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So is no AA/URM defender going to offer a counter to this point....................hmmmmmmmmm..........very interesting point..................( no position either way JUST Watching the debate)
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A solution to selection by race...Individualism
- Thread starter Loki
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So is no AA/URM defender going to offer a counter to this point....................hmmmmmmmmm..........very interesting point..................( no position either way JUST Watching the debate)
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Originally posted by Random Access
Well, that's partly why I asked Ryo-Ohki about it in the other thread. However...how would this account for the differences for Hispanics and Asians? Asians face racism too and yet are not a URM for med school admissions. This isn't only about black and white. In any case, it's an oversimplification to blame it completely on racism.
I would like to hear anyone address this as well. I think blaming the disparity on racism is a gross oversimplification just like Ryo's supposition that URMs have poor study habits to account for disparity in test scores and grades when all things are equaled (income, parental education, yada yada).
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Originally posted by Mangs
two students of different colors going through the same educational systems with the same opportunities may not have the same academic experience. the expectations of the "URM" by his/her teachers will be lower, the attention given to him/her will be less..all of these factors have huge implications on a childs learning experience.
Actually, the top student in our class was a black guy. I did not know very many people in our HS. I did, however, have a few classes with him. He was bright and he received more of his fair share of attention from the faculty. Although your arguments are compelling, they simply don't address the problem.
The problem is not social, it is cultural. Indeed, if race limits your opportunities, your average asian student would be limited, they are not. Or perhaps they are discriminated against; I think it could be argured that asians are discrimiated against to a greater extent than black americans. I suspect my asian classmates had to meet a higher standard than myself (white male). See how racial selection (AA) does nothing but produce diminished opportunity?
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1.) I disagree that racism is an oversimplification.
I think people are afraid to acknowlege the impact of racism and its potency. I am not saying that other minority groups do not experience racism or discrimination AT ALLl..However, it is well documented that Asians experience the stresses of the "model minority". I am sure you can pull many that are the exception but, largely the sterotypes and generalizations about blacks in America are ALL negative.
2.) I'd like to see some proof that Asians are/have been discriminated against more than blacks through their entire history in America. Let's not forget slavery, mass lynchings in the 60s, racial profiling TODAY in almost every state (examples NYC, New Jersey), the fact that when a black person and white person are charged with the same crime, a black person most often gets a steeper sentence. These are general facts that any "student" of race dynamics in America is well aware of.
First, let's have a definition of discrimination..
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Sociology holds that discrimination involves not only socially derived beliefs each group holds about the other, but also patterns of dominance and oppression, viewed as expressions of a struggle for power and priveledge. Random acts of unfair treatment do not constitute discrimination. Instead, discrimination is a socially structured and sanctioned phenomenon, justified by ideology and expressed in interactions, among and between individuals and institutions, inteneded to maintain priveledges for memebers of dominant groups at the cost of deprivation of others...Now all of that is from an article by social anthropologist/epidemiologist Nancy Krieger in a paper titled, "Embodying Inequality: A Review of concepts, measures, and methods for studying the health consequences of discrimination" (Internatinal Journal of Health Services 1999, 29(2): 295-352. You should all read it along with the other impacts of discrimination/racism on health, education, self-perception.
Racism is not simplistic..It's not an easy issue to address nor is it an easy problem to fix. My aim is not even to fixate us on the fact that racism exists..It amazes me that we have to argue that point. If at some point in this countries history we can all admit that THERE IS RACISM, IT IS INSTITUTIONAL, we can take huge steps forward. AA is not the best answer..but we can't even come up with viable solution to treat society because we can't even agree that there is an illness. Fact of the matter is, there will be exceptions to all cases..Individuals who rise up despite the odds, but what is the trend?? WHat is the larger societal impact??
Which one are we choosing to do here folks...Speak about the one black person we know.."They do this or they do that.." Or are we going to really look on a macro scale?? I guarantee you, going on individual antectodes your sample size will be ridiculously insignificant. Whatever conclusions you draw can be grossly miscalculated.
