Abstract By Liberty University College of Osteopathic Medicine Faculty

[DoctorSynthesis]

will they have residencies connected to the school?? sorry if i'm ignorant, I thought all the students would have to match outside LUCOM....they hardly have rotation sites right??

If you have any other options choose them. Any other DO schools. If you have GPA 3.3> MCAT 25> you don't have to go to lucom

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[Mad Jack]

I already got put on probation for it and not only that I wasn't even deraling the thread. I was merely responding. They all reported me.

Whoa, was it a LUCOM thread?

I usually don't derail on purpose either, I just tend to go off on tangents. Like this one, right now. Tangents are an important part of conversation that can lead to some wonderful dialogue. But then I try to make an effort to get back at the topic at hand ASAP, because those are the rules.

If you have any other options choose them. Any other DO schools. If you have GPA 3.3> MCAT 25> you don't have to go to lucom

I would dare to say, even if you don't have any other options, don't go to LUCOM. It's better to wait a year and reapply than be subjected to their indoctrination and rules for 4 years of your life and have their stain of a name on your diploma forever. I couldn't sleep at night knowing my tuition money was supporting their insane crusades, personally.

 

[OsteopathicHopeful]

Whoa, was it a LUCOM thread?

I usually don't derail on purpose either, I just tend to go off on tangents. Like this one, right now. Tangents are an important part of conversation that can lead to some wonderful dialogue. But then I try to make an effort to get back at the topic at hand ASAP, because those are the rules.

I would dare to say, even if you don't have any other options, don't go to LUCOM. It's better to wait a year and reapply than be subjected to their indoctrination and rules for 4 years of your life and have their stain of a name on your diploma forever. I couldn't sleep at night knowing my tuition money was supporting their insane crusades, personally.

I will definitely keep all of this in mind....I'm hoping to get other acceptances

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I will definitely keep all of this in mind....I'm hoping to get other acceptances

Apply broadly

Whoa, was it a LUCOM thread?

I usually don't derail on purpose either, I just tend to go off on tangents. Like this one, right now. Tangents are an important part of conversation that can lead to some wonderful dialogue. But then I try to make an effort to get back at the topic at hand ASAP, because those are the rules.

I would dare to say, even if you don't have any other options, don't go to LUCOM. It's better to wait a year and reapply than be subjected to their indoctrination and rules for 4 years of your life and have their stain of a name on your diploma forever. I couldn't sleep at night knowing my tuition money was supporting their insane crusades, personally.

Yea official lucom thread. Bad idea I know.

And I agree about the tangents but it can get too far.

But yes you're right never go to lucom!!!

 

[touchpause13]

MJ remember the time you emailed LUCOM and asked about living with your girlfriend and they were like nu - uh? Good times. .

 

[puppylatte]

will they have residencies connected to the school?? sorry if i'm ignorant, I thought all the students would have to match outside LUCOM....they hardly have rotation sites right??

You might be right, but even if other places take LUCOM students for residency, I'd still want to know how easy it is to network. I'd just be worried that it'd still be an "Old Boy's Club" for Creationists. Religious communities are great when you are part of that religion.

 

[icevermin]

How did this school get accredited? ?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

How did this school get accredited? ?

Poor judgment

 

[Mr Roboto]

LUCOM students have spoken to their dean and told him they're living with their SO, he reportedly said "Ok."

I've seen LUCOM students drinking at local bars/restaurants, and have seen them post about it on their social media accounts. They're not trying to hide their behavior.

Their worry should be that Dean Martin ends up being replaced by someone else who could potentially place more of an emphasis on enforcing the conservative rules that are in the handbook.

Sexual misconduct per LUCOM is spending time with someone of the opposite sex alone after dark in any context. Only the opposite sex though lol, cause none of that gay stuff would ever happen at a sexually repressed prison camp like LUCOM.

I saw the ppt from one of his classes. It was pretty amusing to read his strawman arguments against evolution. He was talking about how virulence factors didn't used to be harmful to humans, in contrast supposedly to evolutionists who would believe that they were always dangerous. His understanding of commensalism must be shallow at best.

I raised the antibiotic resistance question last week. Dr. Liu is the name of the professor who allegedly doesn't believe in evolution.

