Abortion

[JoltOfFuel]

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Any idea what the going price on an asian baby is? Or can only Angelina Jolie afford those?

 

[pearl158]

My personal opinion about abortion stems from my near-miss with it myself. I grew up in a drug-infested, difficult home. I was unwanted. My mother left Planned Parenthood three times, once as they dilated her cervix.

I do enjoy hearing the opinions of those who came from loving homes where their lives were planned and wanted. They think they have some moral authority to decide whether I, and other unwanted children like me, should live or die. My mother told me that not aborting me was just as "irresponsible" as getting pregnant in the first place. She chose on a whim. And here I am.

There is no way to accurately predict the future of an unwanted child. Any attempt you make to predict that we will be the scum of the earth (as many have suggested) is only your own prejudice brought into the sunlight, shielded by your so-called "acceptance" of women's right to choose. I'm shocked at how you discount us. Your prejudice plagues us along every step of our difficult but valuable lives, far beyond our mother's "choice."

- Former Unwanted Child, Future Doctor

 

[foster033]

Have you ever heard of Judith Jarvis Thomson's famous "Ailing Violinist Analogy".....b/c your argument sounds just like it. You are basically saying that "refusal of life support" is not congruent with "denying a right to life"......hence, the mother has a right to "deny life support" to the fetus w/o being morally responsible of denying any right to life.

haha...actually, yes...my argument is based very much off of her analogy. In all truthfulness most of my response was written a few weeks ago for an ethics class my bf was taking. It was an online course and I was helping him out with some of the arguments he had to post about varies topics...abortion is one I like to debate and gets me a little worked up sometimes so I thought it would be fun to write the response (kind of sad that I enjoy doing hw when I don't have to). Anyway, it seemed relevant to the discussion so I pretty much copied and pasted it here.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

Blah blah blah.

^You can't be that dense...you just can't. 🙁 My points completely went over your head.

"Murder" like the "suicide" example that I used can be morally justified in the secular world. (It's still not "right", but it's understandable.) What if someone had assassinated Hitler in order to protect the Jews? What if I kill a rapist in self-defense?

You know what? Nevermind -- don't respond to any of my questions or future posts. I can't debate with people who are unable to engage in complex thought or understand analogies. 🙁

Someone called me?

I love your salads. 👍

Adoption, anyone?

People aren't adopting children...let alone non-White U.S.-born babies (especially Black ones). Asian babies born outside of the U.S. are very popular though. 👍

I plan to adopt Black and Hispanic children one day. 😍

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

My personal opinion about abortion stems from my near-miss with it myself. I grew up in a drug-infested, difficult home. I was unwanted. My mother left Planned Parenthood three times, once as they dilated her cervix.

I do enjoy hearing the opinions of those who came from loving homes where their lives were planned and wanted. They think they have some moral authority to decide whether I, and other unwanted children like me, should live or die. My mother told me that not aborting me was just as "irresponsible" as getting pregnant in the first place. She chose on a whim. And here I am.

There is no way to accurately predict the future of an unwanted child. Any attempt you make to predict that we will be the scum of the earth (as many have suggested) is only your own prejudice brought into the sunlight, shielded by your so-called "acceptance" of women's right to choose. I'm shocked at how you discount us. Your prejudice plagues us along every step of our difficult but valuable lives, far beyond our mother's "choice."

- Former Unwanted Child, Future Doctor

1. You are a HUGE exception to the rule. (This is coming from a person who has worked -- both unpaid and paid -- with kids who are in the foster care and juvenile justice systems.)

2. The bottom line is I don't care what another woman does with her body as long as it doesn't involve me and is legal under current legislation.

If your mother had chosen to abort you that would be HER decision. Is it right? Is it wrong? Who knows? All some of us are saying is that...

3. We can see (from her point of view) why she would view abortion as a viable option even if we would never choose abortion for ourselves.

4. Never let your feelings get hurt over the ramblings of an anonymous forum.

 

[EpiPEN]

My personal opinion about abortion stems from my near-miss with it myself. I grew up in a drug-infested, difficult home. I was unwanted. My mother left Planned Parenthood three times, once as they dilated her cervix.

I do enjoy hearing the opinions of those who came from loving homes where their lives were planned and wanted. They think they have some moral authority to decide whether I, and other unwanted children like me, should live or die. My mother told me that not aborting me was just as "irresponsible" as getting pregnant in the first place. She chose on a whim. And here I am.

