A quantitative discussion of the URM disparity

[she woolf]

If some people are so worried about not getting in because of URM maybe they should have a colorblind system. Not race box checking and interviews by phone. They do that with orchestra audtions because they thought females couldn't play [i forget what instrument] better than males. Thoughts?

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[she woolf]

We keep talking about URM came from crappy high schools etc. But what about college then? I don't see why bringing up crappy high schools has to do with med school, which is 4 yrs after college? How does having been to a crappy high school have to do with why a URM did less than average on the MCAT??

 

[LizzyM]

If some people are so worried about not getting in because of URM maybe they should have a colorblind system. Not race box checking and interviews by phone. They do that with orchestra audtions because they thought females couldn't play [i forget what instrument] better than males. Thoughts?

Doctors don't treat us from behind a curtain. Body language says a lot and, in fact, so does color (particularly if you are a person of color who does not trust the white establishment because of the disgusting history of abuse and discrimination in American medicine).

Medicine is a service industry and being personable is very important. That is the purpose of the interview. It just can't be done by phone.

 

[WhizoMD]

We keep talking about URM came from crappy high schools etc. But what about college then? I don't see why bringing up crappy high schools has to do with med school, which is 4 yrs after college? How does having been to a crappy high school have to do with why a URM did less than average on the MCAT??

imagine going straight into upper division coursework without the foundation provided by the required prerequisite courses. That's sort off what the jump from crap H.S. to college is like. While your peers from decent high schools will be plowing ahead, you'll still be building your foundation; college courses and app. schedules usually don't wait for you to catch up, so scores take a hit until you do.

 

[oaklandguy]

Keep in mind, too, that some students experience discrimination and bias when grading is subjective (as in essay questions and class discussion). This hurts gpa. Also we know from social science research that telling people "your kind tend not to do well on this test" will negatively impact performance compared with a neutral message prior to the test.

Discuss.

I'm not a URM, but I am a student of "color" and feel as though one specific teacher may have had an agenda to sabotage me. I took this up to the chair, but he did not care for my argument what-so-ever. I ended up getting a poor grade in a class that on average has 35% A's.

Is there any way at all for someone to explain something like this to a med-school in my application or during an interview, or am I better off just ignoring it?

 

[deleted307836]

.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm not a URM, but I am a student of "color" and feel as though one specific teacher may have had an agenda to sabotage me. I took this up to the chair, but he did not care for my argument what-so-ever. I ended up getting a poor grade in a class that on average has 35% A's.

Is there any way at all for someone to explain something like this to a med-school in my application or during an interview, or am I better off just ignoring it?

Ignore it. If someone is concerned about it, they might ask during an interview. This is the zit on the chin.... do not mention the zit on your chin. We can see it. We know that people get zits on their chins. It does not help your chances to point out your flaw. Dazzle us and distract us and we won't even notice that zit.

 

[oaklandguy]

Ignore it. If someone is concerned about it, they might ask during an interview. This is the zit on the chin.... do not mention the zit on your chin. We can see it. We know that people get zits on their chins. It does not help your chances to point out your flaw. Dazzle us and distract us and we won't even notice that zit.

The thing is the zit is only there because someone rubbed butter on my chin while I was asleep. But I understand why I shouldn't draw attention to it. I don't know how I can truly dazzle an interviewer who has probably seen everything, but I'll do my best.

 

[jturkel]

Affirmative Action based on race is bound to die out sooner or later if we truly want to become a meritocratic society. I recently read an essay by an economist (who happens to be African-American) who struck me with an interesting point: AA can essentially "cheapen" the real accomplishments of minority students as long as the system is tiered, and it sadly creates a rational basis of discrimination. In other words, as long as preferences are granted towards those of certain racial backgrounds, society has ground to question the abilities of certain "populations" against others in the same profession... which sucks for the minority physician who happens to be outstanding).

and it happens....and most people i know (including current physicians, both URM and not) think this way....can't blame them. i only want the best healthcare for myself and my family, and unfortunately, the system ends up hurting the URM physicians in the end anyway.