(edit: double post consolidated)

Oh, and btw, some of the spurious information in the journal article has already been taught to the students in class. The bs about sex during menstruation causing endometriosis. Unfortunate.

 

[Mad Jack]

Poor judgment

Unfortunately, judgement doesn't come into the mix. COCA can only set rules. If the school meets the minimum requirements of a COM, they get accredited. There is no room for them to use their judgement in handing out accreditation, they may only make the standards and then determine whether or not schools met the standards, as set, when they applied for accreditation. It's standard for all accrediting bodies in higher education, and the same reason pharmacy schools and law schools have expanded so much- the bodies aren't allowed to limit the number of schools to protect graduate opportunities, as it's not legally allowed in our country. I can't think of a good series of rules that would eliminate LUCOM but also allow good religiously affiliated schools like CUSOM or MUCOM to remain and not result in a constitutional challenge on the grounds of freedom of speech.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Unfortunately, judgement doesn't come into the mix. COCA can only set rules. If the school meets the minimum requirements of a COM, they get accredited. There is no room for them to use their judgement in handing out accreditation, they may only make the standards and then determine whether or not schools met the standards, as set, when they applied for accreditation. It's standard for all accrediting bodies in higher education, and the same reason pharmacy schools and law schools have expanded so much- the bodies aren't allowed to limit the number of schools to protect graduate opportunities, as it's not legally allowed in our country. I can't think of a good series of rules that would eliminate LUCOM but also allow good religiously affiliated schools like CUSOM or MUCOM to remain and not result in a constitutional challenge on the grounds of freedom of speech.

As long as you meet standards you're good? Really? Coca can't just say we don't believe you embody osteopathy or something?

 

[Mad Jack]

As long as you meet standards you're good? Really? Coca can't just say we don't believe you embody osteopathy or something?

Nope. No arbitrary anything allowed. It has to be objective. There's nothing particular to osteopathy that precludes one from being a hyperfundamentalist.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Nope. No arbitrary anything allowed. It has to be objective. There's nothing particular to osteopathy that precludes one from being a hyperfundamentalist.

There should be an exception since DOs aren't all of medical school just one part of them.

 

[user3]

Nope. No arbitrary anything allowed. It has to be objective. There's nothing particular to osteopathy that precludes one from being a hyperfundamentalist.

I am not sure about this. In my opinion, a lot of the accreditation guidelines are pretty subjective and open to a wide degree of interpretation (i.e., "adequate facilities"). The LCME has similar "facilities" guidelines and has put schools on probation for things as minor as "insufficient study space". COCA has the final discretion and final say to determine if an applicant school is meeting standards. I am sure they could easily deny accreditation based on not meeting subjective standards such as "adequate" this and "sufficient" that.

If I'm not mistaken, the burden is on the applicant school to prove they meet these.

 

[Mad Jack]

There should be an exception since DOs aren't all of medical school just one part of them.

Hell, there's nothing particular to medicine that keeps you from being a zealot either. Which honestly isn't a bad thing- there's a lot of fine physicians out there that are conservative Christians and Muslims. But we can't just arbitrarily say CUSOM's brand of religion is right and LUCOM's is wrong on a regulatory level, because America. We can drive awat good applicants until their board scores tank or their match rates are oblivious and they have to close their program. If they can find enough people that buy into their beliefs, that might never happen. But I don't want a school existing that's suckering nonbelievers into living their brand of fundamentalism.

 

[GUH]

OK if you want to make that silly distinction then why would the microbiology professor reject someone for mention micro evolution. Since micro evolution is what the interviewee mentioned.

Do you have proof that this is what happened?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Do you have proof that this is what happened?

It was @sizillyd account of what happened and I believe him.

Here is the quote:

Did anyone have any "strange" moments during their interviews? In my mind I am pouring over my interviews trying to figure out what I did wrong (rejected a couple of days after interview) and one thing I may have done is that I mentioned "evolution" during my interview. I was discussing denitrification with Dr. Liu and he mentioned how different organisms have different but similar processes and I said, "It's amazing how these processes evolved independently and serve similar functions" and he said "Well I wouldn't say 'evolve' but rather they were 'created'."

I'm wondering if I "sealed my fate" with my evolution remark. Especially with his correction. There were a few more "head-cocking" attachFull185688 moments in my interview but this one seems the most pertinent.