This again, is not to be little the experience of other minorities..but when you think about the intensity and the length that blacks in America have been disriminated against, there is no comparison. It's unfair to even suggest it...The truth is, significant #'s of Asian Americans came to the US in the 19th Century, many of their own free will to work as indentured servants on railroads for western expansion..Now, I do NOT argue that they weren't treated unfairly/discriminated against BUTthere was never the same systematic effort to marginalize the ENTIRE group from society at day one. YOu have occasions and incidents, the Interrment of Japanese Americans, and other very WRONG and UNJUST measures taken at different points in History but--it was not the same length nor with the same systematic measure. THat is an ESSENTIAL FACT..THE VAST majority of blacks that came to America from early days of the first colonies, in Virgina we SLAVES..and the discrimination started there. YOu have an entire population that is attempting to catch up w/other segments of society from a 400 year deficit.... Please remember, we are only 30/40 years from the civil rights movement. So this generation is progressing out from under those constraints..The same is true for women to a certain degree.
I think people are afraid to acknowlege the impact of racism and its potency. I am not saying that other minority groups do not experience racism or discrimination AT ALLl..However, it is well documented that Asians experience the stresses of the "model minority". I am sure you can pull many that are the exception but, largely the sterotypes and generalizations about blacks in America are ALL negative.
2.) I'd like to see some proof that Asians are/have been discriminated against more than blacks through their entire history in America. Let's not forget slavery, mass lynchings in the 60s, racial profiling TODAY in almost every state (examples NYC, New Jersey), the fact that when a black person and white person are charged with the same crime, a black person most often gets a steeper sentence. These are general facts that any "student" of race dynamics in America is well aware of.
First, let's have a definition of discrimination..
The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Sociology holds that discrimination involves not only socially derived beliefs each group holds about the other, but also patterns of dominance and oppression, viewed as expressions of a struggle for power and priveledge. Random acts of unfair treatment do not constitute discrimination. Instead, discrimination is a socially structured and sanctioned phenomenon, justified by ideology and expressed in interactions, among and between individuals and institutions, inteneded to maintain priveledges for memebers of dominant groups at the cost of deprivation of others...Now all of that is from an article by social anthropologist/epidemiologist Nancy Krieger in a paper titled, "Embodying Inequality: A Review of concepts, measures, and methods for studying the health consequences of discrimination" (Internatinal Journal of Health Services 1999, 29(2): 295-352. You should all read it along with the other impacts of discrimination/racism on health, education, self-perception.
Racism is not simplistic..It's not an easy issue to address nor is it an easy problem to fix. My aim is not even to fixate us on the fact that racism exists..It amazes me that we have to argue that point. If at some point in this countries history we can all admit that THERE IS RACISM, IT IS INSTITUTIONAL, we can take huge steps forward. AA is not the best answer..but we can't even come up with viable solution to treat society because we can't even agree that there is an illness. Fact of the matter is, there will be exceptions to all cases..Individuals who rise up despite the odds, but what is the trend?? WHat is the larger societal impact??
Which one are we choosing to do here folks...Speak about the one black person we know.."They do this or they do that.." Or are we going to really look on a macro scale?? I guarantee you, going on individual antectodes your sample size will be ridiculously insignificant. Whatever conclusions you draw can be grossly miscalculated.
This again, is not to be little the experience of other minorities..but when you think about the intensity and the length that blacks in America have been disriminated against, there is no comparison. It's unfair to even suggest it...The truth is, significant #'s of Asian Americans came to the US in the 19th Century, many of their own free will to work as indentured servants on railroads for western expansion..Now, I do NOT argue that they weren't treated unfairly/discriminated against BUTthere was never the same systematic effort to marginalize the ENTIRE group from society at day one. YOu have occasions and incidents, the Interrment of Japanese Americans, and other very WRONG and UNJUST measures taken at different points in History but--it was not the same length nor with the same systematic measure. THat is an ESSENTIAL FACT..THE VAST majority of blacks that came to America from early days of the first colonies, in Virgina we SLAVES..and the discrimination started there. YOu have an entire population that is attempting to catch up w/other segments of society from a 400 year deficit.... Please remember, we are only 30/40 years from the civil rights movement. So this generation is progressing out from under those constraints..The same is true for women to a certain degree.
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Mangs,
The "model minority" stereotype didn't just pop out of thin air. Like all stereotypes, it took time to develop -- implying that it did not exist at some point. In other words, there was a point in history when Asians were viewed as just another inferior minority class. Yet, despite the racism, they managed to succeed in the face of a hostile world.
If you read the tone of your posts, it screams of defensiveness and victimology -- justly or unjustly mirroring the attitudes of many African-Americans.
To help the fence-sitting SDN readers understand what this kind of culture produces, last year the UN produced a report on the stagnation of the Arab countries in the Middle East. Despite their incredible oil wealth (or, arguably, due to it), these countries have fallen behind the rest of the world in terms of standard of living. Two major reasons with relevance to this debate that explain this phenomenon are the use of oil as a crutch (analogous to AA) and the viewpoint that the Arab nations have been victimized by the rest of the world (culture influencing action).
