Forum Members ABFAS/ABPM

[newpodgrad]

Hey guys

While looking for jobs , I inquired with a few local hospitals about how to go about getting privileges.

Several of them sent me info and I wanted to highlight a board concern.

Not sure how to really take it, but here’s a excerpt from one of the docs re: board status.

“Board Certification Requirement means certification from one of the following boards: the American Board of Medical Specialties, the American Osteopathic Association, the American Board of Foot and Ankle Surgery, or those Boards which may be approved by the Executive Committee to satisfy this Requirement”

As a disclaimer, I’m not a HUGE surgery pod. I enjoyed it , and did it in residency because, well, that’s what we had to do. And I’m fine with my forefoot procedures. I believe I’ve done well with them at my current level. I don’t care to do TARS, scopes mid foot fusions etc. I have no problem referring them out. I took the ABFAS qualifying tests etc, because again, it’s encouraged in residency and passed them.

Looking at this doc, it almost seems like this board required if you wanted to be on staff. The little statement at the end regarding “or those boards” seems like it might open the door for ABPM with some petitioning or something.

What do you guys make of this? I have heard from others that ABPM will get involved with issues regarding privileges etc. Is there more to this picture than meets the eye?

Thanks in advance for everyone’s take

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[Pronation]

Was it due to the schools admitting students that were not good test takers with too low of MCATs? Many professional schools have correlated low performance on standardized admission tests and professional licensing exams regardless how one has done in school.

We all know that the bottom quarter of the class can barely be trusted to hold a nail nipper…

 

[wakaflocka88]

Our dear colleague Dr. Glaucomflecken eloquently shows us the truth

 

[GreenHousePub]

I agree. Probably was already in motion prior to the town hall.

What is also interesting is that ABLES was open to MD and DO. Would be interesting to see MD / DO docs as ABMSP diplomates now 😅 (unsure how many there truly are)

If it's a number greater than 0 I would be shocked.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Our dear colleague Dr. Glaucomflecken eloquently shows us the truth

Love Glaucomaflecken! He's my fav on TikTok.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

If it's a number greater than 0 I would be shocked.

Me too ...

 

[Feli]

Here is a fun one, from today 07/25/23 email from ABPM :

"... Of great concern to ABPM is the ongoing crisis in student recruitment to the ten (soon to be 11) schools of podiatric medicine around the country. At current levels, 0.8 students fill each available seat across the ten schools, or a 20% vacancy rate with each academic year. Declines in student applications year over year post comparable numbers and have declined 40% from a ten year high of 1,192 applicants in 2013. The student recruitment crisis represents an existential threat not only to the CPME-recognized certifying boards but to the profession itself.

The stakes are high. The need for expert diabetic foot care, the podiatrist’s specialty, among others, will continue to grow over the next several decades. National Institutes of Health research estimates between 21% and 33% of Americans will have some type of diabetes in 2050. Against these projections, the need for more Doctors of Podiatric Medicine is clear. ABPM remains as strong an advocate as ever for the profession of podiatric medicine, but ABPM cannot solve the student recruitment crisis alone. ..."

I won't even embarrass the person who this was quoted to, but it's one of the many appointed (not elected) ABPM board who were replacements after the walkout. Schools being unfilled - with new schools created - doesn't threaten anything. I am frankly not sure if she understands what existential means. ABPM will march on as long as people fail ABFAS... and many do.

If someone who, like their president, did a low quality NYC residency and is without surgical cert or full scope practice can't see the need for better DPM residency training programs and ABFAS board prep/pass rates instead of just filling every new school seat as fast as we can create them, I don't know what to do. That's just wild to be citing "estimates" stats over 25 years in the future with a +/- 50% fudge factor of diabetic growth and not taking into account the many Rx for obesity and DM approved annually now. If that's the logic to base future need for increasing DPMs on speculative stats, that's comical.

It might be wise to look at what is actually going on for DPMs day to day: the low associate pay, the student loan burdens growing, the few hospital jobs, the overall ROI for podiatry faltering, the many inadequate "surgical" residencies and hazy standards for approving / re-approving them due to rapidly growing number of DPM school seats and potentially inflated grad numbers. The knowledge on the ground might trump a shot-in-the-dark prediction or greed of a misguided alternate board that wants memberships to avoid 'crisis'? Cmon.

