A question about large dental school debt from an outsider.

[CloudBoi]

Before I start let me throw a disclaimer so no one's time is wasted. I’m someone who was dead set on med school and this past year I have explored two other healthcare careers and ended up deciding not to peruse either.

Enter dentistry. I’m not too familiar with general dentistry. I never gave it a chance. I started watching general dental procedures on YouTube. I quickly realized, ****, this isn’t all cosmetics, it’s all microsurgery. Cool!

So I will be shadowing general dentistry next week regardless of the answers provided below. Now for my questions.

I can’t go to public dental school since I live in Florida and UF is a tough school to get into. And that’s all we have.

So I look and realize that it’ll be about 520k of debt which should include interest and my undergrad debt.

How in gods name are people getting around this? I’m by no means looking at healthcare because of money, but holy smokes I don’t want to be living almost paycheck to paycheck. I grew up like that. And I don’t want that for my future family.

I hear the public options and even the military are very competitive as well to acquire for repayment help.

I have tried to understand on my own how people deal with the 550k debt. And I just don’t get it. This looks...dangerous? Are all of these people doing the military or some government-sponsored program? Are they going to corporate dentistry and getting incentive payment to their debts for a time commitment to the company?

I guess what I’m asking is, is there something here that I’m not seeing? Or is the situation really that bad?
So, should I even bother looking at dentistry seriously?


Again I apologize for having to say that, and I apologize for having to come off so arrogant but I’m struggling to see what people do who are forced to go OOS or private.

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[DMD12345]

Preaching to the choir. It’s really that bad

 

[DentalExpert]

Why do you think you can't get into UF? Also, there are many schools that offer in-state tuition after their first year if you reclassify so that can also help with such high costs. Yes, the cost today is absurdly high, which is why you should go into the field of dentistry actually having a passion for it, not just for the money. Scholarships are available and the military is definitely an option although competitive, but overall dental schools are very expensive.

 

[CloudBoi]

Why do you think you can't get into UF? Also, there are many schools that offer in-state tuition after their first year if you reclassify so that can also help with such high costs. Yes, the cost today is absurdly high, which is why you should go into the field of dentistry actually having a passion for it, not just for the money. Scholarships are available and the military is definitely an option although competitive, but overall dental schools are very expensive.

I would have to go get a masters for that. I don't have the GPA necessary to get into that school. And I know they're very strict about that having met someone who has both been to that school to learn about admissions and who eventually matriculated. She was a chem tutor of mine that worked for my uni.

Yes I have heard about schools like buffalo and Maryland doing that. Is there a list of schools that do that for OOS students?


I know that most graduate healthcare schools are up in price but this seems like a whole other league of debt to income ratio.

 

[CloudBoi]

Preaching to the choir. It’s really that bad

That's what I thought. Its a shame to completely disregard a profession based solely on how overpriced the schooling is. I get that med school is expensive but they have the income even at primary care to pay it back and live decently.

 

[PerioDont]

That's what I thought. Its a shame to completely disregard a profession based solely on how overpriced the schooling is. I get that med school is expensive but they have the income even at primary care to pay it back and live modestly.

Agreed. The sticker price for dental education esp at private schools is so absurd I cannot recommend anyone go if paying on student loans.

You will be an indentured servant just working for paying off your loans for years if not decades.

 

[CloudBoi]

Preaching to the choir. It’s really that bad

If im being honest im kinda feeling sad. i considered careers in podiatry and anesthesia midlevel care, and I'm moving back to wanting to go to medical school. A few months ago; I made a post here asking where my GPAs look to dental standards, and most people said I would be fine and to follow next steps. The profession seems really cool. Like a combo of family medicine and micro-ortho surgery. Huge bummer. Im going to shadow anyway just to see as much as possible.

 

[DMD12345]

If im being honest im kinda feeling sad. i considered careers in podiatry and anesthesia midlevel care, and I'm moving back to wanting to go to medical school. A few months ago; I made a post here asking where my GPAs look to dental standards, and most people said I would be fine and to follow next steps. The profession seems really cool. Like a combo of family medicine and micro-ortho surgery. Huge bummer. Im going to shadow anyway just to see as much as possible.

