A quantitative discussion of the URM disparity

[Brigade4Radiant]

Also to address the argument that African american immigrants get in on URM status how the hell do you know? Did you ask for their stats? Do you know what proportion the make out of black applicants? You simply assume that if an African immigrant gets in they have low stats despite the fact that 17% of black applicants get in with MCATs with 30 and above.

So African immigrants despite the fact they make a minority of black premeds steal the URM status from "Afro-Americans"

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[bookfreak89]

Also to address the argument that African american immigrants get in on URM status how the hell do you know? Did you ask for their stats? Do you know what proportion the make out of black applicants? You simply assume that if an African immigrant gets in they have low stats despite the fact that 17% of black applicants get in with MCATs with 30 and above.

So African immigrants despite the fact they make a minority of black premeds steal the URM status from "Afro-Americans"

Are you addressing what I posted or dokein?

 

[TFK]

Beware. Random ramblings/anecdotal information ahead.

What state are you from? They may not be African immigrants, but children of African immigrants (or 1st generation African-Americans).

This is the mantra of African immigrants (which they subsequently tell their children): "When you go to college (and you WILL go to college), you will either do pre-med/pre-law/or some type of engineering, or just get some sort of post-undergrad degree, a masters or something (particularly MBA), then go work for a company."

At my university, the student body is ~8% black. However, I would say a little bit more than half of the black students are 1st generation African/Carib immigrants. Every single African student on this campus is premed/prelaw (actually there is one prelaw; premed --> prelaw, lol). Their majors may vary but they are still premed. Some one (a grad student at Duke) also told me that one of the undergraduate classes at Duke (class of 2009, 2010, etc.), their black population was 50% Nigerian females. Take that for what you will.

Anyways, my point is dokein is correct when he says that a large number (may/may not be the majority) of black premeds are either African immigrants (not too likely, but it happens) or 1st generation African-Americans (majority). Now whether or not they are all well-off...that is a different story. There are some, but definitely not all.

I would have to agree. Most African immigrants tell their children that they MUST pursue pre-med or engineering or some pre-health field. And here at my university and other well respected schools, (not includuing HBCU's) the black population is usually comprised of about half of the children of African immigrants. More than often, these students fall into the same economic and social statuses as traditional African American students. As mentioned earlier, many African American minorities do not the the same educational opportunities compared to others. High school preparation in many cases is mediocre and does not allow students to perform well at the post-secondary level. This carried over into college and before they have time to adapt to the demands, GPA's may already be plundered.

The lack of African Americans in the health field currently does not help in the sense that there is few encouragement from health professionals that can serve as mentors to these students. Many African American students give up their medical aspirations after one or two semesters of college. They see what they are up against and they know that the statistics are already against them.

I HIGHLY doubt that URM's are hindering anyone's chances at matriculating into medical school. I can see how the lower standards of acceptance for URM's may seem unfair, but we have to consider the circumstances that each group faces and the desperate need for diversity in health care. Look up the statisitics for any non-HBCU medical school class and account for the number of African american students. I do not think the numbers support many of the arguments posted in this thread. I know many African American students in medical school right now who are the only person of their race in their academic class. I also think we have to credit the admissions officers...all of the people matriculating are getting interviewed, and they are making their way through medical school, so something is being done right.

 

[PinkIvy08]

Also to address the argument that African american immigrants get in on URM status how the hell do you know? Did you ask for their stats? Do you know what proportion the make out of black applicants? You simply assume that if an African immigrant gets in they have low stats despite the fact that 17% of black applicants get in with MCATs with 30 and above.

So African immigrants despite the fact they make a minority of black premeds steal the URM status from "Afro-Americans"

(I'm not really in this "debate" but saw this and had to comment)

I think we all know that African immigrants make up a majority of Blacks in most colleges...especially among the pre-med population (ex: all my Nigerian undergrad friends were told by their parents they were going to be either doctors or lawyers, and guess what? whether they like it or not, all of them and their siblings followed their parents wishes - not saying this always holds true, but...). I remember at my undergrad institution, which boasts of sending one of the largest amounts of Black pre-meds to med school out of all undergrads (including HBCUs), threw a stat at us that shocked me. Out of the 150 or so Blacks in our class, only ~26 were what they called "Regular Black" (i.e. descended from slavery in the US). The other ~83% were either first generation Africans/ Caribbean or mixed.

Another test, just look at the 5-10 Black students in any given med school class. Most likely most are African.

I'm not saying immigrants' children don't deserve to be able to qualify for URM (although I think they are now over-represented in the Blk US population), however I am strongly arguing that Blacks descended from slavery in America really are not progressing as a population. Other people of color are coming over, doing fine, and people look to that to say the past and current injustices are now irrelevant. Sad, but true.

My apologies for this tangent. Continue

 

[Untraditional]

I think we all know that African immigrants make up a majority of Blacks in most colleges...

This utterly wrong statement demands numbers to back it up or a retraction.

In 2007, a team of researchers published a study in The American Journal of Education finding that while only about 13 percent of black people aged 18 or 19 in the United States are first- or second-generation immigrants, they made up 27 percent of black students at the colleges studied.

Does 27% constitute a majority these days?

According to the study the proportion of immigrants was highest at the Ivy's, where the made up 40% of the black student body.

40% is still a bit short of the majority threshold.

Maybe in your experience you only associated with Nigerians?

 

[chelala]

(I'm not really in this "debate" but saw this and had to comment)

I think we all know that African immigrants make up a majority of Blacks in most colleges...especially among the pre-med population (ex: all my Nigerian undergrad friends were told by their parents they were going to be either doctors or lawyers, and guess what? whether they like it or not, all of them and their siblings followed their parents wishes - not saying this always holds true, but...). I remember at my undergrad institution, which boasts of sending one of the largest amounts of Black pre-meds to med school out of all undergrads (including HBCUs), threw a stat at us that shocked me. Out of the 150 or so Blacks in our class, only ~26 were what they called "Regular Black" (i.e. descended from slavery in the US). The other ~83% were either first generation Africans/ Caribbean or mixed.

