A woman's hidden sacrifice to become a physician

Discussion in 'Women in Healthcare' started by DrCommonSense, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. DrCommonSense

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    A Woman’s Hidden Sacrifice to Become a Doctor — Medical School Success

    I think this article by a medical student pretty much sums up the issue of the dating market/difficulties that female physicians are experiencing.

    This is a good read for female physicians who might be having concerns about their dating prospects and the market realities that are influencing that perception.
     
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  3. I think the article is well-intentioned but idk if I agree with a lot of it. To me, women just come off very superficial in it, and a lot of it just sounds hyperbolic.

    "The female doctors, who I know for certain are married (and remains married), are either super, super attractive — like a model. Or they are foreign doctors and participated in arranged marriages."

    "Even if the female doctor was willing to forgo hypergamy and marry down"...?!

    I'd take a man who makes less but is great to me all day everyday, over a guy that makes more but treats me like crap. Marrying a guy who makes less or is shorter or is less educated isn't necessarily the same as marrying down.
     
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  4. DokterMom

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    "I think the article is well-intentioned but idk if I agree with a lot of it."

    I wouldn't even give it that... Clearly more of a red pill slant written by a man whose priorities are clearly superficial beauty, 'sweetness' (translation - submissiveness), youth and hotness rather than shared interests, intellectual capability and life competence. That kind of man does not generally want a woman to be his equal (gulp! - shudder) and will take every advantage he can get, fair or not.

    (On the flip-side, male doctors have quite the advantage when it comes to finding a mate, thanks to hypergamy. And because a typical medical school class will have more females than males, that means the supply of male doctors are low, which drives up the demand. Works for me.)

    When looking from a guy’s point of view, a female doctor is not exactly the best catch. Even if the female doctor was willing to forgo hypergamy and marry down, she may have to try very hard to finding someone. Many guys do not want their girls to make more money than them. Many guys do not want their girls to be more educated than them.

    While there is some truth to the premise that if a high-achieving woman insists on marrying a higher-achieving man her pool of prospects is narrower, the freedom that comes from economic independence should not be overlooked. Economically self-sufficient women are free to marry (or not) whomever they please, and this gives their spouses the freedom to pursue their own career passions.

    Edit: Adding that weeding out men who are scared or resentful of highly-capable women is a bonus that should not be underestimated! :cool:

    My take - The intent of this article is to warn women away from medicine, thereby reducing the competition for these pseudo-alpha guys who see their perceived 'rightful dominance' slipping away...
     
  5. DrCommonSense

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    If all female physicians held that attitude, I don't think there would be a dating/marriage/chores/etc problem.

    The "problem" exists because of hypergamy largely whereby female physicians (usually in late 20s and 30s/40s) will ONLY date/marry men who make equal and preferably MORE than they do.

    This is exacerbated by them wanting an "equal" relationship with those men in terms of doing chores or housework/taking care of kids.

    Many of the male physicians are more than willing to date/marry women who are younger/slender and willing to have children/take care of children/do the chores/etc despite these women making far less than the male.

    This has lead to a DEFICIT of men that women physician females find "suitable" due to a large segment of those 30s/40s physician males marrying/dating off with non physician females.

    The article basically realistically evaluates the situation for those female physicians who have unrestrained hypergamy and the reason they will have a very difficult time going forward.

    Solutions are simple but not easily realized due to "ego" and "hypergamy". Simple solutions include:

    A) Marry a man who makes far less money than you but picks up the slack around the household. The male can manage children/chores/etc. The common refrain is that "men aren't willing to do that". However, multiple surveys I have linked confirm that younger men are VERY willing to marry UP. Its the women who have issues with that. They often sabotage these relationships by preemptively being nasty to the poorer male then claiming "men can't handle a strong women and are intimidated", giving them justification to avoid poorer men

    B) Get rid of the "can have it all attitude": MOST MEN can't have it ALL and MOST WOMEN can't either. The difference is male physicians are more than willing to trade off wealth/status in their female partners for other things they value. This is why MALE physicians are able to be far more successful in the marriage arena. Female physicians CHOSE to NOT marry men who are lesser financially because they "want it all" and become more bitter as they get older and older.

    C) Lose the ENTITLED whiny feminist attitudes and "shaming language": The default position of many female physicians under these circumstances aren't to CHANGE THEMSELVES but to complain/whine about "immature men", "selfish men", "men are intimidated", etc. when they are unable to obtain a male who earns MORE than themselves. They will often write screeds about how he is a "boy child who wants to abuse younger women and is intimidated by strong women".

    In essence, they are DEMANDING the richer/successful men to forgo their own preferences to "marry" one of these "strong" women or they will be insulted/shamed. Unfortunately, this isn't a successful tactic and will NOT change BIOLOGICAL preferences that men have.

