A quantitative discussion of the URM disparity

[dokein]

I will say that the comparison to Asians that have come here and started from scratch to African Americans is a faulty one that is easily made. Any course in sociology about race development in the US will point out that the disparity between the level of education and resources of Asians coming to the US was vastly different from the level of education and resources of Africans. Furthermore, because there was no real means for education to reliably improve for African Americans, the base level an African American would receive growing up in the US is below that that an Asian brings.

This is an absolutely true statement, which is why it is best to compare African immigrants (highest-educated subgroup in the U.S.) and Asian immigrants. Unfortunately the data are not available for direct comparison, but the distribution of black accepted student MCAT scores does not appear obviously bimodal.

As for why I brought it up, I was not happy with URM consideration in general but in the past few months I have begun to understand it more (thanks to discussion with some members of SDN in private message) and come to accept, and even partially agree with, it. In the past week, however, I learned there exists a six point disparity in MCAT scores, which just seems like an enormous gap. Six points on the MCAT is not at all trivial and when you consider the population sizes, there appears to be huge racial bias involved.

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[dweji16]

I personally do not have any problems with URM being given a chance in terms of admissions. I think it helps keep things in check and even. And patients always feel more comfortable with a doctor of their same ethnicity, particularly minorities. And since currently, the greatest health disparities are amongs African-Americans and Latinos/Latinas, it would be very beneficial to have more physicians of those races to help out these communities.

But, I guess as an Asian American, I am worried about what happens when there are Asian Americans with low numbers. Because they're Asian and expected to have perfect numbers, would it be harder for them to be given some leniency?

And yes, I am that Asian American with low numbers, so I am quite quite worried... and everyone around me keeps saying Asians need to have the best numbers or won't even get looked at.. making me paranoid.

I will be applying this coming cycle if my MCAT falls through, and want to go to a school that focuses on healthcare in low socioeconomic communities (so I can utilize my public health training). I know that the HBCUs do so, and would like a shot at them, but was told that because I'm Asian, it will be impossible too.. don't know how much truth is in this though.. sigh.

 

[dokein]

But, I guess as an Asian American, I am worried about what happens when there are Asian Americans with low numbers. Because they're Asian and expected to have perfect numbers, would it be harder for them to be given some leniency?

Do you have significant activities in low-income/underserved areas? If so it is likely that you will get some form of advantage at schools geared more towards serving those areas (e.g. Drew at UCLA).

Without taking activities into account,

At a 3.60-3.79 and MCAT of 27-29, 56.7% of Asians are accepted and 60.8% of Whites are accepted (4% difference).

At a 3.40-3.59 and MCAT of 27-29, 42.9% of Asians are accepted and 45.9% of Whites are accepted (3% difference).

It is likely that you will experience a little bit harder of an application cycle, but most of whether you will get in or not is depenedent on you.

 

[dweji16]

Do you have significant activities in low-income/underserved areas? If so it is likely that you will get some form of advantage at schools geared more towards serving those areas (e.g. Drew at UCLA).

Without taking activities into account,

At a 3.60-3.79 and MCAT of 27-29, 56.7% of Asians are accepted and 60.8% of Whites are accepted (4% difference).

At a 3.40-3.59 and MCAT of 27-29, 42.9% of Asians are accepted and 45.9% of Whites are accepted (3% difference).

It is likely that you will experience a little bit harder of an application cycle, but most of whether you will get in or not is depenedent on you.

Mmm... well, I did an MPH because I wanted to do work in underserved areas. My eventual goal is specifically to be a pediatric obesity specialist for kids from low socioeconomic groups. And currently, I'm doing research on making accessible cervical cancer treatment and detection to low income women of Latin-American and African American descent. I also go to public schools around town where it's mostly URMs and talk to them about entering the health field and helping out their own communities by doing public health. I also performed music in many poor urban areas for many disadvantaged children and patients.

So I do have a very strong interest in doing work in underserved areas. Just worried that I wont have a chance at showing adcoms that I do because I will be cut out for being an Asian with low numbers.

And my numbers are lower than the abovementioned.. sigh. Sadness.

 

[WhizoMD]

Not all URMs have these three factors. An enormous proportion of black people in medical school are African-Americans (recently immigrated from Africa) rather than Afro-Americans (I do not have a citation but a lot of people would agree with this).

I wouldn't agree that an enormous proportion of blacks in med schools are recently immigrated Africans. Using my school + affiliated med school as an example:
my school is is one of the most diverse state schools in my immigrant heavy state, and the # of recently immigrated African premeds is 0, also the number of recently immigrated Africans in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd years at the med school is 0. I've also been in contact with quite a few premeds at other schools in the state, and I have yet to encounter a recently immigrated African among them.

As for why I brought it up, I was not happy with URM consideration in general but in the past few months I have begun to understand it more (thanks to discussion with some members of SDN in private message) and come to accept, and even partially agree with, it. In the past week, however, I learned there exists a six point disparity in MCAT scores, which just seems like an enormous gap. Six points on the MCAT is not at all trivial and when you consider the population sizes, there appears to be huge racial bias involved.

ok, so you acknowledge that the disparity exists; now you should ask yourself why it exists. Like I said before, the numbers you quoted represent an average of the best among the respective populations (since they were accepted). With this in mind, why do you think the disparity exists between the applicant pools.

 

[FluffyRabbit]

Also, MCAT/GPA is not a direct measure of future success, as much as we'd all like to think it is. You'll see high GPA/MCAT students struggle in med school and you'll see low GPA/MCAT students excel. The idea behind people coming from hardships explains a lot. And it's not just URMs who catch a break from coming from an underpriveleged background -- it was a large reason why I was accepted, I imagine.