Another test, just look at the 5-10 Black students in any given med school class. Most likely most are African.

I'm not saying immigrants' children don't deserve to be able to qualify for URM (although I think they are now over-represented in the Blk US population), however I am strongly arguing that Blacks descended from slavery in America really are not progressing as a population. Other people of color are coming over, doing fine, and people look to that to say the past and current injustices are now irrelevant. Sad, but true.

My apologies for this tangent. Continue

I find this to be the case, more often than not. But it also says something that many people don't know the difference between first generation African and "Regular" black, as in descendants of slaves. Black=black=black I am not opposed to them qualifying as URM, but one has to wonder if they are indeed underrepresented. I'm not first generation African, but what is their motivation for serving the urban minority populations if they haven't really been brought up in that enviornment? I would like to see those numbers, but again, I do not wish to divide us as we are such a small group already.

 

[bookfreak89]

(I'm not really in this "debate" but saw this and had to comment)

I think we all know that African immigrants make up a majority of Blacks in most colleges...especially among the pre-med population (ex: all my Nigerian undergrad friends were told by their parents they were going to be either doctors or lawyers, and guess what? whether they like it or not, all of them and their siblings followed their parents wishes - not saying this always holds true, but...). I remember at my undergrad institution, which boasts of sending one of the largest amounts of Black pre-meds to med school out of all undergrads (including HBCUs), threw a stat at us that shocked me. Out of the 150 or so Blacks in our class, only ~26 were what they called "Regular Black" (i.e. descended from slavery in the US). The other ~83% were either first generation Africans/ Caribbean or mixed.

Another test, just look at the 5-10 Black students in any given med school class. Most likely most are African.

I'm not saying immigrants' children don't deserve to be able to qualify for URM (although I think they are now over-represented in the Blk US population), however I am strongly arguing that Blacks descended from slavery in America really are not progressing as a population. Other people of color are coming over, doing fine, and people look to that to say the past and current injustices are now irrelevant. Sad, but true.

My apologies for this tangent. Continue

Don't worry, it is.

 

[PinkIvy08]

No, my experience does not only involve Nigerians.

Out of the 150 or so Blacks in our class, only ~26 were what they called "Regular Black" (i.e. descended from slavery in the US). The other ~83% were either first generation Africans/ Caribbean or mixed.

Another test, just look at the 5-10 Black students in any given med school class. Most likely most are African.

As stated, out of ~150, only 26 of us were descended from slavery. I went to Duke (to simplify things). You're more than welcomed to view our yearbook and see for yourself that the overwhelming majority of our Blk student body is 1st generation African or Caribbean (as I stated, from my experience).

I'm not retracting a correct statement. Go look at most med school classes. For most, I'd bet anything that of the URM population most are not "Regular Black." Also, HBCUs overwhelmingly have a very large "Regular Black" population. Non-HBCUs, like Ivies and other top institutions, tend to have a much larger % of immigrants representing the URM population, but a smaller number of students of color as compared to HBCUs. Furthermore, the stat you quoted only furthers my main point that this population of 1st generation immigrants is over-represented.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

No, my experience does not only involve Nigerians.



As stated, out of ~150, only 26 of us were descended from slavery. I went to Duke (to simplify things). You're more than welcomed to view our yearbook and see for yourself that the overwhelming majority of our Blk student body is 1st generation African or Caribbean (as I stated, from my experience).

I'm not retracting a correct statement. Go look at most med school classes. For most, I'd bet anything that of the URM population most are not "Regular Black." Also, HBCUs overwhelmingly have a very large "Regular Black" population. Non-HBCUs, like Ivies and other top institutions, tend to have a much larger % of immigrants representing the URM population, but a smaller number of students of color as compared to HBCUs. Furthermore, the stat you quoted only furthers my main point that this population of 1st generation immigrants is over-represented.

And how do these African immigrants have low stats? And what do you mean over-represented? You have no stats to back up your claim? Duke can't be used as your cause.

 

[TFK]

I find this to be the case, more often than not. But it also says something that many people don't know the difference between first generation African and "Regular" black, as in descendants of slaves. Black=black=black I am not opposed to them qualifying as URM, but one has to wonder if they are indeed underrepresented. I'm not first generation African, but what is their motivation for serving the urban minority populations if they haven't really been brought up in that enviornment? I would like to see those numbers, but again, I do not wish to divide us as we are such a small group already.

Many of these people have been brought up in that environment. Their parents are usually the ones who haven't been brought up in that environment, but the children who we are discussing have. African immigrants bring their children here while they are young so they still experience the same situations "regular" black students face. Even if they weren't, they face many of the same struggles that people in the urban minority populations have faced. I am personally the first generation child of African immigrants (I've never even been to Africa, and this is the case for many as well) and I was brought up in a very under served minority population. I faced the same struggles as the rest of my peers and I definitely want to give back to these communities. The high school I came from constantly struggled to meet educational state requirements and I was considered one of the "smart" kids. I did not consider myself smart, I just did the work which other students failed to do. When I got to college, I suffered greatly for the lack of preparation. In my high school, it wasn't about knowing the material, it was about completing the assignment. College was a different story. I am fed up with the system and hope to advocate for a higher sense of achievement in these communities. I personally want to encourage more URM students from these disadvantaged backgrounds to aim higher and not settle for less. I would also want to serve in these communities because I know the hardships they face--I have been there, as many of these first generation African students have.

 

[PinkIvy08]

And how do these African immigrants have low stats? And what do you mean over-represented? You have no stats to back up your claim? Duke can't be used as your cause.

