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A terrible choice to make
Started by legalprobs
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I will defer to those with more admissions experience, but one thing I have picked up is that charges being expunged may not actually clear you from having to answer "yes" when it comes to applying for med school, residency, or licensing. Even if your lawyer tells you it will. So the one year gap option may not be as promising as you think.
I mean man you gotta look at it like this. I don't care if your as smartest person in the world, a drug arrest is taken pretty seriously when applying to grad schools/getting a job in the future. If it was my future I think I would take the year off and get it expunged from my record. You need to talk to your lawyer and ask very detailed questions about the expungement. Let me know how it goes. Love
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#1 Will not 100% keep you out of medical school. But, it will make it significantly more difficult. Any type of non-traffic conviction is looked at closely by admissions committees. The further back something happened (big difference between 17 year old vs. 25 year old doing something stupid and applying as a 26 year old), the better, but ultimately, you are a bigger risk as an applicant and by definition medical schools are risk adverse.
#2 No matter what your lawyer tells you, if the question asks, "Have you ever been arrested or charged with XYZ?" You are lying if you don't answer yes. If we find out that you were arrested and you said, "No." your chances of getting into our school is zero. And yes, it happens with reasonable frequency that someone thinks that 'expunged' means that all traces of something happening were erased and gets nailed for this. Things come up on criminal background checks, even if as far as the state is concerned, nothing happened.
All of that having been said, people take gap years all the time. It is not unusual for people to have gaps in their education. It is not a red-flag to have them. It is a red-flag to have gaps and have nothing filling them. Taking a year off to get help and get your life in order seems like the best course of action. Simply fill your time when not in counseling doing other things like volunteering, working and/or exploring medicine. Then disclose, honestly exactly what happened on your applications which should look something like: arrested for drug possession, underwent a counseling program while spending a year helping the community and no conviction, return to school and rocked out. THAT is your best hope of not allowing this to get in the way of applying to medical school.
#2 No matter what your lawyer tells you, if the question asks, "Have you ever been arrested or charged with XYZ?" You are lying if you don't answer yes. If we find out that you were arrested and you said, "No." your chances of getting into our school is zero. And yes, it happens with reasonable frequency that someone thinks that 'expunged' means that all traces of something happening were erased and gets nailed for this. Things come up on criminal background checks, even if as far as the state is concerned, nothing happened.
All of that having been said, people take gap years all the time. It is not unusual for people to have gaps in their education. It is not a red-flag to have them. It is a red-flag to have gaps and have nothing filling them. Taking a year off to get help and get your life in order seems like the best course of action. Simply fill your time when not in counseling doing other things like volunteering, working and/or exploring medicine. Then disclose, honestly exactly what happened on your applications which should look something like: arrested for drug possession, underwent a counseling program while spending a year helping the community and no conviction, return to school and rocked out. THAT is your best hope of not allowing this to get in the way of applying to medical school.
@Goro will have some more input, but i'm willing to bet that the wisest choice would be to take a LOA from school for a year, do the program and work a job if you can, continue volunteering and shadowing, and then go back to school once you're done.
tell your school the situation. ask them if there is a LOA option instead of just straight dropping out. hopefully with a LOA you won't have to reapply. if you still have to or a LOA isn't an option, ask them how likely it will be that you'll be reaccepted. tell them you love the school (hopefully you do) and that you wouldnt' want to go anywhere else, but that personal issues dictate you not being able to go next year.
#1 should be a last ditch effort
tell your school the situation. ask them if there is a LOA option instead of just straight dropping out. hopefully with a LOA you won't have to reapply. if you still have to or a LOA isn't an option, ask them how likely it will be that you'll be reaccepted. tell them you love the school (hopefully you do) and that you wouldnt' want to go anywhere else, but that personal issues dictate you not being able to go next year.
#1 should be a last ditch effort
First, if you lawyer is suggesting that you take a certain option, listen to him/her. This is their field of expertise and it is in their best interset for you to get the best possible outcome. You also have to take responsibilty for this. Being able to say, yes I was young and stupid, but I have done XYZ since then to grow as a person will go a long way.
Second, do not be shortsighted. It is one year, and you are 19. A lot of people take a year off for various reasons, so taking a year off now will not preclude you from becoming a physician.
