70000/year-UPenn.. is it worth it??

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joooj86

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i mean really $70000 a year to go to UPenn is it really worth it. I'm someone that will be taking loans. As i calculated there is a $150000 difference between going to my state school or going to Upenn. Is it really worth it to go there and have all these loans... some feedback plz
ohhh btw here is where it says 70000 if u dont believe me: http://www.dental.upenn.edu/academic/DMDprogram/dmd-tuition.html rogram/dmd-tuition.html

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joooj86 said:
i mean really $70000 a year to go to UPenn is it really worth it. I'm someone that will be taking loans. As i calculated there is a $150000 difference between going to my state school or going to Upenn. Is it really worth it to go there and have all these loans... some feedback plz
ohhh btw here is where it says 70000 if u dont believe me: http://www.dental.upenn.edu/academic/DMDprogram/dmd-tuition.html rogram/dmd-tuition.html
Unequivocally NOT worth it. Take the $150,000, buy a couple investment properties or something similar, and earn money with it rather than throw it away to get a different set of signatures at the bottom of your diploma.
 
I agree with aphistis. If you like your state school, you probably should go to your state school. Upenn is a great place, but it is quite costly. Of cos, you have to consider what you want to do. Do you want to be a GP, to specialize, ... Do you like Philly? Away from home, cold winter, etc. is Upenn significantly better than your state sch? Does it worth your extra 150K?
 
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I was in the same situation and although I loved Penn I decided to go to my state school.
 
Holy smokes!

That's A LOT of money. If you are borrowing all of it, then go to your state school. The name recognition of Penn will only get you so far; in the end, it will be you who is writing out the loan cehck every month, not the people who oooh and ahhh when you say "Penn."

If someone else is offering to pay for it (mom & dad, grandpa, Army/Navy/Air Force, etc.), then go wherever you want.

What other school are you debating Penn against? Maybe there are others on this board who went through the same situation and can help you.
 
Nothing wrong with the state schools. Save the cash, invest it, or just don't borrow it if you don't need to. When you graduate, your interest will most likely be around 7% +/- and that much interest on 150,000 is ridiculous.

Again, nothing wrong with the state school.
 
Can anyone think of a reason to attend Columbia over UCLA or UCSF if you were a CA resident? (other than prestige)

I'd love to hear. . .
 
Unless you get full scholarship.... Its definetly not a good idea to spend $70k/year at UPenn when you can get the same education somewhere else much, much, much, much cheaper.

If that's the only school you are down to - go for it.

But, $70,000 a year! debt (for 4 years) - that's difficult to swallow.

That makes no sense.
 
Actually UCLA and UCSF are much more prestigious than columbia, IMHO.
 
Rather than listening to people that are obviously biased, ask people that go to Penn. Ask them why they are willing to pay that much for what others view as the same education. If accepted there I will pay it, no questions asked. I have my own reasons for it and I'm not actually paying it yet. Talk to people that DO pay it to get a better idea of the positives.

Cheers,
Marshall
 
marshall said:
Rather than listening to people that are obviously biased, ask people that go to Penn. Ask them why they are willing to pay that much for what others view as the same education. If accepted there I will pay it, no questions asked. I have my own reasons for it and I'm not actually paying it yet. Talk to people that DO pay it to get a better idea of the positives.

Cheers,
Marshall

Yeah, ask students currently at Penn but be sure to talk to current seniors or recent graduates. First year student opinions are pretty useless unless you are asking them about how to study for classes. They don't know a thing about clinical experiences or post-grad prospectives (specializing, residency, or private practice). Thinking back on my 4 years, I knew beans about my dental school in the first year. Having been through the entire 4 years, I can form a much better opinion of the didactic and clinical (the more important of the two) aspects of my school.

Also, you can search on Dentaltown.com or post this question over there. Real practicing dentists that can tell you if that $70,000 is worth it or not. As a non-practicing dentist I don't think it's really worth it if you're borrowing the whole thing and if you have a cheaper alternative.

About the Columbia vs. UCLA/UCSF - see above paragraph. The only reason to attend Columbia over the other two schools is if you have some pressing need to be in NYC or on the east coast. I agree with Westcoast, so IMO I woudn't put prestige as a reason to pick Columbia over the other two.
 
marshall said:
Rather than listening to people that are obviously biased, ask people that go to Penn. Ask them why they are willing to pay that much for what others view as the same education. If accepted there I will pay it, no questions asked. I have my own reasons for it and I'm not actually paying it yet. Talk to people that DO pay it to get a better idea of the positives.

Cheers,
Marshall
Question #1: What bias am I so obviously exhibiting? You're confusing prejudice with a simple strong opinion.

Question #2: Even assuming everyone in this thread IS biased, your suggested solution is to ask current students at the school? Way to remove bias from the equation. 😉
 
aphistis said:
Question #1: What bias am I so obviously exhibiting? You're confusing prejudice with a simple strong opinion.

Question #2: Even assuming everyone in this thread IS biased, your suggested solution is to ask current students at the school? Way to remove bias from the equation. 😉

#1 You go to a cheaper state school and said paying 70k per year to Penn would be "throwing it away". I think that qualifies you as biased. If you didn't go to a state school maybe I would think differently.