Fwiw, if you truly do love it, then it may be worth it. If you have a business acumen, you can do very well for yourself. Disclaimer: *not everyone will have what it takes. Not everyone will be a great business person or they may have other life impedances* Anyways… There’s a spectrum of types of people. On one end, there’re general dentist associateships and you’ll make $150k pre-taxes (ballpark), and on the other end there’re private practice specialists (and some generals) making $1-2M after 5-10 years of building and investments. It’s up to the individual to decide how hard they’re willing to hustle and what they want to do, assuming life doesn’t throw curveballs that screw you over.

 

[DMD12345]

Just checked out your previous post about your stats and I remember that! UF is super politically correct, so if you know how to jump through their hoop you can definitely get in with those stats. I know a girl who got in this cycle with a 3.5gpa 20dat (obviously not common, but it’s possible to get in with those stats). I have a family friend who’s a prof at UFCD and she talked to Sandow directly and she said their key focus is on people who show a passion for public health and volunteering. Go volunteer at the acorn clinic; I didn’t know about this til recently but apparently almost everyone who volunteers there gets into UFCD. Also prep really well for their interview; they’ll grill you. Hmu if you get an interview there and I’ll tell you about my experience

 

[CloudBoi]

I know im beating a dead horse at this point, but what's the reason for the absurd expenses? Whats causing this to happen ?

 

[DMD12345]

I know im beating a dead horse at this point, but what's the reason for the absurd expenses? Whats causing this to happen ?

The government’s allowing students to take out these absurdly high loans, and schools know this so they charge a lot, and more and more each year to see how much they can get away with. The government needs to limit the amount of loans available and not give them out like they’re candy, and the school’s tuition will correct accordingly. As usual, it’s the governments fault at the core

 

[Ivy.ch]

I know im beating a dead horse at this point, but what's the reason for the absurd expenses? Whats causing this to happen ?

Federal government signs any student loan checks, regardless of amount, so dental schools figure "why not increase tuition?". There are enough desperate pre-dents to fill the seats.

50% of dental students had family paying for school. At least it seemed like it. Most of them were dentist parents who were setting them up to take over the practice.

The other 50% are banking on income-based-repayment schemes to last their lifetime. And hoping to marry rich.

 

[CloudBoi]

Federal government signs any student loan checks, regardless of amount, so dental schools figure "why not increase tuition?". There are enough desperate pre-dents to fill the seats.

50% of dental students had family paying for school. At least it seemed like it. Most of them were dentist parents who were setting them up to take over the practice.

The other 50% are banking on income-based-repayment schemes to last their lifetime. And hoping to marry rich.

This is really unfortuate. Well, thanks to everyone for their replies I appreciate it.

 

[John Muir]

I am in a similar situation. When you count my undergrad and dental I am sitting at a horrendous $530k. The only way to do it is aggressively (Dave Ramsey Style in my opinion) If I slowly pay it off over 20-25 years I'll end up paying close to a million dollars - not an option in my opinion.

Based on my calculations I should be able to pay it off in 7 and a half years if I am only using my income (anticipated income of $170,000 which is higher than the average first-year graduate) while living a very modest life (2,500 - 3,000 per month in living expenses). Additionally, I plan to work at an FQHC so if I can apply and be accepted for the loan repayment a few times (50k tax free over two year) I can bring that down my total repayment time to a little under/around 5 years.

If you are going to graduate with 450k+ you have to be super aggressive and get a big income right out of school - you will likely have to move into a rural area of a state you don't like (Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, etc) where you can make a lot of money and get loan repayment. If you are going to graduate with 550k+ you have to really like dentistry and be OKAY living a very modest life for 8-10 years while you aggressively pay off your loans.

Let me just say that if I could go back in time knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go to dental school. Not because I dislike dentistry - I love it - but it is just too ******* expensive! I would have a much better life and standard of living if I had just gone to hygiene school.

Just my two cents!

 

[The Last Reclaimer]

There are many ways to go about this. You could do PSLF where you pay 10% of your income for 10 years and it gets forgiven if you work at a qualifying non-profit center (some people hate this type of environment). Boom, you pay maybe $200k and the rest is forgiven tax-free). You can do IBR which is 20 years I believe (you can work private practice/corporate) and pay 10% of your income each year for 20 years, then the rest is forgiven but you'll owe income tax on it (expect another $150k).

Keep in mind, you can work as a GP dentist right out of school so if you live somewhere with decent pay (midwest/south tend to pay 140-190k for new dentists). You can knock out $150k-250k over 3-5 years while you're medical counterparts are in residency. If you think about it this way then $550k dentistry loans are equivalent to 350k med school loans. As you probably know most med specialties make 250-450k so it's a little easier for them to pay it.