 

[GreenHousePub]

Here is a fun one, from today 07/25/23 email from ABPM :

"... Of great concern to ABPM is the ongoing crisis in student recruitment to the ten (soon to be 11) schools of podiatric medicine around the country. At current levels, 0.8 students fill each available seat across the ten schools, or a 20% vacancy rate with each academic year. Declines in student applications year over year post comparable numbers and have declined 40% from a ten year high of 1,192 applicants in 2013. The student recruitment crisis represents an existential threat not only to the CPME-recognized certifying boards but to the profession itself.

The stakes are high. The need for expert diabetic foot care, the podiatrist’s specialty, among others, will continue to grow over the next several decades. National Institutes of Health research estimates between 21% and 33% of Americans will have some type of diabetes in 2050. Against these projections, the need for more Doctors of Podiatric Medicine is clear. ABPM remains as strong an advocate as ever for the profession of podiatric medicine, but ABPM cannot solve the student recruitment crisis alone. ..."

I won't even embarrass the person who this was quoted to, but it's one of the many appointed (not elected) ABPM board who were replacements after the walkout. Schools being unfilled - with new schools created - doesn't threaten anything. I am frankly not sure if she understands what existential means. ABPM will march on as long as people fail ABFAS... and many do.

If someone who, like their president, did a low quality NYC residency and is without surgical cert or full scope practice can't see the need for better DPM residency training programs and ABFAS board prep/pass rates instead of just filling every new school seat as fast as we can create them, I don't know what to do. That's just wild to be citing "estimates" stats over 25 years in the future with a +/- 50% fudge factor and not taking into account the many Rx for obesity and DM. If that's the logic to base future need for increasing DPMs on speculative stats, that's comical.

It might be wise to look at what is actually going on for DPMs day to day: the low associate pay, the student loan burdens growing, the few hospital jobs, the overall ROI for podiatry faltering, the many inadequate "surgical" residencies and standards for approving / re-approving them due to rapidly growing number of DPM school seats and potentially inflated grad numbers. The knowledge on the ground might trump a shot-in-the-dark prediction?

If there hadn't been two schools opened up, would there be any vacancy at all? Sounds like a created problem.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Follow the money, young pre-pods.

You wouldn’t invest in something with a poor ROI, this is no different. Take your gamble.

CSPM own website even states a median salary of $104k. Need we say more?

 

[dtrack22]

the few hospital jobs

This is what our professional org (aka lobbying organization, aka APMA) should be actively trying to change. They should use dues and corporate sponsor $ to push some “Podiatric care in every hospital in America” campaign. Use whatever influence and $ you might have to meet with the big wigs at HCA and LifePoint and Baylor Scott & White and…sell them on the need (also $$ profits) of employed podiatry services, podiatry staffed wound care clinics, non-op orthopedic jobs 🤣 (I kid, I kid). That would actually benefit the every day podiatrist. And the future graduates. Annnnd maybe even student recruitment when you have a glut of good paying jobs? Crazy talk, I know.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

This is what our professional org (aka lobbying organization, aka APMA) should be actively trying to change. They should use dues and corporate sponsor $ to push some “Podiatric care in every hospital in America” campaign. Use whatever influence and $ you might have to meet with the big wigs at HCA and LifePoint and Baylor Scott & White and…sell them on the need (also $$ profits) of employed podiatry services, podiatry staffed wound care clinics, non-op orthopedic jobs (I kid, I kid). That would actually benefit the every day podiatrist. And the future graduates. Annnnd maybe even student recruitment when you have a glut of good paying jobs? Crazy talk, I know.

Good idea

 

[Feli]

This is what our professional org (aka lobbying organization, aka APMA) should be actively trying to change. They should use dues and corporate sponsor $ to push some “Podiatric care in every hospital in America” campaign. Use whatever influence and $ you might have to meet with the big wigs at HCA and LifePoint and Baylor Scott & White and…sell them on the need (also $$ profits) of employed podiatry services, podiatry staffed wound care clinics, non-op orthopedic jobs 🤣 (I kid, I kid). That would actually benefit the every day podiatrist. And the future graduates. Annnnd maybe even student recruitment when you have a glut of good paying jobs? Crazy talk, I know.

Yes, for sure.

That would be the logic. That'd be ideal. Currently, we seem content to be those "inventor" people who go on Shark Tank with some weird product they've already produced 5,000 of despite only giving a few to family - and are ramping up to make even more - before seeing if there is a market and how many buyers on the other end. Those products will tend to end up in the dollar bin and the inventors in chapter 7 court soon enough.

