a question about ranking

[noobin]

i think i understand the ranking algorithm. and yaah has said several times, rank the programs in the order that you'd want to go there.
there's something i don't get though.

i know this girl that matched last year. one of the programs she interviewed sort of gave her a "we'll only rank you first if you rank us first."
so my question is, even if the applicant wasn't going to rank them first, why wouldn't the program still rank her first if they really wanted her?
is there some disadvantage for a program to rank an applicant highly that is not going to rank them highly?

sorry if this is a dumb question.

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[cytoborg]

Programs don't know how you're ranking them - no one sees your rank list except you. Saying "we'll rank you first if you rank us first" would basically be attempting to bribe/trick a candidate into ranking them highly. Some programs pride themselves on not having to delve very deep into their rank list to fill their class.

In an ideal world, both candidates and programs would rank each other solely based on preferences!

 

[yaah]

Yeah - there are some programs who don't really play by the rules. They "look better" if they only have to go down to #15 on their rank list, for example, than if they go to #50.

Thus, a program will sometimes attempt to ascertain whether candidates are going to rank them first. If they have a number of candidates that they like, they may take a chance and do something like this. If they have a candidate that they really like and really want, they may not issue such an ultimatum. The problem they run into is if they do this with more candidates than they have spots.

It isn't legal, they aren't technically allowed to do this. They can tell you if they are ranking you first, and you can as well, but neither party can ask.

You may run afoul of people if they ask "Are you ranking us first" and you say yes, and then proceed to not match there. So I wouldn't recommend that. But you don't have to tell them anything. If they insist on you telling them where you are ranking them, that is a match violation.

But yes, cytoborg is right. A residency program would love to be able to say "we only went down to #10 on our rank list" and some will skirt the rules to try to make that happen. What it really means to them, I don't know, perhaps they can use it to try to recruit future applicants...

 

[RyMcQ]

But yes, cytoborg is right. A residency program would love to be able to say "we only went down to #10 on our rank list" and some will skirt the rules to try to make that happen. What it really means to them, I don't know, perhaps they can use it to try to recruit future applicants...

The residents in my program (identity withheld to protect the guilty) actually got a vote toward the ranklist. I was so aggravated when we would rank an excellent candidate lower because we thought we had a small chance of him/her coming. Programs that do this only hurt themselves (other than the bragging rights to only go 5 down the rank list).

Lesson for applicants: It always serves your self-interest to act like you think the city and program are the best. If they rank you high and you decide not to go, it doesn't hurt you or them. If you don't play the game, but decide at the last minute that you liked a certain program best, they may have ranked you down the list because you didn't express enough interest.

Stupid, but true.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

It isn't legal, they aren't technically allowed to do this. They can tell you if they are ranking you first, and you can as well, but neither party can ask.
You may run afoul of people if they ask "Are you ranking us first" and you say yes, and then proceed to not match there. So I wouldn't recommend that. But you don't have to tell them anything. If they insist on you telling them where you are ranking them, that is a match violation.

What recommendations do the veterans have for us in terms of how we should respond when confronted with that question. I was just gonna say something non-commital such as, "I am strongly interested in your program; however, I honestly won't have an good impression of my ROL until I finish all my interviews." Are there other things we can say? Clearly we would want programs to rank us highly because if we weren't interested in those places, why would we take the time to interview at those places, right?

 

[geddy]

A residency program would love to be able to say "we only went down to #10 on our rank list" and some will skirt the rules to try to make that happen. What it really means to them, I don't know, perhaps they can use it to try to recruit future applicants...

Or perhaps the PD likes to see this happen to make him/her look better to the deparment chair or some otehr bigwig.

 

[yaah]

Just do what they do.

Q: Where are you going to rank us?
A: I was very impressed by your program and will be ranking you highly.

or: "You are one of my top choices"

I usually said I hadn't made up my final impressions yet. You can also just not answer the question. There are lots of considerations - program size, program location, whatever, that do play roles, and can make the final rank order list tough. If you have a for sure #1 though it doesn't hurt to tell them that.