*If you were accepted, you may not want to share these moments because they do patrol these boards*

 

[LA1004]

It was @sizillyd account of what happened and I believe him.

Here is the quote:

Did anyone have any "strange" moments during their interviews? In my mind I am pouring over my interviews trying to figure out what I did wrong (rejected a couple of days after interview) and one thing I may have done is that I mentioned "evolution" during my interview. I was discussing denitrification with Dr. Liu and he mentioned how different organisms have different but similar processes and I said, "It's amazing how these processes evolved independently and serve similar functions" and he said "Well I wouldn't say 'evolve' but rather they were 'created'."

I'm wondering if I "sealed my fate" with my evolution remark. Especially with his correction. There were a few more "head-cocking" attachFull185688 moments in my interview but this one seems the most pertinent.

*If you were accepted, you may not want to share these moments because they do patrol these boards*

My 2 cents: that is sizzlids view of what got him rejected. We will never know if he/she was rejected because of that, his grades, shade of hair color, divine inspiration, luck of the draw, adcoms perusing SDN and matching the applicant to the profile, etc. Unless sizzlid contacts the school and they tell him "you got rejected for bringing up evolution" we can only speculate but never know for sure.

 

[Mad Jack]

MJ remember the time you emailed LUCOM and asked about living with your girlfriend and they were like nu - uh? Good times. .

Yeah, that was some quality stuff. Basically told me I should not bother applying, it was great. They also refused to be very specific about their code of conduct, because transparency isn't how they roll.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

My 2 cents: that is sizzlids view of what got him rejected. We will never know if he/she was rejected because of that, his grades, shade of hair color, divine inspiration, luck of the draw, adcoms perusing SDN and matching the applicant to the profile, etc. Unless sizzlid contacts the school and they tell him "you got rejected for bringing up evolution" we can only speculate but never know for sure.

Sure we don't know for sure but the fact siz was corrected is supicous. Grades can't be that bad siz got an interview. I think most likely it was the comment based on liu's background.

 

[touchpause13]

My 2 cents: that is sizzlids view of what got him rejected. We will never know if he/she was rejected because of that, his grades, shade of hair color, divine inspiration, luck of the draw, adcoms perusing SDN and matching the applicant to the profile, etc. Unless sizzlid contacts the school and they tell him "you got rejected for bringing up evolution" we can only speculate but never know for sure.

Despite what the actual reason was, that this is even a possibility is super suspect imo

 

[LA1004]

Sure we don't know for sure but the fact siz was corrected is supicous. Grades can't be that bad siz got an interview. I think most likely it was the comment based on liu's background.

We'll likely never know.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

We'll likely never know.

True but the most likely scenario in my opinion is that evolution comment is what did him in.

 

[LA1004]

Despite what the actual reason was, that this is even a possibility is super suspect imo

It is a possibility at any school to be rejected for your personal beliefs. That's why we will never know the real reason he didn't make it, schools will get in trouble if they suddenly are open about it all.

 

[Mad Jack]

We'll likely never know.

Given LUCOM's outlook, evolution would be a definite GTFO. This is some exaggeration- they are a fundamentalist organization that wants to train fundamentalist physicians.

 

[Mad Jack]

It is a possibility at any school to be rejected for your personal beliefs. That's why we will never know the real reason he didn't make it, schools will get in trouble if they suddenly are open about it all.

They are fully allowed to discriminate based on whether they believe your personal views will clash with their school's culture. They wouldn't get in trouble for it in the slightest.

 

[LA1004]

True but the most likely scenario in my opinion is that evolution comment is what did him in.

Not so, because I had an extensive discussion on other controversial topics that my interviewer and I believed differently and I got accepted. Now, it could have been his approach on the topic, perhaps. If your interviewer has different beliefs than you, say, on Obamacare and you annoy him because of it that probably won't look good and might cause you to be rejected.
I really think the issue is we are making fairly broad assumptions on an n=1 sample of subjective data. I don't like having to assume sizzlid did poorly on his interview and assume other things only he experienced, so I won't comment on him/her anymore.

 

[LA1004]

They are fully allowed to discriminate based on whether they believe your personal views will clash with their school's culture. They wouldn't get in trouble for it in the slightest.

