3rd Year: Don't like any of my clinical rotations?

[alpinism]

My point wasn't that mediocre applicants can't perform exceptionally well on standardized exams. It's that they are less likely to end up as the big movers of the medical world.

Possibly.

However I've yet to see any study correlating MCAT/STEP scores with success in medicine.

Do higher test scores help you get into better medical schools and residencies? Absolutely.

However, I'd venture to guess that past ECs play a much larger role in predicting future success.

Someone with a 3.9/39 but cookie cutter ECs is probably less likely to perform groundbreaking research compared to someone with a 3.4/34 but multiple publications in top journals and other impressive ECs.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DermViser]

Possibly.

However I've yet to see any study correlating MCAT/STEP scores with success in medicine.

Do higher test scores help you get into better medical schools and residencies? Absolutely.

However, I'd venture to guess that past ECs play a much larger role in predicting future success.

Someone with a 3.9/39 but cookie cutter ECs is probably less likely to perform groundbreaking research compared to someone with a 3.4/34 but multiple publications in top journals and other impressive ECs.

That's bc success in medicine is a whole different subset of abilities vs. test-taking ability. At most the MCAT/Step 1 has been correlated with performance in the first 2 years. We have no metric for the last 2 years.

 

[alpinism]

rofl, that's me. I had lackluster ECs, a 3.3 and a 31 on my MCAT. I had no idea I was lackluster I thought I was a pretty good medical student. damn. Does a 239 on step 1 take me outside the lackluster range I earned with a 31 on my MCAT, or is 239 the new lackluster? Just trying to figure out where I am and if I am still lackluster, thanks

Enjoy Family Medicine bro with that 239.

Not srs.

 

[Mad Jack]

Possibly.

However I've yet to see any study correlating MCAT/STEP scores with success in medicine.

Do higher test scores help you get into better medical schools and residencies? Absolutely.

However, I'd venture to guess that past ECs play a much larger role in predicting future success.

Someone with a 3.9/39 but cookie cutter ECs is probably less likely to perform groundbreaking research compared to someone with a 3.4/34 but multiple publications in top journals and other impressive ECs.

The most groundbreaking physicians I had worked with had not only high GPAs, but had published research throughout undergrad and were almost exclusively from Ivy League schools. Their applications were likely damn close to perfect (I didn't ask about their MCAT scores or GPAs lol, but their research histories and undergraduate schools were listed publicly on our hospital's website).

 

[mimelim]

The most groundbreaking physicians I had worked with had not only high GPAs, but had published research throughout undergrad and were almost exclusively from Ivy League schools. Their applications were likely damn close to perfect (I didn't ask about their MCAT scores or GPAs lol, but their research histories and undergraduate schools were listed publicly on our hospital's website).

In my experience, those guys don't know what their MCAT/GPAs were. It literally means nothing at that point. Hell, one of the big shot PIs at HMS thought the MCAT was pass/fail.

 

[alpinism]

The most groundbreaking physicians I had worked with had not only high GPAs, but had published research throughout undergrad and were almost exclusively from Ivy League schools. Their applications were likely damn close to perfect (I didn't ask about their MCAT scores or GPAs lol, but their research histories and undergraduate schools were listed publicly on our hospital's website).

True, but almost everyone at T10 medical schools (including where you worked) has high GPAs and comes from Ivys.

Few of them, however, go on to have groundbreaking careers.

I've been lucky enough to work with and privately talk to a number of dept chairs and even Rhodes scholars/McArthur grant recipients who freely admit to getting a mid 30s MCAT and comment about how "I probably wouldn't have got into this med school today if I were applying after reading all your classmates' applications." The one thing they all have in common is that they all had amazing ECs coming into med school and are also extremely innovative, creative, passionate, and hard working.

They definitely weren't lackluster applicants (as you've already said) but they also weren't perfect 4.0/40 applicants.

 

[DermViser]

True, but almost everyone at T10 medical schools (including where you worked) has high GPAs and comes from Ivys.

Few of them, however, go on to have groundbreaking careers.