As it stands, DPM grads have to "sell themself" to hospitals. That is almost universal. Some do fellowships to try to be more competitive or find connections for the very limited good DPM employed jobs. From their results of most ending up in PP for $150k or less anyways and/or going far from their preferred area to small/rural hospitals or MSGs - as well as the huge numbers of apps for hospital jobs, it's very clear we is greatly over-shooting the demand for podiatrist organizational jobs. You sure don't see MD specialists having to try very hard for 1:1 ROI, or better for most surgeons, on their education and training path. Good product with limited supply sells itself.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Here is a fun one, from today 07/25/23 email from ABPM :

"... Of great concern to ABPM is the ongoing crisis in student recruitment to the ten (soon to be 11) schools of podiatric medicine around the country. At current levels, 0.8 students fill each available seat across the ten schools, or a 20% vacancy rate with each academic year. Declines in student applications year over year post comparable numbers and have declined 40% from a ten year high of 1,192 applicants in 2013. The student recruitment crisis represents an existential threat not only to the CPME-recognized certifying boards but to the profession itself.

The stakes are high. The need for expert diabetic foot care, the podiatrist’s specialty, among others, will continue to grow over the next several decades. National Institutes of Health research estimates between 21% and 33% of Americans will have some type of diabetes in 2050. Against these projections, the need for more Doctors of Podiatric Medicine is clear. ABPM remains as strong an advocate as ever for the profession of podiatric medicine, but ABPM cannot solve the student recruitment crisis alone. ..."

I won't even embarrass the person who this was quoted to, but it's one of the many appointed (not elected) ABPM board who were replacements after the walkout. Schools being unfilled - with new schools created - doesn't threaten anything. I am frankly not sure if she understands what existential means. ABPM will march on as long as people fail ABFAS... and many do.

If someone who, like their president, did a low quality NYC residency and is without surgical cert or full scope practice can't see the need for better DPM residency training programs and ABFAS board prep/pass rates instead of just filling every new school seat as fast as we can create them, I don't know what to do. That's just wild to be citing "estimates" stats over 25 years in the future with a +/- 50% fudge factor of diabetic growth and not taking into account the many Rx for obesity and DM approved annually now. If that's the logic to base future need for increasing DPMs on speculative stats, that's comical.

It might be wise to look at what is actually going on for DPMs day to day: the low associate pay, the student loan burdens growing, the few hospital jobs, the overall ROI for podiatry faltering, the many inadequate "surgical" residencies and hazy standards for approving / re-approving them due to rapidly growing number of DPM school seats and potentially inflated grad numbers. The knowledge on the ground might trump a shot-in-the-dark prediction or greed of a misguided alternate board that wants memberships to avoid 'crisis'? Cmon.

ABFAS doesn’t publish their trend line, and frankly, this is why they’re scared. Instead, and in typical fashion, they used nebulous figures like “10,000 diplomates ever certified” (since 1975 mind you).

Your ad hominem personal attacks on my residency and qualifications is your “safe space”. Hugs.

One day, after your already 10 years of trying, maybe you will get that ABFAS feather in your cap and you can keep all these unqualified people, like me, from maiming patients.

Until then, I’m glad ABPM is good enough for you to keep your surgical privileges and payer credentialing, so you can make a living.

 

[wakaflocka88]

What if we abolish all and any type of medical boards like Dr. Glaucomflocken alluded to as it does not benefit us or the patients. Crazy talk from me.

Edit: credit to @dtrack22 For also bringing this up multiple times in the past.

We do not need certifying boards. It is a money grab.

 

[heybrother]

View attachment 374804

ABFAS doesn’t publish their trend line, and frankly, this is why they’re scared. Instead, and in typical fashion, they used nebulous figures like “10,000 diplomates ever certified” (since 1975 mind you).

Your ad hominem personal attacks on my residency and qualifications is your “safe space”. Hugs.

One day, after your already 10 years of trying, maybe you will get that ABFAS feather in your cap and you can keep all these unqualified people, like me, from maiming patients.

Until then, I’m glad ABPM is good enough for you to keep your surgical privileges and payer credentialing, so you can make a living.

I need to reread the newsletter again, but I was surprised to learn boards organizations have "investments".

 

[newfeet]

I need to reread the newsletter again, but I was surprised to learn boards organizations have "investments".

You have to. You cant the dues or money sit in a regular savings. A lot of non profits have investments. The hospital foundation board I was on had the money donated in investments while they looked for stuff to sponsor.

 

[Feli]

...Your ad hominem personal attacks on my residency and qualifications is your “safe space”. Hugs.

One day, after your already 10 years of trying, maybe you will get that ABFAS feather in your cap and you can keep all these unqualified people, like me, from maiming patients.

Until then, I’m glad ABPM is good enough for you to keep your surgical privileges and payer credentialing, so you can make a living.