Ummmm, I never claimed they had lower stats (I haven't even addressed stats in my posts!...that might have been someone else?). I was claiming they make up a larger percent of the Blk pre-med/med school population than they do in the general population (a claim untrad even supported).

This is the best I can find at the moment...I have other responsibilities to attend to other than searching the internet to find some article to support a claim easily backed up by looking at the names of any med school class.

 

[WhizoMD]

I'm not saying immigrants' children don't deserve to be able to qualify for URM (although I think they are now over-represented in the Blk US population), however I am strongly arguing that Blacks descended from slavery in America really are not progressing as a population. Other people of color are coming over, doing fine, and people look to that to say the past and current injustices are now irrelevant. Sad, but true.

Interesting........

I did some very crude calculations from wikipedia data XD :
~9.7% of the U.S. Black population are Immigrants (about 71% of this were Caribbean immigrants)
= ~1.2% of the U.S. population

Black West Indian Americans (Caribbean) had a college/graduate school enrollment ratio of about 35 ish % compared to the national average of 26.7%

And here's a snippet from Wikipedia (they do cite a journal article FWIW) about African Immigrants:

"In an analysis of Census Bureau data by the Journal of Blacks in higher education, African immigrants to the United States were found more likely to be college educated than any other immigrant group. African immigrants to the U.S. are also more highly educated than any other native-born ethnic group including white Americans. Some 48.9 percent of all African immigrants hold a college diploma. This is slightly more than the percentage of Asian immigrants to the U.S., nearly double the rate of native-born white Americans, and nearly four times the rate of native-born African Americans."


So, immigrants are succeeding despite, from my experience, facing the same disadvantages as non-immigrant blacks (socioeconomic problems, bad schools, prejudice etc., despite what you may think we grow up in the same situation as non-immigrant Blacks). This makes me wonder why the bolded statement is true.

I think this topic should be researched/discussed more (not really here, just in general)

Here's a good article on the issue:

http://tinyurl.com/yle3tat
-edit-
same one PinkIvy08 posted

And how do these African immigrants have low stats? And what do you mean over-represented? You have no stats to back up your claim? Duke can't be used as your cause.

African immigrants made up about ~.3% of the population, so it's not that hard to be over-represented

As for the low average stats; even though more of them go to college, they still faced the same challenges as non-immigrants leading up to college, so this may account for the lower stats. But, I agree, I don't know if they make up the majority of black med students (African + Caribbean immigrants likely do though).

 

[chelala]

Well, I stated that I am not African and posed the question out of respect because I do not know what kind of conditions they have grown up with. IN MY EXPERIENCE, 1st generation Africans identify more with groups like Asian Americans. We are culturally different because of our past. I am not trying to negate any of their experiences in innercities or being treated like regular ol' minorities.

 

[Untraditional]

I was claiming they make up a larger percent of the Blk pre-med/med school population than they do in the general population (a claim untrad even supported).

You said that the "majority of blacks at most colleges" were immigrants of one variety or another, a horrible generalization that was contradicted by facts. This is very different from what you have written above.

Its relevant because the perceptions that some seem to have of URMs are usually not borne out by the data. It's even more unfortunate that URM has become a code word for "black" in this tangent.

 

[PinkIvy08]

You said that the "majority of blacks at most colleges" were immigrants of one variety or another, a horrible generalization that was contradicted by facts. This is very different from what you have written above.

Its relevant because the perceptions that some seem to have of URMs are usually not borne out by the data. It's even more unfortunate that URM has become a code word for "black" in this tangent.

No...if you even look at the NYT article I posted you see that ~1/3 of Black students at top universities were descended from US slavery...that's a minority. If the other ~2/3 are 1st or 2nd generation immigrants, simply put, that's a majority. Haven't really changed my stance.

And URM becoming code for "black" started with the OP. I was just continuing from there since the OP was harping on AA benefitting from URM. Clearly, we all know URM includes Latinos and Native American students as well

 

[UnlonelyRoad]

What about low GPA, but with good life experiences, other degrees and possibly high MCAT . Chance possibly taken there? Because then I might start to see a teeny bit of hope in this unfathomably deep, dark, endless tunnel that is called Medical School Admissions.

I'm not gonna add to the debate here, but I would point out that you basically described my application right there and I got in fine.

 

[African]

This is also true, there will always be individuals that stray from the pack. But i'd rather look at the averages.

By that logic, you wouldnt let doctor Ben Carson operate on you, because he supposedly scored lower on usmle because he happens to be black, and stats show blacks score lower than whites or asians. what a twisted logic.

I wanna say this about the african immigrants, it is true african immigrants are overrepresented in ivy league universities, and top state universities as well, a study done by professor Louis Gates of harvard showed african immigrants are about 5% of blacks in the US and account for 25% of blacks in ivy league colleges. But to assume that they get in because of affirmative action is wrong, my cousin is in med school in a top ivy league college, he had 41 on mcat, and 4.0gpa, he told me most african immigrants in his school have similar stats, but are still looked down upon because they supposedly got in with lower points, he also says he pointedly avoids any discussion of the subject because he wants to identify with afro-americans who might have had lower points, for obvious reasons; racists would never differentiate between blacks anyway.

 

[glypha1104]

I didn't know colleges didn't offer tutoring, study groups, placement classes and such... also it's your job to fix what your highschool failed to teach you. It sucks but that's the price you pay when going to a crappy highschool. I don't mean to be crass but you kinda asked for it

FYI I'm first generation American too

At what point did I indicate that I don't put forth my best effort in regards to my studies? I simply provided a personal account of my particular difficulties.

 

[pyt0421]

After reading this forum I've had a slight change of heart. I personally don't really like the racism side of the pro-URM argument (asians/middle eastern people have to deal with racism that most are quite ignorant of) but I guess I would support URM simply because it does make sense. An URM student would more likely go back and serve their community.