There is no way to accurately predict the future of an unwanted child. Any attempt you make to predict that we will be the scum of the earth (as many have suggested) is only your own prejudice brought into the sunlight, shielded by your so-called "acceptance" of women's right to choose. I'm shocked at how you discount us. Your prejudice plagues us along every step of our difficult but valuable lives, far beyond our mother's "choice."

- Former Unwanted Child, Future Doctor

Respectfully, I would like to point out that having already left the embryo stage, you can't really say how you think now can reflect any decision that might have affected the cell version of you back then. Becuase if it is like saying that if a woman doesn't get pregant as soon as she can, then she is killing half a person every month or so; and that a man is killing millions of possible children each day.

 

[JoltOfFuel]

My personal opinion about abortion stems from my near-miss with it myself. I grew up in a drug-infested, difficult home. I was unwanted. My mother left Planned Parenthood three times, once as they dilated her cervix.

I do enjoy hearing the opinions of those who came from loving homes where their lives were planned and wanted. They think they have some moral authority to decide whether I, and other unwanted children like me, should live or die. My mother told me that not aborting me was just as "irresponsible" as getting pregnant in the first place. She chose on a whim. And here I am.

There is no way to accurately predict the future of an unwanted child. Any attempt you make to predict that we will be the scum of the earth (as many have suggested) is only your own prejudice brought into the sunlight, shielded by your so-called "acceptance" of women's right to choose. I'm shocked at how you discount us. Your prejudice plagues us along every step of our difficult but valuable lives, far beyond our mother's "choice."

- Former Unwanted Child, Future Doctor

While I applaud your success and ability to overcome whatever adversity you encountered in your life, let me give you another side.

I too came from a broken home. I was raised by a single mother who was never home. There were no problems with drugs as you encountered, but what I did experience was beatings from various losers my mother brought home. Two good friends of mine were murdered in broad daylight. Life was rarely "happy" for me or my family.

I have not lived an easy life. There have been plenty of instances where I wished for death as an escape. I would not wish half of my experiences on my enemies, much less a newborn child. Realize that nobody is discounting you - everybody on this board will praise you for what you have accomplished. But realize that we are the exceptions, not the rule. Most of my old friends are not living "valuable" lives. I believe I will make an excellent physician, and a productive member of society. There is no way to predict how people from broken homes will turn out, but I think it is naive to believe that it is far less likely that people like you and I will turn out as relatively well as we have.

 

[Begaster]

^You can't be that dense...you just can't. 🙁 My points completely went over your head.

No, I don't think that's likely. Realistically, I've backed you into a corner and you've decided to "strike back" with insults. I'm sorry that your positions are indefensibly stupid. Perhaps in the future, you will be able to debate a little more intelligibly, without resorting to meaningless arguments that are in no way analogous and, more amusingly, to insults. kthnxbi

 

[rockydoc]

haha...actually, yes...my argument is based very much off of her analogy. In all truthfulness most of my response was written a few weeks ago for an ethics class my bf was taking. It was an online course and I was helping him out with some of the arguments he had to post about varies topics...abortion is one I like to debate and gets me a little worked up sometimes so I thought it would be fun to write the response (kind of sad that I enjoy doing hw when I don't have to). Anyway, it seemed relevant to the discussion so I pretty much copied and pasted it here.

yeah, Im the same way, I wrote a huge paper on all this and consulted several philosophical essays......it really is interesting to see how both sides break it down....obviously there are very intelligient people on both sides...so it is somewhat of a stalemate as far as debates go.....and obviously we dont agree either, haha

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

The US also has the highest percentage population of low-IQ groups (namely blacks and Hispanics) of all the first-world nations.

Are you serious?

 

[EpiPEN]

Can't some of us just say we agree to disagree and leave it at that? I'm usually a fan of heated debates but the insults will have people ducking for cover pretty soon

 

[EpiPEN]

Are you serious?

I think there was some sarcasm in that...

I hope...

 

[pearl158]

But realize that we are the exceptions, not the rule. Most of my old friends are not living "valuable" lives. I believe I will make an excellent physician, and a productive member of society. There is no way to predict how people from broken homes will turn out, but I think it is naive to believe that it is far less likely that people like you and I will turn out as relatively well as we have.

