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You must answer Yes if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must anwer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition.
Lizzy
Trust me, I know what it says on the AMCAS page. But not even all written laws are right as written, not everything is "right" just because it's a written policy...
I know by "do you what you think is right" you're telling me you think I should be honest, but honesty is not a fair thing in some cases, and this is one of them. If I thought i would actually be treated fairly if I gave this information, then I'd have no problem with it, because it was nearly a decade ago and I've done infinitely more good with my life than that one minor offense. But you and I both know that I wouldnt be treated the same or even given a real chance to defend myself, and that's the problem. But I guess it can't be helped when you have one committee looking at 5,000 applications, right?
Let's say I would otherwise be a fantastic, wonderful physician. Hell, maybe I'd be one of the people to cure cancer one day. You have no idea what skeletons people have in their closets, most far worse than cheating on a three page paper their freshman year of college. I work with patients now and everyone I have ever worked with, physicians, managers, professors, etc, think I'd be great at a career in medicine.
however, my grades are only mediocre for whatever reasons. It's irrelevent at this moment, but let's say it wasn't due to my lack of intelligence. Let's say I rock the MCAT. I have a distinct feeling even if my grades were also stellar, I wouldn't be given a fair chance at admission because of this one little indiscretion. Because I made a poor choice, cheated on a three page paper, I'd probably be overlooked at many schools for an interview to even explain myself. They wouldnt care, right?
In some cases, honesty is not fair nor the best policy, and in my case, it's true. that one moment in my life would be used as a gauge for all my abilities, despite the fact that it was an isolated incident. So i hate to say it, but I'd rather be measured by everything else I've done than have my ENTIRE record mean NOTHING because of this one thing. Or am I completely crazy to think so?
I know of a guy who had a DUI, ran over and killed a 45 year old man. Due to family connections, money, what have you, this douche is out free and clear, never had to do anything, never got a record. Got off on a "technicality". This douche was also admitted to an Ivy medical school. Will be be a bad doctor? Not necessarily. But to think that because his DUI didn't make it onto a piece of paper he could be admitted to a school, and I couldnt because of cheating on a three page paper sickens me. People get away with things all the time. i don't see how what i've done is so horrible in the grand scheme of things....
A lack of other infractions and a character witness. Own up. You screwed up, you learned your lesson, tell them that you can be an inspiration to others who are feeling hopeless because they did stupid shi t as a kid. Stop whining.What "data" are you talking about? lol, i don't think there was anyone following me around for the next 8 years of my life to see if i ever cheated again so im not sure how else that would be really proven. Even though I never did it again, I feel like many adcomms would just assume that since i did it once, I must have done it lots of other times and just never got caught, which is a logical assumption to make, however inaccurate in my particular case.
Christ, what is it with people on this board? There's a couple of nice ones, but by and large there are some viscious, malevolent people on this board. Seriously, have they got nothing better to do than attack, attack, attack people they dont know?
Thanks for that totally mature response. I can tell from the way you responded that you aren't an adcomm, or anything close to an adult. And if you are either of the above, I am further entrenched in my opinion that idiots can go far in life. So cheers to that. Please do tell if you have any relevant advice other than your own superior opinion based on.....nothing?
the example of the guy and his DUI was an example not meant to go in interviews, but only for the purposes of this post elaborating on how many people get what they do not deserve who have done far worse than I have. You obviously missed the point, but that's by the by. Im frustrated and I was ranting. No need to be insulting.
My GPA is the only weak part of my application and I've been told by plenty of adcomms I spoke to that given my other application areas, if I did well on the MCAT I'd have a very good chance of getting in. I have a very obvious upward trend in grades (freshman year sucked, but steadily went up to a 3.8 senior year.) Post bacc-was all A's and a couple of B's, with only one C+, the last of which I got because I was not able to go to one , single class because of a medical issue. I'd say getting two points away from a B- in orgo 1 without having ever studied or gone to class is pretty good. I have plenty of direct patient-care experience working in a hospital for three years, working in other medical settings for two years, research experience, volunteer experience, internships in hospitals as an undergrad, and stellar LOR's from professors, doctors, supervisors, etc. So think before you speak, because a GPA is not the only thing they look at. Im a non=trad applicant and I know I make the initial cut-off with most schools im interested in, and after that the only that that would really hold me back is a low MCAT, which i do not intend on getting.
