4th Year Osteopathic Student Poll

[bth7]

As I move around the country doing audition rotations and residency interviews, I wonder what my fellow DO students experiences are. I know, there's a lot of diversity in peoples' individual experiences, especially by the time we arrive at interview season mid-forth year.

I recently had a program director say "You're a really strong applicant, but, we just aren't interviewing any DO students this year." It pissed me off, and made me think I probably didn't want to be at that program anyway. But it still sucks.

It's one thing to talk about this issue in the abstract. There's various ways we dismiss the issue or work around it. By now, we've all acquired this skill very well: getting what you want out the the system in spite of obstacles.

Still, I wonder, how many of us experience this particular obstacle?

bth

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[J1515]

I recently had a program director say "You're a really strong applicant, but, we just aren't interviewing any DO students this year." It pissed me off, and made me think I probably didn't want to be at that program anyway. But it still sucks.

Then you weren't 'strong enough'. The idea is to have the PD think "We need this guy in our program."

Sure it sucks that he said that to you, but I can't say I completely blame him and I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often. Just look at how many people ask in these forums "can I get in with an 18 on the MCAT"? It's sad, and as long as the DO schools continue to let in students with sub-par stats, the whole reputation of being a lesser degree will never be completely eliminated.

 

[ceftazidime]

I applied to an IM program at Orlando Regional that is notorious for never interviewing DOs, and after looking at their website I realized that most of their residents are FMGs or graduates of Caribbean schools! Now I never really planned on going there anyway, but it just doesn't make sense that I'm getting interviews at university-based allopathic residencies in the same state, but not at this little community hospital that nobody's ever heard of. The way I see it, it is really their loss if they are willing to take IMGs over DOs.

J1515, while there still may be a stigma associated with DO school admissions, I think the board scores of an applicant (especially if they did well on the USMLE) should speak for themselves. Despite what your stats may have been before med school, it is the stats you come out with that should really be measured. It is totally unfair for a program director to state "we aren't interviewing DO students this year" as if we're somehow placed in a separate pile of applicants from MDs.

 

[bigDinLV]

Perhaps it was just an excuse not to interview YOU?

 

[J1515]

J1515, while there still may be a stigma associated with DO school admissions, I think the board scores of an applicant (especially if they did well on the USMLE) should speak for themselves.

Unfortunately the world isn't all sunshine and lollipops. In todays society everyone has this sense of entitlement where they feel anyone can do anything, which is complete bull****. In my opinion, if you can't score above a 20 on the MCAT (which is 4 points below the average), you shouldn't be in medical school of any kind. The fact of the matter is, not everyone is cut out to be a doctor. The longer DO schools continue to admit people with below average MCAT scores, the longer it will take to *completely* rid the profession of the stigma from 100 years ago. I'm not saying this is fair. But the world isn't fair, and that's something that people have forgotten. I see DO students who couldn't even score the national average on the MCAT who should be thanking their lucky stars they are going to become a licensed physician of any kind. Instead, they are complaining that they should have the initials MD somewhere in their name. Again, it all goes back to this sense of entitlement the country has.

 

[zmeister22]

Unfortunately the world isn't all sunshine and lollipops. In todays society everyone has this sense of entitlement where they feel anyone can do anything, which is complete bull****. In my opinion, if you can't score above a 20 on the MCAT (which is 4 points below the average), you shouldn't be in medical school of any kind. The fact of the matter is, not everyone is cut out to be a doctor. The longer DO schools continue to admit people with below average MCAT scores, the longer it will take to *completely* rid the profession of the stigma from 100 years ago. I'm not saying this is fair. But the world isn't fair, and that's something that people have forgotten. I see DO students who couldn't even score the national average on the MCAT who should be thanking their lucky stars they are going to become a licensed physician of any kind. Instead, they are complaining that they should have the initials MD somewhere in their name. Again, it all goes back to this sense of entitlement the country has.

I know people at MD schools who got a 22 on their MCAT, said they wanted to do nothing but primary care to get in and now are applying to rads. There are people in my class(DMU) who got 34 on the MCAT. Class average was 27, GPA was 3.70. I guess everything looks a little more clear cut up on that high horse .

