Forum Members ABFAS/ABPM

[newpodgrad]

Hey guys

While looking for jobs , I inquired with a few local hospitals about how to go about getting privileges.

Several of them sent me info and I wanted to highlight a board concern.

Not sure how to really take it, but here’s a excerpt from one of the docs re: board status.

“Board Certification Requirement means certification from one of the following boards: the American Board of Medical Specialties, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery, or those Boards which may be approved by the Executive Committee to satisfy this Requirement”

As a disclaimer, I’m not a HUGE surgery pod. I enjoyed it , and did it in residency because, well, that’s what we had to do. And I’m fine with my forefoot procedures. I believe I’ve done well with them at my current level. I don’t care to do TARS, scopes mid foot fusions etc. I have no problem referring them out. I took the ABFAS qualifying tests etc, because again, it’s encouraged in residency and passed them.

Looking at this doc, it almost seems like this board required if you wanted to be on staff. The little statement at the end regarding “or those boards” seems like it might open the door for ABPM with some petitioning or something.

What do you guys make of this? I have heard from others that ABPM will get involved with issues regarding privileges etc. Is there more to this picture than meets the eye?

Thanks in advance for everyone’s take

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[air bud]

You are correct, that line is straight out of the talking points. 10,000 have achieved it and over 7,000 are active. Still not the definition of a good ole boys club. It’s comical you think ABFAS is trying to keep people out.

Please see the meme thread....this is addressed

 

[newfeet]

I did take a non surgical job. And I’m ok with that. The last 3 years have been rough. The moment I took this job my wife became ok looking at houses. After 3 years of finding any reason to reject a house we have an accepted offer across the street from the elementary school in a nice suburb. It’s time to settle down.

OMG I was so hopefully back then. I do like my job (could stay here for 25 more years) but my wife isn't a fan of the house and pretty sure we will be house hunting again.

 

[dtrack22]

OMG I was so hopefully back then. I do like my job (could stay here for 25 more years) but my wife isn't a fan of the house and pretty sure we will be house hunting again.

Normally they say it’s cheaper to keep her. But in your case…

 

[newfeet]

Normally they say it’s cheaper to keep her. But in your case…

I got no moves left in me and unless its to become a fancy dean at a new podiatry school in Charlotte or Atlanta or Hawaii. You hear me CPME... build a school in one of those cities.

 

[heybrother]

I got no moves left in me and unless its to become a fancy dean at a new podiatry school in Charlotte or Atlanta or Hawaii. You hear me CPME... build a school in one of those cities.

CPME doesn't choose the location - they just rubber stamp the accreditation! Bad Dum Tss!

 

[shadesofgrey]

Speaking of CPME, did you guys see they also came out with a statement about inappropriate social media posts???

 

[Pronation]

Speaking of CPME, did you guys see they also came out with a statement about inappropriate social media posts???

Folks, I agree 100% with the CPME’s stance that we need to work together for challenges within the profession.

Let’s start with the first major challenge: extreme saturation with a terrible job market and ROI for 7 years of post grad education.

Oh wait…

 

[Feli]

Speaking of CPME, did you guys see they also came out with a statement about inappropriate social media posts???

I love statements about statements?

2022-23 has to be an all-time record for podiatry organization statements, most of them being statements about statements.

 

[heybrother]

Speaking of CPME, did you guys see they also came out with a statement about inappropriate social media posts???

I mean, these statements cost them nothing. All of the podiatry organizations want to go back to where we were a few years ago when the future was bright for them, student matriculation wasn't an issue, and individual podiatry associates were unhappy, quiet, and not coming together to discuss their experiences.

The funniest thing to me about CPME is when they re-accredit your program and you think - we don't deserve to educate podiatrists here BUT I guess I should be grateful that my path out is uninterrupted. And that's how we just keep crawling along as a profession.

 

[air bud]

Folks, I agree 100% with the CPME’s stance that we need to work together for challenges within the profession.