I tell people all the time you're a smart, resourceful guy. Nobody debates that.

Thanks for bringing my situation up. I use ABFAS qual for hospitals, payers just fine... I put a stop pay on my ABPM 2023 renew dues after requesting freeze/refund many times due to the 2022-23 chaos and corruption with apointee BOD and extending your prez term. "Extenuating circumstance," no doubt. I am sorry I paid the scam MOC for ten years already... charge that to the game.

...Since you've managed to extend your ABPM president term past what was the elected and slated term and also appointed non-elected directors due to most of the orig directors quitting on you, maybe use the good ideas above and members' monies to do some good? Lobby and have your junior followers lobby and advocate to univ hospital systems, VA, Ascension, HCA, Tenet, etc etc for creating more and better DPM positions and the utility of DPMs as more than just wound wizards. While you politic for more power and more fame and more membership dues and more podiatry school apps, average DPM grads are often taking terrible ROI jobs and facing mountains of debt in a saturated profession.

 

[air bud]

What if we abolish all and any type of medical boards like Dr. Glaucomflocken alluded to as it does not benefit us or the patients. Crazy talk from me.

For the record @dtrack22 has been on the np boards thing for a while.

 

[Shiyuan]

I think VA physician caps are increasing? Should affect DPMs as well. I think surgical DPM now pays more too.

 

[Utvolsdpm]

I think VA physician caps are increasing? Should affect DPMs as well. I think surgical DPM now pays more too.

They aren’t going to pay us any increase at our facility. But the cap is higher so we got that going for us.

 

[Pronation]

Your ad hominem personal attacks on my residency and qualifications is your “safe space”. Hugs.

I disagree that this was a personal attack but I can see how one may be embarrassed or offended by this. I think the most salient point that was brought to the surface was that back when you were in training, one could complete one of the worst residency programs in the country (ie double scrubbing toe amps etc) and still have reasonable job prospects. Unfortunately the glut of graduates has changed the job market tremendously over the past decade, and now a graduate who may have received very subpar training ,such as the NY program that you went to, would have a very very difficult time obtaining any job offer other than the typical 100k associate position. Thanks.

 

[newfeet]

I disagree that this was a personal attack but I can see how one may be embarrassed or offended by this. I think the most salient point that was brought to the surface was that back when you were in training, one could complete one of the worst residency programs in the country (ie double scrubbing toe amps etc) and still have reasonable job prospects. Unfortunately the glut of graduates has changed the job market tremendously over the past decade, and now a graduate who may have received very subpar training ,such as the NY program that you went to, would have a very very difficult time obtaining any job offer other than the typical 100k associate position. Thanks.

My experience is hiring directors, non podiatry chiefs of service etc know nothing about are training programs only other podiatrists care. The directors see 3 years, chief resident on your CV and a connection to the area you are applying to and you have a shot at hospital jobs. But maybe things are that much different 10 years after I got my first hospital job contract.

 

[dtrack22]

My experience is hiring directors, non podiatry chiefs of service etc know nothing about are training programs only other podiatrists care. The directors see 3 years, chief resident on your CV and a connection to the area you are applying to and you have a shot at hospital jobs. But maybe things are that much different 10 years after I got my first hospital job contract.

Yeah to claim that some random hospital CEO has any idea the difference between a garbage podiatry program and a very good one is laughable. In fact, a bad program at a traditionally strong northeast teaching hospital (MD/DO), is likely more attractive than putting “Swedish” on your CV/application

 

[Pronation]

Yeah to claim that some random hospital CEO has any idea the difference between a garbage podiatry program and a very good one is laughable. In fact, a bad program at a traditionally strong northeast teaching hospital (MD/DO), is likely more attractive than putting “Swedish” on your CV/application

I get this argument, but as soon as a well trained podiatrist is onboard at a hospital system, then they will surely set roadblocks for those that did very subpar residency programs with questionable training (such as many of the NY programs) because… podiatry. I mean this is becoming more evident when a lot of these posted job ads ask for certification in the only recognized surgical board in podiatry, ABFAS.

 

[newfeet]

Yeah to claim that some random hospital CEO has any idea the difference between a garbage podiatry program and a very good one is laughable. In fact, a bad program at a traditionally strong northeast teaching hospital (MD/DO), is likely more attractive than putting “Swedish” on your CV/application

All they want to know is you have a license, your board certified (they don't know difference) and you won't be an ass to the staff and patients. Then they are hands off. My first two jobs did not have a chief of podiatry. And my current job does but he is in PP. He is inactive. I am the only employed podiatrist on staff.