Third, during your year of counseling, you will presumably have plenty of free time. This would be a great opportunity for you to focus on building your ECs. Do plenty of volunteering. I am almost positive that your counseling facility will be able to connect you with programs in your community. You have the chance to take many positives out of this bad situation.
I also think it goes without saying that you have to be squeaky clean from this point forward. Good luck with everything!
Second, do not be shortsighted. It is one year, and you are 19. A lot of people take a year off for various reasons, so taking a year off now will not preclude you from becoming a physician.
Third, during your year of counseling, you will presumably have plenty of free time. This would be a great opportunity for you to focus on building your ECs. Do plenty of volunteering. I am almost positive that your counseling facility will be able to connect you with programs in your community. You have the chance to take many positives out of this bad situation.
I also think it goes without saying that you have to be squeaky clean from this point forward. Good luck with everything!
What happens in high school stays in high school. We can forgive a drug possession charge (but not crimes of violence).
EDIT: Just re-read your OP and agree with the wise Mimelim...go with 2)
In either case, don't be so sure that arrests won't be on your record.
The best way to recover from this will be to lead an exemplary life. Any further mistakes will be a sign that you don't learn your lessons, and you'll never be a doctor.
EDIT: Just re-read your OP and agree with the wise Mimelim...go with 2)
In either case, don't be so sure that arrests won't be on your record.
The best way to recover from this will be to lead an exemplary life. Any further mistakes will be a sign that you don't learn your lessons, and you'll never be a doctor.
I know what I would do...
I would take the one where your record is expunged.. You are allowed to take a year off from school. This is your life not the admission committee's life. Once your year is done apply to a different school and be done with it. Expunged is expunged. There are always lawyers in this world. If you are are legally allowed to answer NO, then it has to be accepted.
I would take the one where your record is expunged.. You are allowed to take a year off from school. This is your life not the admission committee's life. Once your year is done apply to a different school and be done with it. Expunged is expunged. There are always lawyers in this world. If you are are legally allowed to answer NO, then it has to be accepted.
There is no law that says you can't lie on a medical school application. So yes, it is not illegal to answer the question incorrectly. It is also still a lie. We don't like liars in our medical school classes. This is very simple. Was the OP arrested? Yes. Ergo, the correct answer to the question, "Have you ever been arrested?" is, "Yes." Trying to hide things that happened in the past hurts far more than the vast majority of stupid things that get people involved with the law in the first place.
Work your ass off to get it off your record and don't lie about it when you apply.
I'd consider what the drug(s) was and how much there was. A little bit of pot or X in a repressive state? Take the misdemeanor and move forward. Heroin, meth or a large quantity of cocaine or X, do the treatment program. (It's not residential, is it? So you will be able to do other things? And I'm assuming that you've really checked and determined that you can't do the program while still attending college?)
The thing about expungement is just as @mimelim says - While you might legally be able to answer "No" to a question, morally and ethically it's still a lie. (Depends on the wording, of course.) And depending on your state and the thoroughness of the background check, things might still turn up -- so you'd be wise to disclose them. I'd decide based on the assumption that you will disclose anyway -- "When I was young and stupid, I did this, and the consequences were that. But I did learn my lesson and have avoided drugs of all kinds ever since."
And for goodness' sake, DO avoid drugs of all kinds. One drug mistake at a youthful age, even a relatively serious one, can be forgiven. Two drug mistakes (or even one drug followed by alcohol) indicates that you may have a substance abuse problem.
The thing about expungement is just as @mimelim says - While you might legally be able to answer "No" to a question, morally and ethically it's still a lie. (Depends on the wording, of course.) And depending on your state and the thoroughness of the background check, things might still turn up -- so you'd be wise to disclose them. I'd decide based on the assumption that you will disclose anyway -- "When I was young and stupid, I did this, and the consequences were that. But I did learn my lesson and have avoided drugs of all kinds ever since."
And for goodness' sake, DO avoid drugs of all kinds. One drug mistake at a youthful age, even a relatively serious one, can be forgiven. Two drug mistakes (or even one drug followed by alcohol) indicates that you may have a substance abuse problem.
Even if it is expunged, you still have to answer yes to "have you ever been charged." Even if you are charged and found innocent, you have to answer yes to that question for the rest of your life. Same with arrests- even if you are arrested and released without charges, you have to disclose.
2 is by far the better option. 1 will affect you for the rest of your life to a far greater degree, and could affect everything from licensure to getting a DEA number.