The military is usually a terrible deal (financially) for medicine but makes sense for dentistry if your debt is $550-700k like midwestern, NYU, USC, PNWU, etc.

Personally, if it was me I would move to Wisconsin (median is $220k) and you could probably hit that working more than full time even as a new associate. Just work like a dog for 3-4 years (which will still be easier than medical residency) and you could probably knock out all $550k and have some left over for a nice benz if that's what you're into.

Why doesn’t everyone do that then? I feel like if it were that simple, everyone with egregious debt loads would do it. I would appreciate if others on this thread could reply to this as well.

 

[CloudBoi]

I am in a similar situation. When you count my undergrad and dental I am sitting at a horrendous $530k. The only way to do it is aggressively (Dave Ramsey Style in my opinion) If I slowly pay it off over 20-25 years I'll end up paying close to a million dollars - not an option in my opinion.

Based on my calculations I should be able to pay it off in 7 and a half years if I am only using my income (anticipated income of $170,000 which is higher than the average first-year graduate) while living a very modest life (2,500 - 3,000 per month in living expenses). Additionally, I plan to work at an FQHC so if I can apply and be accepted for the loan repayment a few times (50k tax free over two year) I can bring that down my total repayment time to a little under/around 5 years.

If you are going to graduate with 450k+ you have to be super aggressive and get a big income right out of school - you will likely have to move into a rural area of a state you don't like (Iowa, Nebraska, Missouri, etc) where you can make a lot of money and get loan repayment. If you are going to graduate with 550k+ you have to really like dentistry and be OKAY living a very modest life for 8-10 years while you aggressively pay off your loans.

Let me just say that if I could go back in time knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go to dental school. Not because I dislike dentistry - I love it - but it is just too ******* expensive! I would have a much better life and standard of living if I had just gone to hygiene school.

Just my two cents!

Id appreciate your thoughts on The Last Reclaimer's and ibnalkamil1990s discussion. Have you considered these options?

 

[John Muir]

Id appreciate your thoughts on The Last Reclaimer's and ibnalkamil1990s discussion. Have you considered these options?

I have thought about PSLF, and was not a fan. The current rate of people who actually got their remaining loans forgiven was less than 1% Bleak New Stats For Public Service Loan Forgiveness — And A Potential Fix

There are two main issues I have with the PSLF. 1) You have to trust the federal government to follow through and not change their mind/run out of money. 2) From my understanding, your payments only qualify if they are under the income-driven repayment system - which does not even cover the interest on your debt in most cases. So by the time you are ready for repayment in 10 years, your debt has exploded and your odds of being accepted is around 1% - doesn't sound like a great deal.

I hate being in debt and I would rather just work hard and live modestly and pay it off in 5-7 years.

 

[doc toothache]

Federal government signs any student loan checks, regardless of amount, so dental schools figure "why not increase tuition?". There are enough desperate pre-dents to fill the seats.

50% of dental students had family paying for school. At least it seemed like it. Most of them were dentist parents who were setting them up to take over the practice.

The other 50% are banking on income-based-repayment schemes to last their lifetime. And hoping to marry rich.

There isn't even anecdotal evidence to suggest the "federal government" held a gun to any dental school enrollee's head forcing him/her to sign a promissory note for 500K+ for a DDS/DMD diploma. Perhaps we need to start looking in a mirror more often and then start pointing fingers.

 

[PerioDont]

There isn't even anecdotal evidence to suggest the "federal government" held a gun to any dental school enrollee's head forcing him/her to sign a promissory note for 500K+ for a DDS/DMD diploma. Perhaps we need to start looking in a mirror more often and then start pointing fingers.

I definitely agree that there is personal responsibility. Every applicant needs to look at a cost breakdown and see how they will pay it back prior to applying to any school.

However, the schools and partially the government ARE to blame for allowing this to happen. We don't give a 400k house loan to 22 year olds with no credit history or car loan etc. With the marketing and info campaigns with IBR etc the schools have created the situation where students are borrowing 500k

 

[CloudBoi]

If I were to attend say UNE's dental school which the total cost comes out to be 401,145 according to the ADEA guide, does that include compounded interest from years spent in dental school or no? If it doesn't, what's the estimate that'll come after the interest is added, 500,000? 550,000? I know that's a stupid question but that's why I'm here.