That's not the point. MCAT correlates with performance on the USMLE. Just because the correlation is less than 1 doesn't mean it's not there.

One thing you might not consider is how this system negatively impacts URMs. We had a lecture from an african american physician not long ago where she described patients speaking in Spanish (they assumed she couldn't speak spanish, but she can) saying they didn't want the black doctor because she wasn't as good as a white doctor. You'll find yourself looking at your classmates this same way. You'll assume they had a lower GPA and MCAT than most people and that they were just accepted because they were URMs. There is absolutely no way to know that, and it's extremely unfair to them to assume that they're not as deserving to be there as you are.

I agree with this. I feel like there is likely to be more pressure on URMs in medical school to prove to that they deserve to be there and weren't admitted solely on the basis of their skin color.

Finally, your last statement in bold... I'm sure all 4000+ people "not accepted as a direct result of them not being URM" had stellar ECs, life stories, presented themselves on interviews, blah blah blah. Riiight. That's quite a bold conclusion to come to.

The comparison here fixes all other variables and considers only numbers. Unless you believe people with high stats naturally interview worse, have less interesting life experiences, and have weaker ECs, the analysis proves what we already know - that URMs are getting accepted with lower numbers than non-URMs.

Note that there is no check-mark for "poor immigrants," and I have been directly told by multiple admissions committee members that Asian immigration experiences are typically laughed at and not valued. However, anecdote does not equal data, so whether disadvantaged is equally addressed between ethnic groups cannot be studied.

It is unfortunate that this is happening, but I think its because in recent years Asian immigrants often come for graduate education, or to do jobs with relatively good incomes and get H1B visas as opposed to coming off a boat with no worldly posessions to work as an unskilled laborer.

I personally do not have any problems with URM being given a chance in terms of admissions. I think it helps keep things in check and even. And patients always feel more comfortable with a doctor of their same ethnicity, particularly minorities. And since currently, the greatest health disparities are amongs African-Americans and Latinos/Latinas, it would be very beneficial to have more physicians of those races to help out these communities.

But, I guess as an Asian American, I am worried about what happens when there are Asian Americans with low numbers. Because they're Asian and expected to have perfect numbers, would it be harder for them to be given some leniency?

And yes, I am that Asian American with low numbers, so I am quite quite worried... and everyone around me keeps saying Asians need to have the best numbers or won't even get looked at.. making me paranoid.

I will be applying this coming cycle if my MCAT falls through, and want to go to a school that focuses on healthcare in low socioeconomic communities (so I can utilize my public health training). I know that the HBCUs do so, and would like a shot at them, but was told that because I'm Asian, it will be impossible too.. don't know how much truth is in this though.. sigh.

Unfortunately as you have seen, Asians tend to need to outscore other students to be admitted because they are overrepresented as it is. There are programs for taking care of disadvantaged communities, but you will still not receive the same amount of forgiveness if your numbers are actually low (the definition of low numbers is pretty warped on SDN). Good luck though.

 

[dokein]

Mmm... well, I did an MPH because I wanted to do work in underserved areas. My eventual goal is specifically to be a pediatric obesity specialist for kids from low socioeconomic groups. And currently, I'm doing research on making accessible cervical cancer treatment and detection to low income women of Latin-American and African American descent. I also go to public schools around town where it's mostly URMs and talk to them about entering the health field and helping out their own communities by doing public health. I also performed music in many poor urban areas for many disadvantaged children and patients.

So I do have a very strong interest in doing work in underserved areas. Just worried that I wont have a chance at showing adcoms that I do because I will be cut out for being an Asian with low numbers.

And my numbers are lower than the abovementioned.. sigh. Sadness.

Lower than that the chances drop off steeply independent of your intentions, without truly extraordinary ECs.

It is inaccurate to say that this is because you are Asian, because your numbers would be very low relative to the grand mean of all applicants. It is more accurate to say that this is because you are not within a standard benefit-receiving group in the current system.

 

[Gifted Hands]

That's not the point. MCAT correlates with performance on the USMLE. Just because the correlation is less than 1 doesn't mean it's not there.

why? because you say so? I have never seen any valid evidence of this.


I think what premeds fail to realize is that most schools have a threshold for MCAT and it is not a 30. It's much lower. 30 is just the national average. Once you pass the threshold, you are competent to do well in medical school. A multiple choice exam about genetic crosses and doppler radar /= medical school. I don't see large numbers of URM medical students flunking out so what's the worry? There are plenty of URM (and non-URM) med students that got in with low numbers and do very well on the USMLE.

Stop focusing on what you don't understand and what you can't control. The only thing standing in your way is YOU.

 

[dokein]

I wouldn't agree that an enormous proportion of blacks in med schools are recently immigrated Africans. Using my school + affiliated med school as an example:

ok, so you acknowledge that the disparity exists; now you should ask yourself why it exists. Like I said before, the numbers you quoted represent an average of the best among the respective populations (since they were accepted). With this in mind, why do you think the disparity exists between the applicant pools.

See my previous post "As a proportion of the population, few URMs have the goal of being a doctor, fewer URMs understand what it takes to become a doctor (due to the environment they grow up in), and even fewer URMs have the resources necessary to do well (educational systems, culture's perceived value of education)."

As for the first disagreement, I do not have numbers and only anecdotal experiences similar to yours. No point in arguing about that.

 

[dokein]

why? because you say so? I have never seen any valid evidence of this.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12377692?dopt=AbstractPlus

Biological sciences r=.553
Physical sciences r=.491
Verbal reasoning r=.397

where 0<r<1

This means that if you factor out biological science scores from the correlation between BS:USMLE, there is a 30% reduction in the variation of the USMLE, or, that biological science scores explains 30% of the USMLE score.