A hispanic is much more likely to go back to a hispanic community to practice and an african american is much more likely to go back to an african american community. In addition, an URM physician is more culturally in tune with such communities so it does make sense they would be better health care providers.

 

[yearn4ivy]

At what point did I indicate that I don't put forth my best effort in regards to my studies? I simply provided a personal account of my particular difficulties.

His/her response is the definition of prejudice...making assumptions about your academic endeavors. Simply silly

Or a very poor understanding of what it means for a student to be underprepared.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Hey OP what do you think about white applicants having a higher % of acceptance than asians despite whites outnumbering asians 3 to 1.

Also your stat of 4309 people being hurt by not being URM is a crock of bull. Considering that only 2548 URMs are accepted or 13% of the Medclass. You basically made an equation that has no relevance.

Also by going by the 3 year chart and adjusting the data for 1 year about 1802 students that are ORM got in each year with MCATs being at or below 26 or about 70% of the URM seats or about 10% of the Medschool class.

 

[MegaSpectacular]

People like to quote a whole bunch of #'s in these debates. If you know anything about #'s you know that anyone can chose the #'s they want to best tell their story.

Reality is very simple.

People don't like reality, they like fantasy. They like, "it should be like ___." But few people can accept reality a keep on moving.

Reality is:

Some URM are very disadvantaged.
Some URMs are not disadvantaged at all.
Some URMs get into med school because they are URM.
Some non-URMs will not get into med school because of URMs.
The system is set up how it is set up, complaining, siting facts/figures, arguing, etc. does nothing.

So now you have the choice of focusing on what you can control (your application) and not what you can't (the system). Lets face it too, most of you don't care about the system. Once you gain acceptance will you write posts or write the AAMC about how non-URMs are being shafted? Nope. You will be thinking about yourself, applying to residency, studying for boards, etc. Call it what it is, fear of not getting into med school, don't call this a URM post. It should be renamed, "I'm afraid I won't get into med school and I think it is BS people with lower #'s might get in when I won't." There you go. Now you are in reality.

Last point, how bad do you have it?

Lets see, reading some #'s again. If you have a 3.6-3.79 and a 33 MCAT, you have a 83% chance of entrance. With a 3.8+ and 33 it moves to right around 90%.

Wow. How many people can get above a 3.6? Probably most of you complaining on this site, had you worked hard. So if you can just swing a 33 MCAT then you are 80%+ into medical school. Wow.

Do you not have a 33 and 3.6+? well whose fault is that? Could you have gotten a 3.6 if you really tried? What about a 33? I think you likely could have. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE URMs who got in with less. Whhaaa whaaaa whaaa. stop crying and go to work.

Looks like if you don't get in, it is your own fault. And even if it isn't, suck it up and try harder. Don't be babies.

Can you imagine if slaves had forums back 200 years ago.

"Hey guys, this sucks. I am a slave. I am beaten all the time and raped. I don't feel like this is fair. I ran some #'s and found out like 99% of non-URMs aren't slaves. I found out they aren't being whipped and worked without pay."

Now compare your 80% chance of acceptance with being beating the **** out of a few times a week and working without pay. hmmmm. not too bad of a life you got going on here. And wait... you can apply again if you don't succeed the first time? wow.

Action plan for the future:

A. Stop complaining
B. Work on my application and make myself better

Cool. Life is so much simpler now.

I always find it fascinating that some goofball makes posts like these revealing that URMs are getting in with lower stats and some non-URMs are being screwed. It amazes me that intelligent future doctors keep thinking they discovered the Theory of Relativity or something, and then they write a whole bunch of #'s to prove a point that everyone already knows.

 

[jturkel]

So now you have the choice of focusing on what you can control (your application) and not what you can't (the system). Lets face it too, most of you don't care about the system. Once you gain acceptance will you write posts or write the AAMC about how non-URMs are being shafted? Nope. You will be thinking about yourself, applying to residency, studying for boards, etc. Call it what it is, fear of not getting into med school, don't call this a URM post. It should be renamed, "I'm afraid I won't get into med school and I think it is BS people with lower #'s might get in when I won't." There you go. Now you are in reality.

it's thinking like that which stifles innovation/new ideas/imagination/revolutions/changes.

you think the pilgrims that came to America focused on what they could control and versus not? they said screw the system (AKA the King of England) and left...and established their own system

and lets go back to the first amendment on this one....if you dont like how things are going, free speech. while the system affects us, collectively, our opinions can affect the system if done properly.

not discussing things openly will never result in change...and then you are just controlled by the system. can't be passive. ever read one flew over the cuckoos nest? talk about getting run by the system and what one does who won't follow the system. or how about the government? hitler, mussolini, stalin....everyone just went with what was going on....no one spoke up....sooner than you know it....bam....communism/socialism.....obviously that is a bit more extreme than the matter at hand, but it supports my point about not speaking up and letting the system dictate your life.

lastly, your little rant at the end is totally uncalled for. bottom line, if you are personable and intelligent, the color of your skin or what country your ancestors come from should not dictate who gets into medical schools and who doesnt....after all, i don't want underqualified people taking care of my family or myself. and the system actually hurts those it benefits.....by creating this idea in many individuals' minds.....did so-and-so really get into medical school because they were intelligent or was it based on demographic/ethnic/racial factors?

certainly it is important to help fix the discrepancy in those represented in medicine, but not to the extreme that someone with a 3.0 and 21 mcat or 24 mcat gets into MD school because of ethnicity. last time i checked, a 21 was merely 23.7─28.3 percentile and 24 38.9─44.6 percentile. if you cant achieve decent mcat scores and a solid gpa.....medicine is just not for you....you shouldn't be in the position to take care of others....

and if you want, you can see my profile. i've gotten in places just fine. and i'm half URM (hispanic) but chose not to indicate it because i think the system is crap and i believe in getting in on my own merits....not on other stuff..

end my rant lol.