What I mean is saying stuff like "your religion is weird, so we didn't accept you", or "you don't believe in God, so we can't offer you a seat" when a student asks the school why they weren't accepted. Both are discriminatory and would be very bad for any school, which is why they instead say stuff like you wrote or generic "work on your interview skills and consider retaking the MCAT".

 

[Mad Jack]

What I mean is saying stuff like "your religion is weird, so we didn't accept you", or "you don't believe in God, so we can't offer you a seat" when a student asks the school why they weren't accepted. Both are discriminatory and would be very bad for any school, which is why they instead say stuff like you wrote or generic "work on your interview skills and consider retaking the MCAT".

They are actually pretty honest about how they feel about certain things. Like when I emailed them with the girlfriend question, the response was pretty much to marry her or go elsewhere. Just send them an email asking if your believing i evolution will be a hindrance to an education at LUCOM and they'll probably give you a more or less straightforward "apply elsewhere."

 

[LA1004]

They are actually pretty honest about how they feel about certain things. Like when I emailed them with the girlfriend question, the response was pretty much to marry her or go elsewhere. Just send them an email asking if your believing i evolution will be a hindrance to an education at LUCOM and they'll probably give you a more or less straightforward "apply elsewhere."

I was accepted already, religious and a believer in evolution. So it isn't a problem at LUCOM based on my n=1 experience.

 

[Mad Jack]

I was accepted already, religious and a believer in evolution. So it isn't a problem at LUCOM based on my n=1 experience.

I would doubly encourage you to ask Dr. Liu whether it will affect your education via email then. If you're brave enough to, that is. You should know how such an issue will affect you personally, after all.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Not so, because I had an extensive discussion on other controversial topics that my interviewer and I believed differently and I got accepted. Now, it could have been his approach on the topic, perhaps. If your interviewer has different beliefs than you, say, on Obamacare and you annoy him because of it that probably won't look good and might cause you to be rejected.
I really think the issue is we are making fairly broad assumptions on an n=1 sample of subjective data. I don't like having to assume sizzlid did poorly on his interview and assume other things only he experienced, so I won't comment on him/her anymore.

I doubt they would have issues on controversial topics that aren't religious.

Found this online about dr. liu:

"
Yingguang Liu is a young earth creationist affiliated with Creation Ministries International and Professor of Applied Science at Maranatha Baptist Bible College, where he “teaches biology on a level that threatens the neoDarwinian paradigm every day” (he has no educational background in biology). “Creation science should include all scientific studies of creation,” says Liu: “My goal is to equip young Christians with the scientific knowledge and skills needed to strengthen their faith in a world of humanistic chauvinism. Good science done by creationists is a testimony to those who accuse fundamentalist Christians of being ignorant or anti-scientific,” which must be understood in a peculiar light given Liu’s thorough denialism of most of science. His current research interest is human endogenous retroviruses, and he has published such groundbreaking papers as “Were retroviruses created good?” in The Journal of Biblical and Scientific Studies (the article is discussed here; apparently Liu isn’t particularly concerned with facts, but that isn’t particularly surprising).



Together with creationist Charles Soper (who seems to be working in London) he also published “The Natural History of Retroviruses” in Volume 2 of Answers in Genesis’s house journal Answers Research Journal, which is a review paper of research done by other people on this topic. It even raises some challenges to creationism (“The findings of comparative genomics around the syncytin-1 loci is especially challenging to creationists. The gene is well conserved among hominoids – humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and gibbons, but not in the Old World Monkeys”), which the paper dismisses simply as examples of common descent after the Fall degradation of the genome – without even trying to provide evidence or explanation apart from the bald assertion that this is a better alternative explanation to natural selection.



And just to make sure: Maranatha Baptist Bible College is not a place to go for an education in reality-related matters. In addition to Liu, their Applied Science faculty includes people like Bud Downs, a Minister who is working on supplementing biology textbooks with a creationist perspective, and the chair is one Curt Malmanger, who has an MS in mathematics education and a BS in Bible. Needless to say, none of the facutly are scientists or have any background in anything resembling scientific research.



Diagnosis: Typical hardcore creationists who seem equally surprised every time their claims are met with requests for evidence or alignment with reality – when you have Jesus on your side, such requests are rather preposterous, aren’t they?


"


Anyway is it surprising to anyone that he would reject someone based on what @sizillyd said? doesn't surprise me.