 

[armybound]

why? because you say so? I have never seen any valid evidence of this.


I think what premeds fail to realize is that most schools have a threshold for MCAT and it is not a 30. It's much lower. 30 is just the national average. Once you pass the threshold, you are competent to do well in medical school. A multiple choice exam about genetic crosses and doppler radar /= medical school. I don't see large numbers of URM medical students flunking out so what's the worry? There are plenty of URM (and non-URM) med students that got in with low numbers and do very well on the USMLE.

Stop focusing on what you don't understand and what you can't control. The only thing standing in your way is YOU.

As with the MCAT, I think people are somehow assuming that higher STEP score = better doctor. It's simply not the case.

High numbers does not make a better doctor. If you can pass the step, you're competent enough to be a physician, according to the powers that be. That's good enough for me, and it should be good enough for pre-meds as well.

 

[He2]

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[He2]

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[armybound]

you know, back in the 30's, the top schools had quotas on the Jewish , for sake of making sure they were not over-represented. Its widely regarded as racist now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_quota

use this. discuss.

An intentional cap on one race is not the same as an unintentional limit placed on a combined pool of other races because there is a desire to boost the representation of a different race.

 

[dokein]

An intentional cap on one race is not the same as an unintentional limit placed on a combined pool of other races because there is a desire to boost the representation of a different race.

The desire in capping Jewish populations was based on boosting the representation of non-Jewish populations.

I would say inexact limit is not the same as unintentional limit. I agree that there is a difference between the two examples.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

I have a couple things I think about this issue-
Why can't the leeway for lower scores/GPAs be given based on socioeconomic/disadvantaged status ALONE regardless of race? I totally see the point of giving a second look to those with lower scores/grades who are very poor or have not had the advantages we have. The amount of money I've spent on prep courses, books to study MCAT (not to mention college, etc.) is ridiculous, and someone who can't afford that absolutely does not have the same chance to get as good a score and know what to expect. In this regard I think anyone who is disadvantaged deserves the leeway. But that should be the only determinant.

Because as most people on here have already claimed, almost all minority patients are raging racists...they'll only listen to another minority. Quality of doctor does not matter to them, they care only that the physician has the same colored skin.

 

[FluffyRabbit]

As with the MCAT, I think people are somehow assuming that higher STEP score = better doctor. It's simply not the case.

High numbers does not make a better doctor. If you can pass the step, you're competent enough to be a physician, according to the powers that be. That's good enough for me, and it should be good enough for pre-meds as well.

True, an individual with a higher Step 1 score may not be a better doctor than another with a lower score. Again, that's not really the point. Bill Gates has more money than me and he didn't finish college. But demographically speaking, college graduates have better incomes than those that don't have a bachelor's degree.

There are many aspects of being a good doctor, ranging from bedside manner, surgical skill, scientific knowledge, diligence, and so on. Again, unless doctors that have more scientific knowledge and understanding (which is what the Step 1 tests) are less empathetic, take a large sample and it's likely that the doctors with higher step scores are in fact "better".

Passing the step implies you can practice because you'll do more good than harm, it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. There is a difference between getting a 190 and a 240, and that's why residency directors look at that score. "Good enough" may be adequate, but if I can have "better", I'm going to take it.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12377692?dopt=AbstractPlus

Biological sciences r=.553
Physical sciences r=.491
Verbal reasoning r=.397

where 0<r<1

This means that if you factor out biological science scores from the correlation between BS:USMLE, there is a 30% reduction in the variation of the USMLE, or, that biological science scores explains 30% of the USMLE score.

Shocking

You'd have to be terribly slow to believe that the ability to learn and utilize scientific principles, and perform well when tested on them, would not translate into success in medical school. It's just plain common sense, i can't believe people argued you on it.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

True, an individual with a higher Step 1 score may not be a better doctor than another with a lower score. Again, that's not really the point. Bill Gates has more money than me and he didn't finish college. But demographically speaking, college graduates have better incomes than those that don't have a bachelor's degree.

There are many aspects of being a good doctor, ranging from bedside manner, surgical skill, scientific knowledge, diligence, and so on. Again, unless doctors that have more scientific knowledge and understanding (which is what the Step 1 tests) are less empathetic, take a large sample and it's likely that the doctors with higher step scores are in fact "better".

Passing the step implies you can practice because you'll do more good than harm, it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. There is a difference between getting a 190 and a 240, and that's why residency directors look at that score. "Good enough" may be adequate, but if I can have "better", I'm going to take it.

Completely agreed. If you're going to be my doctor (especially my surgeon), i'd prefer an extremely high step score. I'll see a low step score doc when i need a prescription for my cold or need help with a broken toe, but nothing too serious.

 

[armybound]

Shocking

You'd have to be terribly slow to believe that the ability to learn and utilize scientific principles, and perform well when tested on them, would not translate into success in medical school. It's just plain common sense, i can't believe people argued you on it.

So what MCAT score makes you successful in medical school?

The point is that you need to pass the STEP. You don't need to score in the top 10% of all test takers. Just because someone has a 20 doesn't mean they can't pass the STEP, nor does a 35 guarantee that you will pass it.

Completely agreed. If you're going to be my doctor (especially my surgeon), i'd prefer an extremely high step score. I'll see a low step score doc when i need a prescription for my cold or need help with a broken toe, but nothing too serious.

So you know the STEP scores of all of your physicians, eh?

I'm curious, though, why would you want your surgeon to score highly on a test that isn't mainly of anatomy and not at all of surgical technique?

