding? In other words, if I commit can I change my mind if I get acceptance to one of my wait list schools? I don't want to do anything that might look dishonest or unethical but I would like to leave my options open. Any insight or suggests are welcome.
 
Fencer said:
That is arm-wrestling you. Inappropriate... Provide them with your FAFSA information but tell them that as per AMCAS Traffic Rules, at the moment, you are only "Planning to Enroll".
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Thank you for the quick response. Your answer really helps.
 
MDPHDhopefull said:
I've been reading and searching this forum for awhile and can't seem to find the answer to my question. I did read the sticky post about acceptance timelines but since it was last updated prior to the new acceptance process I wasn't sure how much of it still applied. If this has been previously answered I apologize.

I have received an acceptance from an MSTP program and I am concerned about the dates. The acceptance letter says I have until April 8th to commit to the program and receive financial assistance. If I fail to commit by this date I still have until April15th to commit but I am not guaranteed to receive the financial assistance. Currently I am not able to see the acceptance in the AMCAS system. This is currently my only acceptance but I am still on several wait lists and would prefer to wait until after April 30th to make my decision. I like the program but having to commit early could limit my options and my final decision, if I get an acceptance, most likely will come down to this program and one other.

Since these dates do not match the AMCAS dates are they binding? In other words, if I commit can I change my mind if I get acceptance to one of my wait list schools? I don't want to do anything that might look dishonest or unethical but I would like to leave my options open. Any insight or suggests are welcome.
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Can an MSTP do that? Aren’t they supposed to guarantee funding?
 
Fencer said:
Update as of last night (4/1/2021) dataset

Group as of 04/01/2021SubgroupnTotal MCATTotal GPA Mean
Total MD/PhD Applicants2064510.53.66
Withdrew Before Acceptance7503.63.49
Rejected Groups (PR,PW,RJ)1263507.43.58
At least one MD/PhD Acceptance727516.43.80
Withdrew After Acceptance8515.63.92
Defer to future year1507.03.95
Currently Accepted / Matriculated718516.43.80
Available - active (AL,RS,IN)31503.73.55
Available - passive (NA,HO)36499.73.44

If you interviewed at MD/PhD programs and still do not have an MD/PhD acceptance, you should know that historically there are about >80 additional applicants who WILL receive their first MD/PhD acceptance over the next 6 weeks. There is still a significant possibility that you will get into a MD/PhD program with all of their perks (and blood, toil, tears and sweat). Now, the matriculating class is just full... there are about 70+ who will withdraw to enter into a MD-only program, and about 10+ who will defer to a later year. Until people make decisions, the waitlists are going to be moving slowly. Traditionally, the weeks of April 19 to May 7 is when most of the musical chair swaps happen. One of the future years, our community will finally see that a MD/PhD match is just not a bad idea, and reduces a lot the angst of this process.
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As someone who is holding only waitlists, the stats for the Available candidates concerns me a bit. Do the below average stats (compared to the other categories in this chart) indicate that the majority of those getting off of the waitlists this late in the cycle will be going into lower ranked programs? If so, does this mean that the T20 schools will be more likely to shuffle around acceptances rather than pull from this pool of applicants?
 
Typically, the musical chair swaps that happen between the ides of April and May is from Top 20 needing to fill taking accepted applicants from 20-50, who in turn fill by taking other accepted applicants from programs that fill in... Now, those applicants at each of those programs were waitlisted at that particular school. We do not know when we offer an acceptance as to whether you are accepted or just waitlisted. We just take the next best candidate for the spot... (often, it happens that the candidate has been found acceptable to others; rarely, the applicant has only been waitlisted everywhere....).
 
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