4.0/40 rejected everywhere :o( Not sure what to do?

[caffeinemia]

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I have a very unique name, I doubt there is someone with my name.
I don't have a facebook page.
No worrisome ECs ... tennis, art, hiking, etc...

Those aren't pre-med ecs....

 

[flowerpower123]

Concur, even an avg of 345 is really good. BUT, timing appears to be the issue. if most of the schools saw only the 28, then perhaps that's what led to the multiple pre-interview rejections.

The only thing is, the medical school secondary status page's all showed that they had received my score.

 

[Salt Salt]

No worrisome ECs ... tennis, art, hiking, etc...

It was probably the tennis.

 

[Goro]

Curiouser and curiouser.

The only thing is, the medical school secondary status page's all showed that they had received my score.

 

[flowerpower123]

Those aren't pre-med ecs....

These are in addition to my pre-med ecs

 

[zero0]

I almost wanna say "troll"... Ok, so MCAT retake; that's one strike against you at top tier institutions. Still though...

I'm guessing you're not a minority? It could just be that these schools already filled their quota for overachieving white/asian people(not hard to do, there's tons). Diversity is a big factor that gets underemphasized in this whole process. If you had the usual old cookie-cutter ECs, it would be hard to stand out at these places. Just reapply and cross your fingers, I guess... You sure you're not a convicted felon?

 

[flowerpower123]

I'm guessing you're not a minority?

Nope, non-URM and not disadvantaged

 

[flowerpower123]

Don't jump on me...because I wouldn't think that it's a big deal nearly a decade later. But I did drop out of high school, but I mean that was nearly 10 years ago and I graduated summa cum laude from college and I didn't even bring it up other than clicking GED on the AMCAS... I'm just trying to figure out what's wrong, maybe that's an issue

 

[breakintheroof]

Don't jump on me...because I wouldn't think that it's a big deal nearly a decade later. But I did drop out of high school, but I mean that was nearly 10 years ago and I graduated summa cum laude from college and I didn't even bring it up other than clicking GED on the AMCAS... I'm just trying to figure out what's wrong, maybe that's an issue

Well, that is good to know, but we can't really jump on you because nobody asked if you graduated from high school. 😉

I don't think a high school credential in itself matters. I'm sure this is an important part of your story, though, and how you talk about your past could potentially affect your application. We have some people around who dropped out and became successful applicants, like @superdoc2.0 and @Mad Jack, I believe.

 

[gyngyn]

No, that's definitely not true. CA schools are different from other state schools in that all of them are great and very competitive, but there's still in-state preference for sure. Davis's last incoming class was 99:3 IS:OOS, Irvine was 94:10, UCLA was 154:21, San Diego was 105:20, and UCSF was 135:29 despite having exactly the same number of IS and OOS applications. Maybe that's less in-state bias than in other states, but it's definitely still there.

If you check the websites or MSAR you will see it explicitly stated that there is no IS preference for at least 2 of the UC's (the last time I checked). I can tell you that the appearance of preference at any of them (except UCR and UCD) is more likely associated with the abundance of overqualifed CA candidates who would rather stay IS. Also, the number of OOS candidates who apply to CA schools as a Hail Mary appears to rival the Ivies (to my eye, at least!).

 

[zero0]

Don't jump on me...because I wouldn't think that it's a big deal nearly a decade later. But I did drop out of high school, but I mean that was nearly 10 years ago and I graduated summa cum laude from college and I didn't even bring it up other than clicking GED on the AMCAS... I'm just trying to figure out what's wrong, maybe that's an issue

I really doubt that's it. A GED isn't a red flag.

 

[caffeinemia]

If you check the websites or MSAR you will see it explicitly stated that there is no IS preference for at least 2 of the UC's (the last time I checked). I can tell you that any appearance of preference at any of them (except UCR and UCD) is more likely associated with the abundace of overqualifed CA candidates who would rather stay IS. Also, the number of OOS candidates who apply to CA schools as a Hail Mary appears to rival the Ivies (to my eye, at least!).

How did this become a discussion about the UCs! Grr California! 😛 I must eat, shoots and leaves.

 

[Mad Jack]

Whether or not you graduated from high school or got a GED has literally zero effect on medical school admission. It can be a positive if you spin it that way, but is certainly not a negative.

 

[NYCdude]

Damn yo! You must have threatened people at your interviews to get rejected with stats like that. I hope you get into an elite school next go around, OP.