The Economist compared Saudi Arabia to South Korea in post-war 1950's and today. [rough estimates from memory] In 1950, both countries had an average household income of $300 and literacy rates of 10%. Today, Saudi Arabia has roughly stayed the same, while South Korea's average income is $10,000 with literacy rates of almost 100%.
The point of all this? Yes, racism still exists. Yes, economic factors can ****** academic achievement. Yes, in general, external factors can influence progress. BUT -- and this is the biggest butt I've ever seen -- virtually every single individual in this country has the capacity to achieve what they want DESPITE THESE EXTERNAL FACTORS. The challenges may be greater, the obstacles more difficult to overcome, but most goals can be achieved if one is truly dedicates himself to it.
The "model minority" stereotype didn't just pop out of thin air. Like all stereotypes, it took time to develop -- implying that it did not exist at some point. In other words, there was a point in history when Asians were viewed as just another inferior minority class. Yet, despite the racism, they managed to succeed in the face of a hostile world.
If you read the tone of your posts, it screams of defensiveness and victimology -- justly or unjustly mirroring the attitudes of many African-Americans.
To help the fence-sitting SDN readers understand what this kind of culture produces, last year the UN produced a report on the stagnation of the Arab countries in the Middle East. Despite their incredible oil wealth (or, arguably, due to it), these countries have fallen behind the rest of the world in terms of standard of living. Two major reasons with relevance to this debate that explain this phenomenon are the use of oil as a crutch (analogous to AA) and the viewpoint that the Arab nations have been victimized by the rest of the world (culture influencing action).
The Economist compared Saudi Arabia to South Korea in post-war 1950's and today. [rough estimates from memory] In 1950, both countries had an average household income of $300 and literacy rates of 10%. Today, Saudi Arabia has roughly stayed the same, while South Korea's average income is $10,000 with literacy rates of almost 100%.
The point of all this? Yes, racism still exists. Yes, economic factors can ****** academic achievement. Yes, in general, external factors can influence progress. BUT -- and this is the biggest butt I've ever seen -- virtually every single individual in this country has the capacity to achieve what they want DESPITE THESE EXTERNAL FACTORS. The challenges may be greater, the obstacles more difficult to overcome, but most goals can be achieved if one is truly dedicates himself to it.
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QUOTE]Originally posted by Mangs
1.) I disagree that racism is an oversimplification.
I think people are afraid to acknowlege the impact of racism and its potency. I am not saying that other minority groups do not experience racism or discrimination AT ALLl..However, it is well documented that Asians experience the stresses of the "model minority". I am sure you can pull many that are the exception but, largely the sterotypes and generalizations about blacks in America are ALL negative.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. I dont, however, think there is no question about the "potency" of racism. Just look at the interest generated by every AA post in this forum. All minority groups experience discrimination, it is a human relationship phenomenon. Ethinic and racial struggle has been at the root of most armed conflicts throughout the development of western civilization. It could be argued that the conflict is necessary to produce rapid progress.
Personally, I love AA. Like all premeds, I started working the numbers to calculate my chances for admission. I discovered that it was necessary to subtract the number of URMs admitted from the total admitted to get an idea of the number of slots available to me. The fewer the slots, the harder I was going to have to work to gain admission. Therefore, the URMs made me a better student by virtue of their reduced standards. Moreover, do you see the difference in the approach? Where others see diminishing opportunity (you have heard the complaints "they are taking my slot') I see a chance to better myself. This is the core of what I am proposing...individual response to adversity.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Mangs
1.) 2.) I'd like to see some proof that Asians are/have been discriminated against more than blacks through their entire history in America. Let's not forget slavery, mass lynchings in the 60s, racial profiling TODAY in almost every state (examples NYC, New Jersey), the fact that when a black person and white person are charged with the same crime, a black person most often gets a steeper sentence. These are general facts that any "student" of race dynamics in America is well aware of. [/QUOTE]
Asian Americans have seen their fair share of racism. Remember the shrimp boat burining incidences back in the 80s? Between 1979 and 1981, several Vietnamese-owned shrimp boats were burned in the Galveston Bay area.
http://modelminority.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=76
These people overcame their difficulties by outworking there white shimping competitors.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Mangs
Fact of the matter is, there will be exceptions to all cases..Individuals who rise up despite the odds, but what is the trend?? WHat is the larger societal impact??