I've been lucky enough to work with and privately talk to a number of dept chairs and even Rhodes scholars/McArthur grant recipients who freely admit to getting a mid 30s MCAT and comment about how "I probably wouldn't have got into this med school today if I were applying after reading all your classmates' applications." The one thing they all have in common is that they all had amazing ECs coming into med school and are also extremely innovative, creative, passionate, and hard working.

They definitely weren't lackluster applicants (as you've already said) but they also weren't perfect 4.0/40 applicants.

Top 10 schools want people who they view as potential leaders. Keyword being potential.

 

[qwerty89]

Another Radiologist is born...

 

[masaraksh]

In my experience, those guys don't know what their MCAT/GPAs were. It literally means nothing at that point. Hell, one of the big shot PIs at HMS thought the MCAT was pass/fail.

And by that he meant that he effortlessly got a 45T and thought that that was what you needed to pass.

 

[DermViser]

Another Radiologist is born...

or Pathologist. OP's situation is much more common than you think.

 

[W19]

Should I be worried since I only got just an above average MCAT score? That damn VR! It does not take a genius to be a psych or FM physician...

 

[DermViser]

Should I be worried since I only got an above average MCAT score? That damn VR! It does not take a genius to be a psych or FM physician...

Worried about what? You're so silly sometimes. 😉 I still can't believe you're a non-trad.

 

[W19]

Worried about what? You're so silly sometimes. 😉 I still can't believe you're a non-trad.

Cheer up dude! Just taking a 15 min break from Histo...

 

[Frazier]

Should I be worried since I only got just an above average MCAT score? That damn VR! It does not take a genius to be a psych or FM physician...

What physician specialty requires you to be a genius? ...other than nephrology, that is 😉

 

[DermViser]

Cheer up dude! Just taking a 15 min break from Histo...

LOL. Thought you were having another anxiety episode by going back in your past and rethinking things. My bad.

 

[DermViser]

What physician specialty requires you to be a genius? ...other than nephrology, that is 😉

 

[W19]

LOL. Thought you were having another anxiety episode by going back in your past and rethinking things. My bad.

Life is great right now... Having a good time in med school. It's good to know that I don't have to rank in the 1st or 2nd quartile to become a FM or psych doc. Ironically, I did a lot better in my last anatomy practical exam because the pressure was off a little bit. No more test anxiety!

 

[DermViser]

Life is great right now... Having a good time in med school. It's good to know that I don't have to rank in the 1st or 2nd quartile to become a FM or psych doc. Ironically, I did a lot better in my last anatomy practical exam because the pressure was off a little bit. No more test anxiety!

LOL! Don't worry about effects on your rank on every little grade. Do your best in terms of mastering the information, polishing your study skills, not procrastinating, etc. and your rank will fall into place. Even if you're going into Psychiatry or Family Med, you'll have a lot more options in terms of quality of programs, if at the end after all is said and done and the school formula, you end up being in 1st or 2nd quartile - and having more options is always better than having less options.

Glad your anxiety has calmed down a bit (for now).

 

[Aloft085]

.

 

[GadRads]

Depends on the state school. Mine heavily recruits for potential academics and researchers- you basically don't get considered without decent published work and a mid-30s MCAT.

The vast majority of med schools grads, even from the top 5, don't go on to become world class researchers and educators. Moreover, the vast majority of these applicants don't publish anything; and using the MCAT as a yardstick for the ability to become a world-class researcher and educator is very low-yield. Moving the field forward derives from creativity and passion, which tests don't measure. Less and less MD/PhD graduates are choosing research careers.

 

[Mad Jack]

The vast majority of med schools grads, even from the top 5, don't go on to become world class researchers and educators. Moreover, the vast majority of these applicants don't publish anything; and using the MCAT as a yardstick for the ability to become a world-class researcher and educator is very low-yield. Moving the field forward derives from creativity and passion, which tests don't measure. Less and less MD/PhD graduates are choosing research careers.

I wasn't advocating for just high MCAT and GPA scores. I'm saying they're going to pick the candidates that have it all- research, high GPA, high MCAT, high-tier undergrad- over the average but passionate guy any day, because they should, regardless of if Mr. Perfect Applicant is lukewarm about medicine, because he's probably got a much higher chance of doing great things due to his competitive drive and perfectionism than Mr. Average Altruist will with his good intentions.