#2 I was suggesting joooj86 get some positive input. Everyone had a negative opinion and was proclaiming the absurdity of Penn's budget as fact (as indicated by your post "unequivocally NOT worth it"). The only way to remove bias completely is to look at the stats (specialization, board scores, etc) and that is covered elsewhere on this forum.

The point is that 97 sane individuals pay Penn's premium and I'm positive that the majority of them had cheaper options, yet they chose Penn. If it is so unequivocally unworth it, why are people itching to get a spot there?

Cheers,
Marshall
 
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marshall said:
#1 You go to a cheaper state school and said paying 70k per year to Penn would be "throwing it away". I think that qualifies you as biased. If you didn't go to a state school maybe I would think differently.

#2 I was suggesting joooj86 get some positive input. Everyone had a negative opinion and was proclaiming the absurdity of Penn's budget as fact (as indicated by your post "unequivocally NOT worth it"). The only way to remove bias completely is to look at the stats (specialization, board scores, etc) and that is covered elsewhere on this forum.

The point is that 97 sane individuals pay Penn's premium and I'm positive that the majority of them had cheaper options, yet they chose Penn. If it is so unequivocally unworth it, why are people itching to get a spot there?

Cheers,
Marshall
Well, like I said, you're confusing prejudice with an ordinary strong opinion. But whatever floats your boat.
 
marshall said:
If it is so unequivocally unworth it, why are people itching to get a spot there?

Cheers,
Marshall

People itch for the spot at Penn b/c they are convinced that the other things you mention (board scores, potentially higher chance to specialize, prestige, diversity) are worth the extra $150,000 to go there. Once a pre-dent makes his/her final decision to enroll at a dental school, they are bound to go there for the 4 years. There is very little room to transfer dental schools so unless you have a VERY compelling reason to leave or transfer (stuff like "I hate the snow" & "I miss my dog" doesn't count), the student bascially sucks it up for the 4 years there, regardless of the cost. Once the decision is made, there is no turning back to see what may have been if the student had opted for the cheaper school.

Penn may have a higher board average, but they are not a P/F school. There was a discussion last year about grading systems at different schools and Penn students told us they are given letter grades and a numeric GPA on a scale of 4.0. If you still have to study like crazy and try to earn the highest GPA possible for the chance to rank higher than your classmates in order to specialize in ortho/endo/OMS (if the chance to go into those specialties is your reason for choosing Penn), then it's not any different from the majority of other dental schools out there where you do the same thing. I don't see where Penn students have the advantage here b/c if you are applying to specialty with a rank and GPA on your transcript, the fact that it says "Penn" on there will make a very small difference in your favor. Is it worth the extra $150,000 debt? I guess those 97 students feel it is. If there were no rank & GPA and the chance at a stellar board score (UCLA, UCONN, soon to be Columbia), maybe it would be a different argument.

When you have a family & home and have to start paying the $70,000 x 4 years back to the bank, people start telling a different story. Of course, at that point it is too late to go back and change the decision you made as a pre-dent to pay the extra $$$ for the perceived prestige/diversity/specialty/board scores you would get, so you make the best of the decision you did make. It wasn't the wrong decision - you still accomplished your dream to be a dentist - but would you do it again? This is why it is key to talk to recent graduates of the school - the ones who are paying their loans, not the ones in residency that are still deferring their loans.

Read this thread and decide for yourself if Penn Dental was worth it for where this dental couple now stands in their dental careers.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=92079
 
Marshall, most of us here are well ranged in the amount of tuition and fees we pay and the debt we will incur. It's safe to say that most people would rather pay less and go to their state school, and save/invest/never take out a loan on the difference between the state school and the private school. The minority who would rather pay that extra $150,000 (Cost of a decent HOUSE!!!) to go to Penn, NYU, Tufts, etc.based on prestige usually have the money to avoid taking out loans.

Our OP is going to take out loans, so students who go to Penn and chose it over their state school because of "prestige" have a very good chance of being even more biased in their decision than most of us who have posted here. I still encourage him to look into his decision over at upenndentists.com, but when it comes down to it NO single academic program is worth the extra "house". When you factor in your other preferences ("prestige" included) it may make UPenn worth the extra 150grand. However, most of us are your average person with similar utility curves, and we don't weigh prestige very highly on that curve. Instead, we value a home, our family's financial stability, and being debt free faster much more than a simple name attached to a sheet of paper.

Remember, you will rarely ever have to answer to your patient about where you went to school. So, if your ego is $150,000 big, go for UPenn. Otherwise, the state school is much more valuable.

Biased? Yes, but that's my opinion (which seems to agree with the majority here). Did I mention that most of us are incurring the extra load of debt and would rather have saved that hundred grand? Just making sure you realize that.
 
DrPheta, I agree with what you've said. For some it is a really easy decision because that $150k will buy a lot and could be viewed as taken away from your family. But if Penn (and other expensive schools) will help you get where you want to go and are a good fit, I think the extra cash is worth it. I don't have the extra cash to throw around any more than other posters but I believe that many people do not have their state school as an option and in such cases if Penn is available, they should go for it.