 

[jturkel]

oh, and while on the subject of mcat scores, i think that there should be a required passing score to be able to be considered for medical school.....the USMLEs have them....so should the MCAT. i mean, its hard, but its not THAT hard.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

it's thinking like that which stifles innovation/new ideas/imagination/revolutions/changes.

you think the pilgrims that came to America focused on what they could control and versus not? they said screw the system (AKA the King of England) and left...and established their own system

and lets go back to the first amendment on this one....if you dont like how things are going, free speech. while the system affects us, collectively, our opinions can affect the system if done properly.

not discussing things openly will never result in change...and then you are just controlled by the system. can't be passive. ever read one flew over the cuckoos nest? talk about getting run by the system and what one does who won't follow the system. or how about the government? hitler, mussolini, stalin....everyone just went with what was going on....no one spoke up....sooner than you know it....bam....communism/socialism.....obviously that is a bit more extreme than the matter at hand, but it supports my point about not speaking up and letting the system dictate your life.

lastly, your little rant at the end is totally uncalled for. bottom line, if you are personable and intelligent, the color of your skin or what country your ancestors come from should not dictate who gets into medical schools and who doesnt....after all, i don't want underqualified people taking care of my family or myself. and the system actually hurts those it benefits.....by creating this idea in many individuals' minds.....did so-and-so really get into medical school because they were intelligent or was it based on demographic/ethnic/racial factors?

certainly it is important to help fix the discrepancy in those represented in medicine, but not to the extreme that someone with a 3.0 and 21 mcat or 24 mcat gets into MD school because of ethnicity. last time i checked, a 21 was merely 23.7─28.3 percentile and 24 38.9─44.6 percentile. if you cant achieve decent mcat scores and a solid gpa.....medicine is just not for you....you shouldn't be in the position to take care of others....

and if you want, you can see my profile. i've gotten in places just fine. and i'm half URM (hispanic) but chose not to indicate it because i think the system is crap and i believe in getting in on my own merits....not on other stuff..

end my rant lol.

LOL at comparing AA at Medschools to Hitler and Stalin. How do you feel about DO's or FMG's? HBCU Medschools have MCATs and GPAs higher than many D.O schools. Those under qualified people have to pass the boards and the USMLE which is more important than undergrad grades.

Also how do you explain how 1802 ORM students get into US medschool with stats of a 26 MCAT at best and lower.

436 ORMS and about 702 URMS get in every year with MCATs of 23 and lower. Its not all about stats.

However I'm not all for URM since people may think I got in with lower stats than the median which is false but I see why its necessary.

 

[mipp0]

Presumably because they know they can get the same results for less. I suspect that many students and individuals do think that lower scores for URM are the result of primarily laziness. There are a good few who think genetics, but that group is diminishing. However, the laziness label is intriguing because of how many people actually believe this (that obviously will not outright say it). How does one measure "effort"? How does one determine what life obstacles are harder to overcome?

I will say that the comparison to Asians that have come here and started from scratch to African Americans is a faulty one that is easily made. Any course in sociology about race development in the US will point out that the disparity between the level of education and resources of Asians coming to the US was vastly different from the level of education and resources of Africans. Furthermore, because there was no real means for education to reliably improve for African Americans, the base level an African American would receive growing up in the US is below that that an Asian brings. In truth, Asians are the highest paid racial group in the US because they come to this country with plenty of wealth, it simply is rarely monetary so it takes one-two generations to cultivate. However, Asian groups have vast support systems, a strong cultural identity to pull from, and typically a family structure that is healthy and supportive. Few racial groups, black, white, mexican, or Native American, can claim such things.

But bringing this up on SDN is an exercise in futility. Some people are understandably angry and will not rest until they've made their injustice known, others are completely apathetic and couldn't care less. Either way, there are few minds to be changed here so why we continually bring up such antagonistic topics that do nothing but inflame everyone's emotions is beyond me.

I can't help but laugh at your sweeping generalization of the Asian lived experience. Large expanses of wealth and knowledge? Clearly you haven't studied the history of various Asian ethnic groups. I'm sorry, but there are more Asian immigrants outside of your professional immigrants from '65. And many DID NOT HAVE THIS WEALTH OR EDUCATION you speak of. Many, including myself, grew up in "ghettos" in broken abusive families without a "vast" support system.

My goodness man, your argument is terribly flawed. Hearing you argue is an exercise in futility.

 

[mipp0]

People like to quote a whole bunch of #'s in these debates. If you know anything about #'s you know that anyone can chose the #'s they want to best tell their story.

Reality is very simple.

People don't like reality, they like fantasy. They like, "it should be like ___." But few people can accept reality a keep on moving.

Reality is:

Some URM are very disadvantaged.
Some URMs are not disadvantaged at all.
Some URMs get into med school because they are URM.
Some non-URMs will not get into med school because of URMs.
The system is set up how it is set up, complaining, siting facts/figures, arguing, etc. does nothing.

So now you have the choice of focusing on what you can control (your application) and not what you can't (the system). Lets face it too, most of you don't care about the system. Once you gain acceptance will you write posts or write the AAMC about how non-URMs are being shafted? Nope. You will be thinking about yourself, applying to residency, studying for boards, etc. Call it what it is, fear of not getting into med school, don't call this a URM post. It should be renamed, "I'm afraid I won't get into med school and I think it is BS people with lower #'s might get in when I won't." There you go. Now you are in reality.

Last point, how bad do you have it?

Lets see, reading some #'s again. If you have a 3.6-3.79 and a 33 MCAT, you have a 83% chance of entrance. With a 3.8+ and 33 it moves to right around 90%.

Wow. How many people can get above a 3.6? Probably most of you complaining on this site, had you worked hard. So if you can just swing a 33 MCAT then you are 80%+ into medical school. Wow.