The academic physicians I worked with were required to publish research. It wasn't an option to not do so- they would lose their post if they didn't produce regularly, and all of them had active projects. So I don't get where this whole "only MD/PhDs do research" idea is coming from. They did a lot of work on everything from ECMO survival in pandemic flu to novel ventilation strategies in post-surgical patients to creating an optimized system for weaning ventilated pediatric patients. And this is just the stuff I can think of off of the top of my head. One of those MDs didn't particularly like the field- he was in it for the power trip and prestige, and didn't seem to give a damn about the patients so long as they lived- but his research in the surgical field was top-notch. I'd take a guy like him getting a seat in med school over some average passionate applicant that wants to do rural FP practice any day, because that guy's research saved literally hundreds of lives at my hospital over the years I worked there.

 

[GadRads]

The most groundbreaking physicians I had worked with had not only high GPAs, but had published research throughout undergrad and were almost exclusively from Ivy League schools. Their applications were likely damn close to perfect (I didn't ask about their MCAT scores or GPAs lol, but their research histories and undergraduate schools were listed publicly on our hospital's website).

Honestly, I think your view is probably due to a limited range of experience. What you will find over time is that there are good people almost everywhere. Go to conferences, look at the important work in different fields, comb through journal pages [not just Science, Cell, Nature or NEJM; other midrange society journals publish great stuff too], and you will see that excellent work isn't purely the reserve of Ivy League and similar schools.

 

[Mad Jack]

Honestly, I think your view is probably due to a limited range of experience. What you will find over time is that there are good people almost everywhere. Go to conferences, look at the important work in different fields, comb through journal pages [not just Science, Cell, Nature or NEJM; other midrange society journals publish great stuff too], and you will see that excellent work isn't purely the reserve of Ivy League and similar schools.

There's plenty of mid-tier academic facilities producing good research, but look into the pedigrees of the people publishing the papers, not the institutions for which they work.

I read a lot of Chest, Critical Care, American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine, Anesthesiology, NEJM, and JAMA, personally. A disproportionally large number of the better research articles were coming from top research funded hospitals, if memory serves me.

 

[Aloft085]

I wasn't advocating for just high MCAT and GPA scores. I'm saying they're going to pick the candidates that have it all- research, high GPA, high MCAT, high-tier undergrad- over the average but passionate guy any day, because they should, regardless of if Mr. Perfect Applicant is lukewarm about medicine, because he's probably got a much higher chance of doing great things due to his competitive drive and perfectionism than Mr. Average Altruist will with his good intentions.

The academic physicians I worked with were required to publish research. It wasn't an option to not do so- they would lose their post if they didn't produce regularly, and all of them had active projects. So I don't get where this whole "only MD/PhDs do research" idea is coming from. They did a lot of work on everything from ECMO survival in pandemic flu to novel ventilation strategies in post-surgical patients to creating an optimized system for weaning ventilated pediatric patients. And this is just the stuff I can think of off of the top of my head. One of those MDs didn't particularly like the field- he was in it for the power trip and prestige, and didn't seem to give a damn about the patients so long as they lived- but his research in the surgical field was top-notch. I'd take a guy like him getting a seat in med school over some average passionate applicant that wants to do rural FP practice any day, because that guy's research saved literally hundreds of lives at my hospital over the years I worked there.

I don't think you're necessarily wrong, but you're not looking at the full picture. There are 900,000 physicians in America. The nature of the job means that the vast majority of physicians will always have to be out there actually treating patients. You cannot simply recruit everyone on the basis of whether or not they could one day become a superstar researcher, you also need guys motivated enough to put in an entire career. Many of those really smart guys are looking to retire as early as possible, and that doesn't help anyone.

So yes, I do agree with your thinking to a limited extent. However, there is a vast need for us more 'mediocre' physicians as well. I mean, think about it, I score above the 99th percentile of Americans on all standardized tests; yet I'm nowhere near as smart as some of those guys who are out there pushing the cutting edge. Roughly one in every 300 Americans will have to become a doctor; there just aren't enough 'superstars' out there to fill that requirement. I'd bet that most really 'superstar' type candidates would be really sh*tty in a primary care type roles anyway.