Btw this is the retrovirus thing

http://ervs-viruses-or-design.wikispaces.com/Were+Retroviruses+Created+Good?+A+Critique.

 

[LA1004]

I would doubly encourage you to ask Dr. Liu whether it will affect your education via email then. If you're brave enough to, that is. You should know how such an issue will affect you personally, after all.

Oh boy, here we go. I get it, you, touchpause and others detest LUCOM. That is abundantly clear.
So what you are telling me is I have to ask a single professor at LUCOM if their views align with mine before I enter a school? That sounds like a recipe for endless rounds of reapplication searching for the "perfect school". I hope you didn't/don't follow your own own counsel, because it is VERY easy to find fault with any school you apply to. If you haven't found out already, there are no "perfect schools", so you have to pick your battles.
Every school has negatives associated with it, obviously. To me, being a school with no track record is a negative (LUCOM). To others, being a school whose focus is on primary care and not research is another (LUCOM's case). The religious stigma (LUCOM) is a problem to some (perhaps many?) but not to me, however, because every school I attended (even state-funded schools in South America) was religious in nature. I'm used to it and in fact enjoy it. As a husband and father, my wife and I need an environment that is safe, cheap to live in and where we can feel at home and raise our children away from crazy city life. Lynchburg provides just that environment. I need a school that values the student, has excellent facilities with plenty of room to study in and provides me with opportunities to serve the geriatrics population, and LUCOM does just that. I need a school with a good educational structure (lecture based and board focused) which is what LUCOM offers.
All in all, the pros far outweigh the bad in my book, so you will have to forgive me for not going out of my way emailing every Tom, Dick and Harry who teaches at LUCOM to see if their views perfectly match mine.

 

[Mr Roboto]

FWIW... I've seen an e-mail from their admissions dean to an applicant explaining why he felt the applicant didn't "fit in with the mission and vision" of LUCOM. One of the things mentioned was their specific religious beliefs.

They are fully allowed to discriminate based on whether they believe your personal views will clash with their school's culture. They wouldn't get in trouble for it in the slightest.

 

[user3]

I would doubly encourage you to ask Dr. Liu whether it will affect your education via email then. If you're brave enough to, that is. You should know how such an issue will affect you personally, after all.

When you asked about living with your SO, who exactly did you email? Was it someone affiliated with the COM or someone affiliated with the undergrad?

 

[Mad Jack]

Oh boy, here we go. I get it, you, touchpause and others detest LUCOM. That is abundantly clear.
So what you are telling me is I have to ask a single professor at LUCOM if their views align with mine before I enter a school? That sounds like a recipe for endless rounds of reapplication searching for the "perfect school". I hope you didn't/don't follow your own own counsel, because it is VERY easy to find fault with any school you apply to. If you haven't found out already, there are no "perfect schools", so you have to pick your battles.
Every school has negatives associated with it, obviously. To me, being a school with no track record is a negative (LUCOM). To others, being a school whose focus is on primary care and not research is another (LUCOM's case). The religious stigma (LUCOM) is a problem to some (perhaps many?) but not to me, however, because every school I attended (even state-funded schools in South America) was religious in nature. I'm used to it and in fact enjoy it. As a husband and father, my wife and I need an environment that is safe, cheap to live in and where we can feel at home and raise our children away from crazy city life. Lynchburg provides just that environment. I need a school that values the student, has excellent facilities with plenty of room to study in and provides me with opportunities to serve the geriatrics population, and LUCOM does just that. I need a school with a good educational structure (lecture based and board focused) which is what LUCOM offers.
All in all, the pros far outweigh the bad in my book, so you will have to forgive me for not going out of my way emailing every Tom, Dick and Harry who teaches at LUCOM to see if their views perfectly match mine.

I wasn't saying to pick a battle. I'm just saying that if you were to so much as ask "By the way, Dr. Liu, I am a firm believer in evolution. Will this affect my education at LUCOM?" you would likely have your acceptance rescinded. I can't think of a single scenario where a roughly identical question would have the same result at any medical school elsewhere. It isn't about imperfection, it's about straight-up intolerance, which LUCOM is pretty rife with. I do wish you the best of luck with your studies, in any case. MUCOM and CUSOM are excellent alternatives with similar visions though. If you've still got your app floating around, I'd really recommend giving them a shot, as they offer the same sort of pluses as LUCOM without the extra side of crazy authoritarianism.