Let’s start with the first major challenge: extreme saturation with a terrible job market and ROI for 7 years of post grad education.

Oh wait…

Sir, that is not helpful. I hereby denounce this.

 

[Pronation]

Sir, that is not helpful. I hereby denounce this.

Problem solved. Thanks!

 

[Feli]

And for the record I was doing 40 cases a year in a rural location and was able to get certified in both foot and rra.

Yeah, but the fact that you had to go far rural to get the cases + income shows how podiatry's overall saturation doesn't mesh well with ABFAS reqs.

I stayed in a metro and ping-ponged around associate jobs, was doing surgery but barely making my minimum loan payments in those years, and it's hard or impossible to collect the case records.

Many others grind out an associate job or whatever job they may find - regardless of quality or income - since there just aren't many places to get the cases and the BQ clock is ticking.

...And sure, it's not ABFAS's fault there were 8 pod schools when I started and now 11 schools less than 20 years later. But that's the world we live in. There could be adjustments made to help DPMs become ABFAS BC without going to the ends of the world or planning the first 5-10+yrs of their career so they can chase cases.

I just don't see what is so hard about mirroring the ABOS process: qualify with tests that are hard but fair, produce hospital logs, face to face BC exam with a few (recent) cases where you are judged more on though process and execution than one's ability to get chase down all XRs and pre-op notes.

 

[Feli]

Perhaps the biggest change to the ABPS / ABFAS process is basically ignored. That is that two major pathways to DPMs getting BC have essentially dried up:

1) Finish a good 2yr or 3yr surgical residency program (which there were relatively few of for awhile), take a PP associate job with an attending or whoever, do any backlog of pent-up demand for surgery, and then do the lion's share of F&A surgery for that group and nearby ones. You'd have numbers fast.

2) Finish a good 2yr or 3yr surgical residency program, then start your own PP. Nearby DPMs would send you cases because they didn't do surgery or did just basic forefoot. Your skillset was still relatively rare, and unless you were super abrasive, you'd have a lot of referrals from colleagues for RRA or even for basic stuff.

...now, with all programs 3yrs and nearly all DPMs "surgical residency," all grads saying they're well trained and do trauma and blah blah, thinking they do surgery well (or at least having someone in their group who does it or thinks that), it's significantly hard to get those cases fast. The only fairly clear path to high surgical volume anymore is organizational jobs or faaar away from other DPMs and groups, especially for finding the RRA cases. Those two major paths above, which many young DPMs ~1990-2010 used for getting a good number of cases and passing BC, are getting to be a distant memory.

Let's face it: for PP podiatry, it's saturated - for any types of patients. For surgical cases and refers, you need to see a LOT of patients to find an appreciable amount of surgery cases - or create or find a unique refer base. You can't just step into or start up those PP jobs out of residency and bang out cases as easy as a surgical DPM could ten or 20 or 30yrs ago. The profession is getting very saturated, the loans are getting too big to stay at bad associate jobs, every residency is now (labeled as) surgical, and the surgical BC process needs to adjust.

Sure, the BQ exams should weed out the truly bad residencies or people who didn't study, but many of them will still be doing those cases to the best of their ability - or even be the "RRA guy" for their pod group. Most of my strongest attendings in training were doing that; getting the refers for surgery (esp RRA) from within and near their group and speeding to BC as their skills were fairly rare at the time. Now, that has to be taken into account that the two above paths that the majority of ABFAS diplomats probably used to get BC are hardly available anymore.

[ Young associates and grads feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and there are tons of PP jobs with surgery refers/cases waiting or startup solo areas with no surgical DPMs nearby, lol. ]

 

[newfeet]

Perhaps the biggest change to the ABPS / ABFAS process is basically ignored. That is that two major pathways to DPMs getting BC have essentially dried up:

1) Finish a good 2yr or 3yr surgical residency program (which there were relatively few of for awhile), take a PP associate job with an attending or whoever, do any backlog of pent-up demand for surgery, and then do the lion's share of F&A surgery for that group and nearby ones. You'd have numbers fast.