 

[lisi326]

I wasn't advocating for just high MCAT and GPA scores. I'm saying they're going to pick the candidates that have it all- research, high GPA, high MCAT, high-tier undergrad- over the average but passionate guy any day, because they should, regardless of if Mr. Perfect Applicant is lukewarm about medicine, because he's probably got a much higher chance of doing great things due to his competitive drive and perfectionism than Mr. Average Altruist will with his good intentions.

The academic physicians I worked with were required to publish research. It wasn't an option to not do so- they would lose their post if they didn't produce regularly, and all of them had active projects. So I don't get where this whole "only MD/PhDs do research" idea is coming from. They did a lot of work on everything from ECMO survival in pandemic flu to novel ventilation strategies in post-surgical patients to creating an optimized system for weaning ventilated pediatric patients. And this is just the stuff I can think of off of the top of my head. One of those MDs didn't particularly like the field- he was in it for the power trip and prestige, and didn't seem to give a damn about the patients so long as they lived- but his research in the surgical field was top-notch. I'd take a guy like him getting a seat in med school over some average passionate applicant that wants to do rural FP practice any day, because that guy's research saved literally hundreds of lives at my hospital over the years I worked there.

Tell that to the people who live in rural areas and can't get medical care because they either have no PCPs or the PCPs they do have are full and overwhelmed, and they don't have the car/money/resources to go to the nearest open doc that's >1hr away.

I know that all us people at high-tier med schools think that the sub-sub-specialists who are putting out their fancy research and seeing their list of zebra patients are doing so much more for humanity than the PCPs who work in rural places and/or with disadvantaged folks... but let's not kid ourselves. You need both research-intensive sub-specialists and rural PCPs to make our healthcare system work. You need people who are willing to do primary care, and do it in places/with populations that we don't want to have anything to do with. Don't sit there and try to tell me that a kid who's going to be a future rockstar R-sided median nerve repair guy is more important than the kid who's going to go do primary care in the delta of Mississippi and try to help in one the most unhealthy and medically deserted areas of the country.

/rant

 

[DermViser]

Huh?

It's ok. His other 2 posts don't make any sense either.

Turns out I had been in no way really incurred. Simply arrested for a couple hours below the particular presumption associated with stated charge. Apparently there exists a variation.
Thanks type12 with regard to saying what I used to be not really capable of articulate directly into terms. I have virtually ignored Mr. Midwife due to the fact We did not ask for any lecture, however about the next step. I failed to ask for hindsight, yet rather acquiring back on my own a couple of ft and moving about.

You need to explain in order to yourself the reason why the actual some other choices are wrong (for example why the anti-markov vs markov). Presently there had been the couple occasions around the check itself that I failed to know the particular exact answer, yet My partner and i might eliminate every one of the WRONG options because My partner and i knew the reason why these people have been wrong.

 

[Lysinee]

Short and simple advice for the OP: Do what you love and Don't do what you hate.

If you're out of options, go through the list again.

 

[LocumOnly]

After grueling through 2nd year and being so happy to be done with that hell, I was excited and apprehensive about starting 3rd year. Now that it's more than half way through and having done Internal Medicine, Family Medicine, OB/GYN, Pediatrics and Surgery I've realized I like nothing. Nothing excites me enough that I feel like I can spend the rest of my life doing it.

I've realized the most important thing to me is that I have a good lifestyle and make a good income. Whether that sounds greedy or superficial I don't care because I've also realized a well balanced life is more important than spending your entire life dedicated to medicine. That being said I still want to specialize in something that interests me. Dermatology does not interest me, and definitely not Pathology.

I did an elective in Radiology seeing if I would enjoy it and I felt bored sitting behind the resident reading the CTs and staring at the same shades of grey in a dark room. Yes it's probably more intellectually stimulating for the resident, and there are many procedures that they do but despite what radiologists claim there a lot less communication between fellow residents and patients than in other specialities.

I can go on and on, but I guess my question is for those out there that could not decide on a speciality and didn't like anything in particular, how did you go about making the decision ??

You may be the type of person who dislikes any kind of job. If you leave medicine, there is no guarantee of finding something better. That being said, you should aim to do the easiest residency possible. Work a few years, live simply, invest wisely, and retire at the ripe old age of 34.