Which one are we choosing to do here folks...Speak about the one black person we know.."They do this or they do that.." Or are we going to really look on a macro scale?? I guarantee you, going on individual antectodes your sample size will be ridiculously insignificant. Whatever conclusions you draw can be grossly miscalculated.[/QUOTE]
The "exception" in all cases becomes the seed of change. All change starts small and gains momentum. People always forget what one person can do another can do. This is about attitude either you are going to believe you are a victim or you believe you have an opportunity. That choice is up to the individual. There are thousands of recorded episodes of individual triumph in the face of adversity. If you extend this thought to the unwritten triumphs in history, there must be millions of incedences of individual triumph.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Mangs
This again, is not to be little the experience of other minorities..but when you think about the intensity and the length that blacks in America have been disriminated against, there is no comparison. It's unfair to even suggest it...The truth is, significant #'s of Asian Americans came to the US in the 19th Century, many of their own free will to work as indentured servants on railroads for western expansion..Now, I do NOT argue that they weren't treated unfairly/discriminated against BUTthere was never the same systematic effort to marginalize the ENTIRE group from society at day one. YOu have occasions and incidents, the Interrment of Japanese Americans, and other very WRONG and UNJUST measures taken at different points in History but--it was not the same length nor with the same systematic measure. THat is an ESSENTIAL FACT..THE VAST majority of blacks that came to America from early days of the first colonies, in Virgina we SLAVES..and the discrimination started there. YOu have an entire population that is attempting to catch up w/other segments of society from a 400 year deficit.... Please remember, we are only 30/40 years from the civil rights movement. So this generation is progressing out from under those constraints..The same is true for women to a certain degree. [/QUOTE]
You said it yourself...free will is the key. You are right, free will has everything to do with the outcome of destiny. The Asian immigrants wished to escape the boot of communism so they willingly piled into boats and experienced the perils of the ocean...most of them, I might add, died in the process (sounds like the founders of our nation). In my mind both the Asian boat people and the African slaves were heros. One group, however, exercied free will and the other has not discovered the powre of their individualism yet. As long as they get a "leg up" with screwy programs such as AA, they will never discover their power.
There are plenty of people who do not want minority groups to succeed. They have built careers based on furthering the plight of the African Americans. Dont kid yourself, these people have something to lose if black people discover their ability to shape their own destiny.
1.) I disagree that racism is an oversimplification.
I think people are afraid to acknowlege the impact of racism and its potency. I am not saying that other minority groups do not experience racism or discrimination AT ALLl..However, it is well documented that Asians experience the stresses of the "model minority". I am sure you can pull many that are the exception but, largely the sterotypes and generalizations about blacks in America are ALL negative.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. I dont, however, think there is no question about the "potency" of racism. Just look at the interest generated by every AA post in this forum. All minority groups experience discrimination, it is a human relationship phenomenon. Ethinic and racial struggle has been at the root of most armed conflicts throughout the development of western civilization. It could be argued that the conflict is necessary to produce rapid progress.
Personally, I love AA. Like all premeds, I started working the numbers to calculate my chances for admission. I discovered that it was necessary to subtract the number of URMs admitted from the total admitted to get an idea of the number of slots available to me. The fewer the slots, the harder I was going to have to work to gain admission. Therefore, the URMs made me a better student by virtue of their reduced standards. Moreover, do you see the difference in the approach? Where others see diminishing opportunity (you have heard the complaints "they are taking my slot') I see a chance to better myself. This is the core of what I am proposing...individual response to adversity.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Mangs
1.) 2.) I'd like to see some proof that Asians are/have been discriminated against more than blacks through their entire history in America. Let's not forget slavery, mass lynchings in the 60s, racial profiling TODAY in almost every state (examples NYC, New Jersey), the fact that when a black person and white person are charged with the same crime, a black person most often gets a steeper sentence. These are general facts that any "student" of race dynamics in America is well aware of. [/QUOTE]
Asian Americans have seen their fair share of racism. Remember the shrimp boat burining incidences back in the 80s? Between 1979 and 1981, several Vietnamese-owned shrimp boats were burned in the Galveston Bay area.
http://modelminority.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=76
These people overcame their difficulties by outworking there white shimping competitors.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Mangs
Fact of the matter is, there will be exceptions to all cases..Individuals who rise up despite the odds, but what is the trend?? WHat is the larger societal impact??