    Surveys of educated/richer men show they STRONG value slender/younger women far more than "income potential" in the female. Income potential is the ICING on the cake but definitely NOT the substance of male desires overall.

    D) The fallacy of the "exceptions": Whenever this information is stated, it will be dismissed that there are "exceptions" to this rule and some female Dermatologist married some Ortho Doctor in her 30s. Yes, there are SOME of these cases out there BUT they are NOT the majority and are DIFFICULT to obtain. Often female physicians who can't obtain this DON'T REALISTICALLY compare their situation with the other female who obtained this. Maybe they were HS sweethearts or dated in college for instance? Maybe she is EXTREMELY pretty?

    E) The cry of "changing the culture" to basically force higher income men/higher status men to go with "higher income potential" women: This is essentially where feminist women DEMAND men GIVE UP THEIR OWN PREFERENCES in terms of marriage/mating to fulfill the WISHES of the female physician that is often older and not as attractive as the women he is interested in. Its essentially fascistic method that DEMANDs men change for the women without taking into account male preferences. Why should the male have to change his preferences? Maybe its the female physician who needs to change hers? Nah that would be "sexist" asking her to change.

    F) Female physicians have a FAR HIGHER ATTRITION rate, especially AFTER having children/marrying a richer dude that can support her:

    Part-time women doctors are creating a timebomb

    Statistics clearly show women work part time or stop working FAR more than men when having CHILDREN. This is exacerbated when men EARN more than the female, so she can depend on his income.

    The question for the male physician is such: If women have a HIGH CHANCE of working part time or dropping out after marrying him, whereby he has to pay for the childcare expenses/student loans/pay for wife's lifestyle while simultaneously being told that he has a "strong educated wife" who is less like to do chores and is older, why would he agree to this deal?

    Please don't tell me this doesn't happen in real life with SIGNIFICANT frequency to male physicians. I PERSONALLY know of MANY cases and the stats bear this out.

    Its very rational for many men to want to avoid these arrangements and go for younger/slender/less hostile women who don't have large loans when presented with this option.
     
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  6. DrCommonSense

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    Actually, the dude who wrote this article clearly writes he wants MORE WOMEN in medicine because they will "lessen his competition" in the future by preventing other men from becoming physicians, INCREASING HIS OWN VALUE.

    I think you should read that again.

    Also, he is just explaining the situation as to why there are so many of these older bitter female physicians which is clearly becoming a problem whereby there is much literature being written about it.

    Usually the "tone" of the literature is that men are "intimidated losers" or some other claptrap.
     
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  7. DokterMom

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    Yeah.
    The author's deep respect for women and genuine concern for their happiness drips through every paragraph.

    As does yours.
     
  8. It just sounds like regurgitated rhetoric. Not sure what to make of it at all.

    Personally, I prefer to date higher-achieving men, but that is more because the men I have been with have been more sensitive about me making more, and it caused so many issues that I didn't care for. A man who makes less, and is comfortable with making less, would be perfectly fine by me. But that article makes it seem like, women meet a good guy but if he doesn't check this box and that box, he doesn't get a second look. Umm.
     
    #7 750335, Apr 22, 2017
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  9. Moose A Moose

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  10. Yeah, no. The article does none of that. I mean, I get the topic and the premise but the article is without substance.

    "This is exacerbated by them wanting an "equal" relationship with those men in terms of doing chores or housework/taking care of kids."

    DokterMom is right about your post.
     
    #9 750335, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2017
  11. DrCommonSense

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    I don't get how you gauge my "respect"?

    I am speaking about the realities of the sexual market place concerning what each sex looks for in a mate.

    Feel free to ignore it and just go on complaining about men if you're single and can't find someone. This is particularly true as one gets to their 30s.

    If you have someone, more power to you.
     
    #10 DrCommonSense, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  12. DrCommonSense

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    Yes many higher earnings women demand a higher earning man and will literally sabotage any relationship with a lower earning male. They will often throw off the sabotage by saying he was "intimidated" while its more that she was nasty to him . Some poorer men are intimidated but many are not.

    If you can obtain a higher earning man, more power to you. However, the obstacles for many female physicians is significant in that approach.
     
    #11 DrCommonSense, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  13. DrCommonSense

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    Why should the high earning male want equal chore sharing after a hard day of work?

    He might be fine with a lower earning female that will help with that and doesn't have to worry about 50/50.

    He doesn't owe you a 50/50 marriage on equal terms if he finds another model better for his needs.
     
    #12 DrCommonSense, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  14. ldiot

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    The sad truth is college was the time to meet someone weather you are a mean or woman. When in your life will you be surrounded by hundreds of single people your age on a day to day basis like you were in college? Never.