2) Finish a good 2yr or 3yr surgical residency program, then start your own PP. Nearby DPMs would send you cases because they didn't do surgery or did just basic forefoot. Your skillset was still relatively rare, and unless you were super abrasive, you'd have a lot of referrals from colleagues for RRA or even for basic stuff.

...now, with all programs 3yrs and nearly all DPMs "surgical residency," all grads saying they're well trained and do trauma and blah blah, thinking they do surgery well (or at least having someone in their group who does it or thinks that), it's significantly hard to get those cases fast. The only fairly clear path to high surgical volume anymore is organizational jobs or faaar away from other DPMs and groups, especially for finding the RRA cases. Those two major paths above, which many young DPMs ~1990-2010 used for getting a good number of cases and passing BC, are getting to be a distant memory.

Let's face it: for PP podiatry, it's saturated - for any types of patients. For surgical cases and refers, you need to see a LOT of patients to find an appreciable amount of surgery cases - or create or find a unique refer base. You can't just step into or start up those PP jobs out of residency and bang out cases as easy as a surgical DPM could ten or 20 or 30yrs ago. The profession is getting very saturated, the loans are getting too big to stay at bad associate jobs, every residency is now (labeled as) surgical, and the surgical BC process needs to adjust.

Sure, the BQ exams should weed out the truly bad residencies or people who didn't study, but many of them will still be doing those cases to the best of their ability - or even be the "RRA guy" for their pod group. Most of my strongest attendings in training were doing that; getting the refers for surgery (esp RRA) from within and near their group and speeding to BC as their skills were fairly rare at the time. Now, that has to be taken into account that the two above paths that the majority of ABFAS diplomats probably used to get BC are hardly available anymore.

[ Young associates and grads feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and there are tons of PP jobs with surgery refers/cases waiting or startup solo areas with no surgical DPMs nearby, lol. ]

What was the reasoning for eliminating the non surgical residencies?

 

[Adam Smasher]

1) Finish a good 2yr or 3yr surgical residency program (which there were relatively few of for awhile), take a PP associate job with an attending or whoever, do any backlog of pent-up demand for surgery, and then do the lion's share of F&A surgery for that group and nearby ones. You'd have numbers fast.

2) Finish a good 2yr or 3yr surgical residency program, then start your own PP. Nearby DPMs would send you cases because they didn't do surgery or did just basic forefoot. Your skillset was still relatively rare, and unless you were super abrasive, you'd have a lot of referrals from colleagues for RRA or even for basic stuff.

...now, with all programs 3yrs and nearly all DPMs "surgical residency," all grads saying they're well trained and do trauma and blah blah, thinking they do surgery well (or at least having someone in their group who does it or thinks that), it's significantly hard to get those cases fast. The only fairly clear path to high surgical volume anymore is organizational jobs or faaar away from other DPMs and groups, especially for finding the RRA cases. Those two major paths above, which many young DPMs ~1990-2010 used for getting a good number of cases and passing BC, are getting to be a distant memory.

This is one of the things that make me wonder about the future for people coming into the profession. There may have been a time where surgical training was really rare and the arrangement where older non-operative doctors funneled case to a younger well-trained surgeon. As time goes on, the non-op docs are retiring, the younger well-trained surgeons have become older well-trained experienced surgeons, and what role is there for new grads?

What was the reasoning for eliminating the non surgical residencies?

Anyone suggesting that residency training is needed to run podiatry clinic is telling a damn lie.