However, the gap between private and public schools' cost of attendance is narrowing, at least in my home state of California.

4-year UCSF cost of attendance 2004-2005: 204,343
4-year Penn cost of attendance 2004-2005: 276,445

Is that 72k important? You bet! But keep in mind that it will probably reduce if the budget continues to deteriorate in California as far as dental school fees are concerned and you may enjoy Penn more. You can also get need-based grants from Penn up to 8k/year I think. They also give out the 60k research scholarship.

Just my thoughts...

Cheers,
Marshall
 
He never actually said how much his state school was going to cost. Some state schools are more expenisve than others. I faced the same problem when I applied to dental schools last cycle. My state school came out to 32k while penn was 68k. I actually almost didn't apply to penn just for that reason, but I ended up getting 21k off with this scholarship, so it came down to 32k vs. 46k which is still a difference but not that significant in my opinion, so I decided to go with the school that I liked more, which was penn. To the person who posted the question, I was in the same place last year with that problem that you're facing and I was really apprehensive to apply to penn b/c of its tuition and the attitude towards it from the forum members, but you never know what the future holds for you, look into both schools and who knows, you may not like your state school while fall inlove with penn and vice versa, at the end, you're the one who will be spending the next 4 years of your life there and not the forum members, no disrespect.
 
Good call on the possibility of scholarships, but we didn't say don't go based on minimal differences, as in your case.

The OP said:
As i calculated there is a $150000 difference between going to my state school or going to Upenn. Is it really worth it to go there and have all these loans

Based on that part of his/her question, we mostly agreed on saving the 150,000 and taking the state school. But it is ultimately his/her decision...we're just giving him/her the input he/she asked for.

Good luck on your choice, joooj86.
 
To the OP.....im just a stupid predent, but if you dont believe me, goto www.dentaltown.com and read the posts from dentists there......their advice? GOTO THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!

Every dental school in the US is accredited by the ADA, so everyone will give you a basic dental education......Ive said this PLENTY of times regarding COlumbia and the same holds true for Penn.....IVY LEAGUE is totally overrated. Im so glad I grew up in Canada where no one knew nor cared about the Ivy League....but this impression that Penn will help you get into a specialty is bogus......just look at Penn's specialty stats.......nothing impressive.....the only thing that stands out is its matching rate in Oral Surgery.....so I guess it seems that going to Penn gives you an advantage getting into that field, but as for the other specialities, Penn gives you no advantage whatsoever.....so please get this stereotype out of your mind.

Is Penn worth it???...........HELLLLLLZ NO!
 
I need to preface what I am saying by giving some of my background. I go to Cornell University, where I am paying a lot more money for my degree as opposed going to a state school. Can I say the extra money is worth it? I think so. I transferred from a state school, and a community college. I found that I got a much better education at Cornell. All schools are accredited and allowed to grant me a degree (the CC could only grant an AS, but that is irrelevant to my point). Even though both schools can grant degrees, one was clearly better than the other.
Once I started researching schools, I looked into the acceptance rates to dental and medical schools. I found that Cornell had a higher percentage of acceptances than the national average, and specifically higher than my old school. I came to the conclusion that the extra money I pay to Cornell is worth it. The few times I spoke to adcoms, they also told me my ivy league degree would make a difference.
I am the first to admit that I have neither been accepted to d-school, or am currently looking for a match at a residency program. I will assume that the same competitive advantage does apply to ivy league dental graduates, no matter how small an advantage it may be.
Some people don't mind spending the extra money having their essays edited by essayedge.com. They would rather pay to have a pro do it as opposed to a friend or an english teacher. I am the first to admit that I payed the $300, and I think it was worth it. Some people are willing to pay more for their degree, and I don't understand why some of you are so opposed to that. I don't think anyone has said one nice thing about Penn, Columbia, or Harvard. You guys make it sound as if these schools are filled with money-hungry administrator, and spoiled superficial students. I am sure that very nice people go to these schools, and I have no idea why you guys are so prejudiced against them.
I would suggest that for the remainder of this thread, we have some Penn, Harvard, or Columbia students tell us why they love their schools. So far, all we have heard from is haters.

PS-In case you were wondering, I have not decided if I will go to one of my state schools (NY), or any ivy league school (assuming I get in), or even (god forbid-the nexus of all evil in the world!!!) NYU.
 
edkNARF said:
I don't think anyone has said one nice thing about Penn, Columbia, or Harvard. You guys make it sound as if these schools are filled with money-hungry administrator, and spoiled superficial students. I am sure that very nice people go to these schools, and I have no idea why you guys are so prejudiced against them.
QUOTE]

I am sorry but as far as I remember nobody really has said bad things about Harvard(except for more research oriented) and almost everyone says that if you want to specialize that is the only school that really gives 100% chance to specialize. Others like columbia, Penn etc. don't make a difference. Harvard is cheaper than most of the Ivy league schools. I agree that paying the extra money is not worth it but that is just my personal opinion. I believe that If I am smart enough I will make it where I want to be and I don't need some IVY to back me up with and I am not good that I won't make it there no matter where I get my education. That is just my opinion. I am just a pre-dent applying this year to dental school so i don't have much Idea of school but I will make my decision based on how much school costs and location but that is just me.
 
edkNarf......dude, you are comparing an IVY league undergrad to Ivy League dental school......apples and oranges my friend......