 

[dokein]

So what MCAT score makes you successful in medical school?

The point is that you need to pass the STEP. You don't need to score in the top 10% of all test takers. Just because someone has a 20 doesn't mean they can't pass the STEP, nor does a 35 guarantee that you will pass it.

This is a nonsensical argument. You're using individual exceptions to argue against population trends.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

So what MCAT score makes you successful in medical school?

The point is that you need to pass the STEP. You don't need to score in the top 10% of all test takers. Just because someone has a 20 doesn't mean they can't pass the STEP, nor does a 35 guarantee that you will pass it.

So you know the STEP scores of all of your physicians, eh?

I don't know what the minimum MCAT score is that typically translates into a passing score on the USMLE. the numbers are out there, but i'm not looking them up.

I'm saying that kickin *** on the MCAT will mean you'll more than likely kick *** on the USMLE, as shown in the stats posted. I'm sure each point scored higher on the MCAT correlates to an average amount of increase on the USMLE.

I don't know the step scores of all the physicians i've seen, but i'm not overly concerned unless its important. And the one time it did matter, my surgeon was an asian dude that graduated from HMS . It helps put your mind at ease when you know the person with your life in their hands isn't just barely over the minimum standards.

 

[NoMoreAMCAS]

This is a nonsensical argument. You're using individual exceptions to argue against population trends.

This is also true, there will always be individuals that stray from the pack. But i'd rather look at the averages.

 

[LizzyM]

Plot MCAT on the x axis and proportion of medical students who graduate within 4 years on the y axis. There is a steep curve that flattens out at about 26 (!) and dips slightly for the very highest scores (I suspect a small proportion of that group take a year off to do research & further buff their medical school credentials).

Twenty - six ! There are far more applicants at 26 or better than there are seats. While we want strong students and there are plenty to choose from, we can take a chance with lower stats knowing that they are likely to complete the degree. In some cases, the life experience, gpa, other degrees, etc are such that we decide to take a chance.

An enormous proportion of black people in medical school are African-Americans (recently immigrated from Africa) rather than Afro-Americans (I do not have a citation but a lot of people would agree with this). As a group, they are the most educated ethnic subgroup in America (according to Wikipedia) and some of them benefit from association with URM populations without the concomitant disadvantages.

Have you ever heard of "driving while black?" Have you ever heard of other discrimination heaped upon blacks in the US? If not, you need to get to know more black folks.

 

[Ischemic]

****ing premeds. You can argue, rant and bitch till you and nothing is gonna change. Is the system perfect? No. Can it use improvement? Yes. But is this system working? Yes. This is like arguing about the BCS Football championship and how a playoff would be better to reduce the number of schools feeling left out. No matter where you make a cutoff, there will always be someone who will feel slighted. Widen the range of acceptable MCAT/GPAs? People just below that cutoff will complain. Unless you accept everyone who applies to med school you ain't solving the problem. Let's this some more cause I could use a good laugh and break from studying pelvic gross anatomy.

 

[dweji16]

Plot MCAT on the x axis and proportion of medical students who graduate within 4 years on the y axis. There is a steep curve that flattens out at about 26 (!) and dips slightly for the very highest scores (I suspect a small proportion of that group take a year off to do research & further buff their medical school credentials).

Twenty - six ! There are far more applicants at 26 or better than there are seats. While we want strong students and there are plenty to choose from, we can take a chance with lower stats knowing that they are likely to complete the degree. In some cases, the life experience, gpa, other degrees, etc are such that we decide to take a chance.



Have you ever heard of "driving while black?" Have you ever heard of other discrimination heaped upon blacks in the US? If not, you need to get to know more black folks.

What about low GPA, but with good life experiences, other degrees and possibly high MCAT . Chance possibly taken there? Because then I might start to see a teeny bit of hope in this unfathomably deep, dark, endless tunnel that is called Medical School Admissions.

 

[LizzyM]

What about low GPA, but with good life experiences, other degrees and possibly high MCAT . Chance possibly taken there? Because then I might start to see a teeny bit of hope in this unfathomably deep, dark, endless tunnel that is called Medical School Admissions.

The point is that MCAT correlates with successful completion of medical school. If you have a high MCAT we're not "taking a chance", data indicate that you have a good chance of not flunking out. That said, sometimes it is just "luck of the draw" that your personal statement and experiences touch someone and make them push your application forward.

 

[morning]

Nativism and intolerance among segments of the white Protestant population were aimed at both Eastern European Jews and Southern European Catholics. In higher education, Jews were particularly resented. By 1919, about 80% of the students at New York's Hunter and City colleges were Jews, and 40% at Columbia. Jews at Harvard tripled to 21% of the freshman class in 1922 from about 7% in 1900. Ivy League Jews won a disproportionate share of academic prizes and election to Phi Beta Kappa but were widely regarded as competitive, eager to excel academically and less interested in extra-curricular activities such as organized sports. Non-Jews accused them of being clannish, socially unskilled and either unwilling or unable to“fit in.”






In 1922, Harvard's president, A. Lawrence Lowell, proposed a quota on the number of Jews gaining admission to the university. Lowell was convinced that Harvard could only survive if the majority of its students came from old American stock.
Lowell argued that cutting the number of Jews at Harvard to a maximum of 15% would be good for the Jews, because limits would prevent further anti-Semitism. Lowell reasoned, “The anti-Semitic feeling among the students is increasing, and it grows in proportion to the increase in the number of Jews. If their number should become 40% of the student body, the race feeling would become intense.”


---------------
gotta make sure we have a diverse educational experience

Um, I'm pretty sure black people were also "capped" in terms of how many they'd let into medical school (0?) so by your logic, this is evidence that having 7% of your medical school class be composed of black people is RACISM.