 

[flowerpower123]

Whether or not you graduated from high school or got a GED has literally zero effect on medical school admission. It can be a positive if you spin it that way, but is certainly not a negative.

It'd be difficult to put a positive spin on it. The reason why I left would probably be a red flag, which is why I try not to address it. Luckily, none of my interviewers brought it up.

 

[PlaqueBuster]

wut? I think you're going too far here.

🤣

I have heard of someone who submitted all parts of application but did not send it the secondary fee and was getting no response from that school until they realized they didn't pay in December. I just threw out whatever else could be hindering interviews from the schools that rejected post secondary.

 

[Chansey]

I think the solution is to just to apply to a TON more schools next time. Out of the 15 schools you applied to, I applied to 11 of them and I got the exact same results as you. I had to apply to 25 schools to get 3 acceptances.

I think you just happened to *not apply* to schools that would have loved to accept you. If you aim too low, schools won't take your application seriously. If you aim to high, it gets extremely competitive. The "sweet spot" for me was US News Rank 7-13, which you just happened to skip over with your school list. I'm fairly certain that a lot of those schools would have accepted you.

 

[Over9000]

BTW, I agree with mimelim. There is obviously something that is a major red flag if 12/15 schools auto-reject you. Call every single school and try to get some info.

To add a couple to his list on the first page:
-Does a google search for your name bring up 16 pages of arrest records for someone who happens to have the same name?
-Is your facebook page full of hate/inappropriate jokes/unprofessional nonsense?
-Did you perhaps list something inappropriate or worrisome in your ECs? Like smoking pot, recreational sword swallowing, stealing candy from babies, or playing too many video games?

Definitely check for this.

A good friend of mine is repeatedly questioned at every border crossing and airport check-in counter because there is a convicted felon with the exact same name and birthday as him.

 

[Goro]

Hmmm..so what did you do between dropping out and going back to college?

Did you go to college for a decade? take only 1-2 courses/semester?

Be honest please: no arrests/convictions/IAs?

Any history of mental illness that was mentioned in essays??

And what were your non-clinical ECs like? I'm not talking about research or hobbies, I'm talking about demonstrations of your altruism, service to others and humanism.

Don't jump on me...because I wouldn't think that it's a big deal nearly a decade later. But I did drop out of high school, but I mean that was nearly 10 years ago and I graduated summa cum laude from college and I didn't even bring it up other than clicking GED on the AMCAS... I'm just trying to figure out what's wrong, maybe that's an issue

 

[Chansey]

OP doesn't need to add 5 more top 20 schools. They need some actual range in their school list.

I'm just speaking from my own experience. I have very similar stats as OP (My stats are slightly worse, actually.) I applied to the same schools she did. I was rejected from the same schools she was.

The schools I gave her include the three schools that I was accepted at. Since we are similar applicants, I suspect she would have had success at those schools also. She just happened to not apply to them.

I also applied to mid tier schools (USC, Loyola, Maryland, etc) and received only pre-interview rejections or complete silence from them. I think applying far below your LizzyM score is a waste of money.

 

[TheRhymenocerous]

If you check the websites or MSAR you will see it explicitly stated that there is no IS preference for at least 2 of the UC's (the last time I checked). I can tell you that the appearance of preference at any of them (except UCR and UCD) is more likely associated with the abundance of overqualifed CA candidates who would rather stay IS. Also, the number of OOS candidates who apply to CA schools as a Hail Mary appears to rival the Ivies (to my eye, at least!).

Huh. I haven't found anything like that in the MSAR, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Doesn't everyone always tell out-of-staters not to bother with California schools? At UCSF, it looks like they interviewed ~4% of out-of-state applicants and ~10% of in-state applicants. Isn't that evidence of in-state bias? I'd think that the out-of-state applicant pool would probably be stronger, since most Californians seem to just apply to all of them no matter what, whereas I'd imagine only more qualified out-of-staters would bother trying. But maybe I'm overestimating the wisdom of people's school selections.

 

[flowerpower123]

Did you go to college for a decade? take only 1-2 courses/semester?

2-3 years post college with research and volunteering

Be honest please: no arrests/convictions/IAs?

Definitely not... just a couple parking tickets

Any history of mental illness that was mentioned in essays??

The essay I wrote in my previous application several years ago (which I never completed secondaries for) discussed a struggle with anorexia in high school, but that was soo long ago and hasn't been an issue for nearly a decade.