 

[armybound]

Affirmative Action based on race is bound to die out sooner or later if we truly want to become a meritocratic society. I recently read an essay by an economist (who happens to be African-American) who struck me with an interesting point: AA can essentially "cheapen" the real accomplishments of minority students as long as the system is tiered, and it sadly creates a rational basis of discrimination. In other words, as long as preferences are granted towards those of certain racial backgrounds, society has ground to question the abilities of certain "populations" against others in the same profession... which sucks for the minority physician who happens to be outstanding).

If anything, preference should be given to those of a more disadvantaged socioeconomic background. It's completely unfair that an Asian applicant whose family recently immigrated from Thailand and is a first-generation college student is automatically shoved into the "Asian" category, which of course means high-achieving and thus an impediment in the current admissions process. (I'm not Asian btw, just an example).

I'm not sure if it will ever go away. I agree 100% that it cheapens the experience for those who truly excelled to get where they are.

But every time I'm in a traffic jam where lanes are merging, people will see all of the stopped traffic, fly by us on the outside, and cut somebody off. Obviously the best move for everyone is to merge way back when and let traffic keep moving, but people choose to cause problems because they don't care about the cost their actions have on others as long as it benefits them. I don't think these sorts of preferential treatments will go away either because people won't care if they cheapen someone else's achievements as long as they get to fulfill their goal of getting into school, being hired, being promoted, etc.

 

[dokein]

I'm not a URM, but I am a student of "color" and feel as though one specific teacher may have had an agenda to sabotage me. I took this up to the chair, but he did not care for my argument what-so-ever. I ended up getting a poor grade in a class that on average has 35% A's.

Is there any way at all for someone to explain something like this to a med-school in my application or during an interview, or am I better off just ignoring it?

Just curious (this is not meant to be antagonistic at all) but how do you know it was race-based?

At one of my medical school interviews, when I told them that I played piano in my spare time, the interviewer said, "I am sure your parents forced you into it." I felt pretty insulted by this statement, and felt that it was likely related to the stereotype that every Asian kid is forced to play piano/violin by their parents, but there is no actual evidence. Other applicants also get inappropriate comments by interviewers so...

 

[WhizoMD]

and it happens....and most people i know (including current physicians, both URM and not) think this way....can't blame them. i only want the best healthcare for myself and my family, and unfortunately, the system ends up hurting the URM physicians in the end anyway.

I'm pretty sure attending physicians aren't as petty as pre-meds. As a physician, if you're exceptional you get recognized no matter what your race is. There are a few famous URM surgeons I know of; URM status for med school applicants, didn't stop them from being recognized for exceptional work.

-edit-
also on a smaller scale, the most popular pediatrician in town growing up was a URM female; URM status for med school applicants, didn't stop people from trusting her with their children.

 

[Quicky]

Just two things I find hilarious about this thread (and the inability to understand URM policy in general):

1. URM is supposed to to increase the proportion of physicians belonging to a specific race relative to their population yet one after another posting on this thread (both in defense and against URM policies) reverts to the issue of social and economic inequalities. They give examples of the awful schools and resources they have access to leading to further inequalities while in college. Is this not perfectly accounted for in the ability to describe disadvantaged backgrounds? As previously pointed out, there are plenty of non-URMs that live in poverty and experience these same disadvantages that you have pointed out as reasons for supporting the URM policy yet do not enjoy the benefits of being able to check the magic race box come application time.

2. For the people that mention racial prejudices as another reason for the validity of the URM policy, please stop acting like it's only blacks, mexican-americans, and native americans that are racially prejudiced against. Do you really think racism is restricted to those deemed URM?

 

[deleted307836]

Just two things I find hilarious about this thread (and the inability to understand URM policy in general):

1. URM is supposed to to increase the proportion of physicians belonging to a specific race relative to their population yet one after another posting on this thread (both in defense and against URM policies) reverts to the issue of social and economic inequalities. They give examples of the awful schools and resources they have access to leading to further inequalities while in college. Is this not perfectly accounted for in the ability to describe disadvantaged backgrounds? As previously pointed out, there are plenty of non-URMs that live in poverty and experience these same disadvantages that you have pointed out as reasons for supporting the URM policy yet do not enjoy the benefits of being able to check the magic race box come application time.