I get this argument, but as soon as a well trained podiatrist is onboard at a hospital system, then they will surely set roadblocks for those that did very subpar residency programs with questionable training (such as many of the NY programs) because… podiatry. I mean this is becoming more evident when a lot of these posted job ads ask for certification in the only recognized surgical board in podiatry, ABFAS.

That's true. Luckily both ABPM and ACFAS is in the bylaws of my current hospital. I would always say check the bylaws before you start but if you are ACFAS it doesn't matter.

 

[FutureDPM323]

I hate the argument that anyone makes about the increase in diabetic population. Just because someone is diabetic doesn’t mean they need a podiatrist. I also dislike how we attach our profession to diabetes so anytime a diabetic comes in with a wound, we get called even though a wound care nurse could handle it. Or better yet when I get paged about a foot wound on a patient that actually belongs to the F&A ortho dude. I wonder how many times that F&A ortho dude has gotten paged about a wound on a podiatry patient…

One problem (amongst a plethora) is that podiatry has no idea what it wants to be. And I think that’s also why there’s such a drastic difference in training and why we have two main boards where one board wants us to be a purely surgical profession and the other wants us to be diabetic foot care doctors with surgical privileges (I have nothing against ABPM but that’s just how ABPM comes across to me, Im sorry).

As it stands, I think both boards are useless in the sense that neither are indicative of anyone’s training. I don’t think ABFAS the way it is now, is set up to properly certify anyone. Because there are people who are certified by that board that I wouldn’t let do surgery on my pet rat if I had one and yet they’re doing surgery on human beings. Then there are also people who I know have strong surgical backgrounds, get numbers yet struggle to get certified. And I don’t think ABPM should be certifying people to get them surgical privileges just because they did a “3 year surgical residency.”

The whole profession needs an overhaul and imo it starts with first reducing application numbers, figuring out what this profession wants to be exactly (diabetic foot care doctors or actual F&A surgeons), and then tailoring the residency training to fit that and whichever residency doesn’t meet the standards should be closed down. And the board (ONE BOARD) certification should then reflect that.

But none of the above will ever happen because there’s $$$$ involved so we are all going down on this sinking ship except for the few who’ve managed to get on a lifeboat.

 

[dtrack22]

Good idea

I know. I have plenty of good ideas. And some bad ones. I gave the APMA BOT a fantastic student recruitment idea 10 years ago that would have cost them less money than their stupid “Todays Podiatrist” campaign and would have reached thousands of pre-med students across the country. But why would a pod student (who literally just went through the pre-med/pre-pod process) know more than Caporusso or Garoufalis? I’ve never found us, Podiatrists, to be the brightest lightbulbs in the box. In general.

 

[Feli]

I get this argument, but as soon as a well trained podiatrist is onboard at a hospital system, then they will surely set roadblocks for those that did very subpar residency programs with questionable training (such as many of the NY programs) because… podiatry. I mean this is becoming more evident when a lot of these posted job ads ask for certification in the only recognized surgical board in podiatry, ABFAS.

Correct. or the majority of hosptial jobs and vast majority of podiatrist jobs, a DPM is the gatekeeper.
They know that Grant is better than Yale. They know Lacrosse rocks and Cedars Sinai is a joke for podiatry programs.
They will call residency director and know what to ask. They will call colleagues or past boss.
They know our boards. Underestimate that at one's own job search peril or match ranks of name over quality.

That decision maker DPM typically a well-trained one from the interviews I've ever done, but it still can be a lesser or even TFP at some smaller or VA/IHS places. That latter situ is increasingly less likely unless it's a terrible job/location that cycles pods. MDs being the decision maker is possible but pretty rare unless they have never had a DPM hired at the facility/group. DPMs obviously control the hiring for PPs also, but that has a much higher chance of mediocre-trained or simply money hungry one (generally won't pay much/any higher for well-trained associates vs avg ones).

I have been asked to sort apps at a few offices and a facility I'd worked with, and like all of us, I've had my own app tossed away or pulled for interview call (rarely) based on what else they get for quality ppl interested.
As simplistic as it sounds, time is limited. Due to the sheer volume of apps at good podiatry job posts, it almost invariably goes non-ABFAS tossed out, then lower quality residencies out, then ABFAS qual out (if enough ABFAS cert apps)... final calls/sorting from among the ABFAS cert with good residency + exp. This is assuming the job wasn't decided before it was posted due to nepotism or networked DPM or local residency/fellow candidate or whatever. Happy day

 

[Feli]

I hate the argument that anyone makes about the increase in diabetic population. Just because someone is diabetic doesn’t mean they need a podiatrist....