And what were your non-clinical ECs like? I'm not talking about research or hobbies, I'm talking about demonstrations of your altruism, service to others and humanism

This may be an issue, while the hospital I volunteer at has a very large homelss population, I haven't done much outside of the medical realm

 

[toastytoastie]

Do y'all think it would be a bad idea to post my PS? I just want to be as transparent as possible. Without being foolish.

I would only send it to a couple people--PM some and see if they'd be willing to look it over! If you post it online, people will mosey in and "borrow" bits and pieces.

 

[toastytoastie]

This may be an issue, while the hospital I volunteer at has a very large homelss population, I haven't done much outside of the medical realm

What about hobbies that fly under the radar, like cooking, jogging, reading, etc? How do you respond when asked what you do for fun? I'm just trying to parse out what could have gone awry at the interview stage.

 

[miszfifi820]

ive been trying to follow this, correct my if im wrong, but has OP mentioned any clinic experience? I saw @Goro ask multiple times but I didnt see a response to that. I know she has volunteered at hospitals, but that's not necessarily clinical experience depending on what she did as a volunteer.

 

[miszfifi820]

What about hobbies that fly under the radar, like cooking, jogging, reading, etc? How do you respond when asked what you do for fun? I'm just trying to parse out what could have gone awry at the interview stage.

I think she mentioned tennis and hiking

 

[gyngyn]

Huh. I haven't found anything like that in the MSAR, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Doesn't everyone always tell out-of-staters not to bother with California schools? At UCSF, it looks like they interviewed ~4% of out-of-state applicants and ~10% of in-state applicants. Isn't that evidence of in-state bias? I'd think that the out-of-state applicant pool would probably be stronger, since most Californians seem to just apply to all of them no matter what, whereas I'd imagine only more qualified out-of-staters would bother trying. But maybe I'm overestimating the wisdom of people's school selections.

I just checked the UCI website and found this in FAQ's:
Does the School of Medicine give preference to California residents?
No. The Admissions Committee uses the same criteria to evaluate applicants whether they are in-state or out-of-state residents. Preference is given to applicants who are US citizens, Permanent Residents with a Green Card, or approved under DACA with an Employment Authorization Document (EAD).

Here's UCLA (in FAQ's):
Residence: No preference is given to state of residence. However many applicants come from California. Acceptees from California are more likely to matriculate at UCLA. Out of 175 freshman, 85 percent were from California.

And you can never over-estimate the compulsion to apply to "reaches," especially reaches in warm climates.

 

[solitarius]

I'm just speaking from my own experience. I have very similar stats as OP (My stats are slightly worse, actually.) I applied to the same schools she did. I was rejected from the same schools she was.

Problem is you're emphasizing stats when she has a completely different background/ profile from you. I'm inclined to think Harvard/Yale was drawn to her background, but their pool is too competitive. Duke's secondary played well to her life story.

Some schools like the traditional applicants & wouldn't favor her app. So picking 7-to-whatever based on stats is a poor play especially for a third-timer.

I personally think she needs to find the type of school that looks for risks like Harvard/Yale, but are less competitive obviously. How much less? No one knows, hence the wisdom in broadening the range to aid in that true discovery.

 

[hoihaie]

Huh. I haven't found anything like that in the MSAR, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places. Doesn't everyone always tell out-of-staters not to bother with California schools? At UCSF, it looks like they interviewed ~4% of out-of-state applicants and ~10% of in-state applicants. Isn't that evidence of in-state bias? I'd think that the out-of-state applicant pool would probably be stronger, since most Californians seem to just apply to all of them no matter what, whereas I'd imagine only more qualified out-of-staters would bother trying. But maybe I'm overestimating the wisdom of people's school selections.

I just checked the UCI website and found this in FAQ's:
Does the School of Medicine give preference to California residents?
No. The Admissions Committee uses the same criteria to evaluate applicants whether they are in-state or out-of-state residents. Preference is given to applicants who are US citizens, Permanent Residents with a Green Card, or approved under DACA with an Employment Authorization Document (EAD).

And you can never over-estimate the compulsion to apply to "reaches," especially reaches in warm climates.

The same thing is said by UCLA, UCSF, and UCSD.

 

[mehc012]

ive been trying to follow this, correct my if im wrong, but has OP mentioned any clinic experience? I saw @Goro ask multiple times but I didnt see a response to that. I know she has volunteered at hospitals, but that's not necessarily clinical experience depending on what she did as a volunteer.