2. For the people that mention racial prejudices as another reason for the validity of the URM policy, please stop acting like it's only blacks, hispanics, and native americans that are racially prejudiced against. Do you really think racism is restricted to those deemed URM?

Are you sure about this (the bolded)? If that is the main purpose of race-based admissions (instead of "fairness" issues) and not just perhaps one of many factors then that is news to me.

 

[WhizoMD]

Just two things I find hilarious about this thread (and the inability to understand URM policy in general):

2. For the people that mention racial prejudices as another reason for the validity of the URM policy, please stop acting like it's only blacks, mexican-americans, and native americans that are racially prejudiced against. Do you really think racism is restricted to those deemed URM?

Hate Crimes Stats
from: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/victims.html

Racial bias More than half of the single-bias hate crimes were racially motivated. Of the 4,934 victims of these racial bias crimes:

• 72.9 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-black bias.
• 16.8 percent were victims because of an anti-white bias.
• 3.4 percent were targeted because of an anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias.
• 1.3 percent were victims because of an anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native bias.
• 5.6 percent were victims because of a bias against a group of individuals in which more than one race was represented (anti-multiple races, group). (Based on Table 1.)

Ethnicity/national origin bias
Hate crimes motivated by the offender’s bias toward a particular ethnicity/national origin were directed at 1,226 victims. Of these:

• 64.6 percent were victims of an anti-Hispanic bias.
• 35.4 percent were targeted because of a bias against other ethnicities/national origins. (Based on Table 1.)

 

[dokein]

Are you sure about this (the bolded)? If that is the main purpose of race-based admissions (instead of "fairness" issues) and not just perhaps one of many factors then that is news to me.

I think this is stated on the AAMC website in their brief on URM goals/policies.

 

[WhizoMD]

Are you sure about this (the bolded)? If that is the main purpose of race-based admissions (instead of "fairness" issues) and not just perhaps one of many factors then that is news to me.

The Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) definition of underrepresented in medicine is:

"Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population."

 

[deleted307836]

The Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) definition of underrepresented in medicine is:

"Underrepresented in medicine means those racial and ethnic populations that are underrepresented in the medical profession relative to their numbers in the general population."

Thanks for that.

The only thing that bothers me about that statement, however, is that they fail to state the benefits they foresee in instituting these policies.

Perhaps they answer that somewhere else in that publication. Maybe I should I read it .

 

[TNK123]

I live in a state where racial AA doesn't exist (see prop 209), and the URM student population is less than 10%. Despite the low number of URM and the absence of an AA policy, people continue to question the merit these students. They assume there must have been SOME policy in place. Therefore, even if we did do away with AA, there will still be a prevailing notion of inferiority.

 

[thamsenman]

flip26, this is for you

 

[deleted307836]

I live in a state where racial AA doesn't exist (see prop 209), and the URM student population is less than 10%. Despite the low number of URM and the absence of an AA policy, people continue to question the merit these students. They assume there must have been SOME policy in place. Therefore, even if we did do away with AA, there will still be a prevailing notion of inferiority.

That really surprises me. If there is a prevailing notion of inferiority after these policies are obliterated... well that's just flat out racist then.

Edit: Looks like someone beat me to it...

 

[WhizoMD]

Thanks for that.

The only thing that bothers me about that statement, however, is that they fail to state the benefits they foresee in instituting these policies.

Perhaps they answer that somewhere else in that publication. Maybe I should I read it .

Adopted by the AAMC's Executive Council on June 26, 2003, the definition helps medical schools accomplish three important objectives:

* a shift in focus from a fixed aggregation of four racial and ethnic groups to a continually evolving underlying reality. The definition accommodates including and removing underrepresented groups on the basis of changing demographics of society and the profession,
* a shift in focus from a national perspective to a regional or local perspective on underrepresentation, and
* stimulate data collection and reporting on the broad range of racial and ethnic self-descriptions.