But they would benefit from an endocrinologist... yet practicing DPMs are over double the number of Endos practicing in the USA.

Endo fellowships are not opening left and right. Curious. Maybe they know something we do not?

I wonder if avg Endo salary is above avg DPM... yep, it is. By about 100k more.
I wonder what salary it'd soon become if they doubled number of endocrinology fellow spots? Can't shrink to prosperity

 

[podwho]

But they would benefit from an endocrinologist... yet practicing DPMs are over double the number of Endos practicing in the USA.

Endo fellowships are not opening left and right. Curious. Maybe they know something we do not?

I wonder if avg Endo salary is above avg DPM... yep, it is. By about 100k more.
I wonder what salary it'd soon become if they doubled number of endocrinology fellow spots? Can't shrink to prosperity

not worth the energy. Some people have their head burried very very deep. Podiatry schools and programs about to get a huge wake up call when capitalism starts knocking.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

I know. I have plenty of good ideas. And some bad ones. I gave the APMA BOT a fantastic student recruitment idea 10 years ago that would have cost them less money than their stupid “Todays Podiatrist” campaign and would have reached thousands of pre-med students across the country. But why would a pod student (who literally just went through the pre-med/pre-pod process) know more than Caporusso or Garoufalis? I’ve never found us, Podiatrists, to be the brightest lightbulbs in the box. In general.

That's because they are career podiometric politicians that we can't seem to get rid of. The older guys that front every administrative position this profession has are parasites. Any well trained graduate or fellowship trained DPM could out perform, out work and outwit any of these podiatrists.

Podiatry needs an overhaul from the top down. People need to step down and let the new generation take over.

 

[icebreaker32]

I am so sick of the schools and politicians stating the increase in diabetes means all podiatrists will be in such demand that we will need more schools. This propaganda has been pushed for decades. Certainly many podiatrists do treat a lot of diabetics, but if this propaganda was true there would be significantly more organizational jobs and better associate salaries by now.

The reality is podiatry will have minimal growth. Any serious increase in demand for our services will be from decreased supply.

We will not all benefit from the kind of demand there is now for mid-levels in the future in our profession from diabetes. Why did medical schools not increase enrollment to prevent their shortage of providers? Somehow our profession with mainly private colleges feels we need to be saturated waiting for this tsunami wave of increased demand from diabetes that never comes.

 

[Susitna]

not worth the energy. Some people have their head burried very very deep. Podiatry schools and programs about to get a huge wake up call when capitalism starts knocking.

Podwho, Actually, Capitalism is knocking and many here don’t like it. Two new schools = competition. Cream rises to the top. Hard workers do better than the entitled. “Local knowledge” and the “invisible hand”…..Adam Smith would be proud!

I never post on here but enjoy the banter.

 

[Feli]

Podwho, Actually, Capitalism is knocking and many here don’t like it. Two new schools = competition. Cream rises to the top. Hard workers do better than the entitled. “Local knowledge” and the “invisible hand”…..Adam Smith would be proud!

I never post on here but enjoy the banter.

Yeah, that's the other (dem/lib) way to look at it. ^
'Gotta get worse before it gets better'... and all that.

By allowing a profession's supply/demand to implode, the only ppl who suffer are the students and grads, though. The stakes are a tad high for that game with barely any DPM grads coming out with under $300K in debt... most significantly more, and compounding in residency. This is a very easy 'crisis' for podiatry to side step when this movie has already been seen to have been handled well or poorly in multiple other health professions (CRNA/MD... vs PharmD/DC, respectively).

By allowing obviously unnecessary schools, resources get spread thin, reduced, budgets lowered. Tuitions rise, match is tougher with lower quality graduate and post-grad edu and more students, student quality gets lower as ROI plummets, jobs are fewer, salaries crash.

Pharmacy already fell flat on their face like this... but they are now visiting the OMFS now and slowly correcting/reducing schools and freezing new schools. Salaries and ROIs for them will take a loooong time to recover, though.

"Nature has made up her mind that what cannot defend itself shall not be defended."

 

[Susitna]

Yeah, that's the other (dem/lib) way to look at it. ^
'Gotta get worse before it gets better'... and all that.

By allowing a profession's supply/demand to implode, the only ppl who suffer are the students and grads, though. The stakes are a tad high for that game with barely any DPM grads coming out with under $300K in debt... most significantly more, and compounding in residency. This is a very easy 'crisis' for podiatry to side step when this movie has already been seen to have been handled well or poorly in multiple other health professions (CRNA/MD... vs PharmD/DC, respectively).