And no, I did NOT make an F in the class. They let me finish the class as normal. I've never failed a class in my life. There is NOTHING on my transcript to indicate any academic probation, or anything of the sort.
Christ, what is it with people on this board? There's a couple of nice ones, but by and large there are some viscious, malevolent people on this board. Seriously, have they got nothing better to do than attack, attack, attack people they dont know?
Do what you think is right.
yes, but somehow I feel like they would find a more tactful way of addressing my GPA than "by the way, your grades suck and you aren't getting in just because of that. Peace out, whiney bi-atch", which is essentially what some people are telling me on here.
And by the way....i wasnt asking on an assessment of my grades getting me into med school. I was simply asking if i find that there is NO record ANYWHERE of me having this incident, would it really be the smart thing to do to put it on the application. I mean, how will they find out if there is not one piece of paper on this planet that indicates anything happened?????? Am i missing some secret cave where my university might keep files forever and ever and ever?
AND, I guess i forgot to mention, but I did appeal the situation. i honestly cant remember the end result. i know they didnt give me any harsh repurcussions. At worst, I might have gotten academic probation for six months. I was not withdrawn from the class, I did not fail any class, I have no indication on my transcript. My school obviously didn't think it was that big of a deal....enough to essentially give me a warning.
Are you all telling me that if you were positive that there was absolutely no record in the world of you having done anything wrong, you would tell the adcomms anyway?
Are you all telling me you've never done anything bad in your life? I see people on here having infractions for underage drinking and people going so far as to tell them to take sobriety classes for this. Does this mean I should tell the adcomms that I drank underage even though I never got in trouble for it? That I tried pot when I was younger? Hell, ive tried more than pot in my lifetime, but I never made a habit of trying it more than once, should I tell them that too? Should I tell them there might have been one time when i was 12 that i stole a pack of gum from the corner store? How about that time I lied to my mother once about a trip I took. I said I went with a girl friend of mine but i really snuck off with a boyfriend she didnt like. that was bad, I must be a massive liar, right? Everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes, but most people, apparently, are judgmental, and think they are perfect, and that is exactly why i don't want to reveal this one tidbit about my past. Not because I think there is something wrong with me, but sometimes to convince it to other people is like trying to convince a devout christian that God doesn't exist. A lot of trouble and not really worth the effort.
it is, however, irrelevant that I've saved several patients lives, that I've volutneered endless hours to places out of my own desire before I even decided to apply to med school, or any other decent thing I've done in my life?
Argh, frustrations.
Are you all telling me that if you were positive that there was absolutely no record in the world of you having done anything wrong, you would tell the adcomms anyway?
Are you all telling me you've never done anything bad in your life?
A person who committed an academically dishonest act as a freshman justifies lying about it on an application years later.
Claims to have turned away from dishonest behavior.
Doesn't seem to be telling the truth.
Are you all telling me that if you were positive that there was absolutely no record in the world of you having done anything wrong, you would tell the adcomms anyway?
For the sole reason that this is likely to be impossible to determine whether or not there is no record anywhere, you are advised to include it. Moreover, even if there is no official "record" of the incident, you never know who will still remember it. What if, for example, someone affiliated with your letters of recommendation happens to be aware of it? It would raise a lot of red flags to see that be mentioned in a letter, yet not by you on the AMCAS application. There's no denying that some adcoms may not like to see such a stain in your history. But, you also have a lot of tools at your disposal to try mitigating the damage. You can write essays about how you've grown, engage in extracurricular activities that demonstrate integrity, and get to know individuals who can speak on behalf of your positive attributes. There's no way to determine the efficacy of these endeavors, that's for sure. But, realize that adcoms - just like us premeds - come in all shapes and sizes, and there are bound to be some who are more forgiving and open than others. You can only help to bring these individuals out of the woodwork by being honest and emphasizing how you've learned from your mistake and grown since then. This is an additional reason for you to apply broadly come the summer that you begin your application.And by the way....i wasnt asking on an assessment of my grades getting me into med school. I was simply asking if i find that there is NO record ANYWHERE of me having this incident, would it really be the smart thing to do to put it on the application. I mean, how will they find out if there is not one piece of paper on this planet that indicates anything happened?????? Am i missing some secret cave where my university might keep files forever and ever and ever?