Do you not have a 33 and 3.6+? well whose fault is that? Could you have gotten a 3.6 if you really tried? What about a 33? I think you likely could have. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE URMs who got in with less. Whhaaa whaaaa whaaa. stop crying and go to work.

Looks like if you don't get in, it is your own fault. And even if it isn't, suck it up and try harder. Don't be babies.

Can you imagine if slaves had forums back 200 years ago.

"Hey guys, this sucks. I am a slave. I am beaten all the time and raped. I don't feel like this is fair. I ran some #'s and found out like 99% of non-URMs aren't slaves. I found out they aren't being whipped and worked without pay."

Now compare your 80% chance of acceptance with being beating the **** out of a few times a week and working without pay. hmmmm. not too bad of a life you got going on here. And wait... you can apply again if you don't succeed the first time? wow.

Action plan for the future:

A. Stop complaining
B. Work on my application and make myself better

Cool. Life is so much simpler now.

I always find it fascinating that some goofball makes posts like these revealing that URMs are getting in with lower stats and some non-URMs are being screwed. It amazes me that intelligent future doctors keep thinking they discovered the Theory of Relativity or something, and then they write a whole bunch of #'s to prove a point that everyone already knows.

Yes, oh wise one, clearly the #'s on the AAMC website are deliberately misleading.

I'm sorry, but not everyone can get over a 3.6, even if they "try hard", because there exists something called a curve. You should try harder making a valid argument versus belittling people who disagree with you.

You seem very cynical (I'm sure you are), but please don't speak for all of us. OP isn't complaining because he's "afraid" of not getting in. I'm sure he, along with many others, genuinely believes the admissions process can be improved to remedy some glaring flaws (such as the ones he's noted).

 

[Tatastrophy]

I'm sorry, but not everyone can get over a 3.6, even if they "try hard", because there exists something called a curve. You should try harder making a valid argument versus belittling people who disagree with you.

You seem very cynical (I'm sure you are), but please don't speak for all of us. OP isn't complaining because he's "afraid" of not getting in. I'm sure he, along with many others, genuinely believes the admissions process can be improved to remedy some glaring flaws (such as the ones he's noted).

First Point: Yes you absolutely can, if you want it badly enough. If medicine (and a 3.6+...which is absolutely doable) is what you what-you don't let something as inconsequential as a "curve" keep you down. Try harder.
Second Point: I see nothing cynical in urging you to take control of your life rather than blaming everything around you for your shortcomings. All he is saying is: Grab the damn bull by the horns, man and woman!

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Yes, oh wise one, clearly the #'s on the AAMC website are deliberately misleading.

I'm sorry, but not everyone can get over a 3.6, even if they "try hard", because there exists something called a curve. You should try harder making a valid argument versus belittling people who disagree with you.

You seem very cynical (I'm sure you are), but please don't speak for all of us. OP isn't complaining because he's "afraid" of not getting in. I'm sure he, along with many others, genuinely believes the admissions process can be improved to remedy some glaring flaws (such as the ones he's noted).

nobody of consequence finds these to be glaring flaws

 

[MegaSpectacular]

it's thinking like that which stifles innovation/new ideas/imagination/revolutions/changes.

you think the pilgrims that came to America focused on what they could control and versus not? they said screw the system (AKA the King of England) and left...and established their own system

Respect to the pilgrims. Why? They did something about it. They didn't go complain in a room, they found a problem they could DO something about. None of you are willing to go or do anything. After you are in medical school you won't complain until it hurts you again. Seriously, this thread doesn't exist in allopathic forums, why? everyone is in and since it doesn't affect them they don't care.

and lets go back to the first amendment on this one....if you dont like how things are going, free speech. while the system affects us, collectively, our opinions can affect the system if done properly.

not discussing things openly will never result in change...and then you are just controlled by the system. can't be passive. ever read one flew over the cuckoos nest? talk about getting run by the system and what one does who won't follow the system. or how about the government? hitler, mussolini, stalin....everyone just went with what was going on....no one spoke up....sooner than you know it....bam....communism/socialism.....obviously that is a bit more extreme than the matter at hand, but it supports my point about not speaking up and letting the system dictate your life.

All the "fighting the system" and free speech your talking about is different. These are people who care about something enough to devote their lives to changing it. You guys don't truly care about this issue. How much money have you raised to advance your ideas? None. How many organization have you began to advance your ideas? None. How many hours a week do you spend trying to spread the word? Little to none.

lastly, your little rant at the end is totally uncalled for. bottom line, if you are personable and intelligent, the color of your skin or what country your ancestors come from should not dictate who gets into medical schools and who doesnt....after all, i don't want underqualified people taking care of my family or myself. and the system actually hurts those it benefits.....by creating this idea in many individuals' minds.....did so-and-so really get into medical school because they were intelligent or was it based on demographic/ethnic/racial factors?

"if you are ____ then it should not ____". Dreamers. Idealist. You know what, men should not cheat on their wives. Republicans should always cooperate with democrats. No one should ever die of a curable disease.

We can do this all day. Lets find a bunch of shoulds. OR and this is novel...

we can think about things we actually have the power to do something about. Could you form a group that could affect this "system", sure. But do you have the backbone and passion for change? No. You know you don't.

certainly it is important to help fix the discrepancy in those represented in medicine, but not to the extreme that someone with a 3.0 and 21 mcat or 24 mcat gets into MD school because of ethnicity. last time i checked, a 21 was merely 23.7─28.3 percentile and 24 38.9─44.6 percentile. if you cant achieve decent mcat scores and a solid gpa.....medicine is just not for you....you shouldn't be in the position to take care of others....