But when at any point in this process do they ever ask "have you ever been arrested?" It's always "Have you ever been convicted or pled guilty?"
Also, what is with all the "I committed a crime" threads today? This is the third one so far.
App season usually has a lot of crime threads. It's typical. And I had several secondaries ask me if I've been arrested or charged.
This is not true. It depends on the school and the application process. Arrested, convicted, pled guilty, charged, etc. Just depends on how they word the questions. To be honest, it is very simple. Do not lie on your application. If anyone asks the OP, "Were you ever arrested or charged?" The answer is always, "Yes." Anyone who says otherwise, lawyer or otherwise is putting you at risk.
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I'd go with the second option. You can't answer no to have you ever been arrested, but the primary's ask if you've ever been convicted of a misdemeanor or felony, and at least you can answer no to that.
#2 will help you a lot more in the case that you don't end up going to med school, which I'm sure your dedicated to doing, but don't make the mistake so many others do of only planning on med school and not thinking about plan B's. But for a fair amount of schools you also had to disclose any arrests/etc, regardless of conviction.
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You may want to do more research about this. Lawyers have told me in the past that even if a record is expunged, certain agencies can still see it. Sealing is indeed different than an expunction, but I do believe that it will be seen by certain licensing programs (namely law schools / licenses to practice law, but I would be surprised if licenses to practice medicine aren't included.)
Also, just because a record has been expunged does not mean that your employers, licensers, or schools won't find it. Sealed or expunged records are inaccessible after they have been sealed or expunged, but it is very likely that private companies have obtained or purchased the data before it was expunged or sealed, meaning that background checks may still find a hit, even if the records have been expunged.
Do any medical schools require you to list all things that you've been charged with? AMCAS doesn't, neither does TMDSAS.
Why would any institution be interested in a charge that was either:
- dropped
- found not guilty by a judge or jury
- the conviction was overturned on appeal
I'm just a little confused why anyone would want to know/ask for this kind of information? Obviously it wouldn't be a good thing if your potential employer/school found out - is this ethical to hold something like this against a person?
To the OP:
As it stands now, you don't have to listed sealed or expunged records to any medical schools, and to the best of my knowledge I don't think they ask ******ed questions like: "Have you ever been charged with x?" without including the exceptions I listed above.
However, an expungement is MUCH MUCH better than having your documents sealed. What basically happens in an expungement is your records get destroyed as if the event never happened, this is much different than getting your files sealed. Even if some institutions (e.g. government background checks (i.e. FBI, maybe VA hospitals? etc...)) somehow still have access to expunged records (which I'm not sure they do) anyone with any legal knowledge will see that an expungement looks much better than simply sealing records. It is much harder to get a judge to agree to expunge your records than seal them.
Why would any institution be interested in a charge that was either:
- dropped
- found not guilty by a judge or jury
- the conviction was overturned on appeal
I'm just a little confused why anyone would want to know/ask for this kind of information? Obviously it wouldn't be a good thing if your potential employer/school found out - is this ethical to hold something like this against a person?
To the OP:
As it stands now, you don't have to listed sealed or expunged records to any medical schools, and to the best of my knowledge I don't think they ask ******ed questions like: "Have you ever been charged with x?" without including the exceptions I listed above.
However, an expungement is MUCH MUCH better than having your documents sealed. What basically happens in an expungement is your records get destroyed as if the event never happened, this is much different than getting your files sealed. Even if some institutions (e.g. government background checks (i.e. FBI, maybe VA hospitals? etc...)) somehow still have access to expunged records (which I'm not sure they do) anyone with any legal knowledge will see that an expungement looks much better than simply sealing records. It is much harder to get a judge to agree to expunge your records than seal them.
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If a background check agency reports information to their customer that has been sealed or expunged, not only will they be liable to a lawsuit but they will quickly fix the problem as soon as you show proof of your NDA or expungement.
keep in mind that many many jobs will require a criminal background check, so most private employers actually will find out. also keep in mind that engineers do need licenses.
also keep in mind that all else being equal, a med school would much rather accept someone without a criminal record. the average patient doesn't want a doctor with a criminal record. so maybe just give up now and set your sights on something more realistic.
In many jurisdictions, the expungement itself does not remove the record from every criminal history search. All it truly does is seal the court record. The person receiving the expungement usually has to send the order to all relevant agencies to get those sealed as well. This will usually include: FBI, State equivalent of FBI, Sheriff's office in county where arrest was made, Prosecutor's office in district where crime was prosecuted.