    It's something that I've been thinking a lot about lately. It's pretty depressing, I'm 25 and don't have anyone on my radar. I met someone who was absolutely perfect in college, but they were on a student visa and had to return to Europe. I don't have the time to go to Europe (have never even been there), and they can't even get into the USA to visit, so it was just logistically impossible to continue a relationship. That was almost 2 years ago and I'm still kind of depressed, though it might just be the fact that I'm single with no hope. That's my sob story... it sucks, it really does.
     
    #13 ldiot, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  15. sb247

    sb247 Doer of things

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    I'm unimpressed with the article.

    Female physicians are smart enough to make the same value judgements made by everyone else. Look at the available pool of potential husbands/wives, set your expectations and deal with the corresponding change in number of viable options then live with those odds or change the expectations.

    It's not suddenly different because they are smart and make more money, maybe different expectations but not a different process
     
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  17. DrCommonSense

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    Except they are writing long screeds about how men are "intimidated by them" with little introspection toward their single status.

    Why would this occur if they can accurately gauge the sexual market place?

    Also, if they notice this stuff to some degree, they want to CHANGE MEN'S PREFERENCES in terms of their mating interests. So in essence, men should SACRIFICE their own interests for them. If they don't do this, they are "sexist boys" or some other shaming tactic.

    Instead of CHANGING their own attitudes/behaviors towards men at a YOUNGER AGE when they have the HIGHEST chance of successful, they are ESSENTIALLY just DEMANDING men conform to their DEMANDS without a care/whit about their man's interests.

    The man is largely just a disposable check in their "checkbox" of things they want in life. He is basically a "prop" in her life and is there to serve her interests without interests of her own.

    So I strongly disagree that most of these single women who are complaining realize what this article is saying and/or very angry with successful men who DARE to mate in a manner they disapprove in with "lesser educated" women.

    They literally want men to care more about their THEORETICAL "income potential" (which we know if very theoretical considering statistics of physician women married to physician men and is often a negative with student loans) and negate other biological interests such as slenderness/age/etc. Some men will consider the theoretical income potential to be superior to those other traits BUT NOT most according to surveys.

    Also, MOST SUCCESSFUL men don't NEED to change their perspective AT ALL on this subject because they are still able to achieve their goals in terms of the marriages they want.

    This fact is making alot of these women very angry and bitter. There is an entitled mentality to this stuff as well.

    Essentially, these women are telling SUCCESSFUL MEN they should take the woman as she IS and have ZERO demands on her or he is a "sexist" pig while simultaneously demanding very high standards in the male.
     
    #15 DrCommonSense, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  18. DrCommonSense

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    I disagree that its "over at 25". 25 is still quite young.

    If you are a nice person that takes care of yourself physically, has a PLEASANT personality whereby you concern yourself with the man's feelings AS WELL (not just be catered to but look for a MUTUAL relationship), and HAVE physician potential, you will LITERALLY be FAR AHEAD of your peers.

    Im not saying be a doormat either or be "abused" like feminists will call it. You should still RESPECT yourself but CARE/OFFER MUTUAL RESPECT towards a future partner whereby they feel like you can be a TEAMMATE and not someone who just has WANTS without giving.

    The is a HUGE SHORTAGE of those types of women. Feminism has taught MANY women to be very demanding for the men with a hostile personality type while simultaneously calling anything the man wants as "sexist".

    Ergo, feminists state being "pleasant, caring, thin, etc" are all "patriarchal" oppressive things that men should not expect from a woman while they STILL demand men be successful financially, be tall, be in good shape, etc.

    From my experience, most are very full of themselves at 25, aren't really interested in relationships compared to their "career", don't really consider the concept of MUTUAL anything and many don't physically take care of themselves.

    Most of these women still EXPECT men to pay the bills on a dinner date, cater to them, etc. while simultaneously demand "respect as an equal" without real concern for the man. The man is basically just another "check" in their checkbox of things they want on their list instead of a genuine partner they care for.

    You'd be surprised how few ladies even care to change this type of attitude until their 30s when they start "feeling the heat". Many of them just double down on bitterness and demands for the man.

    This is the crux of the problem.

    You are WAY ahead of the curve and should have a good chance of getting the type of man you desire.

    I truly BELIEVE most SUCCESSFUL men would WANT a woman who is going to be a physician but not at the EXPENSE of all those other traits.

    However, a physician female who has ALL THOSE TRAITS plus is a PHYSICIAN will be BETTER than a non physician female at that point for MOST successful men.

    The problem is this is VERY rare these days.
     
    #16 DrCommonSense, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
  19. RuralMedicine

    RuralMedicine Senior Member
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    Obviously the author has put some time and thought into this so I guess I can applaud the effort even if I think some of his premises are a bit naive and short sighted.