 

[shadesofgrey]

You should be able to get board qualified or certified at any point as long as you pass the test/case requirements. As I've said before, I am a far better surgeon now than when I became board qualified. I hope to become board certified soon but at this time don't see a path to RRA certification within 7 years. However, if I continue to improve my skills, perhaps I would try RRA certification in the future. Why not allow me to requalify RRA and attempt certification at a later date? I don't believe ortho has a deadline. It puts undue pressure on young grads. I understand the hospitals generally require certification within 5 years, but I believe most of them would be satisfied with progress made toward certification (case collection).

I think the problem many of us younger docs have with ABFAS is the combination of firm timeline and the low pass rate. They need to fix one or both of these issues. I will disagree that the low pass rate is truly reflective of only poor training, but could accept the low pass rate without the firm timeline.

 

[DMEpod]

Feli does make a good point with everyone coming out saying they are foot and ankle surgeons after 3 years of meeting the minimal MAV. One thing that could get rid of some of these BS programs is increasing the MAV numbers to reflect better training. The 3 year standard residency was a good attempt to try and standardize our training. The next step would be to actually make the residencies actually offer adequate training. With every new grad being able to offer the 3 year surgical training as a marketing tool although half if not more have no business doing surgery, really reflects poorly on all of us. In the hospital systems,, at least where I practice, it seems podiatry is held down by those that should really re evaluate their surgical practice.

 

[icebreaker32]

What was the reasoning for eliminating the non surgical residencies?

Probably 3 main reasons

1. The leaders decided podiatry was a surgical specialty even though one can still choose a non surgical career if they want. They could have decided the opposite like density.

Why they did this unsure? Probably increased demand for longer surgical residencies from students. Surgery is one of the few things we can do that very few others healthcare providers can. The plan might have worked it there were not so many of us doing foot surgery. They should have decreased enrollment, but that is a hard thing for any school to agree to.

2. Consistent residencies. This does help. It is partially why so many with ABPM can do surgery and get privileges now. When you have high power residences and lower power residences it was not a nice environment. Hospitals would make it much harder for those that did not have the longest possible type of surgical residency to get surgical privileges. Yes podiatrists often helped to create these policies at many hospitals. We still have higher and lower power residencies, but they are on paper the same type.

3. It is the same length as the shortest MD/DO residency. So we could elevate the profession and be seen as real doctors.

 

[Pronation]

Anyone see the ABFAS post about how the case review process is extremely fair?

 

[newfeet]

APMA Statement from 5/12/2023​

​

Follow-Up to Board Certification Summit​

In March, APMA hosted its Summit on Board Certification immediately following the 2023 House of Delegates meeting. The summit was open to all interested parties and a listening-only option was made available to those who could not attend in person. Nearly 200 stakeholders registered to participate or listen. More information and a recording of the event are available at www.apma.org/boardsummit.

The APMA Board of Trustees remains committed to the goal of Vision 2015 of having one unified board to provide board certification for the profession. In pursuit of this goal, APMA has tried to facilitate communication and collaboration among the boards to investigate the establishment and formation of a single certifying board. A unified board could potentially offer a streamlined certification process for podiatric physicians and surgeons. This could result in simplification of the certification pathway and reduce administrative burdens for candidates.

Despite the best efforts of APMA, there does not appear to be the possibility of bringing the boards together for discussion at this time. The boards, as well as CPME, are separate and independent organizations with their own governance, processes, and priorities, and APMA cannot force or rush action on behalf of any of these independent entities. APMA remains committed to working toward the goals of driving an outcome that is in the best interests of the profession; however, this process realistically will be lengthy and complex. Your APMA Board of Trustees will continue to encourage the boards to at least come together to discuss the issue.

 

[619]

Alabama Scope of Practice Modernized to Include the Ankle​

APMA is pleased and proud to announce that the Alabama Podiatric Medical Association (ALPMA) has succeeded in its long-term efforts to modernize the Alabama scope of practice statute. Alabama Governor Kay Ivey (R) signed Senate Bill 28 into law on May 3, updating podiatrists’ scope to include the ankle. The bill will take effect August 1.