Don't think a large portion of DO students should become physicians? Feel free to take over on that extra 40% patient load and don't b**** about it in the mean time.

 

[J1515]

I know people at MD schools who got a 22 on their MCAT, said they wanted to do nothing but primary care to get in and now are applying to rads. There are people in my class(DMU) who got 34 on the MCAT. Class average was 27, GPA was 3.70. I guess everything looks a little more clear cut up on that high horse .

I was actually going to mention the famous anecdotal SDN favorite student who got a 12 on the MCAT and ended up blowing away all three steps of the USMLE and landed the derm residency, but I knew someone else would mention it instead. Bottom line is, there are DO schools admitting people ON AVERAGE with MCATs below 24. For every one of these success stories of the 18 MCAT acing the COMLEX and scoring 245 on the USMLE, there are 100 barely passing the COMLEX and failing the USMLE. Fantastic, your class has people who got 30+ on the MCAT. Who cares? So did my class. That's not the majority of DO students. Stats don't lie. I'm simply facing the truth why a PD wouldn't accept DOs.

 

[DOinMS]

To what kind of schools are the majority of applicants with higher stats applying? What do you think can be done to improve the applicant pool to D.O. schools?

The answer is obvious.

 

[J1515]

Funny post coming from a guy scrambling on the DO forums a mere 4 years ago. You should put in a request to change your username to Transparent.

I got into MD and DO schools 4 years ago and made an educated decision to choose a specific school. Not sure what you mean by "scrambling", but thanks for playing.

 

[andexterouss]

J1515,
I doubt anyone with an 18/20 MCAT will get into a DO school. Not this year at least. Those PDs should keep with the times. Touro has a cut-off of 23 before they send a secondary. UMDNJ-SOM wait-listed me even with my 28. The scores this year were through the roof and I met both current and prospective students from MIT, Yale and NYU while on the trail. Will these PDs interview MDs students from Meharry, Howard, Mercer or Ponce? Schools that have similar stats to some DO schools?If the answer is yes, then this might be a strong argument for degree change since the only thing holding a candidate back is one letter.

 

[ceftazidime]

Agree with above. And like I said in my post above, there are programs interviewing Caribbean students (who may not have even taken the MCAT depending on their school) over DO students. This is DO discrimination at its worst in my opinion. It is good to know that this is very rare, however. For the allopathic institutions that regularly accept DOs, the PDs I've spoken to are very satisfied and have nothing but good things to say about them.

 

[J1515]

J1515,
I doubt anyone with an 18/20 MCAT will get into a DO school. Not this year at least. Those PDs should keep with the times. Touro has a cut-off of 23 before they send a secondary. UMDNJ-SOM wait-listed me even with my 28. The scores this year were through the roof and I met both current and prospective students from MIT, Yale and NYU while on the trail. Will these PDs interview MDs students from Meharry, Howard, Mercer or Ponce? Schools that have similar stats to some DO schools?If the answer is yes, then this might be a strong argument for degree change since the only thing holding a candidate back is one letter.

This is what you don't get - it isn't "one letter". You can change the letters to "super duper MD" for all anyone cares. It won't change the fact that DO schools (or let's say now 'super duper MD schools')are letting students in with sub-par stats. The few biased PDs left will not change their opinions just because the initials are different. There are some programs that will interview DOs and not FMGs, and there are others that interview FMGs but not DOs. That's life. The solution is to attend a US MD school.

Meharry, Howard, etc.. are the outliers to the allopathic world that people in these arguments love to bring up. Everyone loves to bring up the exceptions, whether it's the guy you know who got a 20 on the MCAT and landed the derm residency, or the 3 or 4 or 10 (out of 120) allopathic schools that take lower GPAs/MCAT scores. We are talking majority here.

Look, the last thing I want to do is bash my own profession. But I will not pretend to be blind to the problems of the osteopathic profession. Stomping your feet and crying that this isn't fair isn't going to solve anything. Actions speak louder that words. Want to show PDs you are equal? Take the MCAT and don't apply to any school until you can break a 24 (you should at least be average to be a doctor, don't you think?). Take the USMLE and pass it. Stop with the nonsense about how "we aren't taught to take the USMLE" or "one test doesn't determine how good of a doctor I will be". Instead of making excuses, beat them at their own game. If you can't then you really aren't equal per se, right?

