3.35 cGPA, 3.09 sGPA, Originally DPT School Applicant turned Med School Applicant, chances?

[blw14]

Hello All!

Looking for options and room of improvement.
I was originally pursuing DPT/AT school and got into my #1 choice. It's a dual DPT/MSAT program that accepts 5 students for their cohort. The program starts late May. A recent change of heart influenced me to jump ship and join the med school train (swaying more towards DO given their roles and responsibilities in our health care system appeal to me more). I want to play a bigger role in health care, and the position of a PT nor AT allows me to do that.

24 year-old
Graduated from University of Arizona 2014-2018 with a B.S. Nutritional Sciences Minor: Biochemistry
cGPA: 3.35 (upward trend starting at 2.91)
sGPA: 3.09
MCAT: n/a (what score should I shoot for? 511> given my GPA?)
Gen Chem 1/2: B/C
OCHEM 1/2: B/B
Gen Bio 1/2: B/B
Gen Phys 1/2 (CC): A/B
ANAT&PSIO 1/2: B/B
Calc 1/2: C/C
BIOC 1/2: B/A
Eng 1/2: A/A
Psych: A
Sociology: n/a

• 3000 hours outpatient orthopedic PT clinic (PT/OT)
• 2000 hours University of Arizona D1 Collegiate Athletics (AT)
• 8 hours shadow Sports Med Physician
• 40 hours ED Tucson Medical center
• 40 hours Parkinson's Wellness Recovery Gym
• Sports RDN Intern 2 Semesters
• 200 hours POWWOW (local Tucson food bank)
• Volunteer/paid swim coach
• 1 year Resident Assistant
• 2 years Team member of Student Health Advocacy Committee (organized an on-campus influenza vaccination clinic for under-represented student population)

I am lacking MCAT score, clinic hours, decent competitive cGPA and sGPA, possibly more volunteer hours. My plan is to obtain more hours shadowing PA's, MD's, DO's, RN's. Obtain a scribing position. Study and take the MCAT. To solve the remedy of my crippling GPA, am I to take a post-bacc? SMP? Self-made post-bacc by taking CC classes for science courses?

Looking for advice and guidance. Harsh criticism needed if I want to apply this upcoming round. Realistically, I do not think I will get in the first round so preparing for the long haul. Thank you.

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[Alkaidius]

Agreed, but even with an awesome MCAT you should do something about that GPA. You’ll probably see SMP or graduate programs thrown around in just a sec. It would be very unfortunate if your MCAT was stellar but your GPA was holding you back, because you’d be stuck between a rock and a hard place since the MCAT only lasts a few years. I think your extracurriculars are...excessive. Like, if you want to optimize your chances, I wouldn’t bother doing anything else in that department. Keep focus on your GPA and MCAT. I personally would highly recommend doing each of those individually. I.e. don’t study for the MCAT in the middle of whatever program you’re using to raise your GPA. You’ll tie your mind in knots. You’ll effectively be putting garbage in and getting garbage out.

 

[PapaGuava]

Thread moved to WAMC.

 

[candbgirl]

Do not shadow PAs or RNs unless you are still trying to rule them out as career paths. Be sure to shadow a DO and get a letter. Some DO schools do require a letter from a doctor, preferably a DO. At some point you might be asked why med school all of a sudden. Are you running away from PT for some reason?

Whether you are competitive for DO schools will be largely dependent on your MCAT score. Your GPAs are very low, especially your sGPA. It might be wise to take some upper level science courses to get your sGPA up as high as you can. I don’t know how effective SMPs are at DO schools, but DO schools do include Master grades in your GPA. So you might want to think about getting a Masters in a hard science. Or maybe not.

This will take awhile to get ready to apply but if you want it badly enough you’ll figure it out. Plan to take the MCAT once and only when you are scoring at or above your goal score on FL practice tests.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Hello All!

Looking for options and room of improvement.
I was originally pursuing DPT/AT school and got into my #1 choice. It's a dual DPT/MSAT program that accepts 5 students for their cohort. The program starts late May. A recent change of heart influenced me to jump ship and join the med school train (swaying more towards DO given their roles and responsibilities in our health care system appeal to me more). I want to play a bigger role in health care, and the position of a PT nor AT allows me to do that.