 

[bookfreak89]

I wouldn't agree that an enormous proportion of blacks in med schools are recently immigrated Africans. Using my school + affiliated med school as an example:
my school is is one of the most diverse state schools in my immigrant heavy state, and the # of recently immigrated African premeds is 0, also the number of recently immigrated Africans in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd years at the med school is 0. I've also been in contact with quite a few premeds at other schools in the state, and I have yet to encounter a recently immigrated African among them.


ok, so you acknowledge that the disparity exists; now you should ask yourself why it exists. Like I said before, the numbers you quoted represent an average of the best among the respective populations (since they were accepted). With this in mind, why do you think the disparity exists between the applicant pools.

Beware. Random ramblings/anecdotal information ahead.

What state are you from? They may not be African immigrants, but children of African immigrants (or 1st generation African-Americans).

This is the mantra of African immigrants (which they subsequently tell their children): "When you go to college (and you WILL go to college), you will either do pre-med/pre-law/or some type of engineering, or just get some sort of post-undergrad degree, a masters or something (particularly MBA), then go work for a company."

At my university, the student body is ~8% black. However, I would say a little bit more than half of the black students are 1st generation African/Carib immigrants. Every single African student on this campus is premed/prelaw (actually there is one prelaw; premed --> prelaw, lol). Their majors may vary but they are still premed. Some one (a grad student at Duke) also told me that one of the undergraduate classes at Duke (class of 2009, 2010, etc.), their black population was 50% Nigerian females. Take that for what you will.

Anyways, my point is dokein is correct when he says that a large number (may/may not be the majority) of black premeds are either African immigrants (not too likely, but it happens) or 1st generation African-Americans (majority). Now whether or not they are all well-off...that is a different story. There are some, but definitely not all.

 

[bookfreak89]

Completely agreed. If you're going to be my doctor (especially my surgeon), i'd prefer an extremely high step score. I'll see a low step score doc when i need a prescription for my cold or need help with a broken toe, but nothing too serious.

And how the hell would you have access to this information? Is it on their name tags?

Andrew Johnson, M.D.
Btw, STEP I Score = 270 (b*tches)

Don't think so.

 

[WhizoMD]

Beware. Random ramblings/anecdotal information ahead.

What state are you from? They may not be African immigrants, but children of African immigrants (or 1st generation African-Americans).

This is the mantra of African immigrants (which they subsequently tell their children): "When you go to college (and you WILL go to college), you will either do pre-med/pre-law/or some type of engineering, or just get some sort of post-undergrad degree, a masters or something (particularly MBA), then go work for a company."

At my university, the student body is ~8% black. However, I would say a little bit more than half of the black students are 1st generation African/Carib immigrants. Every single African student on this campus is premed/prelaw (actually there is one prelaw; premed --> prelaw, lol). Their majors may vary but they are still premed. Some one (a grad student at Duke) also told me that one of the undergraduate classes at Duke (class of 2009, 2010, etc.), their black population was 50% Nigerian females. Take that for what you will.

Anyways, my point is dokein is correct when he says that a large number (may/may not be the majority) of black premeds are either African immigrants (not too likely, but it happens) or 1st generation African-Americans (majority). Now whether or not they are all well-off...that is a different story. There are some, but definitely not all.

I agree with you on this, I'm second generation carib. myself, but dokein was talking about recently immigrated Africans. I don't consider first/second generation recent. First/second generation is enough to fully experience what it means to be black in this country IMO.

 

[morning]

Beware. Random ramblings/anecdotal information ahead.

What state are you from? They may not be African immigrants, but children of African immigrants (or 1st generation African-Americans).

This is the mantra of African immigrants (which they subsequently tell their children): "When you go to college (and you WILL go to college), you will either do pre-med/pre-law/or some type of engineering, or just get some sort of post-undergrad degree, a masters or something (particularly MBA), then go work for a company."

At my university, the student body is ~8% black. However, I would say a little bit more than half of the black students are 1st generation African/Carib immigrants. Every single African student on this campus is premed/prelaw (actually there is one prelaw; premed --> prelaw, lol). Their majors may vary but they are still premed. Some one (a grad student at Duke) also told me that one of the undergraduate classes at Duke (class of 2009, 2010, etc.), their black population was 50% Nigerian females. Take that for what you will.

Anyways, my point is dokein is correct when he says that a large number (may/may not be the majority) of black premeds are either African immigrants (not too likely, but it happens) or 1st generation African-Americans (majority). Now whether or not they are all well-off...that is a different story. There are some, but definitely not all.

This is very, very true. A lot of people don't realize it but certain African countries (believe it or not, Africa is not one monolithic country!) produce "model minorities" (not a phrase I like to use.) Particularly West African countries like Nigeria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority#Black_Immigrants_from_Africa

I do believe I read (I may be wrong here) that over 50% of Harvard's black undergraduates are immigrants or from immigrant families.

Obviously that does fuel people who want to shove it in the face of entrenched African-Americans ("these black people could succeed, why can't you?!"), but it goes back to what LizzyM said...bigots don't care where a black person comes from, all black people, indeed all of Africa, is exactly the same to them. These URM provisions are there for many reasons, and two of those reasons are to guard against unconscious bigotry behind the adcom desks and to infuse culturally sensitive doctors into a culturally sensitive profession.

 

[Skyrockavatar]

Have any of you ever seen your friend get shot at? Do you live somewhere that the sound of a gunshot doesn't even get your attention? "Someone is getting shot! Oh well".

Look guys, people are different and truly do come from all walks of life. I've done plenty mission trips and I can tell you that in parts of the world, there is no electricity and no hospital for hundreds of miles and when there is, patients are everywhere. You must be careful to not step on one.