If you think I'm being harsh and don't want to do any of the above, then simply apply for osteopathic residencies only and enjoy the fact that you are going to become a fully licensed physician .

 

[NPEMTIV]

I feel your folks' pain.

I applied to a DO residency, but they told me they weren't interviewing MDs . . . ever.

Kinda sad too. Its easy for me to be happy about having a pool (albeit somewhat small) of residencies just for DOs, but how many of them are so heavily laden with OMM that an MD couldn't do well?

 

[ceftazidime]

Kinda sad too. Its easy for me to be happy about having a pool (albeit somewhat small) of residencies just for DOs, but how many of them are so heavily laden with OMM that an MD couldn't do well?

None of them, except for the OMT/NMM fellowships. The main reason MDs cannot participate in DO residencies is so that DOs can maintain their "distinction" as a different profession. There are some DO programs, however, that are seeking dual-accreditation so that MDs can participate as well. I think this is only fair, and who knows... maybe if this trend continues then more allopathic programs would be more willing to open their doors to DOs.

 

[DrMidlife]

There are some DO programs, however, that are seeking dual-accreditation so that MDs can participate as well.

Isn't this the other way around, that there are existing ACGME programs that are getting AOA accredited? And either way, isn't the point of dual-accreditation to get DOs in to ACGME residencies without having to jump through the rule 42 hoop for internship?

 

[scpod]

...., isn't the point of dual-accreditation to get DOs in to ACGME residencies without having to jump through the rule 42 hoop for internship?

In a bunch of cases it's an attempt to attract American medical students to ACGME residencies that previously only attracted foreign students.

 

[ceftazidime]

Isn't this the other way around, that there are existing ACGME programs that are getting AOA accredited? And either way, isn't the point of dual-accreditation to get DOs in to ACGME residencies without having to jump through the rule 42 hoop for internship?

Normally it has been the other way around, as you stated. But with more osteopathic residencies going unfilled every year due to more DOs matching allopathic, these residencies are faced with the prospect of losing funding for their chronically-unfilled spots. Therefore individual program directors are wising up and seeking dual-accreditation to help fill those spots. Great idea in my opinion.

 

[FutureInternist]

UTSW @ Dallas doesn't take DOs from what I have been told.

UT Houston, UT-San Antonio require ALL applicants to take the USMLE 1 but not anti-DO at all once you take it.

 

[bravotwozero]

UTSW @ Dallas doesn't take DOs from what I have been told.

I looked into their EM program, which has DO residents.

 

[FutureInternist]

I looked into their EM program, which has DO residents.

Sorry...I was referring to IM only. From their website, they have taken FMGs but no DOs

 

[andexterouss]

This is what you don't get - it isn't "one letter". You can change the letters to "super duper MD" for all anyone cares. It won't change the fact that DO schools (or let's say now 'super duper MD schools')are letting students in with sub-par stats. The few biased PDs left will not change their opinions just because the initials are different. There are some programs that will interview DOs and not FMGs, and there are others that interview FMGs but not DOs. That's life. The solution is to attend a US MD school.

I don't think DO schools aren't letting in "subpar" applicants. That is just what they can attract that's all. I'm among the very few that only applied DO even though my stats was good enough for my state school. In fact, there is now a good thread in the pre-allo forum where a good number of students wanted to apply to osteopathic schools but didn't because they don't want to explain their "DO" to friends and family. Having a degree change could attract otherwise well qualified students who like the osteopathic philosophy but don't want the potential baggage it may carry. When you get that kind of competition, the bottom-feeders die out or go somewhere else(carib??).

And if you think it's bad now, wait until more MD schools increase their class size coupled with more astronomical DO school tuition price tag. Good candidates will either get taken by MD schools or they sit at home rather than drown in debt.

 

[J1515]

I don't think DO schools aren't letting in "subpar" applicants. That is just what they can attract that's all.