I hear PM&R and Occupational Medicine are nice. Find a way to live a life you love... everything else is secondary. You just need to not hate your job to love your life.

 

[C6H12O6&spice]

The vast majority of med schools grads, even from the top 5, don't go on to become world class researchers and educators. Moreover, the vast majority of these applicants don't publish anything; and using the MCAT as a yardstick for the ability to become a world-class researcher and educator is very low-yield. Moving the field forward derives from creativity and passion, which tests don't measure. Less and less MD/PhD graduates are choosing research careers.

 

[La_Vie_En_Rose]

After grueling through 2nd year and being so happy to be done with that hell, I was excited and apprehensive about starting 3rd year. Now that it's more than half way through and having done Internal Medicine, Family Medicine, OB/GYN, Pediatrics and Surgery I've realized I like nothing. Nothing excites me enough that I feel like I can spend the rest of my life doing it.

I've realized the most important thing to me is that I have a good lifestyle and make a good income. Whether that sounds greedy or superficial I don't care because I've also realized a well balanced life is more important than spending your entire life dedicated to medicine. That being said I still want to specialize in something that interests me. Dermatology does not interest me, and definitely not Pathology.

I did an elective in Radiology seeing if I would enjoy it and I felt bored sitting behind the resident reading the CTs and staring at the same shades of grey in a dark room. Yes it's probably more intellectually stimulating for the resident, and there are many procedures that they do but despite what radiologists claim there a lot less communication between fellow residents and patients than in other specialities.

I can go on and on, but I guess my question is for those out there that could not decide on a speciality and didn't like anything in particular, how did you go about making the decision ??

If you don't know which area of medicine you like the most, then maybe you can approach it by the population you will be working with. If you enjoy the people you work with at a certain field, then maybe that is the area you should be in.

 

[channa115]

Wow, busy for a couple days and come back finding your thread has blown up and also been hijacked to discuss something or other about top docs, Ivy League schools and pre med.

I see that the original intent of my statements did not come across very well on the Internet and have taken on a life of their own. As the OP I would like to clarify some points in regards to my original post. First and foremost I would like to pose the notion that even with sufficient clinical exposure prior to beginning medical school how many pre meds actually TRULY understood what a career in medicine entailed. I understood medicine would not be easy, requiring many years of hard work and dealing with sick and and dying people. But that was also at a time when I quite often performed well above my peers not realizing how many much more intelligent, hardworking and successful people than myself were out there, so maybe I was a little delusioned. The point is, it's very hard to understand the circumstances of your situation until you are living through it. Think back to when you were in middle school and how you thought those kids in high school and college were so much bigger and smarter. Or even as a child how you trusted what adults told you until you grew up and became the wiser. It is the same with making a career choice. Many people start down one path and find a couple years down the line it wasn't for them. But medicine is really a lifelong commitment and to say a 20 year old (or even a 30 year old) even equipped with good information can know for sure where their priorities or interests lie 5, 10, 20 years down the line is a bit absurd.

That being said, I also came across as being some kind of greedy med student that really only cared about money and lifestyle. In which case someone should have questioned me why not Dermatology. I have good board scores. It might be a stretch but I could work hard and try to get a publication or abstract put together. I guess I misspoke when I said nothing interests me. It's more that nothing wowed me. In no rotation did I walk away and say this is great I want to do this everyday for the rest of my life. I do want to be a good doctor, but like any rational young adult in this day and age I also want a well balanced life that can afford me time to enjoy hobbies outside of my career and if and when the time comes to have a family (AND be able to raise them) as well.

I was a little bit insulted by some of the comments that were made that somehow I took away the spot of some worthier person because of my poor motivations. People lets be real here, why do you think some of the most competitive residencies are also considered lifestyle residencies? Why is medicine as a career held up on a pedestal by parents and undergraduate students alike if for the only reason that it was a calling to service others? If that were true and most people who went into medicine were called to serve others purely and humbly then everyone would have gone to nursing school as they truly carry the burden of the serving their patients minute to minute and day to day.