First of all, I don't want anyone's applause.

Secondly, should we be discounted because we are the exceptions?

 

[pearl158]

Respectfully, I would like to point out that having already left the embryo stage, you can't really say how you think now can reflect any decision that might have affected the cell version of you back then.

This is a poorly written sentence. What's your point?

 

[Begaster]

I think there was some sarcasm in that...

I hope...

No, he's basically a rage-filled, misogynistic neonazi. Refer to every other post he has ever made, as well as his blog, and then proceed to report him.

 

[JoltOfFuel]

First of all, I don't want anyone's applause.

Secondly, should we be discounted because we are the exceptions?

We aren't discounted. At least I don't think we are. Nobody is saying that we shouldn't exist, or that we are less than anyone else. Our lives ARE valuable. But we had to endure a lot of **** to get here. A lot of pain that, statistically, would be less prevalent coming from stable homes.

 

[EpiPEN]

This is a poorly written sentence. What's your point?

The point is, your self-association with an unborn fetus is at the risk of being aborted is no longer valid as soon as you have been filled with life's experiences.

If you associating yourself with a group of undeveloped cells is valid, then I could also say that all you women who don't get pregnant every month, you are murderers. My mother decided that she was going to concieve me on the month of May, but if she had on a whim decided to do so in July, then half (roughly) of what I am today wouldn't be here today and she would have murdered that part of me becuase of her "choice"

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

I think there was some sarcasm in that...

I hope...

I thought it was a typo and that he meant low "socio-economic status" but he wrote it more than once. And to think...he's going to be responsible for the lives of these "low IQ groups" one day.

But racism doesn't exist. 🙄

 

[EpiPEN]

No, he's basically a rage-filled, misogynistic neonazi. Refer to every other post he has ever made, as well as his blog, and then proceed to report him.

noted

 

[Depakote]

Move along, nothing to see here. 😏

 

[foster033]

My personal opinion about abortion stems from my near-miss with it myself. I grew up in a drug-infested, difficult home. I was unwanted. My mother left Planned Parenthood three times, once as they dilated her cervix.

I do enjoy hearing the opinions of those who came from loving homes where their lives were planned and wanted. They think they have some moral authority to decide whether I, and other unwanted children like me, should live or die. My mother told me that not aborting me was just as "irresponsible" as getting pregnant in the first place. She chose on a whim. And here I am.

There is no way to accurately predict the future of an unwanted child. Any attempt you make to predict that we will be the scum of the earth (as many have suggested) is only your own prejudice brought into the sunlight, shielded by your so-called "acceptance" of women's right to choose. I'm shocked at how you discount us. Your prejudice plagues us along every step of our difficult but valuable lives, far beyond our mother's "choice."

- Former Unwanted Child, Future Doctor

Just as a disclaimer please do not take this the wrong way.
I'm very happy that you've overcome all the hardships in your life and are now on your way to becoming a doctor and being successful. It is often times very hard to do such a thing and you should be commended for that.
While I understand your personal views based on your situation...you also have to think of the other side. What if you had not turned out so well? And not even you in general...but what if an aborted fetus would have grown up to be a murder or a rapist..since many children that are aborted are unwanted or unplanned it is likely that if they are brought to term the would not be raised in the best of situation making it difficult, although not impossible, for them to become an upstanding member of society. ..
you just never know...so, while it doesn't apply to you, the world could actually be a better place by not having in it the fetus that were aborted. This view is not brought on by my belief that a women has a right to choose, but by the fact that a large percentage of abortions are to women who do not want the children...which can and does lead to many problems in a child's life if it is brought into this world.
But in reality, neither my argument about this or yours is really valid...just b/c you made your life into something really great, doesn't mean that every other person would...

 

[pearl158]

1. You are a HUGE exception to the rule. (This is coming from a person who has worked -- both unpaid and paid -- with kids who are in the foster care and juvenile justice systems.)

2. The bottom line is I don't care what another woman does with her body as long as it doesn't involve me and is legal under current legislation.

If your mother had chosen to abort you that would be HER decision. Is it right? Is it wrong? Who knows? All some of us are saying is that...

3. We can see (from her point of view) why she would view abortion as a viable option even if we would never choose abortion for ourselves.