These are in addition to my pre-med ecs
I also have 500+ hours volunteering at one hospital
300+ hours volunteering at another hospital and ~2 years research

 

[Inventor of Post-Its]

^I believe the two posts you quoted illustrate miszfifi820's point: volunteering at a hospital doesn't always mean clinical experience.
If OP spent 800 hours sitting behind an information desk or refilling the coffee in the break room, the fact that it happened to be in a hospital doesn't mean much. That kind of volunteering + non-clinical research = zero hours of patient contact.

 

[mehc012]

^I believe the two posts you quoted illustrate miszfifi820's point: volunteering at a hospital doesn't always mean clinical experience.
If OP spent 800 hours sitting behind an information desk or refilling the coffee in the break room, the fact that it happened to be in a hospital doesn't mean much. That kind of volunteering + non-clinical research = zero hours of patient contact.

That was OP's answer to the question, which the poster I quoted must have missed, since they said no response was given. Whether or not more details are needed is a separate issue. I was just pulling the given answer back out since I remembered seeing it.

Now, to actually address your point...I think it's just as big of an assumption on your part that it was 800hrs of filing and coffee as it would be to presume it was 800hrs of direct 1-on-1 patient contact. Yes, there are some positions that are what you describe, but there are also others where you directly help out on the floors and are 1-on-1 or better with patients.
Personally, I'd give them benefit of the doubt, as I'm not sure why they would specify 'at a hospital' unless there was some level of clinical exposure (or why you would bother getting 2 hospital volunteer slots without aiming for exposure), but given the context of the thread I can see why you'd err on the other side of that.

 

[Goro]

OK, one more piece to the puzzle. Most successful applicants have at least 100 hrs of non-clinical ECs.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

One can find plenty of service opportunities starting with your local houses of worship.

I like to point out that stats get you to the door, but ECs get you through the door.

This may be an issue, while the hospital I volunteer at has a very large homelss population, I haven't done much outside of the medical realm[/QUOTE]

 

[Inventor of Post-Its]

That was OP's answer to the question, which the poster I quoted must have missed, since they said no response was given. Whether or not more details are needed is a separate issue. I was just pulling the given answer back out since I remembered seeing it.

No, they're completely different questions. Miszfifi820 specifically said "I know she has volunteered at hospitals," so she obviously saw the post you pulled out. But you can have hospital volunteering experience without having true clinical experience.

 

[mehc012]

OK, one more piece to the puzzle. Most successful applicants have at least 100 hrs of non-clinical ECs.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

One can find plenty of service opportunities starting with your local houses of worship.

I like to point out that stats get you to the door, but ECs get you through the door.

This may be an issue, while the hospital I volunteer at has a very large homelss population, I haven't done much outside of the medical realm

And yet it seems it must always be through a specific organization (and the majority of those being religiously affiliated), rather than helping out where you can, when you can *sigh*.

 

[mehc012]

No, they're completely different questions. Miszfifi820 specifically said "I know she has volunteered at hospitals," so she obviously saw the post you pulled out. But you can have hospital volunteering experience without having true clinical experience.

You're right, I did not read thoroughly...I conflated that post with the one below it talking about tennis and skipped the middle line. My bad.

 

[Goro]

Those are just a few examples. They're easier to document too.

And yet it seems it must always be through a specific organization (and the majority of those being religiously affiliated), rather than helping out where you can, when you can *sigh*.

 

[Chansey]

Problem is you're emphasizing stats when she has a completely different background/ profile from you. I'm inclined to think Harvard/Yale was drawn to her background, but their pool is too competitive.

I was also rejected from Yale and Harvard post-interview, so I suspect that the OP and I do have similar profiles. In fact, for 11 the schools that we both applied to, our results are almost identical.

I told her to apply to those 5 schools because they fit her profile well. I agree that one should apply broadly, but I don't think you need more than 2 or 3 mid-tier schools if your LizzyM score is ~80. The focus should definitely be on the top 25. (The non Top-25 schools I recommend would be Ohio State University and Saint Louis University, because I know they interview a lot of high-stat applicants.)

 

[flowerpower123]

If OP spent 800 hours sitting behind an information desk or refilling the coffee in the break room, the fact that it happened to be in a hospital doesn't mean much. That kind of volunteering + non-clinical research = zero hours of patient contact.