24 year-old
Graduated from University of Arizona 2014-2018 with a B.S. Nutritional Sciences Minor: Biochemistry
cGPA: 3.35 (upward trend starting at 2.91)
sGPA: 3.09
MCAT: n/a (what score should I shoot for? 511> given my GPA?)
Gen Chem 1/2: B/C
OCHEM 1/2: B/B
Gen Bio 1/2: B/B
Gen Phys 1/2 (CC): A/B
ANAT&PSIO 1/2: B/B
Calc 1/2: C/C
BIOC 1/2: B/A
Eng 1/2: A/A
Psych: A
Sociology: n/a

• 3000 hours outpatient orthopedic PT clinic (PT/OT)
• 2000 hours University of Arizona D1 Collegiate Athletics (AT)
• 8 hours shadow Sports Med Physician
• 40 hours ED Tucson Medical center
• 40 hours Parkinson's Wellness Recovery Gym
• Sports RDN Intern 2 Semesters
• 200 hours POWWOW (local Tucson food bank)
• Volunteer/paid swim coach
• 1 year Resident Assistant
• 2 years Team member of Student Health Advocacy Committee (organized an on-campus influenza vaccination clinic for under-represented student population)

I am lacking MCAT score, clinic hours, decent competitive cGPA and sGPA, possibly more volunteer hours. My plan is to obtain more hours shadowing PA's, MD's, DO's, RN's. Obtain a scribing position. Study and take the MCAT. To solve the remedy of my crippling GPA, am I to take a post-bacc? SMP? Self-made post-bacc by taking CC classes for science courses?

Looking for advice and guidance. Harsh criticism needed if I want to apply this upcoming round. Realistically, I do not think I will get in the first round so preparing for the long haul. Thank you.

Explain that change of heart even more. That sGPA has to be much higher, and you probably should go for a SMP, but you will need to shoot for 3.7+ in a master's program and a very strong MCAT to give yourself a shot. I think you may need a little bit more experience with doctor shadowing, but I don't think more patient-centered experience is needed. But you're looking at least another 1-2 or so years and 4 years of significant debt to pay off. (be around 30-31 when you graduate?) Your DPT I think will take you 2-3 years and not as much debt by the time you are 30. And PT's are definitely in need.

 

[blw14]

Thank you for all your feedback. I had a feeling an SMP would be needed. Before I get to my questions, I will elaborate on my decision to pursue med school.
Like I said, I was accepted into a very selective DPT/MSAT program. They take 5 students out of 200 DPT interview applicant pool and ~100 MSAT interview applicant pool. I had worked for 5 long years to earn that program, hence the obscene number of hours and ECs. A total of 6 LOR's was submitted for this program, 2 of which came from alumni of that school/program. I had all the eggs in my basket to earn that acceptance. But when I got that acceptance letter, I only felt a sigh of relief, as if a huge load had been lifted off my shoulder. Later on I realized it was the feeling of obligation that really pushed me through this PT application process and not excitement or thrill of becoming and studying therapeutical sciences.

Right after my acceptance, I was on a trip to see my family in Malaysia. I had learned that my auntie passed away due to a physician's misdiagnose, making me realize that I have a larger role to play in patient care and my capabilities as a PT is limited. I realized that to some, Physical Therapy is a luxury. I learned that my grandmother was diagnosed with a mild case of adhesive capsulitis, "frozen shoulder", easily dealt with PT however, PT is not emphasized in Malaysia. When it comes to preserving money, money must be saved for promoting health instead of way of life sometimes. Later I learned that this mentality is adopted in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, the Philippines, multiple southeast asian countries. I saw reflections of that in America too. While PT seems more readily available in America, it is still out of reach for many.

I love PT's, AT's, OT's. My love for medicine originated because of rehab science but years of being immersed in the area has made me realized that there are, personally, more cons than pros for pursuing PT/AT. Your DPT I think will take you 2-3 years and not as much debt by the time you are 30. I would argue that ever since the transition from a MPT->DPT, schools have taken advantage of this and has significantly raised their tuition costs, resulting in a disproportionate debt:salary ratio. So while the the debt accumulated from med school is larger, a guaranteed salary is awarded to help combat that. To quote some of the PT's I work for, "We are overworked and under compensated." But it's not just about the money...

I have the utmost respect for PT's, OT's, and AT's. They truly love what they're doing cause they objectively get to see the progress their patients make with every single visit, when they do progress. Unfortunately, you're controlled by the type/number of treatments you can provide because of insurance. Limited in number of visits because of physician referrals. In addition, lack of direct access to PT's. Only 4 states allows patients to go directly to their PT's without the need of a physician referral. ~10-15 states allow some leniency; the rest 100% demand a physician referral before seeing a PT if you want go through insurance. High copays. The pushing patient volume mentality in outpatient private PT clinics. Fear of burnout within 2 years. Just more cons swallowing more pros for attending PT/AT school.

While I will always be an advocate for Physical Therapy first before more invasive treatments, I want that vast wealth of knowledge that physicians have to diagnose and suggest multiple paths of treatments to help people achieve their health and improving quality of life.


Questions:
I would like to obtain hours as an PA to explore other health professions and potentially rule it out. Their pros and cons to being a PA and I want to find out. What should I be shooting for in terms of number of observation/shadowing hours with MDs and DOs?

I will most likely have to scour the forums for the SMP thread, but if I were to take an SMP, should I focus on retaking a science/math course (i.e. gen chem 2 or Calc 1/2) because I got a C or should I focus on upper division science courses similar to ones I will find in med school?