And im not saying that the ivy league school is gonna give you a bad dental education....far from it.....im just saying it aint gonna give you anything "more" or "better" than a cheaper state school........dentistry is not law.....having an Ivy degree will get you a great job at a large firm, but having an Ivy League degree aint gonna give you more dental patients.....save the money and buy the wife something nice instead 😀

Here is a quote from a dentist who graduated 10 years ago, and this is what he said in the Dental forums:

"Penn is good, but, its too damn expensive. Realistically, a degree is a degree. No one has ever cared where i graduated from, so why not go to the cheaper school? I was about $60,000 in debt and my nonthy payments were about $500 so, if i go to Penn, and am in $140,000 debt, so now my monthly payments will be north of $1000. Would I have gotten a better education? probably not."

Recall that going to Penn nowadays will put you much more in debt than the $140K 10 years ago......thus monthly payments are gonna be quite high upon graduation....
 
Let people be happy with their thinking. No matter how hard you try you will not change most of their minds.

Hell, there are still people that think the world is flat and all the video footage you see from space is hollywood editing.

Oh well...
 
Brocnizer2007 said:
Let people be happy with their thinking. No matter how hard you try you will not change most of their minds.

Hell, there are still people that think the world is flat and all the video footage you see from space is hollywood editing.

Oh well...

good point Broc.....hell, some people dont believe in evolution still.......
 
Dr. BadVibes and Brocnzier-Again, someone is being attacked for merely defending a school. I was not trying to say that Penn is 100% worth it, I was just trying to present a reason who some people would think it is. I for one think it may help to go to prestigious private school. I just finished the DAT, and am starting to focus my attention on applying to schools. One of the aspects of my application I am considering is the cost of different schools. From what I have read, I believe that most SDNers seem to believe that any school that is not a state d-school is a waste of money. I assumed both of you were in that camp. I found it very interesting that both of you go to private schools. To top that off, one of them is NYU. After visiting these forums I have found that if there is one school SDNers like to put down, it is NYU.
 
edkNARF said:
Dr. BadVibes and Brocnzier-Again, someone is being attacked for merely defending a school. I was not trying to say that Penn is 100% worth it, I was just trying to present a reason who some people would think it is. I for one think it may help to go to prestigious private school. I just finished the DAT, and am starting to focus my attention on applying to schools. One of the aspects of my application I am considering is the cost of different schools. From what I have read, I believe that most SDNers seem to believe that any school that is not a state d-school is a waste of money. I assumed both of you were in that camp. I found it very interesting that both of you go to private schools. To top that off, one of them is NYU. After visiting these forums I have found that if there is one school SDNers like to put down, it is NYU.

You are completely missing the point here. Brocnizer only got accepted to NYU so that is the only choice he had. I don't think that anyone in SDN has ever said that if you only accepted to one school don't go there because it is most expensive. While Badvibes had choice between Coumbia and Temple?? You see the point here?? I think that most SDNers believe that if you got multiple acceptances should go to a cheaper school but sometimes there are other reasons such as family, where you want to practice and location etc. I believe and my Uncle who is also dentist believe that if you had a choice between cheaper(i mean diff of 60K or more over 4 years) and IVY league it is not a wise decision to attend IVY school unless your parents are paying or have cash to pay for it. Also if you accepted to harvard it is always a wise decision to go there if you want to specialize bcz it is still the only ivy league school which gives their students 100% chance to specialize. just my $.02.
 
It depends on what you are using Penn for? If you are trying to attend there to improve your job prospects upon graduation from dental school then Penn is most certainly not worth it. Pedigree and dental schools are almost an oxymoron. Dental schools are not like medical schools in which the name of your school can really help one advance their career. Also, consider the competition of your class. It would be much more difficult to rank in the top 20% of your class at Penn than another school because the student calibre is so much higher. That's something a lot of people don't think about.

However, I think Penn would provide one with a unique experience. It is an Ivy League school so you can feel good about that. You can tell your grandchildren and friends you attended an Ivy League school. Also, Penn is known for taking care of their students so you won't deal with a cheapskate administration and hassles that many other dental school students face. Finally, you have the opportunity to interact with a wide array of students that are intelligent and diverse. You won't be attending a state school where many of the students went to the same college and thus form dental cliques etc. Finally, if you decide to pursue an MBA or another degree, the Penn name will help one as opposed to attending a school like the University of Detroit Mercy. But the bottomline is that Penn won't make you a better dentist nor help you secure a specialized field if you aren't ranked high in your class. I think a high class ranking and top board score from any school will suit your job prospects much better than merely attending a dental school with a great name.

So it depends on what you are seeking.
 
edkNARF said:
Dr. BadVibes and Brocnzier-Again, someone is being attacked for merely defending a school. I was not trying to say that Penn is 100% worth it, I was just trying to present a reason who some people would think it is. I for one think it may help to go to prestigious private school. I just finished the DAT, and am starting to focus my attention on applying to schools. One of the aspects of my application I am considering is the cost of different schools. From what I have read, I believe that most SDNers seem to believe that any school that is not a state d-school is a waste of money. I assumed both of you were in that camp. I found it very interesting that both of you go to private schools. To top that off, one of them is NYU. After visiting these forums I have found that if there is one school SDNers like to put down, it is NYU.