By allowing obviously unnecessary schools, resources get spread thin, reduced, budgets lowered. Tuitions rise, match is tougher with lower quality graduate and post-grad edu and more students, student quality gets lower as ROI plummets, jobs are fewer, salaries crash.

Pharmacy already fell flat on their face like this... but they are now visiting the OMFS now and slowly correcting/reducing schools and freezing new schools. Salaries and ROIs for them will take a loooong time to recover, though.

"Nature has made up her mind that what cannot defend itself shall not be defended."

Actually, you have it backwards….capitalism isn’t the Dem/Lib view.

 

[icebreaker32]

Yeah, that's the other (dem/lib) way to look at it. ^
'Gotta get worse before it gets better'... and all that.

By allowing a profession's supply/demand to implode, the only ppl who suffer are the students and grads, though. The stakes are a tad high for that game with barely any DPM grads coming out with under $300K in debt... most significantly more, and compounding in residency. This is a very easy 'crisis' for podiatry to side step when this movie has already been seen to have been handled well or poorly in multiple other health professions (CRNA/MD... vs PharmD/DC, respectively).

By allowing obviously unnecessary schools, resources get spread thin, reduced, budgets lowered. Tuitions rise, match is tougher with lower quality graduate and post-grad edu and more students, student quality gets lower as ROI plummets, jobs are fewer, salaries crash.

Pharmacy already fell flat on their face like this... but they are now visiting the OMFS now and slowly correcting/reducing schools and freezing new schools. Salaries and ROIs for them will take a loooong time to recover, though.

"Nature has made up her mind that what cannot defend itself shall not be defended."

One thing keeping this career viable is the income based loan repayments.

The minimum amount that must be paid per month just got significantly lowered (cut in half).

One will soon only be required to pay like 5 percent of their income above 225 percent poverty level towards loan repayments and then the total amount of education loans become irrelevant at some point if not making well above associate pay as any balance remaining will be discharged in 20 years.

It is not like those that max out education loans are forced on standard 10 year payment plans. It would be possible someone could take out 400K in loans and pay less than 100K on them over 20 years and have a balance of more than the original 400K discharged.

 

[Boba Foot]

One will soon only be required to pay like 5 percent of their income above 225 percent poverty level towards loan repayments

This part of Biden’s new SAVE IBR only applies toward undergrad loans, unfortunately.

 

[icebreaker32]

This part of Biden’s new SAVE IBR only applies toward undergrad loans, unfortunately.

Yes you are correct.

Even at 10 percent though if living in a high cost of living area with associate pay it could be a similar situation as far as making no progress on principal and having loans discharged.

 

[air bud]

One thing keeping this career viable is the income based loan repayments.

The minimum amount that must be paid per month just got significantly lowered (cut in half).

One will soon only be required to pay like 5 percent of their income above 225 percent poverty level towards loan repayments and then the total amount of education loans become irrelevant at some point if not making well above associate pay as any balance remaining will be discharged in 20 years.

It is not like those that max out education loans are forced on standard 10 year payment plans. It would be possible someone could take out 400K in loans and pay less than 100K on them over 20 years and have a balance of more than the original 400K discharged.

This is a fantastic selling point for going into Podiatry.

 

[Hybrocure]

The way I see it people tithe 10% of income to some churches…this is just my church now lol

 

[Boba Foot]

Yes you are correct.

Even at 10 percent though if living in a high cost of living area with associate pay it could be a similar situation as far as making no progress on principal and having loans discharged.

Yessir, that’s what I‘m going for. Time to start maxing 401k, only getting health insurance that allows HSA and looking for any trick to keep AGI as low as possible. The next 16.5 years is the game of paying as little as possible to loans so I can get the biggest forgiveness. Will be easier to play tax games when I am PP owner in the next 2-3 years.

 

[Feli]

Newest ABPM sideshow acts:

So, there is a president now acting past his expiration date (because the prez elect, and MANY others resigned... after failing to impeach the prez).
Past prez and current prez installed / appointed new new BOD members who gain a "term" they were never elected for.
Past prez, also past position expiration date, is writing this letter to members stating elections have not happened, they will be delayed 6mo (how long does it take to send a notice?)... but he wants to be sure to "recommend" who should be elected - after already appointing who they want with zero member input or vote or nominations???

What a crock. I have never seen anything like this from even a rinky-dink local APMA or hospital committee or something.
I think the volunteers doing pancake breakfasts or eyeglasses collection drives in anytown, USA probably have more organization than this.