Before June 26, 2003, the AAMC used the term "underrepresented minority (URM)," which consisted of Blacks, Mexican-Americans, Native Americans (that is, American Indians, Alaska Natives, and Native Hawaiians), and mainland Puerto Ricans. The AAMC remains committed to ensuring access to medical education and medicine-related careers for individuals from these four historically underrepresented racial/ethnic groups.

from: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=445413

 

[Quicky]

WhizoMD - 1617 hate crimes based on sexual-orientation occurred in 2008 yet LGBT individuals do not benefit from URM policies. Unfortunately African-Americans have been the victims of the majority of hate crimes, but that is not to say that racism and hate crimes are limited to the three URM races. Anyways, it's a moot point because the AAMC's URM policy is not in place to provide "fairness" to those that have experienced racism.

 

[oaklandguy]

Just curious (this is not meant to be antagonistic at all) but how do you know it was race-based?

At one of my medical school interviews, when I told them that I played piano in my spare time, the interviewer said, "I am sure your parents forced you into it." I felt pretty insulted by this statement, and felt that it was likely related to the stereotype that every Asian kid is forced to play piano/violin by their parents, but there is no actual evidence. Other applicants also get inappropriate comments by interviewers so...

One class the teacher asked us all about what we wanted to become. When I answered doctor he had stated that he had went to a doctor of my race before and that he did a really poor job. I then noticed that the feedback he was giving my papers was very poor and I was being graded differently than my peers. Journals were graded on how many pages were written, 30 pages was a 4.0, 20 was a 3.0, etc. I wrote 31 pages and was given a 2.0. When I told the teacher he said he had changed the way he graded the journals. My friend wrote 15 pages and had gotten a 2.5. My friend is white and he got a B+ in the class.

I had a conversation with the teacher and told him before the end of the semester that the grade I had in his class would be my worst grade in college. He said that if my grade in his class was the worst I was getting that I shouldn't be having a problem, this class is a required writing class to graduate and the department averages 35% A's. The teacher also noted things like he did not expect someone of my race to listen to alternative rock and other suggestions like this when I would participate in class basically making me not want to participate at all.

 

[thamsenman]

Can we have affirmative action for grades too? Too many asians, collectively are getting A's. Other races are not represented well.

 

[FlowRate]

Serious question: does anyone know if selecting "prefer not to answer" as ethnicity is at all detrimental or frowned upon? I firmly believe that the color of my skin is not applicable to this process. I'm not in a statistically disadvantaged socioeconomic group, and I think that's all that matters. It's probably pointless anyway -- I bet 90% of people who mark "prefer not to answer" are white and assumed to be the "sort of person who complains about affirmative action."

 

[dokein]

Serious question: does anyone know if selecting "prefer not to answer" as ethnicity is at all detrimental or frowned upon? I firmly believe that the color of my skin is not applicable to this process. I'm not in a statistically disadvantaged socioeconomic group, and I think that's all that matters. It's probably pointless anyway -- I bet 90% of people who mark "prefer not to answer" are white and assumed to be the "sort of person who complains about affirmative action."

"No race response" category ties for the highest MCAT (w/ Asian at 32.2) and has the highest GPA (3.71).

 

[Nafis64]

Someone said earlier if we admit only MCAT/GPA we get clones. True. Diversity is necessary for doctors. Doctors are leaders. Most people I know with high MCAT and GPA are shy nerds with no social skills or ambition other than a desire to get money or because their family tells them to.

Family guy puts it well, lol. Sorry but could not resist.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AIDmoBmCYD0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AIDmoBmCYD0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIDmoBmCYD0

 

[dokein]

The teacher also noted things like he did not expect someone of my race to listen to alternative rock and other suggestions like this when I would participate in class basically making me not want to participate at all.

I am very sorry to hear that. Assuming you told the entire truth (not saying you didn't) the teacher should be fired.