I never said Penn was bad or good. I do not go there nor applied and frankly do not care.

I was making a general statement that there is no point in trying to change someone's mind if their mind is already made up...thats all

I know NYU is the bitch of SDN...did it sway my decesion, NO bec I know better than to listen to a bunch of pre-dents that are not even in dental school yet. I made my decesion from the interview and saw what I liked. And yes I picked this school over my state school even though its twice the cost. And it was not for the name, it was for the diverse clincial experience
 
Man, people need to read the OP's question, and then read the answer he/she's gotten that pertain to HIS/HER question. Dude, the OP asked specifically.

Is Penn DENTAL worth the extra $150,000 compared to a state school?

Then the OP goes on to say that he/she will be taking out loans

The predents that say it is not worth it are saying this because

1. The OP is asking as if he/she had a choice between the IVY and the state school

2. The OP will be taking out loans, which can be avoided and that money be used for better purposes. Mom and dad aren't fronting the additional $150,000, nor does the OP have some magical way of making $150,000 appear before his/her eyes w/o having to pay back interest.

3. DENTAL school is completely different than undergrad. Cornell undergrad will get you places that state schools won't DEPENDING on your major. Business/Econ/Finance/Prelaw will depend signifcantly on name. However, dentistry is different, and our posters are responding to the OP's question with this knowledge in hand. Additionally, they are pointing out to those who do not realize this fact so that people can make a wise decision about their money.

How did a question about a specific scenario become this huge bash about how schools are bad or good? ALLLLLL dental schools lie on the same level in the ADA's eyes, and subsequently the public's eyes (because you can pretty much bet 99.9% of the public couldn't care less about where their dentist went to school). If we nitpick the specifics of research and specialty, then some schools fair better than others. However, that's not what we're talking about in this thread.

Again, the answers stating that Penn is not worth the $150,000 relates to the OP's scenario. He/she is has a choice between schools and will be taking out loans to pay for Penn. Worth it in that sense? Nope.

BTW, broc has a significant advantage over the OP. He's got tons of money and the financial background to make the most of his greeeeen. So, you can't compare Broc's decision to go to NYU to the OP's. Unless, the OP's utility curve is such that Prestige is worth $150,000 or more, it isn't worth taking out that huge loan (again...that's a decent sized HOUSE) to attend a school that will provide essentially the same education as the state school.
 
drPheta said:
Unless, the OP's utility curve is such that Prestige is worth $150,000 or more, it isn't worth taking out that huge loan (again...that's a decent sized HOUSE) to attend a school that will provide essentially the same education as the state school.

I knew that utility curve stuff in econ101 would come in handy one day!!!
 
edkNARF said:
Dr. BadVibes and Brocnzier-Again, someone is being attacked for merely defending a school. I was not trying to say that Penn is 100% worth it, I was just trying to present a reason who some people would think it is. I for one think it may help to go to prestigious private school. I just finished the DAT, and am starting to focus my attention on applying to schools. One of the aspects of my application I am considering is the cost of different schools. From what I have read, I believe that most SDNers seem to believe that any school that is not a state d-school is a waste of money. I assumed both of you were in that camp. I found it very interesting that both of you go to private schools. To top that off, one of them is NYU. After visiting these forums I have found that if there is one school SDNers like to put down, it is NYU.

dude....i never attacked any school.....I just answered the OP's question, IS PENN WORTH THE EXTRA MONEY and i answered no.....i never said that Penn gives a bad education....

and about your interesting observation about me going to a private school...well I did not have the luxury of chosing a state school.....however, out of the 5 schools I interviewed at, Temple was the cheapest and best in my opinion...Im just giving advice to people who are fortunate to be able to choose a state school to highly consider it for monetary reasons...im just passing along the advice that I received from dentists and from dentaltown that going to the cheapest school is the most important factor cause you'll be paying for it after you graduate.....
 
honestpredent said:
However, I think Penn would provide one with a unique experience. It is an Ivy League school so you can feel good about that. You can tell your grandchildren and friends you attended an Ivy League school. Also, Penn is known for taking care of their students so you won't deal with a cheapskate administration and hassles that many other dental school students face. Finally, you have the opportunity to interact with a wide array of students that are intelligent and diverse. You won't be attending a state school where many of the students went to the same college and thus form dental cliques etc. Finally, if you decide to pursue an MBA or another degree, the Penn name will help one as opposed to attending a school like the University of Detroit Mercy.

I dont think I can agree with this.....a unique experience? I think dental school for anyone will be a unique experience, and the fact that its Ivy wont make a difference in gaining this "experience".

ANd about interacting with a variety of students who are intelligent and diverse.....the last time I checked, the stats for state schools were higher than Ivy League schools (Harvard is the exception as always) because of the sole reason that its the cheapest.

Look at the stats for Columbia/Penn dental......they aint gonna be anywhere near the stats for Columbia/Penn law. Why? Because the "smarter" higher stats people opt for cheaper state schools because they know that the name of the degree means didley squat for the dental profession......