4. Never let your feelings get hurt over the ramblings of an anonymous forum.

1. Regardless of me being an exception, I'm saying that it's prejudice (founded or unfounded) that allows so many people to make moral "case-by-case" decisions about and unwanted child's right to life.

2. I don't care what you care. I wasn't responding only to you. I chose to share my perspective because I found it unrepresented.

And yes, I believe that my mother's decision would have been wrong. I'm a human being and my life is valuable. I'm glad her bad choices didn't rob me of a joy-filled life.

3. That was my point exactly. It was SO viable for my knocked-up single mother to chose abortion that she was viewed as irresponsible for not aborting me. Suddenly, the open-mindedness of those supporting her choice became just as morally oppressive as the "anti-abortion" crowd.

4. Trust me, I have thicker skin than you must think. This is not about feelings.

 

[pearl158]

The point is, your self-association with an unborn fetus is at the risk of being aborted is no longer valid as soon as you have been filled with life's experiences.

If you associating yourself with a group of undeveloped cells is valid, then I could also say that all you women who don't get pregnant every month, you are murderers. My mother decided that she was going to concieve me on the month of May, but if she had on a whim decided to do so in July, then half (roughly) of what I am today wouldn't be here today and she would have murdered that part of me becuase of her "choice"

I don't see this as a valid argument. This is about my mother almost terminating my life, not about the morality of planning conception. Perhaps if your mother was a crack-addict when she was pregnant with you, you might have a soft-spot for crack-babies, though you are no longer a crack-baby, nor are you at risk of becoming one again.

 

[rockydoc]

The point is, your self-association with an unborn fetus is at the risk of being aborted is no longer valid as soon as you have been filled with life's experiences.

If you associating yourself with a group of undeveloped cells is valid, then I could also say that all you women who don't get pregnant every month, you are murderers. My mother decided that she was going to concieve me on the month of May, but if she had on a whim decided to do so in July, then half (roughly) of what I am today wouldn't be here today and she would have murdered that part of me becuase of her "choice"

I understand your point, but I dont think that the separate egg/sperm are being counted as individuals here. Once they are connected, then I count it as a being who has a hope of a "future like ours" (another famous philosophical stance). Basically Pearl is saying that denying anyone a "future like ours" is wrong and steps outside the boundaries of one's rights....I am just terribly horrified of the thought of one person placing a level of worth on another person's life....to me, some people (not saying you) could easily jump from this into infanticide, euthanasia, killing of mentally handicapped, etc. b/c these people might live a life of struggle......I mean, what's stopping you from systematically killing orphans if they arent adopted by a certain deadline (kinda like dogs in a shelter or something).....I know I going extreme here....but Im just saying that some of these basic views can coincide with more radical and scary ones

 

[pearl158]

Just as a disclaimer please do not take this the wrong way.
I'm very happy that you've overcome all the hardships in your life and are now on your way to becoming a doctor and being successful. It is often times very hard to do such a thing and you should be commended for that.
While I understand your personal views based on your situation...you also have to think of the other side. What if you had not turned out so well? And not even you in general...but what if an aborted fetus would have grown up to be a murder or a rapist..since many children that are aborted are unwanted or unplanned it is likely that if they are brought to term the would not be raised in the best of situation making it difficult, although not impossible, for them to become an upstanding member of society. ..
you just never know...so, while it doesn't apply to you, the world could actually be a better place by not having in it the fetus that were aborted. This view is not brought on by my belief that a women has a right to choose, but by the fact that a large percentage of abortions are to women who do not want the children...which can and does lead to many problems in a child's life if it is brought into this world.
But in reality, neither my argument about this or yours is really valid...just b/c you made your life into something really great, doesn't mean that every other person would...

foster, thanks for using kind, unoffensive language. On a side note, I love the disclaimer. It's like a preemptive apology.

My point is, since none of us have a (functional) crystal ball, your assumptions about how I would have likely turned out and your belief that if I hadn't become "something really great," I should be dead is based only on your own prejudices.

Your bolded statement gets to the point of this argument. How do we all feel about Social Eugenics?

 

[EpiPEN]

I don't see this as a valid argument. This is about my mother almost terminating my life, not about the morality of planning conception. Perhaps if your mother was a crack-addict when she was pregnant with you, you might have a soft-spot for crack-babies, though you are no longer a crack-baby, nor are you at risk of becoming one again.