Which one are we choosing to do here folks...Speak about the one black person we know.."They do this or they do that.." Or are we going to really look on a macro scale?? I guarantee you, going on individual antectodes your sample size will be ridiculously insignificant. Whatever conclusions you draw can be grossly miscalculated.[/QUOTE]
The "exception" in all cases becomes the seed of change. All change starts small and gains momentum. People always forget what one person can do another can do. This is about attitude either you are going to believe you are a victim or you believe you have an opportunity. That choice is up to the individual. There are thousands of recorded episodes of individual triumph in the face of adversity. If you extend this thought to the unwritten triumphs in history, there must be millions of incedences of individual triumph.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Mangs
This again, is not to be little the experience of other minorities..but when you think about the intensity and the length that blacks in America have been disriminated against, there is no comparison. It's unfair to even suggest it...The truth is, significant #'s of Asian Americans came to the US in the 19th Century, many of their own free will to work as indentured servants on railroads for western expansion..Now, I do NOT argue that they weren't treated unfairly/discriminated against BUTthere was never the same systematic effort to marginalize the ENTIRE group from society at day one. YOu have occasions and incidents, the Interrment of Japanese Americans, and other very WRONG and UNJUST measures taken at different points in History but--it was not the same length nor with the same systematic measure. THat is an ESSENTIAL FACT..THE VAST majority of blacks that came to America from early days of the first colonies, in Virgina we SLAVES..and the discrimination started there. YOu have an entire population that is attempting to catch up w/other segments of society from a 400 year deficit.... Please remember, we are only 30/40 years from the civil rights movement. So this generation is progressing out from under those constraints..The same is true for women to a certain degree. [/QUOTE]
You said it yourself...free will is the key. You are right, free will has everything to do with the outcome of destiny. The Asian immigrants wished to escape the boot of communism so they willingly piled into boats and experienced the perils of the ocean...most of them, I might add, died in the process (sounds like the founders of our nation). In my mind both the Asian boat people and the African slaves were heros. One group, however, exercied free will and the other has not discovered the powre of their individualism yet. As long as they get a "leg up" with screwy programs such as AA, they will never discover their power.
There are plenty of people who do not want minority groups to succeed. They have built careers based on furthering the plight of the African Americans. Dont kid yourself, these people have something to lose if black people discover their ability to shape their own destiny.
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Thanks for your responses. I definitely agree that I typed my previous post from a defensive stand point. The main thrust that I was trying to articulate is that racism is not a small issue. The main issue with AA as many of us would agree, is that it is a double edged sword. I just have a serious problem when people try and assess why this is the case with historical amnesia. That's mearly my point. I'm also not trying to propagate a "victim position". I don't mean that "URMs" should throw their hands up and not try--and I definitely don't think that is the case. Efforts are being made in every realm to achieve and surprass the legacy of the past. I think that is what one of the early posters referred to as heroism, which I whole heartendly agree with. People have achieved and continued to do so--but, I argue that this is in the face of racism and discrimination--because it is all alive and well. That's all I'm saying.
How we as a collective body (citizens and residents of the US) are planning to contend with that, the sensitive ear we give the issue (we can see from all the heated posts..it is sensitive issue because we are all stake holders), the importance we give it, the more open our minds, and willing we are to be uncomfortable and challenged...the better "we" as a collective society will be.
It is a utilitarian aim I think..We have to really rise above our individual experience. So I am definitely willing to dialog about this..Sometimes I admit passionately, but the issues are important.
How we as a collective body (citizens and residents of the US) are planning to contend with that, the sensitive ear we give the issue (we can see from all the heated posts..it is sensitive issue because we are all stake holders), the importance we give it, the more open our minds, and willing we are to be uncomfortable and challenged...the better "we" as a collective society will be.
It is a utilitarian aim I think..We have to really rise above our individual experience. So I am definitely willing to dialog about this..Sometimes I admit passionately, but the issues are important.
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Originally posted by Mangs
2.) I'd like to see some proof that Asians are/have been discriminated against more than blacks through their entire history in America. Let's not forget slavery, mass lynchings in the 60s, racial profiling TODAY in almost every state (examples NYC, New Jersey), the fact that when a black person and white person are charged with the same crime, a black person most often gets a steeper sentence. These are general facts that any "student" of race dynamics in America is well aware of.
Again, AA is not just about black people. What about Hispanics vs. Asians? Or Native Americans? I think racism is an oversimplification because there are races who have overcome it.
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