Are you all telling me that if you were positive that there was absolutely no record in the world of you having done anything wrong, you would tell the adcomms anyway?
Are you all telling me you've never done anything bad in your life? I see people on here having infractions for underage drinking and people going so far as to tell them to take sobriety classes for this. Does this mean I should tell the adcomms that I drank underage even though I never got in trouble for it? That I tried pot when I was younger? Hell, ive tried more than pot in my lifetime, but I never made a habit of trying it more than once, should I tell them that too? Should I tell them there might have been one time when i was 12 that i stole a pack of gum from the corner store? How about that time I lied to my mother once about a trip I took. I said I went with a girl friend of mine but i really snuck off with a boyfriend she didnt like. that was bad, I must be a massive liar, right? Everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes, but most people, apparently, are judgmental, and think they are perfect, and that is exactly why i don't want to reveal this one tidbit about my past. Not because I think there is something wrong with me, but sometimes to convince it to other people is like trying to convince a devout christian that God doesn't exist. A lot of trouble and not really worth the effort.
it is, however, irrelevant that I've saved several patients lives, that I've volutneered endless hours to places out of my own desire before I even decided to apply to med school, or any other decent thing I've done in my life?
Argh, frustrations.
MissIntrigued said:it is, however, irrelevant that I've saved several patients lives, that I've volutneered endless hours to places out of my own desire before I even decided to apply to med school, or any other decent thing I've done in my life?
I was in a Presidential Honors scholars program as a freshman and we were required to keep up a 3.5 GPA. I didn't do it the fall semester and was given a warning. I couldn't bring it over 3.5 after my spring semester and I was discharged from the program. I never cheated: I just got crappy grades. The only record of it was a letter I received in the mail. I never lost my scholarship and it was never listed on my transcript.
That said, I disclosed it on my AMCAS anyway because though relatively minor, why would you want to take the chance of someone finding out eventually and if you were lucky enough to hold an acceptance, to have it revoked? I think having an IA on my AMCAS (even something like mine) probably hurt my chances to interview at certain schools, but I've already been accepted so it didn't hold me back that much.
Again, I think LizzyM said it best: Do what you think is best. You know the rules and the potential consequences of circumventing them. Make your decision and live with it.
MissIntrigued, I'd encourage you to come clean on your application. While plagiarism is indeed a serious blemish, Admissions Committees can understand/forgive an early slip-up - even one as significant as this. Show you have the integrity a career as a physician demands and own your mistakes. Good luck!
One revision to your post - LizzyM said to do what the OP thinks is "right," not "best." Big difference...
*sigh* Im not trying to get support for anything, and i havent made up my mind on what to do yet. Im a little frustrated because i forgot this even happened until i looked at the AMCAS app the other day and suddenly realized it. It was so long ago I even got the semester wrong in which it happened, I had to go back and look for the class on my transcript because i happened to remember the subject it was in.
Im not a dishonest person, generally. I give the little white lies like anyone else. Don't lie about big things that hurt anyone else. I work with patients every day in a hospital right now and am ethical to the umpteenth power about touchy and sensitive issues I have to deal with in my cases on a daily basis. When it comes to work and school , I know you are hesitant to believe me, but that was honestly the only time in my life I ever lied about something that was supposed to be my own work. It really was.
*sigh* seriously, of any website i've ever been on, ive never been attacked so much as this one. What gives? I didnt want to get into some ethical debate here....
One revision to your post - LizzyM said to do what the OP thinks is "right," not "best." Big difference...
*sigh* seriously, of any website i've ever been on, ive never been attacked so much as this one. What gives? I didnt want to get into some ethical debate here....
*sigh* seriously, of any website i've ever been on, ive never been attacked so much as this one. What gives? I didnt want to get into some ethical debate here....
I received 12 months of academic probation. I was able to complete the class, but received a "0" on the assignment in question that was plagiarized. it has been 8 years since this happened, and I fear now that despite everything else, no one will even give me a chance to explain anything.
Ok, so, out of curiousity. If you got my application and my explanation of what happened, would you actually even look at the rest of the application to consider an interview? And , let's assume the rest of my application warranted an interview, would you even give it to me? Honestly?