I haven't had any bad experiences in higher education, but I have quite a few stories from when I lived in Oregon (and was the only Asian in my school).

The most egregious I can remember was when a teacher who told the class that students A, B, C got the first, second, and third highest score on the exam, and then rewarded them with some pretty expensive-looking candies. The kid next to me saw my score and asked why I wasn't mentioned, and the teacher said "nobody cares about his kind".

That teacher gave me a D, C, and D in the math class (and for comparison I had gotten a 99th percentile on every nationalized test for math that we had taken and nearly aced all the exams in class) for the trimesters that year.

 

[mybubbles14]

Someone said earlier if we admit only MCAT/GPA we get clones. True. Diversity is necessary for doctors. Doctors are leaders. Most people I know with high MCAT and GPA are shy nerds with no social skills or ambition other than a desire to get money or because their family tells them to.

Family guy puts it well, lol. Sorry but could not resist.

[YOUTUBE]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AIDmoBmCYD0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AIDmoBmCYD0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIDmoBmCYD0

.....

 

[oaklandguy]

I am very sorry to hear that. Assuming you told the entire truth (not saying you didn't) the teacher should be fired.

I haven't had any bad experiences in higher education, but I have quite a few stories from when I lived in Oregon (and was the only Asian in my school).

The most egregious I can remember was when a teacher who told the class that students A, B, C got the first, second, and third highest score on the exam, and then rewarded them with some pretty expensive-looking candies. The kid next to me saw my score and asked why I wasn't mentioned, and the teacher said "nobody cares about his kind".

That teacher gave me a D, C, and D in the math class (and for comparison I had gotten a 99th percentile on every nationalized test for math that we had taken and nearly aced all the exams in class) for the trimesters that year.

That's horrible!!! Wow. It's crazy that stuff like this still exists in our country.

 

[FlowRate]

I am very sorry to hear that. Assuming you told the entire truth (not saying you didn't) the teacher should be fired.

I haven't had any bad experiences in higher education, but I have quite a few stories from when I lived in Oregon (and was the only Asian in my school).

The most egregious I can remember was when a teacher who told the class that students A, B, C got the first, second, and third highest score on the exam, and then rewarded them with some pretty expensive-looking candies. The kid next to me saw my score and asked why I wasn't mentioned, and the teacher said "nobody cares about his kind".

That teacher gave me a D, C, and D in the math class (and for comparison I had gotten a 99th percentile on every nationalized test for math that we had taken and nearly aced all the exams in class) for the trimesters that year.

This makes me sad on so many levels. I can't imagine what it's like as a kid being blatantly and publicly discriminated against by your teachers.

 

[rxlea]

I concur. It is disgusting.

 

[LizzyM]

WhizoMD - 1617 hate crimes based on sexual-orientation occurred in 2008 yet LGBT individuals do not benefit from URM policies. Unfortunately African-Americans have been the victims of the majority of hate crimes, but that is not to say that racism and hate crimes are limited to the three URM races. Anyways, it's a moot point because the AAMC's URM policy is not in place to provide "fairness" to those that have experienced racism.

If you don't believe it is factored into decisions, you are sadly mistaken. On the other hand, you will have people tell you that you shouldn't out yourself on your application....

btw, from what I see, most "prefer not to answer" applicants appear (based on name, place of birth, parents' names and parents' alma maters) to be from the Middle East & Asia or have their roots in those areas.

 

[Dr Lyss]

These URM discussions are always so black and white on an issue that has so many shades of grey. It makes no sense.


I had someone once tell me that I didn't "deserve" any URM consideration or my "spot" in medical school because I'm a Hispanic that doesn't speak Spanish fluently. They argued I won't effectively be able to serve that population without being fluent in the language so I shouldn't be considered Hispanic for medical schools.

What do you think?

 

[LizzyM]

These URM discussions are always so black and white on an issue that has so many shades of grey. It makes no sense.


I had someone once tell me that I didn't "deserve" any URM consideration or my "spot" in medical school because I'm a Hispanic that doesn't speak Spanish fluently. They argued I won't effectively be able to serve that population without being fluent in the language so I shouldn't be considered Hispanic for medical schools.