Now, I know for sure that most of you will NEVER want to live here. Be it where gunshots reign or where healthcare does not exist however; If your grandmother lives here, trust me you are that much more accepting to the idea of moving back to help.

Places like brooklyn and inner city chicago,...etc. These are the places that require the best surgeons who are truly dedicated to saving lives. Im not condoning gang activities but I hope you catch my drift. For anyone in such an environment to want to pursue MEDICINE is a major Leap and second to non existant. I was once told by an older black male that there was no way that a black man could become a doctor in the U.S(******: perfect example of Black ignorance). Furthermore, even in college education is very hard for most blacks. WHY? Because we did not get the solid educational foundation before college. Trust me knowing a little about gen chem from high school makes it easier to build upon rather than starting from scratch. This goes for all other classes because black communities have the worse H.S education systems.

I know this is not quantitive data but I wanted to shed some light on the thread.

Hope this helps

 

[bookfreak89]

This is very, very true. A lot of people don't realize it but certain African countries (believe it or not, Africa is not one monolithic country!) produce "model minorities" (not a phrase I like to use.) Particularly West African countries like Nigeria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority#Black_Immigrants_from_Africa

I do believe I read (I may be wrong here) that over 50% of Harvard's black undergraduates are immigrants or from immigrant families.

Obviously that does fuel people who want to shove it in the face of entrenched African-Americans ("these black people could succeed, why can't you?!"), but it goes back to what LizzyM said...bigots don't care where a black person comes from, all black people, indeed all of Africa, is exactly the same to them. These URM provisions are there for many reasons, and two of those reasons are to guard against unconscious bigotry behind the adcom desks and to infuse culturally sensitive doctors into a culturally sensitive profession.

I am pretty sure that Nigerians make up the majority of African students at any top-tier university (or probably any university for that matter).

 

[FluffyRabbit]

Completely agreed. If you're going to be my doctor (especially my surgeon), i'd prefer an extremely high step score. I'll see a low step score doc when i need a prescription for my cold or need help with a broken toe, but nothing too serious.

The point is that you need to pass the STEP. You don't need to score in the top 10% of all test takers. Just because someone has a 20 doesn't mean they can't pass the STEP, nor does a 35 guarantee that you will pass it.

And how the hell would you have access to this information? Is it on their name tags?

Andrew Johnson, M.D.
Btw, STEP I Score = 270 (b*tches)

Don't think so.

While the availability of (or lack thereof) this information implies that we won't be able to use it to pick our physicians in practice, it doesn't invalid the preference for doctors with higher step scores. Residency directors that have do this information seem to in fact like higher step scores. I don't think arguing "My 190 is also a pass" to them is going to meet much success if you want to do neurosurgery. While you don't need to score in the top 10% to be a doctor, isn't it a good thing if you do?

 

[armybound]

While the availability of (or lack thereof) this information implies that we won't be able to use it to pick our physicians in practice, it doesn't invalid the preference for doctors with higher step scores. Residency directors that have do this information seem to in fact like higher step scores. I don't think arguing "My 190 is also a pass" to them is going to meet much success if you want to do neurosurgery. While you don't need to score in the top 10% to be a doctor, isn't it a good thing if you do?

Everyone wants to get the best of the crop of applicants they're looking for. If you want to fill your class with privileged white kids, take the most privileged white kids with the highest numbers you can find. Of course it's that way.

This is why I'm saying admissions is also qualitative, which apparently is not coming across to anyone. You guys are assuming there's a pool of applicants from which you take the best students, then there's a small portion of slots that are mandated to go to URMs. That's incredibly simplistic.

My own class is a lot more complex. You have URMs from privileged backgrounds and URMs from underprivileged backgrounds. You have whites who have parents with professional/doctorage degrees and you have whites from parents who didn't finish high school. Same goes for about every other ethnicity/race you want to look at. The admissions committee probably made it a point to make sure they have a smattering of all types of students for a large number of reasons, not the least of which is to make sure they're representing the composition of the population as a whole.

So if you allot 25% of your class to disadvantaged URMs, 25% to privileged URMs, 25% to privileged whites, and 25% to disadvantaged whites, you have 4 separate pools to draw the "best" from within each category. If the "best" disadvantaged URM has a 27 MCAT and you accept that person over a 35/4.0 privileged white person, you still chose the best person for your desired class composition.

Call it unfair or anything you like, but the goal of admissions, I imagine, is usually not simply to take the highest numbers possible regardless of the specifics of someone's age, family education, parental income, life story...

Some day it may become apparent that medical school exists for the benefit of the community, not for the benefit of people who want to become doctors.

 

[Nakato]

Perchance the OP doesn't have to same ethnic advantages as you, thus he can't spend a majority of his time frolicking in green pastures and doing significantly less stellar in school. Maybe the OP feels like the application system is biased against his race, something he had no choice about. Maybe the OP is frustrated that a fellow human being, of a different race, gets superior treatment to his own kind. Maybe he feels the application process is a bit racist and wants others to see the magnitude and numbers behind these acts.

I don't know though, you'll have to ask the OP.

Perhaps, these sentiments are the EXACT SAME ONES URMS feel their whole lives in hundreds of situations. Welcome to the other side.

I suspect the OP wouldn't trade in his 'majority membership' and live his life as a URM, if it meant he'd get an advantage for med school admissions. I doubt you'd find many non-URM who'd make that trade.


I don't know though. You'll have to ask the OP.