    I've been told I am attractive (I certainly don't think I am ugly but I suppose I was raised to value non physical attributes so I don't spend much time rating/comparing myself on this factor) and both my husband and my late fiancé have told me that it was that physical beauty that perhaps opened the door and led them to approach. However, both of them were men of substance who would have quickly lost interest if I hadn't had something behind my eyes. They also both had less earning potential than I did and honestly that was never a deterring factor for me or as far as I know a hang up/issue for either of them. I was dating/engaged to my late fiancé while I was a resident so he was out earning me then but would not have once I finished residency. My husband is a fellow physician but in a lower paying specialty so I earned more than him when we met and throughout our marriage until we had our first child and I worked less than full time. My late fiancé had more potential flexibility in his career and had suggested that perhaps that combined with the financial aspect would be a reason for him to take on more of a primary role with our future kids. We never got the chance to see how that would have actually worked. My husband and I managed to work our schedules around each other and avoid outside childcare by me dropping down to less than full time. This was a joint decision but facilitating breast feeding and the reality that my husband's job couldn't/wouldn't accommodate less than full time were both factors. So far this is working for us and our family but we do continue to re-evaluate as we go.

    I will admit that there was a period in between when I buried my fiancé and met my husband when I wondered if I would end up finding someone else I could love that way but I think that is probably true for many women (or men) who lose a spouse/fiancé at a relatively young age. I don't think I was ever bitter and I really didn't consider it a casualty of my medical education.
     
  20. DokterMom

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    Lovely and intelligent post @RuralMedicine. Written like a woman of substance.
     
  21. PlutoBoy

    PlutoBoy Sic transit gloria mundi

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    A lot of people do not think about their personal lives while preparing for a professional life.

    You need to make your own choices and consider all of the possible outcomes because the truth is not easy to swallow:

    A man in his mid 30s with a medical degree is a highly sought after bachelor while a woman in the same position is often past her prime.

    These are not my beliefs. Empirical evidence shows this is just the way it is.

    Like someone said above, my advice would be to pay as much attention to your love life as you do to your professional goals or you may find yourself with very fancy letters after your name and many certifications but alone nonetheless.

    Ready for another ugly truth?

    Most men are not threatened by a woman that makes more than them. They just prefer a nice, young, and easy going girl over money.

    Secure your men early, ladies. Just food for thought.
     
  22. This topic is very interesting. :):):):)
     
  23. Liontale

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    There is a chance: If any movie director/screen writer read this, they will inspire and create a movie :)
     
  24. dragonfly99

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    The article cited in the original post reeks of misogyny and has poor grammar ("Women’s beauty do hit a brick wall."). There are a few valid points buried in there regarding the realities of fertility (i.e. harder to get pregnant in mid to late 30's or early 40's versus age 20-very early 30's). I don't think it's necessarily true that guys in their 30's don't want to marry a woman in her late 20's-35ish. Also a 28 year old woman is not considered "old" or near the end of marriageable age by most modern American men (especially native-born men in the US that I know). There are regional variations in the average age that people get married as well. For example, I think I recently read that the average age for a 1st marriage in New York was around 30 or so. I had no problem getting dates when I was in my 30's...honestly a guy who is 34 and doesn't want to date a woman who is otherwise compatible because she is 30 or 34, I wouldn't have wanted to date anyway. I think the problem is trying to find time to date as a med student/intern/resident/fellow. Nothing new here ppl, move along. sb247 is right - "Female physicians are smart enough to make the same value judgements made by everyone else. Look at the available pool of potential husbands/wives, set your expectations and deal with the corresponding change in number of viable options then live with those odds or change the expectations.

    It's not suddenly different because they are smart and make more money, maybe different expectations but not a different process"

    I actually disagree that there are "so many" physician women complaining that they can't find a compatible mate. Of course there are people complaining about various things on various blogs...because people like to unburden themselves on blogs, apparently. I never complained that I wasn't married and/or dating another physician but then I did eventually end up marring an MD/PhD when I was in my very late 30's...so go figure.

    Also, there is more than one way to live a "good life". Getting married at a young age and/or having children may not be the #1 priority of all women (or all men). Also, if a women is not sure she wants to have kids yet and/or does want to but hasn't met the right person by early 30's, freezing eggs is a viable option for some. It's not free and it's not totally risk free but it's getting less expensive. Some people get married at a later age but then they become a step-parent or they adopt a kid - obviously, those things could get complex but they work for some people.

    Also, some women in their 30's/40's may marry a slightly older guy (like 35 year old marrying a 40 year old, or 40 year old marrying a 46 year old). It's true that some guys look for a slightly younger wife but that is true not just among physicians who are male, but also other males...
     

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