And about being able to tell your grandchildren that you went to an Ivy League school....so what? U think they would care? Im sure my grandchildren would better appreciate the gold brick I'd buy them from the money I saved by NOT going to an Ivy League school.......
 
well why can columba/penn law school be "worth it" but the same dental schools are not? They can make better lawyers, but not better dentists?
 
For law school is like who you know and what big name school you went matters but for dentistry it doesn't matter. My uncle is a dentist and told me that in his 15 years of practising nobody has ever asked him(other than friends and family but that doesn't count) where did he graduate from??? His patients don't care where he went to school because it is totally irrelevant. He started his practice right out of school and never associated and patients don't care where he went to school as long as he is providing good services. If you are a lawyer people will be asking you all the time where you went to school and they will hire you based on that. If you look at lawyers salary the highest paid lawyer may be making as much as 50 Million per year and lowest paid lawyer may be making just 30K per year. That is not true for dentistry. They don't have extremes like that. Dentistry is totally different than most of other professions where school name matters, like law,med,engineering, even math and physics etc...
 
Dr.BadVibes said:
I dont think I can agree with this.....a unique experience? I think dental school for anyone will be a unique experience, and the fact that its Ivy wont make a difference in gaining this "experience".

ANd about interacting with a variety of students who are intelligent and diverse.....the last time I checked, the stats for state schools were higher than Ivy League schools (Harvard is the exception as always) because of the sole reason that its the cheapest.

Look at the stats for Columbia/Penn dental......they aint gonna be anywhere near the stats for Columbia/Penn law. Why? Because the "smarter" higher stats people opt for cheaper state schools because they know that the name of the degree means didley squat for the dental profession......

And about being able to tell your grandchildren that you went to an Ivy League school....so what? U think they would care? Im sure my grandchildren would better appreciate the gold brick I'd buy them from the money I saved by NOT going to an Ivy League school.......

I was just trying to provide a balanced opinion. Maybe for you and I, an Ivy league name means nothing for some others, they like the Ivy name and reputation. Try to keep an open mind about this. Also, you are wrong about the average stats. State and public school candidates have higher GPA's but lower DAT's than Columbia and Penn candidates. And DAT is a better indicator of intelligence than GPA because GPA is subjective depending upon the school and major of the student. GPA reflects a students work ethic more than it does intelligence. We all know that it is much tougher getting a 3.5 in engineering than it is in sociology. And yes, it is a unique experience. When you are on the campus of an Ivy League school, you are attending one of the oldest colleges in the United States that have a certain tradition attached. And the student body at Ivy league school will have much greater diversity both racially and geographically than a state school. Some students feel this diversity will enrich their dental schools experience while others simply don't care. So again, it depends on what you feel the money is worth. If you are trying to attend Penn to improve your chances of specializing or advancing your career, I think it's not worth it. If you value the things I mentioned above, then it might be worth it to you.

I think when most people ask this question, they are essentially asking will the Penn name benefit them in the job market, and the answer to that is not really. I agree with the others. Penn and Columbia dental is not like Penn and Columbia Law or Business in which their name can open up doors for you.
 
honestpredent said:
I was just trying to provide a balanced opinion. Maybe for you and I, an Ivy league name means nothing for some others, they like the Ivy name and reputation. Try to keep an open mind about this. Also, you are wrong about the average stats. State and public school candidates have higher GPA's but lower DAT's than Columbia and Penn candidates. And DAT is a better indicator of intelligence than GPA because GPA is subjective depending upon the school and major of the student. GPA reflects a students work ethic more than it does intelligence. We all know that it is much tougher getting a 3.5 in engineering than it is in sociology. And yes, it is a unique experience. When you are on the campus of an Ivy League school, you are attending one of the oldest colleges in the United States that have a certain tradition attached. And the student body at Ivy league school will have much greater diversity both racially and geographically than a state school. Some students feel this diversity will enrich their dental schools experience while others simply don't care. So again, it depends on what you feel the money is worth. If you are trying to attend Penn to improve your chances of specializing or advancing your career, I think it's not worth it. If you value the things I mentioned above, then it might be worth it to you.

I think when most people ask this question, they are essentially asking will the Penn name benefit them in the job market, and the answer to that is not really. I agree with the others. Penn and Columbia dental is not like Penn and Columbia Law or Business in which their name can open up doors for you.

I understand what you are trying to say, but you are giving the impression that you can only get this type of experience at an Ivy League school and I dont agree at all. Goto any urban school and they will have all the diversity you want. Take Temple for instance (I dont have a hard-on for Temple, it is just the school I know the most about).....Temple's class is extremely diverse and it is the 2nd oldest dental school in the US.....so you get all the things you listed that an Ivy LEague school has, but at a fraction of the cost. Also, other state schools like Indiana, UCLA will have A LOT of diversity as well at a fraction of the cost of Penn/Columbia........please dont make it seem that this is found only at the Ivy....
 