 

[dokein]

Plot MCAT on the x axis and proportion of medical students who graduate within 4 years on the y axis. There is a steep curve that flattens out at about 26 (!) and dips slightly for the very highest scores (I suspect a small proportion of that group take a year off to do research & further buff their medical school credentials).

Have you ever heard of "driving while black?" Have you ever heard of other discrimination heaped upon blacks in the US? If not, you need to get to know more black folks.

Obviously there are racist practices that black people experience regardless of their socioeconomic status.

The magnitude of adverse experience should be determined by the essay written in the 'disadvantaged' portion of the AMCAS, rather than an otherwise uninformative checkbox in the race section of the AMCAS. I completely agree that an African-Am person growing up in Inglewood has significantly more disadvantage on average than an Asian-Am person growing up in a similarly poor (economically) community, and this is something that person could address in their essay.

But there is a certain level of adversity below which, even though environmental influences absolutely still exist, we ideally (imo, obviously) hold all people to the same standards. As a professional school, you are admitting adults (22 y.o.+) with free will.

Implicit in the argument that some groups have relative disadvantages causing their relative underperformance is that other groups have relative advantages causing their relative overperformance.

Taking the question of affirmative action from the other direction, the population with the most advantages is the Jewish population, which by measurement of financial and academic far outperforms all other groups relative to their population. Should it be harder for a Jewish person to get into medical school relative to a non-Jewish white person (no data exist on this)?

What if Mr. Smith, in an underserved rural community in Montana, better emphasizes with Protestant doctors? Is it morally acceptable for a school in Montana, geared towards admitting doctors serving in its own state, to increase the level of difficulty for Jewish admits in order to have more Protestants more in line with the relevant populations?

As for the 26 argument, this can be addressed two ways.

1. 26 is the average for black students, which means 50% are below average. This represents a significant proportion of the population which has an increased chance of not finishing within four years. Excluding Puerto Rican (23.7 average, probably due to the PR schools), no other URM group has more than 35% falling into this category (multiple Latino/Hispanic).

2. The MCAT gives you the opportunity for education and to take the USMLE. Whether or not score is relevant, students are told that scoring higher means more opportunity. The amount of future opportunities available is limited and therefore the admissions process is a zero-sum game. In a zero sum game, favoring group A over group B is functionally equivalent to disfavoring group B relative to group A. I am sure you do not consciously deny anyone a spot in medical school as a result of race, nevertheless, that is exactly what is happening. Race is not the largest factor (the applicant's own responsibilities are), but it is one.

At the very least, any system that gives a subset of the population advantages or disadvantages based on their race must be absolutely transparent in its goals, as well as its methods and immediate/long-term results in relation to that goal. By its nature, affirmative-action-like policies is an ethical consideration that should be open for discussion by the community at large. A productive discussion on the degree of URM consideration given can only happen when the degree is known, rather than guesstimated.

 

[mekel]

Seriously, this post should be removed. Way too combustible. But since I'm here, I'll throw some petrol on this bad boy. I agree with LizzyM. This country owes the African American community. Owes it way more than can be made up by a little preferential treatment here and there, if that is even the case. It troubles me that so many idiots here are, in an effort to better their chances at personal success, willing to overlook/ignore the hundreds of years of s*** that has been dumped on African Americans . I don't care how well-intentioned the argument is. As far as I'm concerned, the OP's looking for a seat for his bags of money, and trying to justify throwing a one-legged man from the bus to get it. Oh, and I am Caucasian.

 

[dokein]

Perhaps, these sentiments are the EXACT SAME ONES URMS feel their whole lives in hundreds of situations. Welcome to the other side.

I suspect the OP wouldn't trade in his 'majority membership' and live his life as a URM, if it meant he'd get an advantage for med school admissions. I doubt you'd find many non-URM who'd make that trade.


I don't know though. You'll have to ask the OP.

Maybe OP is not griping about the system or demanding changes for his own benefit, since he already got into medical school, but is genuinely concerned about the morality of things.

 

[Ischemic]

Maybe OP is not griping about the system or demanding changes for his own benefit, since he already got into medical school, but is genuinely concerned about the morality of things.

LOL you're equating getting into medical school as a moral issue and that rejecting qualified applicants as immoral?? Seriously?? It's med school admission not a life or death decision. It may seem like that now to most premeds applying but it really isn't.

Something immoral would be not giving the poor URM kid an opportunity because of his struggles in preference for a rich non-URM kid who happens to have done better in school. How do you know the poor URM kid wouldn't have done just as well as the non-URM kid if given the same opportunities growing up?

 

[dokein]

Seriously, this post should be removed. Way too combustible. But since I'm here, I'll throw some petrol on this bad boy. I agree with LizzyM. This country owes the African American community. Owes it way more than can be made up by a little preferential treatment here and there, if that is even the case. It troubles me that so many idiots here are, in an effort to better their chances at personal success, willing to overlook/ignore the hundreds of years of s*** that has been dumped on African Americans . I don't care how well-intentioned the argument is. As far as I'm concerned, the OP's looking for a seat for his bags of money, and trying to justify throwing a one-legged man from the bus to get it. Oh, and I am Caucasian.

1. I am a first-generation immigrant with no personal responsibility for the history of this country. Of course the argument could be made that I am now benefiting indirectly by using its resources, but I suspect you will have to cool down emotionally before making that argument.

2. I am already accepted to medical school. There is no throwing anybody "off the bus" for my personal gain, because I would derive no personal benefit from a change in the system.

3. If I recall correctly, you yourself have experienced a difficult past resulting in what felt like a lack of support by society. With an inspiring story, have overcome it and taken responsibility. You yourself wish to be judged on the merits of your current accomplishments and did not ask for special consideration.