The point is, at what point can you start associating a fetus as a person. No one can say for sure (and I'm not taking a stand here at this point) if a zygote or even an early stage fetus can be considered a person becuase you can't ask it/him/her for an answer, just like how you can't ask a sperm or an egg. Yet, many sperm and eggs die in mass quantities throughout our lives. In your original post you used the term "us" to group yourself with featuses that were at-risk of being aborted. But the thing is, you are a person already and you can't be associated with a fetus anymore than you can be associated with the millions of sperm and eggs of your parents. You have no memory of that development period so it's very difficult to speak for it.

 

[EpiPEN]

I understand your point, but I dont think that the separate egg/sperm are being counted as individuals here. Once they are connected, then I count it as a being who has a hope of a "future like ours" (another famous philosophical stance). Basically Pearl is saying that denying anyone a "future like ours" is wrong and steps outside the boundaries of one's rights....I am just terribly horrified of the thought of one person placing a level of worth on another person's life....to me, some people (not saying you) could easily jump from this into infanticide, euthanasia, killing of mentally handicapped, etc. b/c these people might live a life of struggle......I mean, what's stopping you from systematically killing orphans if they arent adopted by a certain deadline (kinda like dogs in a shelter or something).....I know I going extreme here....but Im just saying that some of these basic views can coincide with more radical and scary ones

Yeah I get your point. Being a person who is still somewhat in the middle with this issue, I tried to understand both points. But like you said, I was just having a little difficulty here with pearl's association with himself and the unborn fetus. I guess where I'm getting caught up is just why would you say when an sperm and an egg combines that it is now considered a life but not when they are separate. Does the defininition of a human (for you) then exisits when the original genetic coding is created for that person?

 

[rockydoc]

Your bolded statement gets to the point of this argument. How do we all feel about Social Eugenics?

exactly what I am scared of when reading some of these arguments

 

[pearl158]

The point is, at what point can you start associating a fetus as a person. No one can say for sure (and I'm not taking a stand here at this point) if a zygote or even an early stage fetus can be considered a person becuase you can't ask it/him/her for an answer, just like how you can't ask a sperm or an egg. Yet, many sperm and eggs die in mass quantities throughout our lives. In your original post you used the term "us" to group yourself with featuses that were at-risk of being aborted. But the thing is, you are a person already and you can't be associated with a fetus anymore than you can be associated with the millions of sperm and eggs of your parents. You have no memory of that development period so it's very difficult to speak for it.

When I said "us" I meant children who were unplanned and unwanted. I certainly wouldn't imply that I was aware of my predicament as a fetus. I never even said "fetus."

 

[Lacheln]

foster, thanks for using kind, unoffensive language. On a side note, I love the disclaimer. It's like a preemptive apology.

My point is, since none of us have a (functional) crystal ball, your assumptions about how I would have likely turned out and your belief that if I hadn't become "something really great," I should be dead is based only on your own prejudices.

Your bolded statement gets to the point of this argument. How do we all feel about Social Eugenics?

What you are missing is that the argument against women having unwanted babies is motivated by concern for the potential child, not some lack of value placed on human life. It is about not bringing a child into the world with the odds stacked heavily against it - because in some ways doing so could be viewed as cruel. I can't say I wish my mother didn't have me (I mean, that would be a little self-hating), but it could be argued that her having me was irresponsible. If she had aborted I certainly wouldn't be mourning myself (since I wouldn't be here). It's called the difference between potential and actual.

I also don't understand how you can claim that you aren't arguing from a point of emotion. How can you not feel emotion about this?

 

[EpiPEN]

When I said "us" I meant children who were unplanned and unwanted. I certainly wouldn't imply that I was aware of my predicament as a fetus. I never even said "fetus."

who are at risk of being aborted while still a fetus right? It's not like abortion involves clubbing your kid after he/she is born

 

[rockydoc]

Yeah I get your point. Being a person who is still somewhat in the middle with this issue, I tried to understand both points. But like you said, I was just having a little difficulty here with pearl's association with himself and the unborn fetus. I guess where I'm getting caught up is just why would you say when an sperm and an egg combines that it is now considered a life but not when they are separate. Does the defininition of a human (for you) then exisits when the original genetic coding is created for that person?

yeah, for me it starts at fertilization.....of course if I agreed w/ your points about sperm/eggs then I wouldnt have a valid argument at all, haha....when you really get down and dirty with both views, they can each trump each other (Im talking pro-choice vs pro-life) so there can never really be any definitive end to this debate....its just interesting to see why other people hold the views that they do, and what they are basing those views on.