That being said, many employers only do a search for convictions. If they do a more detailed search and the agency either hasn't received the order to seal or expunge or the search company uses outdated records, Option 1 will most likely show up as a felony arrest reduced to a misdemeanor with a stay of adjudication while Option 2 will probably show up as a continuance or stay of adjudication (depending on the conditions).
Sealed and expunged records do not excuse one from affirmative answers to arrest and charge questions. While an expungement does, indeed, render the entire record null and void, it does not change the fact that the person was still taken into custody for the crime or originally charged with it.
DISCLAIMER: I am most likely not licensed in your state and, even if I am, it's irrelevant because the aforementioned is given for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice nor does it imply or commence an attorney-client relationship. Your attorney knows best the consequences of each action and the extent of effectiveness for sealing or expunging records in your jurisdiction.
That being said, many employers only do a search for convictions. If they do a more detailed search and the agency either hasn't received the order to seal or expunge or the search company uses outdated records, Option 1 will most likely show up as a felony arrest reduced to a misdemeanor with a stay of adjudication while Option 2 will probably show up as a continuance or stay of adjudication (depending on the conditions).
Sealed and expunged records do not excuse one from affirmative answers to arrest and charge questions. While an expungement does, indeed, render the entire record null and void, it does not change the fact that the person was still taken into custody for the crime or originally charged with it.
DISCLAIMER: I am most likely not licensed in your state and, even if I am, it's irrelevant because the aforementioned is given for informational purposes only and does not constitute legal advice nor does it imply or commence an attorney-client relationship. Your attorney knows best the consequences of each action and the extent of effectiveness for sealing or expunging records in your jurisdiction.
Regular criminal background reports (the kind I can only imagine a non-government employed engineer will see) will not show sealed records. So no, they wouldn't find out.
What's the point of asking these questions? Do you know if these are actually asked? I've never seen them asked without stating exceptions (like the ones I listed above).
I have no idea if med schools ask these Qs. You'd have to ask an adcom. I know when I was applying to law schools, each school asked for varying degrees of history. Some only asked for convictions, others for charges and convictions, and even others for traffic, charges, and convictions.
The reason law schools often ask for charges (and I would assume other places as well) is because, like you see in this thread, lack of conviction does not always mean a lack of factual guilt: there are diversion programs, stays of adjudication, and other types of pleas that don't result in conviction. So, some places want to know the entire criminal history.
Schools with a government hospital as a primary teaching affiliation may ask about all charges. Even juvenile or "expunged" records may make the candidate ineligible for a badge at this hospital. If being able to work and learn in this hospital is required, it is better to know in advance, to mitigate the harm to the candidate and inform the candidate that another school might be a better option.
Look at the AMCAS manual, pages 32-34. What you must disclose if explunged or sealed varies by your state of residence! Check this out before making a decision. https://www.aamc.org/students/download/182162/data/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf
Do most medical schools require you to report dismissed and sealed misdemeanors on the secondary? Or do most not?
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Most schools don't require you to list them. In all the schools I applied to I never saw one asking you to report dismissed or sealed.
Did you read the AMCAS instructions? Please start there. What you are required to report varies by state.
Yes I read it. Clearly you don't report sealed and dismissed on the primary. My question was for secondary
A bit of a devil's advocate perspective given the apparent consensus on #2. What good is a full year drug treatment program going to do for someone two years after the triggering incident and having already finished a year of college unless the OP does in fact have an active drug problem? It's asking for trouble to attempt a program if you think you definitely are not close to belonging there, not to mention missing a year of college. In fact, going to such a program for a year may call even more attention to the issue rather than less. The problem is that the Court isn't as interested in what is best for you, or even if the Court is interested they still have to get their pound (or quarter pound) of flesh. You need a good attorney. Also, this was high school, so if you have a stellar academic record and stay totally clean with exemplary character attributes for 4 years then it's going to be much easier for others when you are applying several years after the incident to sell that this was a "high school" mistake that you learned from immensely the really hard way. You need to find out if a misdemeanor conviction can keep you from having the full privileges of a licensed physician if you truly are committed to that path (although obviously you want an optimal outcome regardless of career choice). If there is more to the story and if indeed you do have more of a drug problem and/or did not perform in your frosh year in a stellar fashion and with character then all bets are off.