I drop the same challenge to those applying. If they can't get a 3.6 and 33 MCAT, then medicine may not be for them. "Oh but all the blacks/hispanics don't have to get that", you say. Stop whining. If a person can't get B's and A's in your classes then lets be honest:

to those applying: were you really focused/disciplined/organized/intelligent in your approach? Probably not. You will probably say I made some errors that could have been avoided. Well, that is on you my friend. You had your chance but didn't do the best you could. And no, you weren't born in the easy group. Some people are born billionaires. They have some things in life easier than a guy born in the projects. There is no equality. Figure out what reality is and go to work. Stop whining.

The bar is lower for URMs. It is clear. You want the bar to be lower for everyone or higher for everyone. This is NOT reality.

and if you want, you can see my profile. i've gotten in places just fine. and i'm half URM (hispanic) but chose not to indicate it because i think the system is crap and i believe in getting in on my own merits....not on other stuff..

end my rant lol.

And your name is Pablo Francisco. But they had no idea what so ever you were half Hispanic. I see you got into your state school with a 3.9 and 36 (ok...), well yeah you didn't select URM, the % chance of your entrance is the same regardless of URM status.

Like a said, those who are whining go grab a 33/3.6+ and you have as good a chance an any URM.

 

[bookfreak89]

I can't help but laugh at your sweeping generalization of the Asian lived experience. Large expanses of wealth and knowledge? Clearly you haven't studied the history of various Asian ethnic groups. I'm sorry, but there are more Asian immigrants outside of your professional immigrants from '65. And many DID NOT HAVE THIS WEALTH OR EDUCATION you speak of. Many, including myself, grew up in "ghettos" in broken abusive families without a "vast" support system.

My goodness man, your argument is terribly flawed. Hearing you argue is an exercise in futility.

Hmmm....for every one Asian that lives the ghettos I wonder how many blacks and Hispanics there are that live there with broken abusive families and without a vast support system? Or maybe we should examine it the other way?

 

[MegaSpectacular]

Yes, oh wise one, clearly the #'s on the AAMC website are deliberately misleading.

The AAMC #'s aren't misleading. I'm saying when you present 1/100th of the data you can use it to make an argument. Just present the links instead of picking 5 or 6 statistics of the thousands that are on AAMC.

Everyone knows URMs have lower acceptance #'s. And ______ ? This is called reality. Something everyone knows and people keep complaining and doing nothing about.

I'm sorry, but not everyone can get over a 3.6, even if they "try hard", because there exists something called a curve. You should try harder making a valid argument versus belittling people who disagree with you.

Most classes I've seen about 30-40% of the class can get an A or B (sometimes more). So strive to be in the top 30-40%. You have to, URMs don't. Again, stop crying about how bad it is and just get into the top 30-40%.

You seem very cynical (I'm sure you are), but please don't speak for all of us. OP isn't complaining because he's "afraid" of not getting in. I'm sure he, along with many others, genuinely believes the admissions process can be improved to remedy some glaring flaws (such as the ones he's noted).

The OP won't do anything about this. You know what #'s I want to see. Follow up 1,2 and 3 years later after these people make these posts.

"what have you done since your post to advance this issue?"

A. I got into med school, I've been to busy
B. I didn't get into med school and kept applying, been to busy

Short answer: nothing.

How much money have you raised? How many organization have you started? How many letters have you written to the AAMC, what organizations have you found to back your written request?

Short answers: none, zero, zero, none.

Less talky talky, more walky walky. If one of you had the guts to make a website, start an organization, and get funding and support THEN I would be impressed. Invest some type of ingenuity or limited resource into it other than crying in forums. That won't happen though, reality is, you are just complainers.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Yes, oh wise one, clearly the #'s on the AAMC website are deliberately misleading.

I'm sorry, but not everyone can get over a 3.6, even if they "try hard", because there exists something called a curve. You should try harder making a valid argument versus belittling people who disagree with you.

You seem very cynical (I'm sure you are), but please don't speak for all of us. OP isn't complaining because he's "afraid" of not getting in. I'm sure he, along with many others, genuinely believes the admissions process can be improved to remedy some glaring flaws (such as the ones he's noted).

This is true which is why many people are accepted with numbers below this ORM and URM. Many people who reside in Cali place a great deal on education which is why those schools are hard to get into due to the cultural effect of placing education of great importance. Also in Cali state schools there is no AA (prop 206) while it may play some part in Medschool apps no state school in Cali has a total URM pop above 12% also the URM stats for these URMS or gasp!! above the average of accepted URMS!!!

 

[danascully]

I agree that the discussion on this thread is completely irrelevant and somewhat racist. I think most of us can agree that there is a glaring ethnic disparity in medicine, but just to highlight this with data from the AAMC see below:

Workforce data from 2007 reveal that of 973,524 nonfederal physicians in the United States and its territories, only 2% were African American, 3% Hispanic, 8% Asian, fewer than 1% American Indian, and 44% were white. As a point of definition, “nonfederal physicians” are allopathic (MD) and osteopathic physicians
(DO) who are not employed by the federal government; they account for 98% of the physician workforce (AAMC 2008).

With that said, here are some relevant statistics; the numbers of applicants versus matriculants in 2008 based on race:

African Americans: 3024 applications; 1144 matriculated (37.8%)
Asian Americans: 8279 apps; 3578 matriculated (43.2%)
Whites: 23813 apps; 10632 matriculated (44.6%)
Hispanics: 3086 apps; 1416 matriculated (45.9%)
American Indian: 131 apps; 58 matriculated (44.3%)

It seems to me like the percentage of acceptances is pretty leveled among race, save for hmm.. African Americans. In that year, only 14% of all US med school matriculates were URMs. And just to make the disparity still more clear, you have to take into account where URM's are matriculating. 17% of accepted African Americans enrolled in historically black universities, and 17% of hispanic applicants enrolled in the Puerto Rican medical schools, schools that you wouldn't even consider going to anyway. Therefore, no URM is taking your rightful spot.