Why even have elections at this point? To outwardly appear to be legit? Why not just control the nominations as they did the appointees? Why not remove term limits - instead of just change the rules to elongate them? At any rate, it appears the clown show might just continue indefinitely with non-elected and widely unpopular people past their expiration dates running ABPM.

...APMA needs to seriously consider a freeze the ABPM funding and recognition until they can prove stability.

 

[Adam Smasher]

The annual meeting will be held at a Presents seminar...of course it would

 

[air bud]

There's actually some really interesting stuff going on right now with the American board of internal medicine and moc and stuff like that if anybody is paying attention to that stuff on social media

 

[heybrother]

There's actually some really interesting stuff going on right now with the American board of internal medicine and moc and stuff like that if anybody is paying attention to that stuff on social media

Interesting. Searching for "internal medicine MOC is a scam" took me to all sorts of interesting places. I even found a physician forum that appeared to be more negative than the SDN podiatry forum. They also felt that the NPs are running away with everything.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Interesting. Searching for "internal medicine MOC is a scam" took me to all sorts of interesting places. I even found a physician forum that appeared to be more negative than the SDN podiatry forum. They also felt that the NPs are running away with everything.

Hopefully they set the standard and get rid of these scam boards

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Interesting. Searching for "internal medicine MOC is a scam" took me to all sorts of interesting places. I even found a physician forum that appeared to be more negative than the SDN podiatry forum. They also felt that the NPs are running away with everything.

Nurse practitioners are out of control and they really need to be stopped. They do like 10% of the clinical hours and their academics are a joke. Then they get full autonomy. I personally saw two nurses at our wound care center at my last job go on to get their NP. They did it all online. Their clinical hours were shadowing the MDs who worked in wound care at their regular practices. Now they have more autonomy than me. It is insane.

I got in argument with a NP at my current job about ankle wounds. I found out one of the NPs were referring out ankle wounds to plastic surgery. I asked them why. The patient has had recurrent ankle ulcers for 10 years due to paraplegia and varus ankle. NP told me they are not ortho trained and certain NPs have practice preferences. I told them you just need to fix the deformity to prevent the wound recurrence. Nothing but crickets from them. I personally feel like they feel I am undermining them.

But these NPs dictate referrals. It is BS.

 

[GSfootdoc]

What did everyone who took ABPM use to study ?

 

[Shiyuan]

What did everyone who took ABPM use to study ?

That ACFAOM pink book mostly. Some USMLE Part 3 for gen med. Passed first attempt for both parts

 

[icebreaker32]

Nurse practitioners are out of control and they really need to be stopped. They do like 10% of the clinical hours and their academics are a joke. Then they get full autonomy. I personally saw two nurses at our wound care center at my last job go on to get their NP. They did it all online. Their clinical hours were shadowing the MDs who worked in wound care at their regular practices. Now they have more autonomy than me. It is insane.

I got in argument with a NP at my current job about ankle wounds. I found out one of the NPs were referring out ankle wounds to plastic surgery. I asked them why. The patient has had recurrent ankle ulcers for 10 years due to paraplegia and varus ankle. NP told me they are not ortho trained and certain NPs have practice preferences. I told them you just need to fix the deformity to prevent the wound recurrence. Nothing but crickets from them. I personally feel like they feel I am undermining them.

But these NPs dictate referrals. It is BS.

Many respect PAs as a whole (always some exceptions for certain individuals and programs) much more, but the NP license is so strong and demand is strong for midlevels. The NP curriculum most places is much easier than the BSN. What a joke. Then their first job they are often still learning and getting paid 6 figures to do so. Many go straight from RN to NP with no clinical experience these days which was never supposed to be the case.

Podiatry has come a long way but if we are being honest many MDs probably thought of us the the same way as NPs are regarded by many when podiatrists first got hospital and surgical privileges. Surely some of the pushback was for economic reasons, but there were some serious concerns. I think we are at the point now where most under 40 in the medical field know podiatrists are well trained, but many still know some are much better trained than others as far as surgery and general medicine knowledge. I would say 20 years ago another doctor very often would still advise their family member go to an orthopedic surgeon for even a bunionectomy and now they are almost always advising them to see to a well respected podiatrist.

 

[Adam Smasher]

What did everyone who took ABPM use to study ?

I didn't study at all, just showed up. As I recall, it's pretty detailed on issues surrounding diabetic foot infections. If you're fresh out of residency and took plenty of rides on the pus bus, you'll do well. The remaining content is a mile wide and an inch deep. Agree with using the ACFAOM manual if you're farther out from residency and need a refresher. The pass rate for this test is in the high 80s low 90s so it's a safe bet you'll succeed.