What recommendations do the veterans have for us in terms of how we should respond when confronted with that question. I was just gonna say something non-commital such as, "I am strongly interested in your program; however, I honestly won't have an good impression of my ROL until I finish all my interviews." Are there other things we can say? Clearly we would want programs to rank us highly because if we weren't interested in those places, why would we take the time to interview at those places, right?

 

[noobin]

You may run afoul of people if they ask "Are you ranking us first" and you say yes, and then proceed to not match there. So I wouldn't recommend that.

I'm sure people have done this in the past, as part of playing this 'game'. Besides having the PD dissapointed post-match, what disadvantages would there be to an applicant responding 'yes' to an 'are you ranking us first' question, if it really is a top choice. I'm sure there are times when people convinced on their rank list, then change it last minute. I guess the program you didn't match at gets really mad?

 

[yaah]

I'm sure people have done this in the past, as part of playing this 'game'. Besides having the PD dissapointed post-match, what disadvantages would there be to an applicant responding 'yes' to an 'are you ranking us first' question, if it really is a top choice. I'm sure there are times when people convinced on their rank list, then change it last minute. I guess the program you didn't match at gets really mad?

I have no doubt in my mind people have done this. But I just think it is ethically questionable, at best. Of course, you could look at it that it is ethically questionable for them to be even asking you this question. I personally never had a program ask where I was ranking them. They did ask what my thoughts about the program were, how their program compared to others, questions like that. A couple also told me that if I was interested in the program, I needed to "keep in touch" and let them know I was interested, because they didn't want to spend time worrying about ranking candidates who weren't interested. I think these are reasonable requests, but still kind of a cop out.

If you end up applying for fellowships, you may regret lying to certain programs. As well, path is a small field and people know each other, and if you told PD X that you were ranking them first and didn't end up there, you may find that PD X and an attending at the program you are matched at just happen to be collaborating on a significant research project.

Thus, I never lied. I told them I was interested. My top 5 programs I all told that they were among my top choices. Below 5, I didn't even say that much.

And I definitely had programs contact me telling me I was going to be either "highly ranked" or "one of our top choices." But when they said this they didn't ask for any reciprocal statement from me. They asked many times if there was anything they could provide or any questions they could answer that would help me make up my decision (second look visits, talking to certain attendings or residents, things like that). However, some programs won't go out of their way to contact you, even if they really like you.

 

[noobin]

I can't imagine that people lie on purpose about this. That sort of thing would definitely come back to get you later.
What happened with the girl i mentioned is that they said 'we'll rank you first if you rank us first'. it was the 2nd to last interview she had and at that point she had full intentions of ranking them first because she liked them the best so she told them 'yes, i'm going to rank you first'. then after her last interview she really wanted to rank that final program first instead and she struggled over her rank list quite a bit. She ended up ranking the original program #1, she felt as though she had to since she told them she would. but I think she will always have a 'what-if' in the back of her mind.
i guess it's best to not make any sort of statements because you never know how you're going to feel.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

...she had full intentions of ranking them first because she liked them the best so she told them 'yes, i'm going to rank you first'.

You know noobin, one of my former classmates was in that exact situation. Granted it was plastic surgery and that field is 100x more competitive than path but long story short, he got screwed...BIG TIME.

 

[deschutes]

It's strange the number of times I've heard repeated the Match mantra to "rank in order of where you want to go". Sounds like common sense, but since it keeps coming up in any discussion about ROLs there must be common pitfalls which lead to an applicant not being able to follow the rule of thumb.

What are the pitfalls, I wonder. Telling a program in a fit of enthusiasm that you're going to rank them #1? I must be careful.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I dunno...maybe the better plan would be to tell all programs that you will rank them in the top 3 or 5. Either that or tell programs that you'll be ranking them highly. Maybe we'll come up with more good lines at the spurt of the moment as we go through several interviews.

 

[cytoborg]

What about...

"I'm very impressed with what I've seen here, think I would get a great education, love the group of residents, (etc etc) ...I do need to finish all my interviews, but I'm certain I will be ranking your program very highly."

Suggesting that there is a strong possibility of ranking them #1, but leaving a bit of wiggle room based on the fact that you aren't done interviewing yet. Positive, yet accurate.