EDIT: I guess the bottom line is that both sides make perfect sense, IF each side's assumptions/foundations about right to life, time of conception, potential vs actual, etc are right....and there is no way to definitively beat one over the other

 

[EpiPEN]

yeah, for me it starts at fertilization.....of course if I agreed w/ your points about sperm/eggs then I wouldnt have a valid argument at all, haha....when you really get down and dirty with both views, they can each trump each other (Im talking pro-choice vs pro-life) so there can never really be any definitive end to this debate....its just interesting to see why other people hold the views that they do, and what they are basing those views on.

EDIT: I guess the bottom line is that both sides make perfect sense, IF each side's assumptions/foundations about right to life, time of conception, potential vs actual, etc are right....and there is no way to definitively beat one over the other

some say that's left for our generation to figure out 😉

 

[rockydoc]

some say that's left for our generation to figure out 😉

haha, our generation is made up of probably the widest range of viewpoints ever encountered....thanks to Post-modernism...i doubt there will be any reconciliation.

 

[pearl158]

What you are missing is that the argument against women having unwanted babies is motivated by concern for the potential child, not some lack of value placed on human life. It is about not bringing a child into the world with the odds stacked heavily against it - because in some ways doing so could be viewed as cruel. I can't say I wish my mother didn't have me (I mean, that would be a little self-hating), but it could be argued that her having me was irresponsible. If she had aborted I certainly wouldn't be mourning myself (since I wouldn't be here). It's called the difference between potential and actual.

I also don't understand how you can claim that you aren't arguing from a point of emotion. How can you not feel emotion about this?

Look, I never accused anyone of hating babies in general. I just put my story out there as an example of what could have been if my mother had chosen to be "responsible" and terminated her pregnancy. If the typical premed population is any indication, most of the people arguing the pro-choice point were never at significant risk of being chosen against.

I do have emotions about this, certainly. I'm not inhuman. I didn't share my story from a place of emotion, though. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that all these open-minded premeds would want to hear another perspective. I was responding to MsKrispyKreme's presumption about hurt feelings.

I've shared my story enough times and had people tell me that by all accounts, I should have been dead and perhaps even retrospectively, it WAS cruel to let me live. I've had enough rude, inconsiderate comments about my socio-economic status, my family's drug habits, and being a bastard-child to grow some thick skin and not be constantly victimized. I have emotions, but I also know not to take any of this too personally. Perhaps by writing a personal account, I was misinterpreted as being "hurt."

 

[pearl158]

who are at risk of being aborted while still a fetus right? It's not like abortion involves clubbing your kid after he/she is born

I left it for you to interpret. You did so as you wished.

 

[foster033]

For me the problem I have with people who are pro-life is that they are making choices for others without any regard to the consequences of those choices....

people complain about welfare, improper funding for education and health care, over crowded foster care systems...the list goes on and on...
some of these problems could be much much worse if abortion were not legal. It needs to be looked at in the context of the world today, not just as is abortion right or wrong...

I guess I'm biased since I'm pro-choice, but at least with that view you aren't forcing your opinions on anyone else...if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. I guess this is part of one of my biggest pet peeves....don't worry so much about what everyone else does, worry about yourself.

 

[EpiPEN]

I left it for you to interpret. You did so as you wished.

please enlighten me as to how else it could be interpreted. How do you have an abortion if we aren't talking about a fetus? Unless you mean like the mother holds up the child over the window and on a whim decides, no it's not worth it to drop.

 

[Lacheln]

Look, I never accused anyone of hating babies in general. I just put my story out there as an example of what could have been if my mother had chosen to be "responsible" and terminated her pregnancy. If the typical premed population is any indication, most of the people arguing the pro-choice point were never at significant risk of being chosen against.

I would agree with you there regarding pro-choice pre-meds, but on the other hand I would venture that most of the people arguing anti-choice haven't seen the realities of what happens to unwanted (or wanted, but unsupported) children. It's one thing to say "all life is sacred, everyone deserves a chance", etc etc and another to look at a 5 year old beaten to a pulp by an abusive parent - what kind of a "chance" is that?