People seem to be going to dental schools that cost this much anyway, and I just can't imagine ALL of them are going the military route or have rich parents. Im really bummed that this field feels like it is only obtainable to certain hard-working people in the right scenarios. For example, if you're from Arizona, you literally have to move.

 

[ibnalkamil1990]

If I were to attend say UNE's dental school which the total cost comes out to be 401,145 according to the ADEA guide, does that include compounded interest from years spent in dental school or no? If it doesn't, what's the estimate that'll come after the interest is added, 500,000? 550,000? I know that's a stupid question but that's why I'm here.

People seem to be going to dental schools that cost this much anyway, and I just can't imagine ALL of them are going the military route or have rich parents. Im really bummed that this field feels like it is only obtainable to certain hard-working people in the right scenarios. For example, if you're from Arizona, you literally have to move.

Umm... you do realize that 80%+ of med/dental students DO come from rich parents (at least half are doctors themselves or 200k+/year income). This could be 80% at one school, 95% at another and 40% at another, but overall the majority are wealthy. When I did a medical mission abroad the students were SHOCKED that not all of my group had doctor parents, it's like that everywhere in the world for the most part.

oped1-1502.pdf (ama-assn.org)
to save you the read
"The AAMC explains that the percentage of medical students from families in the highest quintile of household income has not dropped below 48 percent since 1987—half of students come from the richest 20 percent of the population—while the percentage of students from the lowest quintile has never risen above 5.5 percent"

Keep in mind that income is misleading. It's possible that another 20-30% of these students' parents are older and dropped to working part-time and therefore their income is 150-200k but have $8m+ net worths. So it's definitely more than the 55-60% they report. This also doesn't include AACOMAS or Caribbean schools (seems to be rich parents who have no problem risking $500k for their kid's MD)

This translates into

1. no undergrad debt
2. borrow less than full COA (parents might pay rent/car/food or just tuition or maybe 1/2 of everything)
3. parents cover everything
4. high stats (due to lots of resources)--> scholarships
5. large inheritance (some even just know this is coming so they don't bother to save. One kid in my class inherited 3 paid-off homes from his grandparents that he rents out for $60k/year.

Second, don't look at any guides from the ADEADA or LMNOXP. Pull up your school's tuition + fees (non-negotiable costs) and then calculate rent/food/car/misc (could be $15k if you live in a basic apartment or $30k/year if you want a luxury apartment). My COA could be $300k if I decide to do all 4 years at our home hospital or $350k if I go to a "better hospital" in the city where rent is double.

Then figure out the interest rate (let's assume 6%).

You can do year by year or just estimate
Year 1 60k +0.06% + 0.06% + 0.06% + 0.06%
Year 2 60k +0.06% + 0.06% + 0.06%
Year 3 60k +0.06% + 0.06%
Year 4 60k +0.06%

Life isn't fair. You can compare and complain or you can buckle down and work 1.5-2x as many hours as your peers while you're young so you can build a large nest egg for your family so that one day your kids can live out their dreams debt free.

 

[deleted903013]

There isn't even anecdotal evidence to suggest the "federal government" held a gun to any dental school enrollee's head forcing him/her to sign a promissory note for 500K+ for a DDS/DMD diploma. Perhaps we need to start looking in a mirror more often and then start pointing fingers.

No, we need to point the finger at the culprits, the dental schools and the government. This is why we go after the drug dealers more than the drug users. Our student loan debt is larger than the GDP of almost every major country, this is a predation problem. Let me tell you, >90% of pre dents do not have the financial knowledge to make a half million dollar decision that will haunt them for the rest of their lives. Almost all of these pre dents have never even held a full time job or paid taxes. They should by no means even be allowed to take on this kind of debt. Blaming them for a system that failed them is wrong. Our entire education higher education system is an abject failure that lies at the hands of the government and schools.

 

[doc toothache]

I definitely agree that there is personal responsibility. Every applicant needs to look at a cost breakdown and see how they will pay it back prior to applying to any school.

However, the schools and partially the government ARE to blame for allowing this to happen. We don't give a 400k house loan to 22 year olds with no credit history or car loan etc. With the marketing and info campaigns with IBR etc the schools have created the situation where students are borrowing 500k

Every applicant/enrollee has looked at the investment and figured it will be a breeze paying back the loan since they expect to be paid 1 mil/year working 3 days a week. There aren't very many 22-year-olds, with or without a credit history, knocking on banker's doors asking for a 400K to buy a house. In the case of dental education, you can bet your bottom nickel that the bean counters have more than adequately done their homework.
We expect state of the art clinical facilities with a computer or two, digital x-ray sensors in every operatory, 3D imaging, CAD-CAM and other expensive toys and then we wonder why the cost of dental education is so high.
Federal and State governments can be faulted for abdicating their role/responsibility for post secondary education and have systematically switched the responsibility of education to the individual.