Maybe I did type my original post in frustration and anxiety as one of the posters suggested but I don't think my points were invalid. Many residents, attendings and medical students that I have talked to say that if they had to do it all over again they would have avoided medicine. In retrospect, I believe every career has its difficulties. But medicine is singular in the length, grueling and underpaid training of its professionals. It's also particularly difficult to sit at the dinner table with friends who have gone into pharmacy school or dental school who are finishing their education, getting job offers and complaining about applying for a one year internship because of the "grueling hours".

Now enough with the rambling and back to the original intent of my post. With a bit more introspection I realize that I do really enjoy the thinking aspect of medicine. Being able to tie physiology and the pathological mechanism of disease to a particular diagnosis that makes sense. I also have enjoyed the younger and female patient populations on my ob GYN rotation. I like to pace my own work (radiologist have the ability to do that ) but I did like talking and discussing with teammates on Internal Medicine. I prefer to the point interactions with patients and always found lengthy questioning awkward. However I believe that had much more to do with the fact that most of the time I wanted to tell the patient what we will be doing for them but ending the conversation with "oh I'll talk with resident" because I didn't have an answer. Even though I don't see myself doing surgery, doesn't mean I didn't like quick procedures with definite or quick results. Most of all I want to have set hours with flexibility and the opportunity to have a life out of medicine.

I realize that what I have posted above is really bits and pieces of what I liked from each rotation and I have not been able to decide on one that has a big enough umbrella to cover most. Hopefully I have enlightened my fellow SDNers and I don't come across as the pitiful medical student who made the wrong decision. If any of you can comment on some more ideal speciality choices based on the above I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[vm26]

[ I like to pace my own work (radiologist have the ability to do that ) . [/COLOR].[/QUOTE]


Def not true these days, radiology is the epitome of RVU based work (eg. digital sweatshop/eat what you kill)...medicine is a job, chose something that is palatable. If you enjoy patient contact consider psych (eg. primary care minus DM, HTN, CAD etc), if you want to keep to yourself, consider path (no nights, holidays, or weekends), overall a pretty good gig...Only consider rads if you are ok doing 6-7 years of training and would enjoy covering overnights as an associate in a private practice out in the boonies

 

[kexy]

OP, I am in the same boat. I am late in MS3 and haven't been "wowed" by anything. That doesn't mean I regret being in med school. I don't. I have plenty of perspective about the other options out there. But I want a balanced life. And I don't know whether to hold out for something I definitely like/love or just choose something that I probably won't hate that will definitely afford me the ability to like my life outside of medicine. And I have to start planning 4th year in January so I am kind of running out of time to find something I love.

I don't have any advice, I am just letting you know you aren't alone and you don't need to defend your post to all of us.

 

[Psai]

OP, I am in the same boat. I am late in MS3 and haven't been "wowed" by anything. That doesn't mean I regret being in med school. I don't. I have plenty of perspective about the other options out there. But I want a balanced life. And I don't know whether to hold out for something I definitely like/love or just choose something that I probably won't hate that will definitely afford me the ability to like my life outside of medicine. And I have to start planning 4th year in January so I am kind of running out of time to find something I love.

I don't have any advice, I am just letting you know you aren't alone and you don't need to defend your post to all of us.

None of the good fields are on display during third year. Allergy, pm&r, derm, ophtho, etc. are not what med students really get to see

 

[evilbooyaa]

OP, sounds like you should check out the following fields - Psych, Neuro, PM&R, Rad Onc, IR (the hours can be long in this one however), FM (as you can likely find a 9-5 job in the boonies that pays pretty well as a FM doc). If you can't decide on any of those, then I'd recommend IM as it gives you the biggest sub-specialty capabilities (stuff like Nephrology, Rheum, and Allergy, or even OP-based GI) for balancing decent salary with a palatable lifestyle.

 

[channa115]

OP, I am in the same boat. I am late in MS3 and haven't been "wowed" by anything. That doesn't mean I regret being in med school. I don't. I have plenty of perspective about the other options out there. But I want a balanced life. And I don't know whether to hold out for something I definitely like/love or just choose something that I probably won't hate that will definitely afford me the ability to like my life outside of medicine. And I have to start planning 4th year in January so I am kind of running out of time to find something I love.

I don't have any advice, I am just letting you know you aren't alone and you don't need to defend your post to all of us.

kexy, I really appreciate that someone else understands. Best of luck in trying to figure out the right match as well.