I have emotions, but I also know not to take any of this too personally. Perhaps by writing a personal account, I was misinterpreted as being "hurt."

I was only responding to your comment that you made about not speaking with emotion. It sounded strange to me, since it makes sense that you would have emotion on this subject.

Anyway, trust me when I say that I believe your success is inspiring regardless of the broader issue.

 

[rockydoc]

For me the problem I have with people who are pro-life is that they are making choices for others without any regard to the consequences of those choices....

people complain about welfare, improper funding for education and health care, over crowded foster care systems...the list goes on and on...
some of these problems could be much much worse if abortion were not legal. It needs to be looked at in the context of the world today, not just as is abortion right or wrong...

I guess I'm biased since I'm pro-choice, but at least with that view you aren't forcing your opinions on anyone else...if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. I guess this is part of one of my biggest pet peeves....don't worry so much about what everyone else does, worry about yourself.

Not trying to start a war with you or anything....but most of your replies border on social eugenics, and then you say that you shouldnt worry about what other people are doing.....to me, those two views dont mix well. Dont hate, Im just sayin what I see. Please expound if necessary.

 

[foster033]

foster, thanks for using kind, unoffensive language. On a side note, I love the disclaimer. It's like a preemptive apology.

My point is, since none of us have a (functional) crystal ball, your assumptions about how I would have likely turned out and your belief that if I hadn't become "something really great," I should be dead is based only on your own prejudices.

Your bolded statement gets to the point of this argument. How do we all feel about Social Eugenics?

It's not that I think if you hadn't turned out well that you should be dead, just that your story wouldn't be so compelling if you were say la serial kill locked up in jail. Even if you don't mean it to be it's somewhat of an emotional argument.

 

[ButImLETired]

Hmmm I'd like to add my 2 cents, whatever they're worth, and put myself on the line by arguing the selfish argument that no one here seems to want to mention.
I didn't have an easy life either, but I was extremely wanted and was very lucky altogether, so I'd like to preface this by congratulating those of you who have made it despite having a lot of things stacked against you. I know you're not posting here to be congratulated, but I am still extremely impressed.
I'd also like to say that I am firmly pro-choice. I was raised Catholic, so I'm not sure that I could ever say this to my family, but I am certainly and definitely pro-choice. As many have mentioned, abortion must arguably be one of the most difficult decisions a woman could ever make- and if it's easy, good God, you really shouldn't be a mother anyway. Would I perform abortions? Maybe. I agree with Begaster, however, that I wouldn't differentiate among those women who have been raped and those who simply do not want the baby- I don't feel it is my right to judge their decision one way or the other, and if I don't think abortion is wrong on principle I don't really see any reason to differentiate.
Even more importantly, if I try and see myself in a situation in which I would get pregnant right now, sure, I don't know what I'd do, but I'd give abortion a thought. Call me a b!tch, call me what you want, but yeah, I'd consider it, just as I'd consider adoption. I don't see it as birth control- I'd certainly use precautions- but things happen. Condoms break, the pill isn't 100% effective even when taken super-responsibly. Would I be ready for a child right now? Hell no. It sucks, but I'm realistic. You can argue that it's the responsibility you take on every time you have sex- even when you're being safe- but come on, I don't think anyone on this forum who's sexually active actually thinks about the risks every single time.
And I hate to pull the gender card, but I think it makes a HUGE difference whether you're a guy or a girl. If I were to get pregnant, it would be MY baby, my issue. The father can or cannot participate in the decision, may or may not have opinions on the matter- somehow that responsibility both are supposed to be aware of every time you have sex suddenly becomes all your own.
Sorry if I made anyone angry....I am definitely, to some extent, overdramatizing, trying to play devil's advocate. I do think these are issues that as physicians we'll all have to face and we have to be realistic about people's arguments for it.

 

[pearl158]

For me the problem I have with people who are pro-life is that they are making choices for others without any regard to the consequences of those choices....

people complain about welfare, improper funding for education and health care, over crowded foster care systems...the list goes on and on...
some of these problems could be much much worse if abortion were not legal. It needs to be looked at in the context of the world today, not just as is abortion right or wrong...