 

[TanMan]

Before I start let me throw a disclaimer so no one's time is wasted. I’m someone who was dead set on med school and this past year I have explored two other healthcare careers and ended up deciding not to peruse either.

Enter dentistry. I’m not too familiar with general dentistry. I never gave it a chance. I started watching general dental procedures on YouTube. I quickly realized, ****, this isn’t all cosmetics, it’s all microsurgery. Cool!

So I will be shadowing general dentistry next week regardless of the answers provided below. Now for my questions.

I can’t go to public dental school since I live in Florida and UF is a tough school to get into. And that’s all we have.

So I look and realize that it’ll be about 520k of debt which should include interest and my undergrad debt.

How in gods name are people getting around this? I’m by no means looking at healthcare because of money, but holy smokes I don’t want to be living almost paycheck to paycheck. I grew up like that. And I don’t want that for my future family.

I hear the public options and even the military are very competitive as well to acquire for repayment help.

I have tried to understand on my own how people deal with the 550k debt. And I just don’t get it. This looks...dangerous? Are all of these people doing the military or some government-sponsored program? Are they going to corporate dentistry and getting incentive payment to their debts for a time commitment to the company?

I guess what I’m asking is, is there something here that I’m not seeing? Or is the situation really that bad?
So, should I even bother looking at dentistry seriously?


Again I apologize for having to say that, and I apologize for having to come off so arrogant but I’m struggling to see what people do who are forced to go OOS or private.

520k of debt is a lot from the perspective of a student. Once you become a dentist, the debt becomes a lot more palatable, as long as you are willing to produce and go into ownership. I don't understand the mentality of people to look into loan forgiveness programs, when the answer is pretty simple - be efficient, work smart/hard, start your own practice.

The situation isn't that bad, the more vocal crowd tends to be the "sky is falling" crowd - even those that have done well in dentistry, . If you have a good practice, that debt goes away within a year. Take it from me - I used to think my debt was horrible (as a student), but when I graduated and got an associate job, it didn't seem as bad, then when I became an owner, the debt was barely a dent in my cash flow.

 

[ESPN907]

I have thought about PSLF, and was not a fan. The current rate of people who actually got their remaining loans forgiven was less than 1% Bleak New Stats For Public Service Loan Forgiveness — And A Potential Fix

There are two main issues I have with the PSLF. 1) You have to trust the federal government to follow through and not change their mind/run out of money. 2) From my understanding, your payments only qualify if they are under the income-driven repayment system - which does not even cover the interest on your debt in most cases. So by the time you are ready for repayment in 10 years, your debt has exploded and your odds of being accepted is around 1% - doesn't sound like a great deal.

I hate being in debt and I would rather just work hard and live modestly and pay it off in 5-7 years.

You are sadly mistaken, PSLF is actually a great option…do some more research and you may change your mind

 

[TanMan]

You are sadly mistaken, PSLF is actually a great option…do some more research and you may change your mind

How long do you have to work to qualify for PSLF and what's the compensation of someone who works under PSLF?

 

[ibnalkamil1990]

520k of debt is a lot from the perspective of a student. Once you become a dentist, the debt becomes a lot more palatable, as long as you are willing to produce and go into ownership. I don't understand the mentality of people to look into loan forgiveness programs, when the answer is pretty simple - be efficient, work smart/hard, start your own practice.

The situation isn't that bad, the more vocal crowd tends to be the "sky is falling" crowd - even those that have done well in dentistry, . If you have a good practice, that debt goes away within a year. Take it from me - I used to think my debt was horrible (as a student), but when I graduated and got an associate job, it didn't seem as bad, then when I became an owner, the debt was barely a dent in my cash flow.

Not everyone wants to work 6-7 days a week and be a salesman. PSLF can be great for someone with $600k loans who wants to live in SF/NYC and make $120k/year.

I agree with you that working like a dog is better for building wealth, but some people value their free time and mental health more. I plan on moonlighting during residency (hitting 80 hours) and then working extra shifts as an attending (Even tho I would technically have 5-6 years of PSLF during it).