What do you think?

Well, you got a spot and I'm going to assume that you earned it. With URM, I always ask, "how does this applicant's life experience add to the class?" and "how well prepared is this applicant to serve underserved communities, including non-English speaking patients?" Students learn from one another's experience, particularly as it relates to how to relate to patients who are different from one's self. Being able to communicate effectively with patients who are underserved, including the Deaf community and Spanish speaking patients, and having first hand knowledge of the life experiences and attitudes of specific US populations (rural, inner-city, ethnic minority, etc) is highly desirable.

 

[glypha1104]

We keep talking about URM came from crappy high schools etc. But what about college then? I don't see why bringing up crappy high schools has to do with med school, which is 4 yrs after college? How does having been to a crappy high school have to do with why a URM did less than average on the MCAT??

I'm sorry, but this is an incredibly foolish and unintelligent statement. I am a first generation American of caribbean parents and never considered myself disadvantaged, until the first day of Gen Chem. When essentially your entire class has taken AP CHEM and you haven't, you're placed at a serious disadvantage from the moment that you register for the course. It's not fun playing catch-up with your more privileged peers in almost every course.

 

[FlowRate]

btw, from what I see, most "prefer not to answer" applicants appear (based on name, place of birth, parents' names and parents' alma maters) to be from the Middle East & Asia or have their roots in those areas.

Hmm.. that makes a lot of sense to me, especially for the Middle Eastern group. Is it at all frowned upon otherwise? I started thinking about this last year when I took a look at what was actually on AMCAS and haven't come up with a good answer either way (forgot about it until now lol).

 

[petyr_baelish]

I am all for the recalibration of affirmative action policies, especially since the most disadvantaged groups in a society is apt to change over time.

BUT...

I'm just not sure statistics alone is the best way to prove it.

Perhaps anecdotes would help change public opinion?

"Remember, statistics is that wonderful mathematic discipline that can prove to you, unequivoocally, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the average human being has one breast and one testicle." -- Dr. A*




*I found this quote on a medical blog.

 

[LizzyM]

Hmm.. that makes a lot of sense to me, especially for the Middle Eastern group. Is it at all frowned upon otherwise? I started thinking about this last year when I took a look at what was actually on AMCAS and haven't come up with a good answer either way (forgot about it until now lol).

Not frowned upon. Pretty neutral. Sometimes applicants will discuss in their personal statement if the situation is unusual: born abroad of white bread American parents, born abroad by parents who were immigrants from elsewhere, or adopted from abroad, or otherwise raised by people of a different race.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Serious question: does anyone know if selecting "prefer not to answer" as ethnicity is at all detrimental or frowned upon? I firmly believe that the color of my skin is not applicable to this process. I'm not in a statistically disadvantaged socioeconomic group, and I think that's all that matters. It's probably pointless anyway -- I bet 90% of people who mark "prefer not to answer" are white and assumed to be the "sort of person who complains about affirmative action."

i'm not answering that question because i feel the whole notion of race and ethnicity is very vague.

 

[MDman87]

This whole "discussion" is ridiculous and racist. What the OP wants is a supposedly color blind system

I have not read the entire discussion, just the first few posts, but how would a color blind system be ridiculous and racist?

 

[LizzyM]

I have not read the entire discussion, just the first few posts, but how would a color blind system be ridiculous and racist?

Let's say we didn't ask about race on the application but the interviews continued to be face to face, which we've established is necessary to capture non-verbal communication skills. Racist interviewers could discriminate against applicants who were believed to be undesirable due to their ethnicity and never be found out because there would be no way to demonstrate statistically that the school(s) discriminated against a given racial group.

 

[flip26]

Let's say we didn't ask about race on the application but the interviews continued to be face to face, which we've established is necessary to capture non-verbal communication skills. Racist interviewers could discriminate against applicants who were believed to be undesirable due to their ethnicity and never be found out because there would be no way to demonstrate statistically that the school(s) discriminated against a given racial group.