All my volunteering had direct patient contact

 

[solitarius]

Her LizzyM is not really 80. And she doesn't fit the profile of an 80.

She's getting that spot(s) reserved for someone with a different background to edumucate all those sheltered Ivy League kids w/ 3 pubs and 2 patents.

 

[flowerpower123]

Her LizzyM is not really 80. And she doesn't fit the profile of an 80

What does that mean?

 

[flowerpower123]

OK, one more piece to the puzzle. Most successful applicants have at least 100 hrs of non-clinical ECs.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

One can find plenty of service opportunities starting with your local houses of worship.

I like to point out that stats get you to the door, but ECs get you through the door.

This may be an issue, while the hospital I volunteer at has a very large homelss population, I haven't done much outside of the medical realm

[/QUOTE]
Thank you so much Goro... This is really helpful as it gives me something concrete to start working on. I really appreciate the examples you provided.

 

[miszfifi820]

All my volunteering had direct patient contact; e.g. ER volunteer and health care planning

not to be annoying, but what do you consider direct patient contact? I volunteered at an ER but I would never consider that clinical experience because I wasnt trained, qualified, or licensed to administer any services. All I could legally do was talk to the patients and observe. What was your role and duties in the ER?

 

[Inventor of Post-Its]

Here's another theory - since you're a reapplicant, did you critically re-examine your entire application after the first round? Did you speak to admissions officers to get their take? Or did you just figure your MCAT was the problem and fix that?

I would imagine applying to a lot of the same schools with the exact same application save for a much higher MCAT wouldn't exactly impress most adcoms.

 

[mehc012]

Those are just a few examples. They're easier to document too.

Exactly...the way the EC reporting is set up, you kind of have to do some sort of official, structured activity in order to be able to report it. I understand that there aren't really any good alternatives for it, but it's still a bit frustrating.

 

[miszfifi820]

thanks @Inventor of Post-Its that was what I was trying to get across. Lets be honest, you dont do much volunteering at a hospital. you cant do much regadless of how long you've been there because of liability issues. You may be able clean out beds, stock supplies, run errands, and maybe interact with patients or guests at a very minimal level. When I think of what is defined as clinical experience, I think of experiences where you have cared or treated an individual. But thats just my mindset.

 

[mehc012]

not to be annoying, but what do you consider direct patient contact? I volunteered at an ER but I would never consider that clinical experience because I wasnt trained, qualified, or licensed to administer any services. All I could legally do was talk to the patients and observe. What was your role and duties in the ER?

That's still direct patient contact. You don't need to be a clinician to get clinical experience.
The saying is 'if you can smell the patient, it is clinical experience', not 'if you are already a doctor, you can become a doctor.'

thanks @Inventor of Post-Its that was what I was trying to get across. Lets be honest, you dont do much volunteering at a hospital. you cant do much regadless of how long you've been there because of liability issues. You may be able clean out beds, stock supplies, run errands, and maybe interact with patients or guests at a very minimal level. When I think of what is defined as clinical experience, I think of experiences where you have cared or treated an individual. But thats just my mindset.

That may be what you think of, but that is an atypical definition of it and not what is expected of applicants by most.

 

[flowerpower123]

not to be annoying, but what do you consider direct patient contact? I volunteered at an ER but I would never consider that clinical experience because I wasnt trained, qualified, or licensed to administer any services. All I could legally do was talk to the patients and observe. What was your role and duties in the ER?

I go and talk with the patients while they're waiting

 

[miszfifi820]

That's still direct patient contact. You don't need to be a clinician to get clinical experience.
The saying is 'if you can smell the patient, it is clinical experience', not 'if you are already a doctor, you can become a doctor.'

That may be what you think of, but that is an atypical definition of it and not what is expected of applicants by most.

Um, I can smell patients from sitting in front of a sign in sheet in the ER.... but to each its own. And no one said you had to be a doctor but MANY applicants work as EMTs, CNAs, Patient Care Techs, etc. So its very realistic

 

[flowerpower123]

I'm still unclear on the timing of all of this.

OP said they "didn't continue" with their first round of applications. So I'm not sure exactly what stage this occurred at (i.e. just didn't fill out secondaries or what)?

I'm also unclear of the timing of the improved MCAT score - was that score available when they first applied this season, or did they get the score back after application was already submitted?

took my second MCAT 2014 and reapplied 2014/2015