 

[TanMan]

Not everyone wants to work 6-7 days a week and be a salesman. PSLF can be great for someone with $600k loans who wants to live in SF/NYC and make $120k/year.

I agree with you that working like a dog is better for building wealth, but some people value their free time and mental health more. I plan on moonlighting during residency (hitting 80 hours) and then working extra shifts as an attending (Even tho I would technically have 5-6 years of PSLF during it).

That does make sense if the goal is to make 120k/year in a saturated city. However, you don't have to work 6-7 days a week to be able to pay that amount of debt relatively quickly unless you are slow and/or undercompensated. Paying off 500k+ is doable in a 4-5 day/week, given the right opportunity or area.

I do think it's sad that people would choose to live a life of mediocrity for one or more reasons; if you're stuck living in an area that limits dental income at around 120k (or even 200k) and you absolutely must live there, I'd definitely recommend a different profession.

I'm in the minority here that advocates going to dental school if you have a plan to make tons of money. If you're lazy, non-proactive, geographic limited, passive, not willing to present treatment, or have other mental roadblocks that prevent you from making a lot of money, don't go into this profession. Knowing yourself and your weaknesses should be the first step on answering the question: should I accumulate x debt to become a dentist?

 

[John Muir]

You are sadly mistaken, PSLF is actually a great option…do some more research and you may change your mind

Care to elaborate exactly how I am mistaken?
1) do you not have to put your faith in the federal government? 2) Will your income-driven repayment cover the interest on $530k?
Or is my opinion that I would rather pay it off fast than be in debt any longer than necessary wrong?

 

[ibnalkamil1990]

I'm in the minority here that advocates going to dental school if you have a plan to make tons of money. If you're lazy, non-proactive, geographic limited, passive, not willing to present treatment, or have other mental roadblocks that prevent you from making a lot of money, don't go into this profession. Knowing yourself and your weaknesses should be the first step on answering the question: should I accumulate x debt to become a dentist?

I agree with you but for many people a life of $120k income even with $500k debt beats the quality of life of $60k income with little to no debt. The average American only cares about immediate comfort (that's why most people lease or trade-in relatively new cars every 3 years), etc.

 

[ibnalkamil1990]

Care to elaborate exactly how I am mistaken?
1) do you not have to put your faith in the federal government? 2) Will your income-driven repayment cover the interest on $530k?
Or is my opinion that I would rather pay it off fast than be in debt any longer than necessary wrong?

No offense but you people sound like you're wearing tinfoil hats. The government CANNOT just pull the rug out from underneath you if you signed a master promissory note MPN that mentions PSLF 100% debt forgiveness after 10 years.

IF PSLF was to be removed/adjusted then the wording would be reflected in NEW MPN and individuals who signed the old one would be grandfathered in.

Example: If you're a second year student with $200k debt in 2021 and congress changes the law in 2022 to limit PSLF to 50k then ALL loans disbursed prior to the change would still qualify for the 100% forgiveness, and any loans AFTER 2022 would qualify only for 50k limit.

I don't like the government any more than you and I think they're very inefficient in many ways. However, this program in particular works and has worked for many. If you keep reading those sensationalized fake headlines that 99% got declined (go read how/why most of them didn't qualify) then you're not smart enough to be a professional - read the details.

 

[John Muir]

No offense but you people sound like you're wearing tinfoil hats. The government CANNOT just pull the rug out from underneath you if you signed a master promissory note MPN that mentions PSLF 100% debt forgiveness after 10 years.

IF PSLF was to be removed/adjusted then the wording would be reflected in NEW MPN and individuals who signed the old one would be grandfathered in.

Example: If you're a second year student with $200k debt in 2021 and congress changes the law in 2022 to limit PSLF to 50k then ALL loans disbursed prior to the change would still qualify for the 100% forgiveness, and any loans AFTER 2022 would qualify only for 50k limit.

I don't like the government any more than you and I think they're very inefficient in many ways. However, this program in particular works and has worked for many. If you keep reading those sensationalized fake headlines that 99% got declined (go read how/why most of them didn't qualify) then you're not smart enough to be a professional - read the details.

Very insightful

 

[ESPN907]

How long do you have to work to qualify for PSLF and what's the compensation of someone who works under PSLF?