APMA’s Center for Professional Advocacy has worked tirelessly with ALPMA to bring about this exciting victory on behalf of our mutual members. This work took root nearly a decade ago at an APMA summit for the then-four states whose scope of practice laws did not allow podiatrists to treat the ankle. Since that time, South Carolina also has been successful in modernizing its scope bill, leaving only our colleagues in Massachusetts and Mississippi without ankle privileges. APMA continues to do battle for its members in those states, supporting the efforts of our component societies to bring their scope laws current with the education, training, and experience of today’s podiatrist. ALPMA is an outstanding example of what our members can accomplish together when they commit to the years of effort that go into effecting legislative change.

In the message announcing this hard-won victory, ALPMA’s Government Affairs Committee chair told members, “The next time you write your check for your APMA dues, remember it is the strength of the association that accomplishes things like this. Personally, I saw things behind the scenes that I was never aware our association was capable of. Your investment in the association reaps incredible returns. If you have colleagues that are not yet members of APMA, let them know what we accomplished and encourage them to join us.”

In sharing the news with APMA, ALPMA leadership expressed their gratitude toward APMA Past President Jeffrey DeSantis, DPM, for the priority he placed on modernizing scope of practice so that all 50 states have the ability to treat the ankle commensurate with our training. They would also like to thank APMA Senior Director, Center for Professional Advocacy and Health Policy and Practice, Scott Haag, JD, MSPH, and Associate Director, Center for Professional Advocacy and Health Policy and Practice, Gail Reese, JD, as well as former staff member Chad Appel, JD, for their valuable insights into the political process. And finally, ALPMA wishes to say a heartfelt “thank you” to all of the members of APMA who supported them in this journey to advance our profession. Together we truly accomplish so much more.

APMA heartily congratulates the members of ALPMA for their hard work and long-term commitment to this goal. APMA will continue to fight for members in Massachusetts and Mississippi to ensure every podiatric physician and surgeon can practice to the full extent of their education and training.

 

[Hybrocure]

The idea that board certification is to “protect the public” is silly. We literally run around operating fresh out of residency without board certification for 5-7 years for the sake of numbers, doing surgeries we don’t want to do. I don’t think it gets more dangerous than that. Once you’ve been operating independently that long the last thing you need is a board telling you that you can’t do surgery.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Alabama Scope of Practice Modernized to Include the Ankle​

FYI: No board certification requirement for access to the license to perform ankle surgery in Alabama, just as it should be.

 

[Hybrocure]

FYI: No board certification requirement for access to the license to perform ankle surgery in Alabama, just as it should be.

Doing the lords work!

 

[JustAPedicurist]

ABPM sent an email for Mother’s Day.

ABFAS didn’t.

Why does ABFAS hate mom’s?

 

[Hybrocure]

ABPM sent an email for Mother’s Day.

ABFAS didn’t.

Why does ABFAS hate mom’s?

Can’t operate if you’re on maternity leave

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Can’t operate if you’re on maternity leave

Does ABFAS hate mothers more or @Feli ?

 

[Feli]

ABFAS sent this out today to BQ (BC?), and it's a decent read... nothing whatsoever about making 9 year olds watch surgery:
Challenging My Own Misconceptions: Case Review

This one has been out since last year also:


...There is some misinfo out, especially on the case reviews, but these both show some insight as to how it works.
I still think it'd be a lot stronger to go back to f2f (as ortho does or ABPS did), but it's not the impossible process we sometimes think it is. It is no date with Keira Knightley either.

 

[RollingstonePod]

ABFAS sent this out today to BQ (BC?), and it's a decent read... nothing whatsoever about making 9 year olds watch surgery:
Challenging My Own Misconceptions: Case Review

This one has been out since last year also:


...There is some misinfo out, especially on the case reviews, but these both show some insight as to how it works.
I still think it'd be a lot stronger to go back to f2f (as ortho does or ABPS did), but it's not the impossible process we sometimes think it is. It is no date with Keira Knightley either.