I guess I'm biased since I'm pro-choice, but at least with that view you aren't forcing your opinions on anyone else...if you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. I guess this is part of one of my biggest pet peeves....don't worry so much about what everyone else does, worry about yourself.

Perhaps if the choice was between, "Use birth control or have a baby" we wouldn't require so many abortions.

To get to the question of how I would respond to a patient who requested an abortion? I would do what I think is the only medically responsible thing to do. Refer her to a counselor that can refer her to an abortion provider. If she requests my counsel, I will give it to her, but my job is not to prevent her or encourage her to do anything other than what is in her best MEDICAL interest. The problem I've seen is that many pro-choice providers downplay the emotional and medical risks to further their personal agenda. I am not making a statement about all or even most abortion providers, I'm just saying that I have personally witnessed this occurrence many times.

 

[foster033]

Not trying to start a war with you or anything....but most of your replies border on social eugenics, and then you say that you shouldnt worry about what other people are doing.....to me, those two views dont mix well. Dont hate, Im just sayin what I see. Please expound if necessary.

I'm really all about choice...it's not fair for me to decide what is right or wrong for anyone else...

social eugenics is kind of a loaded philosophy, and while I personally agree with some aspects of it (prenatal testing and genetic counseling come to mind) I rarely agree with any one philosophy. I like to pick and choose based on where my beliefs lie, not just believe everything that someone else wrote.

My previous post to pearl was simply stating that things could have turned out good or bad for him and neither is actually a valid argument for or against abortion. It might have been somewhat unclear.

 

[mdmarty]

Abortion is greatly simplified when you define when life begins (individual sperm/eggs, baby is born, 18 years old, etc.). To me, fertilization is the only reasonable definition. Individual gametes cannot form a human, while a zygote can. So therefore, contraception is okay, but the day-after pill or abortion itself is (by definition) 'killing.' Once you establish when/what a life is, everything else doesn't matter.

 

[Lacheln]

Perhaps if the choice was between, "Use birth control or have a baby" we wouldn't require so many abortions.

To get to the question of how I would respond to a patient who requested an abortion? I would do what I think is the only medically responsible thing to do. Refer her to a counselor that can refer her to an abortion provider. If she requests my counsel, I will give it to her, but my job is not to prevent her or encourage her to do anything other than what is in her best MEDICAL interest. The problem I've seen is that many pro-choice providers downplay the emotional and medical risks to further their personal agenda. I am not making a statement about all or even most abortion providers, I'm just saying that I have personally witnessed this occurrence many times.

I agree with the empowerment model - with a couple of exceptions - so yeah, giving the info and letting someone make their own choice is great. I wonder about your comment saying that medical providers play down the emotional and medical risks of abortion though. The medical risks of a pregnancy are far higher than those of an abortion, and (IMO) the main reason people feel emotional trauma after an abortion is because there are hateful people out there telling them they are going to hell and shoving pictures of fetuses in their faces as tools of emotional manipulation. See imnotsorry.com for an alternative viewpoint. Do you think that pro-life counselors provide a realistic assessment of the health and emotional risks to a pregnant woman?

 

[Decepticon]

Either you believe the baby is alive at conception or you do not. If you do, you cannot morally justify abortion for any reason.

Bullsh...

Your argument is based on the premise that taking lives is always bad.

I eat meat, by the way.

 

[pearl158]

It's not that I think if you hadn't turned out well that you should be dead, just that your story wouldn't be so compelling if you were say la serial kill locked up in jail. Even if you don't mean it to be it's somewhat of an emotional argument.

Of course it wouldn't be as compelling, it would support your argument with which I disagree. I used myself as an example to show that there isn't one shared fate among all unwanted pregnancies. Your predictions are based on your own prejudices and can never be proven or disproven, only approximated based on those who were not aborted. I am one of those. I pointed myself out so that you may consider a wider sample than your personal experiences have so far dictated.

 

[rockydoc]

Im sensing the slow decline of this thread...

 

[Begaster]

Bullsh...

Your argument is based on the premise that taking lives is always bad.

I eat meat, by the way.

Lol, yes, it is based on the premise that premeditated murder of a human being, who is wholly innocent (OMG WHAT IF YOU COULD ASSASSINATE HITLER LOLZ), is always bad. Crazy!