Minimum 30hrs/week, 10 years, compensation depends on many factors but physicians that work at 501(c)(3) hospitals obviously have the best compensation…

 

[ESPN907]

Care to elaborate exactly how I am mistaken?
1) do you not have to put your faith in the federal government? 2) Will your income-driven repayment cover the interest on $530k?
Or is my opinion that I would rather pay it off fast than be in debt any longer than necessary wrong?

Educate yourself, sir.

Why the PSLF Success Rate Will Hit Over 50% by 2024

Only 864 people out of over 73,000 have been approved for PSLF through mid 2019. Here's why the PSLF success rate will exponentially explode.

www.studentloanplanner.com

 

[TanMan]

Minimum 30hrs/week, 10 years, compensation depends on many factors but physicians that work at 501(c)(3) hospitals obviously have the best compensation…

If the compensation is good, then it sounds like a great deal. If it's 120k-ish, you have to factor in the difference between 10 years of private sector/non-PSLF pay v. 10 years of PSLF pay + loan forgiveness - applicable taxes

 

[TanMan]

I agree with you but for many people a life of $120k income even with $500k debt beats the quality of life of $60k income with little to no debt. The average American only cares about immediate comfort (that's why most people lease or trade-in relatively new cars every 3 years), etc.

The debt load of 500k in a 120k earner greatly affects post tax disposable income, which affects the lifestyle we can afford. I don't see it as having a relatively better lifestyle, as I would prefer to look at it in terms of having an absolutely better lifestyle. I still wouldn't be happy if my counterpart was living in a cardboard box whereas I had a shack. We would still both be poor and the counterpart's misery brings me no joy.

With everything going on, I think people should be aiming for at least 500k per year to live a reasonably good life.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

The government CANNOT just pull the rug out from underneath you if you signed a master promissory note MPN that mentions PSLF 100% debt forgiveness after 10 years.

There’s nothing in the MPN that says they won’t consider the forgiven balance as taxable income. All that’s needed is a change to the tax code and lots of people will be screwed.

Big Hoss

 

[ibnalkamil1990]

There’s nothing in the MPN that says they won’t consider the forgiven balance as taxable income. All that’s needed is a change to the tax code and lots of people will be screwed.

Big Hoss

Fair enough but republicans couldn't make any adjustments to PSLF under trump even if they tried (heck, half of them don't want to piss off their constituents). So PSLF won't be harmed by Biden, and even if a Republican wins in 2024 it's doubtful.

 

[TanMan]

There’s nothing in the MPN that says they won’t consider the forgiven balance as taxable income. All that’s needed is a change to the tax code and lots of people will be screwed.

Big Hoss

People have too much faith in the government. What's on the law books v. administrative bureaucracies/policies don't always coincide with each other.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

People have too much faith in the government.

This. Always this.



Here’s a timely, shining example of government bureaucracy at its finest! Literally half a trillion dollars thrown away. This is why we can’t have nice things.

Half of the pandemic's unemployment money may have been stolen

Much of the money has probably left the country.

www.axios.com

Big Hoss

 

[LizLemongrab]

Care to elaborate exactly how I am mistaken?
1) do you not have to put your faith in the federal government? 2) Will your income-driven repayment cover the interest on $530k?
Or is my opinion that I would rather pay it off fast than be in debt any longer than necessary wrong?

If you look at the under 300 people who got their PSLF completed, you'll notice that they actually had qualifying payments under the correct type of loan and employment and got recertified every year with letters from the government approving that round of payments. Most of the people who apply do not have the qualifying employment or time.

It's 120 qualifying payments with verification of full time qualifying employment otherwise every schmuck would do dental school faculty or hospital attending part time against majority private practice to have the majority of their debt forgiven. I think it's really nasty that a lot of the places where employment would qualify also mostly only offer part time because those places don't want to pay for benefits that would be required under full time (hospitals and schools, looking at y'all).

 

[New_Vegas]

There isn't even anecdotal evidence to suggest the "federal government" held a gun to any dental school enrollee's head forcing him/her to sign a promissory note for 500K+ for a DDS/DMD diploma. Perhaps we need to start looking in a mirror more often and then start pointing fingers.

Lol you can't blame students for the high cost of dental school. THe government really literally is the cause of the absurdly high costs. Students have the choice whether or not they go, but the government is the 100% the reason why the costs are so high.

 

[deleted903013]

Lol you can't blame students for the high cost of dental school. THe government really literally is the cause of the absurdly high costs. Students have the choice whether or not they go, but the government is the 100% the reason why the costs are so high.