The letter by Jennifer Seifert, DPM, D.ABFAS, FACFAS (the link you provided) is accurate and it has been that way for years.

FYI, the f2f ABPS did prior to 2014 was only similar to ortho in that candidates met f2f. Ortho reviews a candidate’s cases f2f that have been performed over a set period of time. ABPS asked a candidate questions,f2f, based on case examples. CBPS (computer based patient simulation) took the place of f2f meetings.

 

[AttackNME]

The letter by Jennifer Seifert, DPM, D.ABFAS, FACFAS (the link you provided) is accurate and it has been that way for years.

FYI, the f2f ABPS did prior to 2014 was only similar to ortho in that candidates met f2f. Ortho reviews a candidate’s cases f2f that have been performed over a set period of time. ABPS asked a candidate questions,f2f, based on case examples. CBPS (computer based patient simulation) took the place of f2f meetings.

Wonder how plastics do it, all soft tissue work

 

[619]

Wonder how plastics do it, all soft tissue work

Why do y'all always worry about others. Do you also wonder how ob-gyn do it? I hope it does not keep you up most nights.

 

[heybrother]

Wonder how plastics do it, all soft tissue work

Their patients submit bathing suit / glamour shots and then the guys from Botched judge them.

 

[Feli]

Their patients submit bathing suit / glamour shots and then the guys from Botched judge them.

They actually do submit before/after pics for their ABPlasticS boards pt2 (didactic for part 2).

But hey, at least they don't make a fake CAQ and just let people fire away

Why do y'all always worry about others. Do you also wonder how ob-gyn do it? I hope it does not keep you up most nights.

If our boards didn't suck, we might not worry. In reality, DPMs have one board that's basically fake and currently fragmented (almost everyone passes, basically just another pt 2/3 national, no difficulty or cases review, board just tried to oust a dysfunctional prez and the consequently basically all exam writers/chairs quit). Our primary DPM board has an exam about half of residencies don't prep DPMs well to pass based on the stats. If our board functioned fine (hint: don't need two), then we wouldn't have to look to other specialities for direction and ideas. But that's how podiatry boards are: dysfunctional and confusing, so ppl will naturally look to more legit and successful and functional specialties for guidance.

OB passes a didactic for pt1, accumulates cases of their own, passes standardized cases as well as presents their own cases for pt2 orals.

 

[AttackNME]

Why do y'all always worry about others. Do you also wonder how ob-gyn do it? I hope it does not keep you up most nights.

I’m asking because if we were to do f2f boards and there are candidates who mostly do limb salvage, there aren’t a lot of imaging to scrutinize. It’s mostly soft tissue work and amputations. I’m just curious how other surgical specialties structure their boards when it’s mostly soft tissue. Podiatry advertised as a profession that “does everything”, but the main surgical boards only reviews cases that have some type of bone work, which implies that they don’t think soft tissue or limb salvage work is important.

 

[Weirdy]

Reminder to abstain from ad hominem attacks.
I would rather not have to ninja edit any comments.
Thank you.

 

[Shadowfax12]

Late to realize this but 1750 dollars for an exam is a joke

 

[Feli]

Late to realize this but 1750 dollars for an exam is a joke

I think you forgot the $225 app fee.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Somewhere deep down, in my heart of hearts, I expected this was going to be criticizing CPME for accrediting Samuel Merrit along with all the lousy residencies out there...but no, just another volley in this stupid war

 

[newfeet]

View attachment 373283

Somewhere deep down, in my heart of hearts, I expected this was going to be criticizing CPME for accrediting Samuel Merrit along with all the lousy residencies out there...but no, just another volley in this stupid war

Let them fight! Burn it all down. Maybe we will rise from the ash as a brand new phoenix I mean profession.