LizzyM beat me to it.

What people are arguing for is a prohibition against medical schools determining the composition of their student body according to their mission as they see it (men, women, instate or OOS, diversity of backgrounds, educational diversity, economically disadvantaged applicants, URM, whatever).

 

[Untraditional]

I think that the primary justification is to increase the number of URM doctors working with URM patients.

Therefore, I propose that if you are URM and you sign a contract stating that you will serve in URM minority / underserved areas.

I propose that you go "quantify" when segregation ended.

 

[Carboxide]

Let's say we didn't ask about race on the application but the interviews continued to be face to face, which we've established is necessary to capture non-verbal communication skills. Racist interviewers could discriminate against applicants who were believed to be undesirable due to their ethnicity and never be found out because there would be no way to demonstrate statistically that the school(s) discriminated against a given racial group.

Well...couldn't you just look at the percentage of URMs that got interviews and acceptances and see if it is statistically the same? Theoretically, once you get an interview they basically are telling you that your stats (GPA, MCAT, etc) are good enough, right? So if the school as a whole or even a certain interviewer is voting no on a larger percentage for URMs then that should be statistically significant, right?

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

When someone says colorblind they mean to treat all applicants as if they were white.

And white students and asian students do get in with 26's, look at D.O stats. Should D.O schools be disbanded because they are unfair? URMs where actively kept out of medschools for years and now America is paying their dues.

Also % don't mean anything since you guys are talking about URM's taking your seats. Looking at applicants who had a 26 or lower MCAT Black(2409)+Hispanic(1653)=4962 now for Asian Americans(924)+Whites(4521)=5445

So more ORMs get in with lower stats than URMs.

But WAIT!!! Brigade!!!! URMS get in at a higher % with lower stats than their ORM counterparts!!! Yeah so? The overall acceptance of URMs is lower that that of ORMs and URM's make up about 7% of the medical class overall.

Also URM compared to Asian is silly since the majority of the accepted are white. AA is there because the status of URMs ISN'T FAIR. To erase the struggles one group had to go through and say alright everything is okay now is ludacris.

Also you Medschool acceptance is not owed to you only deserve the grades in your undergraduate classes. And a higher % of URMs go serve in underserved areas than ORMs.


And the most important point
And finally whites get in with a higher % with lower stats than Asians despite them having a larger amount of students. Whites have a higher % of acceptance by 3-7% better chance of being accepted even though Whites outnumber asians by 1 to 3. More asians students.

Whites have a 7% better chance of acceptance than asians for total MCAT being 26 and lower despite having a way higher about of applicants by around 3 times the amount. Asians are hurt more by whites than they are by URMs.

And 3% of Medical student seats are occupied by ORMs with MCATs of 23 and below.

 

[she woolf]

I'm sorry, but this is an incredibly foolish and unintelligent statement. I am a first generation American of caribbean parents and never considered myself disadvantaged, until the first day of Gen Chem. When essentially your entire class has taken AP CHEM and you haven't, you're placed at a serious disadvantage from the moment that you register for the course. It's not fun playing catch-up with your more privileged peers in almost every course.

I didn't know colleges didn't offer tutoring, study groups, placement classes and such... also it's your job to fix what your highschool failed to teach you. It sucks but that's the price you pay when going to a crappy highschool. I don't mean to be crass but you kinda asked for it

FYI I'm first generation American too

 

[Gifted Hands]

I didn't know colleges didn't offer tutoring, study groups, placement classes and such... also it's your job to fix what your highschool failed to teach you. It sucks but that's the price you pay when going to a crappy highschool. I don't mean to be crass but you kinda asked for it

FYI I'm first generation American too

No offense, but this is just a very ignorant thought. I don't even know where to start. Do you think people choose to go to crappy high schools?

 

[she woolf]

I don't recall saying CHOOSE anywhere in my posts. I know not everyone gets to pick their school. However, it's up to you to either complain or fix your cirumstances the best way you can, how you can in college. That's just the way I see it. It's not fair but life sucks and so do a lot of american school systems.