Is SMP expensive? Don't know how I can afford it if scholarship/financial aid is limited for. I do live in California if that helps.

Thank you for your words of wisdom. I apologize for the long explanation. But I wouldn't be surprised if I turned this into a PS one day.

 

[candbgirl]

It’s fine to shadow a PA to see if you want to pursue that career. You need around 50 hours of physician shadowing. Some should be with a primary care doc. The rest can be whatever you want .

SMPs are high risk , high reward. They are also very expensive. If you manage to get a 3.7+ GPA you have a chance for med school. If you don’t, it’s just about game over. You take classes and compete with first year med students. It’s like a try out or a backdoor in to a school. Many schools have linkage with medical schools. In those cases you might be guaranteed an interview if you meet certain criteria. Some even offer direct acceptance. So if you decide to do do a SMP, choose wisely. But for sure pick one with some sort of linkage.

 

[blw14]

It’s fine to shadow a PA to see if you want to pursue that career. You need around 50 hours of physician shadowing. Some should be with a primary care doc. The rest can be whatever you want .

SMPs are high risk , high reward. They are also very expensive. If you manage to get a 3.7+ GPA you have a chance for med school. If you don’t, it’s just about game over. You take classes and compete with first year med students. It’s like a try out or a backdoor in to a school. Many schools have linkage with medical schools. In those cases you might be guaranteed an interview if you meet certain criteria. Some even offer direct acceptance. So if you decide to do do a SMP, choose wisely. But for sure pick one with some sort of linkage.

Do you have any suggestions as to which SMP's I should apply to? Preference as a CA resident?
Is there a thread already addressing this? If so, can you point me in that direction?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Rough calculations:
On the cost side of things: let's say a PT program lasts 3 years. As a graduate program, a lot of public schools do have discounts for in-state applicants, but usual out-of-state tuition I'm going to guess is around $50K per year. That's about as much as medical school tuition ($60K per year out of state). If you do an SMP, tuition per year is around $20K per year. You have to pay for all your licensure exams, "books", and other fees. But already we're talking about $150K for DPT on the route already taken versus $260K for med, not counting for costs of living. Average DPT salary is $80K but you probably will start out with making less as a novice, so you would have at least 2 years of effort paying back the $150K.

Am I missing something else?

There are subforums for non-traditional applicants as well as comparison forums for postbac/master's programs.

 

[candbgirl]

Do you have any suggestions as to which SMP's I should apply to? Preference as a CA resident?
Is there a thread already addressing this? If so, can you point me in that direction?

I really don’t know much about specific SMPs. Sorry. But I’m sure you can doa search of the forums and info will pop up. Cali is a difficult state to live in . They have thousands of residents applying to med school every year. Lots end up leaving the state. I’m not sure how being from CA impacts acceptance at SMPs.

 

[blw14]

0

Rough calculations:
On the cost side of things: let's say a PT program lasts 3 years. As a graduate program, a lot of public schools do have discounts for in-state applicants, but usual out-of-state tuition I'm going to guess is around $50K per year. That's about as much as medical school tuition ($60K per year out of state). If you do an SMP, tuition per year is around $20K per year. You have to pay for all your licensure exams, "books", and other fees. But already we're talking about $150K for DPT on the route already taken versus $260K for med, not counting for costs of living. Average DPT salary is $80K but you probably will start out with making less as a novice, so you would have at least 2 years of effort paying back the $150K.

Am I missing something else?

There are subforums for non-traditional applicants as well as comparison forums for postbac/master's programs.

Definitely depends on what DPT program you're attending. I can't say this for all private schools. Tuition alone for the program I got into is $134,000, so add cost of living, books, insurance, licensure exams, certs, that number quickly adds up to $200,000. I would consider my program to be one of the more expensive ones given that it's actually 3.5 year program consisting of both DPT and MSAT, but based on tuition alone, cost can range from $60,000-almost $181,00(USC). I think it's been a common theme among PT's, that I've worked with, that they feel undercompensated and I think it's due to a combination of a lot of documenting and a never ending pile of student debt.
But while student debt:income is something I take into consideration, it's not my sole argument. It's just another CON in my list of PROs and CONs.

 

[deleted859689]

Been using this a lot. @paradoxic_toxic has made a list of DO schools and SMP programs. This might help.

Osteopathic Medical School List (2019-2020)

 

[paradoxic_toxic]

1. Find a clinical position (paid or volunteer).
2. Score a 505 or higher on the MCAT.
3. DIY post bacc as a full-time student taking upper level sciences. Get your sGPA past 3.25 to open up more doors. This also gives an opportunity to get more letters of recommendation.
4. Shadow a doctor, preferably 1 primary care and 1 specialist. Average amount of hours = 50 per shadowing opportunity.
5. Get a physician letter. A DO letter isn't required by most DO schools, but having it will help by showing you went the extra mile.