 

[LA1004]

I doubt they would have issues on controversial topics that aren't religious.

Found this online about dr. liu:

"
Yingguang Liu is a young earth creationist affiliated with Creation Ministries International and Professor of Applied Science at Maranatha Baptist Bible College, where he “teaches biology on a level that threatens the neoDarwinian paradigm every day” (he has no educational background in biology). “Creation science should include all scientific studies of creation,” says Liu: “My goal is to equip young Christians with the scientific knowledge and skills needed to strengthen their faith in a world of humanistic chauvinism. Good science done by creationists is a testimony to those who accuse fundamentalist Christians of being ignorant or anti-scientific,” which must be understood in a peculiar light given Liu’s thorough denialism of most of science. His current research interest is human endogenous retroviruses, and he has published such groundbreaking papers as “Were retroviruses created good?” in The Journal of Biblical and Scientific Studies (the article is discussed here; apparently Liu isn’t particularly concerned with facts, but that isn’t particularly surprising).



Together with creationist Charles Soper (who seems to be working in London) he also published “The Natural History of Retroviruses” in Volume 2 of Answers in Genesis’s house journal Answers Research Journal, which is a review paper of research done by other people on this topic. It even raises some challenges to creationism (“The findings of comparative genomics around the syncytin-1 loci is especially challenging to creationists. The gene is well conserved among hominoids – humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and gibbons, but not in the Old World Monkeys”), which the paper dismisses simply as examples of common descent after the Fall degradation of the genome – without even trying to provide evidence or explanation apart from the bald assertion that this is a better alternative explanation to natural selection.



And just to make sure: Maranatha Baptist Bible College is not a place to go for an education in reality-related matters. In addition to Liu, their Applied Science faculty includes people like Bud Downs, a Minister who is working on supplementing biology textbooks with a creationist perspective, and the chair is one Curt Malmanger, who has an MS in mathematics education and a BS in Bible. Needless to say, none of the facutly are scientists or have any background in anything resembling scientific research.



Diagnosis: Typical hardcore creationists who seem equally surprised every time their claims are met with requests for evidence or alignment with reality – when you have Jesus on your side, such requests are rather preposterous, aren’t they?


"


Anyway is it surprising to anyone that he would reject someone based on what @sizillyd said? doesn't surprise me.

Btw this is the retrovirus thing

http://ervs-viruses-or-design.wikispaces.com/Were+Retroviruses+Created+Good?+A+Critique.

Your point is to prove he believes in Creationism? That is already abundantly clear. Stop chewing on fat and get going on the meat.
The real question is, can religious institutions do scientific research? Can religious institutions teach medicine? Can people like Dr. Liu teach biochemistry? Can graduates of these schools become awesome doctors? That is the real question.
Have you tried asking actual students these questions or you don't believe in the scientific process with this issue?

 

[Mad Jack]

When you asked about living with your SO, who exactly did you email? Was it someone affiliated with the COM or someone affiliated with the undergrad?

Someone from the COM. I PMed you a copy of the email so you can look over his response yourself. The staff there is very friendly, but also very, very strongly believes in their vision for a hyperfundamentalist curriculum and that one must live by their standards if they are to attend the school.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Your point is to prove he believes in Creationism? That is already abundantly clear. Stop chewing on fat and get going on the meat.
The real question is, can religious institutions do scientific research? Can religious institutions teach medicine? Can people like Dr. Liu teach biochemistry? Can graduates of these schools become awesome doctors? That is the real question.
Have you tried asking actual students these questions or you don't believe in the scientific process with this issue?

Clearly they can't do good research

 

[Mad Jack]

Your point is to prove he believes in Creationism? That is already abundantly clear. Stop chewing on fat and get going on the meat.
The real question is, can religious institutions do scientific research? Can religious institutions teach medicine? Can people like Dr. Liu teach biochemistry? Can graduates of these schools become awesome doctors? That is the real question.
Have you tried asking actual students these questions or you don't believe in the scientific process with this issue?

My point was to say that you literally aren't allowed to openly profess the views you personally believe, under penalty of likely losing your admission. You're generally allowed to believe as you will at other schools, and open debate is encouraged. Science is about the sharing of ideas, research requires questions, questions that often arise from a dissent of opinion. If an institution doesn't allow for dissent, how can they train people to be proper scientists? How can they call themselves a scientific institution at all?