The solution to that is stop increasing class sizes and stop opening up branch campuses left and right. Quality over quantity. If a certain school that admits 310 students every year trimmed that down to 210, not only would they eliminate the weaker students who barely pass the comlex and fail the usmle, but the drop out rate would decrease as well and the MCAT/GPA of the enterting class would increase.

 

[andexterouss]

see below

 

[andexterouss]

The solution to that is stop increasing class sizes and stop opening up branch campuses left and right. Quality over quantity. If a certain school that admits 310 students every year trimmed that down to 210, not only would they eliminate the weaker students who barely pass the comlex and fail the usmle, but the drop out rate would decrease as well and the MCAT/GPA of the enterting class would increase.

Agree.

 

[DOinMS]

I don't think DO schools aren't letting in "subpar" applicants. That is just what they can attract that's all. I'm among the very few that only applied DO even though my stats was good enough for my state school. In fact, there is now a good thread in the pre-allo forum where a good number of students wanted to apply to osteopathic schools but didn't because they don't want to explain their "DO" to friends and family. Having a degree change could attract otherwise well qualified students who like the osteopathic philosophy but don't want the potential baggage it may carry. When you get that kind of competition, the bottom-feeders die out or go somewhere else(carib??).

And if you think it's bad now, wait until more MD schools increase their class size coupled with more astronomical DO school tuition price tag. Good candidates will either get taken by MD schools or they sit at home rather than drown in debt.

You are absolutely correct. 66% of persons who applied to DO programs also applied to MD programs. You change the degree, you change the applicant pool - pure and simple - no room for argument. It's not like DO schools go out and look for people with subpar stats - that's just the nature of the applicant pool on average.

I, like a few others, applied only to DO despite having scores that were competitive for allopathic programs. Moreover, I applied to one DO school because of its work in international medical missions. Unfortunately, I was not aware of the extent of problems that can be directly attributed to the degree and the AOA (e.g. proliferation of schools, endorsement of for-profits, lack of international recognition, etc.). Had I been more aware, I probably would have made a different decision.

 

[ironmaidenrules]

J1515,

Where are the stats on average mcat and gpas of the different osteopathic schools? Granted, I am sure they are lower than allo schools but I didn't think they were as much as you say. I thought the comlex was set to a bell curve grading with 500 as the average and the SD at around 78. The minimum pass is 400 automatically making about 6 or 7% (I may be a little off, don't want the find the z-score and plug it in) fail. Maybe I'm wrong on that. Anyways, I would be interested in seeing the average mcat and gpas.

Thanks--Maiden still rules!!

 

[rkaz]

J1515,

Where are the stats on average mcat and gpas of the different osteopathic schools? Granted, I am sure they are lower than allo schools but I didn't think they were as much as you say. I thought the comlex was set to a bell curve grading with 500 as the average and the SD at around 78. The minimum pass is 400 automatically making about 6 or 7% (I may be a little off, don't want the find the z-score and plug it in) fail. Maybe I'm wrong on that. Anyways, I would be interested in seeing the average mcat and gpas.

Thanks--Maiden still rules!!

There is currently a thread in pre-osteo trying to figure out the MCAT/GPA scores of specific schools. I actually found a list online, but other students informed me that the list wasn't totally updated. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=7534286#post7534286

If you want to find the average scores of DO matriculants, you can find it from the AACOMAS site at: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2009toc/2009_CIBp8-12.pdf
It has some good DO applicant information there. According to that page, the average GPA's for 2006 matriculants were:
-overall GPA:3.45
-science GPA: 3.36
-non-science GPA: 3.55
-MCAT: 25.5

 

[bth7]

There is currently a thread in pre-osteo trying to figure out the MCAT/GPA scores of specific schools. I actually found a list online, but other students informed me that the list wasn't totally updated. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=7534286#post7534286

If you want to find the average scores of DO matriculants, you can find it from the AACOMAS site at: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/cib2009toc/2009_CIBp8-12.pdf
It has some good DO applicant information there. According to that page, the average GPA's for 2006 matriculants were:
-overall GPA:3.45
-science GPA: 3.36
-non-science GPA: 3.55
-MCAT: 25.5

You can also find lots of statistical information here:

Osteopathic medicine in the United States