Dr.BadVibes said:
Look at the stats for Columbia/Penn dental......they aint gonna be anywhere near the stats for Columbia/Penn law. Why? Because the "smarter" higher stats people opt for cheaper state schools because they know that the name of the degree means didley squat for the dental profession......
What do you mean by "smarter"? If you meant, higher GPA's or DAT scores, you're wrong. Look at ADEA's dental school guide. For one thing, Columbia has higher average DAT than Stony Brook.
 
aileen said:
What do you mean by "smarter"? If you meant, higher GPA's or DAT scores, you're wrong. Look at ADEA's dental school guide. For one thing, Columbia has higher average DAT than Stony Brook.

Look, I dont want to get into a whole debate on what is the better indicator of intelligence.......if you think its the DAT, fine with me......the point i was trying to show is that the caliber of students at an Ivy League school is not much different than the calibre of students at a state school......
 
To the original poster....

If you like your state d-school and get in, then I don't think the 70,000/year at Penn is worth it for you. If you HAVE a choice and you like your state school, then why not go for the less expensive alternative?

BUT...since you have to ask this question, I'm sure you're remotely (?)interested in Penn. It might be worthwhile to visit the school (if you haven't already) and see if it's a place you would want to even go and take out a loan for. (Or you can just apply/see if you get an interview & then visit). I fell in love with Penn when I visited. Out of all of the interviews/schools that I went to, it was the only place that I felt comfortable at, and I could actually see myself there for the next 4(+) years.

The choice is yours (obviously). 🙂 We're all just trying to help by giving you our own perspective on things. Good luck.
 
Baby Kuma said:
To the original poster....

If you like your state d-school and get in, then I don't think the 70,000/year at Penn is worth it for you. If you HAVE a choice and you like your state school, then why not go for the less expensive alternative?

BUT...since you have to ask this question, I'm sure you're remotely (?)interested in Penn. It might be worthwhile to visit the school (if you haven't already) and see if it's a place you would want to even go and take out a loan for. (Or you can just apply/see if you get an interview & then visit). I fell in love with Penn when I visited. Out of all of the interviews/schools that I went to, it was the only place that I felt comfortable at, and I could actually see myself there for the next 4(+) years.

The choice is yours (obviously). 🙂 We're all just trying to help by giving you our own perspective on things. Good luck.

I agree. I think this thread has gone way off topic.

To the OP-If you don't mind my asking, what appeals to you so much about Penn?
 
Dr.BadVibes said:
I understand what you are trying to say, but you are giving the impression that you can only get this type of experience at an Ivy League school and I dont agree at all. Goto any urban school and they will have all the diversity you want. Take Temple for instance (I dont have a hard-on for Temple, it is just the school I know the most about).....Temple's class is extremely diverse and it is the 2nd oldest dental school in the US.....so you get all the things you listed that an Ivy LEague school has, but at a fraction of the cost. Also, other state schools like Indiana, UCLA will have A LOT of diversity as well at a fraction of the cost of Penn/Columbia........please dont make it seem that this is found only at the Ivy....

All I said was that Penn and Columbia would afford one unique aspects that other schools won't match. At the same time, other schools will afford one aspects that Penn and Columbia can't match. Let's be honest, you aren't going to get the same type of experience at Penn that you would get at Indiana and vice versa. Indiana is not as diverse as Penn or Columbia for one thing so let's not pretend it is. It doesn't mean Indiana is a worse school but you would be lying if you suggested that it contained the same level of diversity. And UCLA is a public school that is extremely difficult if not impossible for a non-California resident to get into. UCLA is probably the second hardest dental school to get into behind Harvard. If someone got into UCLA, I doubt in most cases that a student would elect to go to Penn. Ivy league schools are Ivy league schools. That's the bottom line. Going to Temple is not the same as going to Penn as far as tradition and history is concerned. I think Temple is much better clinical school if not one of the best clinical schools in the country. But to suggest that one will get the same experience at Temple as they would at Penn and vice versa is a bit misleading. Penn is in a much better part of Philadephia with better facilities, better housing, and a smaller class. Don't suggest that Temple can even match Penn in this regard because it can't. I interviewed at both schools and they don't compare in that department. I'm not suggesting one is better than the other but even most Temple grads will accept that Penn has a better name but Temple will provide them with far better clinical skills. If I wanted to specialize in endodontistry, I would choose to attend Temple because of the large volume of clinical experience they afford their students. Each school has something to offer. And sorry but the truth is if Penn and Columbia and other Ivy league schools didn't have something unique to offer then people wouldn't strive to attend there. Likewise, if Temple had nothing to offer then people wouldn't strive to go to Temple either. It seems like you have an agenda to put down Ivy league schools at all costs. You make it seem like Penn has absolutely nothing to offer which is bogus. How would you feel if someone said that about Temple? That too would be a bogus argument.
 
yep, 70K is a whole lot. Is it worth it to me, a current PENN student? Well, let me look in retrospect:

1.) I've met some of the most talented kids/ professors.
2.) professors see me eye to eye, not look down on me, they work with me, not against me.
3.) The school is on main campus.
4.) Out of 50 top dentists in the country, PENN has 13 of them on their faculty.

Don't get me wrong, 70k is a lot, (its more like 50 grand a year, since they tabulate a lot of other crap which i don't even touch).