Considering that you would not like people to judge you superficially (based on a record), I am a little bit offended that you are so quick to judge my intentions, seemingly without reading any of my posts.

 

[dokein]

LOL you're equating getting into medical school as a moral issue and that rejecting qualified applicants as immoral?? Seriously?? It's med school admission not a life or death decision. It may seem like that now to most premeds applying but it really isn't.

Something immoral would be not giving the poor URM kid an opportunity because of his struggles in preference for a rich non-URM kid who happens to have done better in school. How do you know the poor URM kid wouldn't have done just as well as the non-URM kid if given the same opportunities growing up?

Differential racial considerations is absolutely a moral issue. Whether or not affirmative action is morally correct is what we are debating.

 

[she woolf]

As a proportion of the population, few URMs have the goal of being a doctor, fewer URMs understand what it takes to become a doctor (due to the environment they grow up in), and even fewer URMs have the resources necessary to do well (educational systems, culture's perceived value of education).

The disadvantaged box addresses #3 and to some extent #2.

Not all people with these three factors (goal, understanding, resources) are URM. I have friends who are Asian with immigrant parents that were not college-educated (and did not understand college much), lived in the ghetto with gang violence, etc. They are given the disadvantaged box.

Note that there is no check-mark for "poor immigrants," and I have been directly told by multiple admissions committee members that Asian immigration experiences are typically laughed at and not valued. However, anecdote does not equal data, so whether disadvantaged is equally addressed between ethnic groups cannot be studied.

Not all URMs have these three factors. An enormous proportion of black people in medical school are African-Americans (recently immigrated from Africa) rather than Afro-Americans (I do not have a citation but a lot of people would agree with this). As a group, they are the most educated ethnic subgroup in America (according to Wikipedia) and some of them benefit from association with URM populations without the concomitant disadvantages.

Furthermore, #1 and #2 should be addressed with reform at earlier stages of education. Not compensated for at the professional school level with 22 year old adult applicants--in our society, children can blame the environment, but adults are not typically afforded this consideration.

I think most recently immigrated children/people [asians, latins black caribbeans] tend to do better than the average american kid/person. [at least from my experience] why? I have my theories but I'd rather keep them to myself.

 

[sustentacular]

The only way any of the "URM advantage" will be eliminated is if way more URM students apply to medical school. So, if you have a problem with the current system encourage more of your Black, Mexican, and Puerto Rican undergrad classmates to become doctors. In the end it still wont affect your chances at admissions, but hey, at least it'll make it harder for someone else to get in, right?

 

[Ischemic]

Differential racial considerations is absolutely a moral issue. Whether or not affirmative action is morally correct is what we are debating.

And merely looking at MCAT/GPA is not a racially differential consideration? Even though we know African Americans tend to score lower than other minorities, a situation not independent of the fact that many blacks came from poor neighborhoods with ****ty school systems and that their baseline educational development was not maximized?

 

[LizzyM]

And merely looking at MCAT/GPA is not a racially differential consideration? Even though we know African Americans tend to score lower than other minorities, a situation not independent of the fact that many blacks came from poor neighborhoods with ****ty school systems and that their baseline educational development was not maximized?

Keep in mind, too, that some students experience discrimination and bias when grading is subjective (as in essay questions and class discussion). This hurts gpa. Also we know from social science research that telling people "your kind tend not to do well on this test" will negatively impact performance compared with a neutral message prior to the test.

Discuss.

 

[armybound]

Keep in mind, too, that some students experience discrimination and bias when grading is subjective (as in essay questions and class discussion). This hurts gpa. Also we know from social science research that telling people "your kind tend not to do well on this test" will negatively impact performance compared with a neutral message prior to the test.

Discuss.

I think how you take those kinds of messages would depend on the individual. The reason I'm doing so well in medical school is largely due to the people who told me I'd never get in to medical school. I have a strong desire to rub it in their faces that not only did I get in, but I did very well.

Other people may take it as you said, though.

 

[sustentacular]

Seriously, this post should be removed. Way too combustible. But since I'm here, I'll throw some petrol on this bad boy. I agree with LizzyM. This country owes the African American community. Owes it way more than can be made up by a little preferential treatment here and there, if that is even the case. It troubles me that so many idiots here are, in an effort to better their chances at personal success, willing to overlook/ignore the hundreds of years of s*** that has been dumped on African Americans . I don't care how well-intentioned the argument is. As far as I'm concerned, the OP's looking for a seat for his bags of money, and trying to justify throwing a one-legged man from the bus to get it. Oh, and I am Caucasian.

My take is that if there are X% African Americans in the US, then X% of Doctors should be Black. So some preferential treatment is shown in the application process to increase the % of Black Doctors... not to make it up to Black people for slavery, and previous civil rights injustices. If that were the case wouldn't there be some required proof that your heritage in the US dates back to the Antebellum era?

Anyway, I haven't read all the posts thoroughly, so my apologies if I'm not responding to the correct poster or something.

 

[LizzyM]

I think how you take those kinds of messages would depend on the individual. The reason I'm doing so well in medical school is largely due to the people who told me I'd never get in to medical school. I have a strong desire to rub it in their faces that not only did I get in, but I did very well.

Other people may take it as you said, though.

I had the same experience as an undergrad when my Psych 101 professor said something to me on the first day that suggested that I couldn't cut it. I aced the course.

The research I was speaking of uses a test taken by participants in a research study. The results of the test are of no consequence to the research subjects and may not even be reported to them after the test session is completed.

Tell women, minorities, etc that "your kind don't do well on this type of test" and and they are going to perform more poorly than research participants drawn from the same pool that are given a neutral message such as "there are two versions of the test and each has 25 questions."