 

[Adam Smasher]

All that's going to happen is ABFAS will write about how the people in the email are paragons of integrity and are perfectly capable of compartmentalizing their roles and that will be that.

 

[Shiyuan]

View attachment 373283

Somewhere deep down, in my heart of hearts, I expected this was going to be criticizing CPME for accrediting Samuel Merrit along with all the lousy residencies out there...but no, just another volley in this stupid war

Yuppers.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

View attachment 373283

Somewhere deep down, in my heart of hearts, I expected this was going to be criticizing CPME for accrediting Samuel Merrit along with all the lousy residencies out there...but no, just another volley in this stupid war

I can't think of a valid reason for the reaccreditation of SM. There wasn't even a probationary period. I'm curious if other schools would have received similar treatment.

 

[dtrack22]

View attachment 373283

Somewhere deep down, in my heart of hearts, I expected this was going to be criticizing CPME for accrediting Samuel Merrit along with all the lousy residencies out there...but no, just another volley in this stupid war

Yeah not the 💣 I was waiting/hoping for but like newfeet, I too take pleasure in the chaos.

 

[Feli]

View attachment 373283

Somewhere deep down, in my heart of hearts, I expected this was going to be criticizing CPME for accrediting Samuel Merrit along with all the lousy residencies out there...but no, just another volley in this stupid war

It's grasping at straws at this point. Nothing is more sad-looking and unhinged-acting than a 'leader' who failed his 'legacy' plan and looks like a fool. Pretty pathetic.

I like how ABPM (aka LCR, based on who replies to my ABPM email requests?) is writing that "ABPM" email crying that it's unfair that a few people who are on CPME are/were ABFAS board or exam committee...

Yet he fails to mention that all of the people who were ABPM board and exam committees (who could've had a potential CPME conflict according to his logic) quit on him and his delusions a couple months ago. Good riddance... even if the board couldn't quite vote him out due to crazy bylaws allowing one single vote to prevent it, time will remove him - and very soon. I'm sure we can expect a few more lousy cries for attention, like this email, before that end?

And to remember the whining and moaning that ABFAS and other orgs wouldn't sit to meet with him? Acting as if nothing had happened when ABPM board and exec director all resigned en masse rather than work with him? Cmon. I think it's fairly clear why that is by now.

I don't think my stop payment on my ABPM dues can take effect soon enough.
I feel bad for their appointee board noobs - or whoever gets elected - who are left to run major damage control, try to re-assemble the exam, and clean this mess up and salvage the non-surgery board. It's the joke that keeps on failing.

 

[Shiyuan]

One down....

 

[Shiyuan]

 

[Feli]

We could easily get it down to one real board and one alternate podiatry board.

That way, it's "everyone is board certified" on the surface, but DPMs know who passed a real competence test and who did not.

There will always be at least one alternate board for DPMs, though. Even if 98% passed Abfas didactic (better students and better residency training), a few still won't do surgery to get BC. You will also have a few who get crunched in residency shortages yet need a state license and to to podiatry office/NH cares.

Podiatry training has changed a lot. But the goal is standardization since about 2005. Present day, we don't need 3 alternate podiatry boards anymore. The problem for the current alternative boards is they have to grandfather people with questionable competence to merge the three. It is nothing for Ables and Abmsp to merge when they have nothing to lose (tiny bit of $ perhaps, weren't accredited). Abpm risks more with substantial $$ due to APMA-recognized status, more members, corp edu patrner$, and small seat at Cpme, Apma, residency standards, etc meetings.

...I think the MDs who train surgery but dont practice it can go back and do different residency or study to pass FP boards, and some of their accredited ABMS boards have a non-op path for re-cert (probably not initial cert). DPMs need an alt board, always will.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

View attachment 374364
One down....

Good for them. I think they both came to a table and discussed it.

 

[Shiyuan]

Good for them. I think they both came to a table and discussed it.

I agree. Probably was already in motion prior to the town hall.