Source: AAMC Data Warehouse: Race and Hispanic Origin of Matriculants 2002-2008.

 

[dingyibvs]

First Point: Yes you absolutely can, if you want it badly enough. If medicine (and a 3.6+...which is absolutely doable) is what you what-you don't let something as inconsequential as a "curve" keep you down. Try harder.
Second Point: I see nothing cynical in urging you to take control of your life rather than blaming everything around you for your shortcomings. All he is saying is: Grab the damn bull by the horns, man and woman!

The drive to work one's hardest within the current system and the desire to improve the current system are not mutually exclusive.

Also, it is absolutely not true that as long as you work hard you can get a 3.6/33. Maybe its different for your school, but it certainly isnt the case at most schools.

 

[MegaSpectacular]

Also, it is absolutely not true that as long as you work hard you can get a 3.6/33. Maybe its different for your school, but it certainly isnt the case at most schools.

So what is the GPA that is possible via hardwork?

Obviously some schools are tighter than others. But with:

A. The ability to chose your major
B. There being many classes that aren't science (Which are typically easier A's, hence sGPA is typically lower for applicants).

I know some people who rarely anyone would call "bright" that have 3.9 GPAs. Maybe my school isn't as challenging as others though, I will give you that.

I find it hard to belive though you are saying a person can't get half A's and B's. Are you saying via hardwork you can only achieve a 3.0 GPA, which means getting only B's and never receiving an A for some... again, I've never seen anything like that.

Last point, you chose your school. You could have chosen a state school and then grades wouldn't be so tight.

 

[Tatastrophy]

The drive to work one's hardest within the current system and the desire to improve the current system are not mutually exclusive.

Also, it is absolutely not true that as long as you work hard you can get a 3.6/33. Maybe its different for your school, but it certainly isnt the case at most schools.

I don't disagree with your first point but all that guy was doing was slinging blame around without acknowledging that they had a hand in their current situation.
I don't consider myself a genius by any means, and my school and major are pretty dang tough on the grades but I managed to do better than 3.6/33 while holding down 2 (or sometimes 3) jobs. Didn't do it by whining about it...that was my only point.

 

[dingyibvs]

I don't disagree with your first point but all that guy was doing was slinging blame around without acknowledging that they had a hand in their current situation.
I don't consider myself a genius by any means, and my school and major are pretty dang tough on the grades but I managed to do better than 3.6/33 while holding down 2 (or sometimes 3) jobs. Didn't do it by whining about it...that was my only point.

Hey now, dont sell yourself short, ypu're a pretty smart girl. My ex roommate is one of the hardest working ppl I know, but he never got an A in a science course. At the risk of sounding like Im bragging, here's an example.

We took a fairly easy science class together, and he would go to every class, take good notes, and spend extra time at home to review the materials after each class. He got a C on one test. I was lazy, didnt attend a single lecture, started studying at midnight the day of the test, had a good night of sleep, and got a perfect on the same test. On another test, I didnt attend any classes and only started flipping through the lecture slides an hour before the test. I didnt even get through all of them and I still got a higher score.

The point is that things are just difficult for some people, and if you tutor and teach a bit, youll find that out very quickly.

 

[ShhhDontTalk]

This argument is never going to end. In a way, it is pointless to argue over. It is what it is, whether you're against or in defense of the system, and people will not change their stances based on what other people are saying. But, is anyone a little bit irritated that a first-generation immigrant is complaining about US medical schools? If he has a problem with our system, why doesn't he go back to his homeland? Not to be disrespectful and all, but if you applied to a US medical school (and got accepted) with the hopes of achieving the best medical education possible, don't turn around and start dissing it. Quit the complaining already.

 

[mipp0]

I can't help but laugh at some of these comments.

I can't say I'm the hardest working dude, and I'm very lucky to attend a very fine, top tier institution. In the past, I didn't work very hard, didn't care, and didn't utilize the amazing resources at my school. I would study for one day and set the curve.

My friend...she's a great girl. She studies every day and works harder than 99.999% of people out there. She never gets above a B. If your grade was based on work ethnic, I should get an F, and she should get that A. She deserves it, no? I think she does.

At MY SCHOOL, only the top 10 - 15 % get As, sometimes top 5 - 10 % in some classes (other classes are much more generous). So no, I'm sorry, but some people, no matter how hard they try, can't get above a 3.6. Maybe at your school, it's an academic paradise where everyone can get 4.0s, but here in the real world, that just isn't the case. That's why a curve exists.

Oh my goodness, poor Asian Americans...they can't possibly exist. Asians never experience racism right?

http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/news-and-opinion/Asian-Students-Under-Assault.html

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Whitewash_in_South_Philly.html

Where's the public outcry?
Rather, where's the personal responsibility?

 

[mipp0]

This is an absolutely true statement, which is why it is best to compare African immigrants (highest-educated subgroup in the U.S.) and Asian immigrants. Unfortunately the data are not available for direct comparison, but the distribution of black accepted student MCAT scores does not appear obviously bimodal.

As for why I brought it up, I was not happy with URM consideration in general but in the past few months I have begun to understand it more (thanks to discussion with some members of SDN in private message) and come to accept, and even partially agree with, it. In the past week, however, I learned there exists a six point disparity in MCAT scores, which just seems like an enormous gap. Six points on the MCAT is not at all trivial and when you consider the population sizes, there appears to be huge racial bias involved.

Like dokein, I understand some URM students (and some ORM) have overcome some incredible odds and deserve special considerations when applying. Hey man, that goes without saying. But let's not make sweeping generalizations of the lived experiences of various ethnic groups. I too believe a 6 point MCAT disparity is too great, and these disparities create tension inside and outside of school. In a perfect world, we'd have a more case by case assessment of potential applicants...