*sigh* not WILLING to falsify anything, otherwise I would have clicked "submit" already on the AMCAS instead of staring at the same question over and over wondering if it is going to be the end of my medical career. I work in healthcare now, but Im not sure I could stay if my dreams of going to med school bunk. I've been frustrated, pulling my hair out for days wondering how I could have 1) forgotten this happened at all, but then again, its been like a decade and 2) done it all to begin with.
My explanation and scenario are something like this, give or take, identifying info changed for anonynimty , etc (and yes, in case you were wondering, my first instinct was to say "yes" and write an explanation. I just didn't submit it yet as ive been so damned upset over this). :
(in a sum, this isnt word for word):
basically, about ten years ago, I was having difficulty adjusting to being far away from home for the first time. I was working a full time job, had a full courseload, and was very depressed most of the time. Towards the end of the semester I was feeling overwhelmed , and remarked to a friend that I had this short paper to write and while I knew what I wanted to write, I felt frozen and couldnt get it out. this supposed friend offered to help me, and i let him. It was my lapse in judgment, a poor choice on the part of an immature 18 year old who should have known better. I got caught, and was given an honor code violation with 6 months academic probation. I was allowed to finish the class. Ten years later I look back and don't recognize the decision making that I seem to have possessed back then. I wish I had a really good reason for doing what I did, but I don't. I believe the fact that I essentially wanted to kill myself most of the semester and could barely get out of bed half the time was a big problem and clouded alot of judgement, but how am i supposed to convey that? I get the idea that most people view mental illness as an excuse, or not a real problem, so for that reason I didnt even want to try to explain that part of my history. I really havent ever done anything of the sort before that incident, and never again certainly after that incident. I work in a hospital now, as I said, as a nurse and I NEVER, EVER have lied on a patient's chart, records, treatment history, etc. NEVER. Even when Ive made a mistake. I just dont know how else to convey that I regret my actions and that it was not representative of my abilities or future aspirations or actions. Med schools don't want excuses, and yet they want a reason, but when you give a legitimate reason, it just sounds "like an excuse".
im not sure what to say to represent myself and make them understand at the same time that that one incident isnt any indication of how i'll do in med school or as a doctor. I feel just....I dont know. I dont know what to do anymore, i dont know what to say. The responsibility with my action ultimately lays with me, that much I know, but how do I prove that this wasnt a matter of course for me as far as school work goes? ten years later and that professor, who stranglely enough after the honor code hearing told me "dont worry about it, it'll be fine" (bollocks), doesnt even work there anymore. Getting a letter from him to attest to my performance after that incident is impossible. I have letters from other professors attesting to my performance, letters from doctors, letters from supervisors, letters from volunteering....is that enough "character referance?"
im not sure what to say to represent myself and make them understand at the same time that that one incident isnt any indication of how i'll do in med school or as a doctor. I feel just....I dont know. I dont know what to do anymore, i dont know what to say. The responsibility with my action ultimately lays with me, that much I know, but how do I prove that this wasnt a matter of course for me as far as school work goes? ten years later and that professor, who stranglely enough after the honor code hearing told me "dont worry about it, it'll be fine" (bollocks), doesnt even work there anymore. Getting a letter from him to attest to my performance after that incident is impossible. I have letters from other professors attesting to my performance, letters from doctors, letters from supervisors, letters from volunteering....is that enough "character referance?"
Medical schools require you to answer this question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable the Medical schools to more effectively evaluate this information within the context of your credentials.
Man oh man. Everyone on this thread needs to get off their soap box and give the OP a break! Worse things have happened in this world. OP, remember that advice from the anal students on SDN are given with this thought in their minds: "If she lies and gets accepted, that's unfair to me because I was honest! WAHHH!!!" So ignore the negative comments from premeds. Also, it's a slippery slope to say that since the OP has considered making one small lie about an incident way back when, that she won't have the moral compass to be a great doctor. Total hogwash. OP, with that said only if you are 100% certain that the institutional action has been expunged should you leave it out of discussion. Good luck, and stay positive.
P.S. The best way to stay positive is to stay off SDN!
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"For all sad words of tongue and pen,
The saddest are these: It might have been!"
Don't forget that.