What is also interesting is that ABLES was open to MD and DO. Would be interesting to see MD / DO docs as ABMSP diplomates now 😅 (unsure how many there truly are)

 

[icebreaker32]

We could easily get it down to one real board and one alternate podiatry board.

That way, it's "everyone is board certified" on the surface, but DPMs know who passed a real competence test and who did not.

There will always be at least one alternate board for DPMs, though. Even if 98% passed Abfas didactic (better students and better residency training), a few still won't do surgery to get BC. You will also have a few who get crunched in residency shortages yet need a state license and to to podiatry office/NH cares.

Podiatry training has changed a lot. But the goal is standardization since about 2005. Present day, we don't need 3 alternate podiatry boards anymore. The problem for the current alternative boards is they have to grandfather people with questionable competence to merge the three. It is nothing for Ables and Abmsp to merge when they have nothing to lose (tiny bit of $ perhaps, weren't accredited). Abpm risks more with substantial $$ due to APMA-recognized status, more members, corp edu patrner$, and small seat at Cpme, Apma, residency standards, etc meetings.

...I think the MDs who train surgery but dont practice it can go back and do different residency or study to pass FP boards, and some of their accredited ABMS boards have a non-op path for re-cert (probably not initial cert). DPMs need an alt board, always will.

I am not disparaging them but the merged ABMSP and ABLES will be irrelevant when their current members prior to 2005 retire. Hopefully this merger will allow them to remain viable until then.

We need 2 boards, for the foreseeable future

ABPM is not a surgical board. It is just not. No one is saying board certification makes you a great surgeon or you should not be allowed to do surgery without it. That being said most that do surgery are certified by a surgical board in this day and age. Some hospitals might require a surgical board for you to do foot surgery. The ABPM has fought to increase access for its diplomats, but that still does not make it a surgical board.

There are 2 complaints that seem most common with ABFAS. There used to be a third complaint about some doing a lot of surgery but not being able to meet diversity, but I think that has been improved compared to the past.

1. Case documentation

Perhaps some of the documentation requirements could be lessened.

I am also not sure what can be done about former employers not giving over materials, but this needs to be addressed and is a real problem. There has been talk of repercussions, but I doubt anything has been done to these employers.

Failing an exam for missing documents or not enough documentation on chart notes or not enough X-rays is probably a much more common reason for failing than for a screw that is too long or a complication that is well documented.

2. Pass rate on exams too low

There are probably 3 options

1. Make the test easier.

The boards are not directly tied to the colleges admissions standards or lack there of, but the further a pass rate drops below 85 percent the more it does look like gatekeeping.

2. Make the test better.

I am not sure how much better it can be made, but many complain at length about the blurry X-rays.

3. Figure out the reason for the poor performance on the test

Was it due to not studying enough? Not knowing what to study? Not understanding the format and scoring of the test?

I think there is a survey at end of test asking how much one studied, so they are doing this to an extent it seems.

A poor residency? I suppose you can track this, but would anything be done about it? Would residencies with low pass rates be put on probation? Would a list be made with pass rate of residencies? My guess is nothing would be done here anyways.

Was it due to the schools admitting students that were not good test takers with too low of MCATs? Many professional schools have correlated low performance on standardized admission tests and professional licensing exams regardless how one has done in school.

My personal experience here is I have know both good students and weak students to fail ABFAS exams.

The reality is if you are a poor standardized test taker you will have to study. A lot. I am not sure young podiatrists are used to putting that kind of time and effort into a exam. You will probably have to study more than for other exams you have taken thus far.

If you are a very good standardized test taker you might still have to study more than you expect. Many just study hard a few weeks before. This may lead to passing, but barely. Which is fine if you pass. It also sometimes leads to barely failing which means taking the test agin. When this group studies much more they almost always pass next time and it is higher than barely passing.

Certainly studying for a test when one is busy with other things is not easy.