 

[LA1004]

I wasn't saying to pick a battle. I'm just saying that if you were to so much as ask "By the way, Dr. Liu, I am a firm believer in evolution. Will this affect my education at LUCOM?" you would likely have your acceptance rescinded. I can't think of a single scenario where a roughly identical question would have the same result at any medical school elsewhere. It isn't about imperfection, it's about straight-up intolerance, which LUCOM is pretty rife with. I do wish you the best of luck with your studies, in any case. MUCOM and CUSOM are excellent alternatives with similar visions though. If you've still got your app floating around, I'd really recommend giving them a shot, as they offer the same sort of pluses as LUCOM without the extra side of crazy authoritarianism.

I'm glad the application game is over. I had three interviews (PNWU Oct 18th, Seton Hill Aug 12, and LUCOM Aug 18) and will be attending LUCOM unless PNWU wows me.
FYI, if you didn't know already, LUCOM knows my file, so they know I believe in evolution. They also know I believe in God, am Mormon, that I have a family, and enjoy playing soccer. They know my grades and MCAT and based on all that they still accepted me. No way I'm drinking your kool-aid of intolerance and authoritarianism, my experience was totally opposite.

 

[Mad Jack]

*shrug* as a married Mormon with kids, I'm sure you'll be fine. For the vast majority of applicants, who are young, single and looking, that likely enjoy a drink now and again, who believe in science and evolution, LUCOM is not the place to go. Those are the people I'm trying to steer away, because they'd be absolutely miserable.

 

[Mr Roboto]

Sounds like you'll fit in fine, then.

I'm glad the application game is over. I had three interviews (PNWU Oct 18th, Seton Hill Aug 12, and LUCOM Aug 18) and will be attending LUCOM unless PNWU wows me.
FYI, if you didn't know already, LUCOM knows my file, so they know I believe in evolution. They also know I believe in God, am Mormon, that I have a family, and enjoy playing soccer. They know my grades and MCAT and based on all that they still accepted me. No way I'm drinking your kool-aid of intolerance and authoritarianism, my experience was totally opposite.

 

[LA1004]

Clearly they can't do good research

Thay who? Be specific. They the professors? They the school? Be a good scientist and give a complete answer. Ambiguity doesn't become us. (Twilight zone!)

 

[Mad Jack]

Thay who? Be specific. They the professors? They the school? Be a good scientist and give a complete answer. Ambiguity doesn't become us. (Twilight zone!)

As we've seen by the abstract posted in this thread, they are likely incapable of good research.

 

[user3]

*shrug* as a married Mormon with kids, I'm sure you'll be fine. For the vast majority of applicants, who are young, single and looking, that likely enjoy a drink now and again, who believe in science and evolution, LUCOM is not the place to go. Those are the people I'm trying to steer away, because they'd be absolutely miserable.

from sizillyd:
"My second interviewer, Dr. Liu, is an extremely conservative bigoted individual. For example, during my interview he said the school was looking for more conservative individuals to set a good precedent for successive classes. He said they had admitted a few Mormon individuals but he was worried because they may have an agenda at the school."

 

[user3]

Oh boy, here we go. I get it, you, touchpause and others detest LUCOM. That is abundantly clear.

as well as our beloved adcom, Goro

 

[LA1004]

*shrug* as a married Mormon with kids, I'm sure you'll be fine. For the vast majority of applicants, who are young, single and looking, that likely enjoy a drink now and again, who believe in science and evolution, LUCOM is not the place to go. Those are the people I'm trying to steer away, because they'd be absolutely miserable.

I see your point. I wouldn't say absolutely miserable though, LUCOM has a paintball arena under construction and a Snowflex arena - wouldn't that be fun?

 

[LA1004]

as well as our beloved adcom, Goro

I am well aware, thank you. I think with time he will be more at peace with it, as he is with Loma Linda for instance.

 

[Mad Jack]

I see your point. I wouldn't say absolutely miserable though, LUCOM has a paintball arena under construction and a Snowflex arena - wouldn't that be fun?

I'd rather have my girlfriend in my apartment after dark and an ice cold beer, personally.