I made a wise decision, yeah its gonna be hard at the beginning to pay back the experience and my happiness in coming here was well worth it. If you think i came here cuz it was an Ivy, no way. Honestly, when i began to apply to dental schools i didn't even know that it was.

its the same, some graduate at 40 from dental school, some graduate at 24; some graduate w/ 0 debt and some with 500K of debt. Everyone has unique circumstances.

DesiDentist
 
DesiDentist said:
yep, 70K is a whole lot. Is it worth it to me, a current PENN student? Well, let me look in retrospect:

1.) I've met some of the most talented kids/ professors.
2.) professors see me eye to eye, not look down on me, they work with me, not against me.
3.) The school is on main campus.
4.) Out of 50 top dentists in the country, PENN has 13 of them on their faculty.

Don't get me wrong, 70k is a lot, (its more like 50 grand a year, since they tabulate a lot of other crap which i don't even touch).

I made a wise decision, yeah its gonna be hard at the beginning to pay back the experience and my happiness in coming here was well worth it. If you think i came here cuz it was an Ivy, no way. Honestly, when i began to apply to dental schools i didn't even know that it was.

its the same, some graduate at 40 from dental school, some graduate at 24; some graduate w/ 0 debt and some with 500K of debt. Everyone has unique circumstances.

DesiDentist


The top 50 dentists in the US? Care to explain
 
honestpredent said:
The top 50 dentists in the US? Care to explain

There is a new publication out that ranks dentists... I haven't found the ranked listing of them but you can search through them and see if yours matches.

Link to website
 
marshall said:
There is a new publication out that ranks dentists... I haven't found the ranked listing of them but you can search through them and see if yours matches.

Link to website

It sounds like a popularity contest to me. It decided by other dentists. I have seen these type of lists before. Usually, the most popular dentsits all vote for one another in a very high school cliquish type of manner. Usually, the older and more established dentists make these lists because they have enough time networking and building relationships with their fellow dentists locally.
 
Well to respond along with Desi Dentist I am another Penn student who had to choose between Indiana (my state school), Temple, Minnesota, and other schools had I gone to the rest of the interviews. I also had a $150,000 difference between my state school and Penn, so why did I choose Penn?

Well like some of the other posters stated, Penn has higher GPA, DAT, etc scores. I knew 35% of the class going into Indiana, and I can tell you, there is a def differnce between the caliber of students that I interact with here vs my state school. The diversity of Philly as well of the student body is also at least 3 times greater if not more. That alone is an experience I think that makes it worth it.

Like Desi said, regradless of how these polls are run, 13 faculty got on the list for best teachers/dentists, they must be doing something right to get on those lists, if its networking, are actually good teacher, whatever. And that is one thing tht is huge in Ivy league schools, as well as some other schools such as USC, the networking, the schools take care of you. The IVy league is basically a club, so when you are looking for a job, say an associateship you know you will at least be heavily favored.

Some people dont mind paying extra to drive a BMW or a Mercedes. Id say part of that applies here; what do you get for getting a mercedes, the name, the service, the technology, and luxury. Well Penn will def give a lot of those things, obvioulsy the Ivy League name, as well as luxury as it is a beautiful school, 10X what Indiana was. Technology such as Dent sim, which obviously other schools have, but my state school wont have it for another 5 years. The name although 95% of your patients wont care is def something you can advertise (and I have seen a dentist in Indiana advertise that he went to the Prestigous Ivy League Penn) and Im sure it might get you a few patients over the years you are practicing. Getting even 4 patients (over their lifetime, who could then get you more patients through word of mouth) over say the 20 years you are practicing for going to an Ivy league will def make up that $150,000 real fast.

Finally Like another poster said it really depends on what you want to do witih your degree, I want to specialize, and Penn has some of the highest specialization rates in the country. Another poster stated that only the OMS stats were impressive, Id have tto disagree, the OMS stats are, and so are the ortho stats (which is what I want to do), I dont know about the rest. But I dont see any other or at least very few schools besides schools like Harvard, USC and Columbia getting 15 people in ortho and 12 in OMS. True more people are applying, but they also have a better shot, becuase they have higher board scores and people know the caliber of Penn students with so many getting in. My state school had 5 out of 10 get in the year I decided on Penn we had 15 out of 18, If I am in any of those extra ten, then the $150,000 will be made uo in pretty much one year.

So it really comes down to what you want to do, just want to do general? Id say there are probably more clincially oriented schools out there instead of Penn, want an of the other stuff I stated above, then maybe Penn is a better chioce? Or perhaps get another degree such as a business one? Penn actually will pay for the tuition if you deicde to do any program while you are in dental school, as long as you can justify how it will help you in dentistry.
 
scandalousj said:
The IVy league is basically a club, so when you are looking for a job, say an associateship you know you will at least be heavily favored.


If the hiring dentist went to Penn, then yes, you will be "heavily favored" for the associateship over me, the Buffalo graduate. If the hiring dentist went to UMDNJ, it isn't going to matter where either of us went to school; more important factors in his decision will be "Can this dentist produce?" and "Will he be an asset to my practice?" rather than "What is the name of the school on this guy's diploma when we hang it in the office?"
 
did anyone mention that everyone from temple's class that just graduated and applied to a post-grad program got accepted?...
 
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