It's patently absurd. Imagine blaming the opioid crisis on the victims instead of the pharmaceutical companies or physicians who over prescribe opioids. The student loan crisis is a systematic failure with 18 years olds with no life experiences as the victims. Blaming them for a system that failed them is ridiculous.

 

[New_Vegas]

It's patently absurd. Imagine blaming the opioid crisis on the victims instead of the pharmaceutical companies or physicians who over prescribe opioids. The student loan crisis is a systematic failure with 18 years olds with no life experiences as the victims. Blaming them for a system that failed them is ridiculous.

Doc toothache is probably a boomer who can't possibly accept the fact that his generation completely screwed over our generation. I think it's hilarious, their generation squeezed all of the money out of past and future generations, and now they try to blame younger generations for the horrible state of current affairs.

 

[doc toothache]

It's patently absurd. Imagine blaming the opioid crisis on the victims instead of the pharmaceutical companies or physicians who over prescribe opioids. The student loan crisis is a systematic failure with 18 years olds with no life experiences as the victims. Blaming them for a system that failed them is ridiculous.

Right. We should be blaming the coca and poppy farmers and “distributors “ for the use/abuse of cocaine and morphine/heroin. About 95 K die each year from alcohol related causes. Natural and semi synthetic, cocaine, and heroin each claim about 15K; ~35K from synthetic opioids; ~40K in car accidents.

 

[2TH MVR]

Doc toothache is probably a boomer who can't possibly accept the fact that his generation completely screwed over our generation. I think it's hilarious, their generation squeezed all of the money out of past and future generations, and now they try to blame younger generations for the horrible state of current affairs.

Every generation has their positive and negative societal contributions. I agree that there have been some gov't policy manipulation (wanting everybody to go to college, blank student loan checks, etc. etc.) that has failed the younger generation. But. I also believe that individuals need to be responsible for their own actions also. You guys speak of these college kids who have no financial experience. 4 yrs of college and they didn't pick up anything on economics? I mean we aren't talking about a bunch of dumb college kids. These kids are smart enough to attend dental and medical school, but aren't smart enough to know that you don't go out and OVERPAY for a Ferrari and FINANCE it for 20 years with a high interest loan.

 

[NITRAS]

Lol you can't blame students for the high cost of dental school. THe government really literally is the cause of the absurdly high costs. Students have the choice whether or not they go, but the government is the 100% the reason why the costs are so high.

I disagree that the cost of eduction doesn’t fall, at least partially, on the student. I’d agree that 18-24 y/os are basically stupid, and have a poor grasp of what a high student loan burden is, but it doesn’t absolve them of poor decisions, either.

 

[deleted903013]

4 yrs of college and they didn't pick up anything on economics? I mean we aren't talking about a bunch of dumb college kids. These kids are smart enough to attend dental and medical school, but aren't smart enough to know that you don't go out and OVERPAY for a Ferrari and FINANCE it for 20 years with a high interest loan.

Pretty much. I learned zero economics or finance during my undergraduate degree. The skills I learned in undergrad don't really apply to the real world. I didn't really get a sense of personal finance until I took a gap year and worked full time for a year. That year of work matured me immensely.

I disagree that the cost of eduction doesn’t fall, at least partially, on the student. I’d agree that 18-24 y/os are basically stupid, and have a poor grasp of what a high student loan burden is, but it doesn’t absolve them of poor decisions, either.

They've been bombarded with college brainwashing their entire lives. Every TV show and every adult i trusted basically said not going to college wasn't an option. I was subjected to it and blindly figured a college degree was my ticket to a good job regardless of cost. I mean our brains don't even fully develop until we're 25, it should not even be legal for an 18 year old to take out $100,000 in student loans for an english degree. Our student loan debt is larger than the entire GDP of Russia, this is clearly a systematic issue that falls on the part of the predators, not the victims.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Our student loan debt is larger than the entire GDP of Russia, this is clearly a systematic issue that falls on the part of the predators, not the victims.

What would you expect from an industry run by liberals. Kidding...but, not kidding.

Liberal professors outnumber conservatives 12 to 1: Study

Students at America’s top universities are nearly 12 times more likely to have a liberal professor than a conservative one in the classroom, a new study shows.

www.washingtontimes.com

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

The skills I learned in undergrad don't really apply to the real world.

But, you’re so much more woke than you would have been otherwise! I bet your ability to virtue signal is at least 7x that of non-college grads.

Big Hoss