Academics vs PP...how to choose?

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GASPER20 said:
It comes down to your tolerance to burnout and whether you value time or money more. You make more money in PP but the work can get exhausting with long hours. I just started PP and am already starting to feel the burn out.
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Hey maybe if you're lucky the country will shut down again and we will stop elective cases
 
GASPER20 said:
It comes down to your tolerance to burnout and whether you value time or money more. You make more money in PP but the work can get exhausting with long hours. I just started PP and am already starting to feel the burn out.
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This is not necessarily true, and is very practice dependent. Plenty of PP’s out there where you will end up working less to generate the same paycheck you would be getting in academics.
 
SaltyDog said:
This is not necessarily true, and is very practice dependent. Plenty of PP’s out there where you will end up working less to generate the same paycheck you would be getting in academics.
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that is definitely true, I feel like I work at most equivalent hours to academics and probably less most of the time all for a much fatter paycheck. I mean the big academic hospital might have a slightly better rate on commercially insured patients, but they are also diverting a bunch of revenue to go pay for money loser parts of the hospital (and to support research and what not) where as all our profit ends up in my pocket. Also more than a few academic hospitals have terrible payer mixes.
 
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SaltyDog said:
Do you get the start-up units, or do they monkey with those also?

ASMG pays 1unit/10mins, but only 1/2 the start-up units in a effort to emphasize time on the stool more than case selection.
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Yeah we take 1/2 of the start up units 🙁
 
SaltyDog said:
This is not necessarily true, and is very practice dependent. Plenty of PP’s out there where you will end up working less to generate the same paycheck you would be getting in academics.
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I'm curious to what most average academic places are making (low 300's?) and with how many hours (50hr/week?). Maybe I am working too hard out here -_-"
 
narcotics999 said:
So it is nice to do a three hour lap chole as long as the surgeon does not kill the pt?

Side Q: how many units for a block? I got half.
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blocks are untimed procedures and paid at a fixed rate unrelated to timed units although you can do some math to convert them to figure out how many timed units they would be equivalent to although that conversion varies from one contract to the next, sometimes significantly. For example at one place they might get $100 per timed unit and $500 for a TAP block while across town they get $110 for a timed unit and $350 for a TAP block.
 
GASPER20 said:
I'm curious to what most average academic places are making (low 300's?) and with how many hours (50hr/week?). Maybe I am working too hard out here -_-"
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340s base pay (350s after board certified) with extra pay for any weekend work and any work past 530pm at our program. Plus all the stellar benefits. No nights, 1 weekend required per quarter. Minimal academic requirement. LOCL area.
 
330k, 340k once board certified. 50-55hrs average. Extra pay if after 5 pm or take extra call. Average call 1 weekend per month. 9-10 weeks PTO. Our 401k is put 6% in and then match it 9%. Medical is free including reimbursement of premium.
 
abolt18 said:
340s base pay (350s after board certified) with extra pay for any weekend work and any work past 530pm at our program. Plus all the stellar benefits. No nights, 1 weekend required per quarter. Minimal academic requirement. LOCL area.
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Just to add, 403b is 5% employee contribution with 10% employer match. And access to 457.
 
abolt18 said:
340s base pay (350s after board certified) with extra pay for any weekend work and any work past 530pm at our program. Plus all the stellar benefits. No nights, 1 weekend required per quarter. Minimal academic requirement. LOCL area.
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abolt18 said:
Just to add, 403b is 5% employee contribution with 10% employer match. And access to 457.
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That sounds pretty sweet. If you work 1 weekend a month, I assume it is prob around 380s plus some yearly incentive, which would be make it around 400, plus the match. I doubt I can find an academic gig like that in the east coast.
 
JiPo said:
That sounds pretty sweet. If you work 1 weekend a month, I assume it is prob around 380s plus some yearly incentive, which would be make it around 400, plus the match. I doubt I can find an academic gig like that in the east coast.
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Pick up a few extra weekends and late days (which lead to early out days) and you can definitely achieve mid to high 400s.
 
Justice4all said:
390k. Avg 1 call a month. 45-55 hrs. 8-9 weeks vacation. OK retirement benefits ~5% . Similar to other options. No difference with board certification.
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GassYous said:
Mine is similar
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Which academic gig is paying this in the midwest? Pm me if you want to keep it private. Thanks!
 
abolt18 said:
340s base pay (350s after board certified) with extra pay for any weekend work and any work past 530pm at our program. Plus all the stellar benefits. No nights, 1 weekend required per quarter. Minimal academic requirement. LOCL area.
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how many hours per week?
 
I know WCI has said it before, but I am always impressed by how large the pay differences are within this specialty compared to between specialties
 
sethco said:
I know WCI has said it before, but I am always impressed by how large the pay differences are within this specialty compared to between specialties
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I don’t think it’s unique to this specialty. ENTs at my place can work hard and approach $1M and my friend across town makes about 350. But he golfs twice a week.
 
abolt18 said:
1730h on weekdays.
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Then assume a schedule of at least 7-5:30 on regular non-call workdays, regardless what you're told, until proven otherwise. 😉

That's 52.5 hours, before any call. Few academic/corporate places will let you leave much earlier, especially as a junior attending.
 
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FFP said:
Then assume a schedule of at least 7-5:30 on regular non-call workdays, regardless what you're told, until proven otherwise. 😉

That's 52.5 hours, before any call. Few academic/corporate places will let you leave much earlier, especially as a junior attending.
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A very fair assumption and almost certainly accurate. Only thing that helps balance that is you can sign up for late days which gets you off early the next day, and you still get paid for that time after 5:30pm.
 
What sort of academic requirements are required at these jobs? Is it publish or perish type thing? Do you have to complete yearly QI projects? Lectures? Are any of you working at home on those academic requirements?
 
FFP said:
Then assume a schedule of at least 7-5:30 on regular non-call workdays, regardless what you're told, until proven otherwise. 😉

That's 52.5 hours, before any call. Few academic/corporate places will let you leave much earlier, especially as a junior attending.
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Heh. If I'm there past 530 it is a bad day
 
MirrorTodd said:
What sort of academic requirements are required at these jobs? Is it publish or perish type thing? Do you have to complete yearly QI projects? Lectures? Are any of you working at home on those academic requirements?
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Depends on the individual .No publish or perish here. No QI requirements except for ABA one. Some monetary incentives per quarter attached to lectures or QI( small change).
However, rising through the academic ranks will be much easier if u do some those things.
Sometimes I spent an hour finishing up a paper at home but I have admin time to do it at work too. Not too stressful.
 
Justice4all said:
Depends on the individual .No publish or perish here. No QI requirements except for ABA one. Some monetary incentives per quarter attached to lectures or QI( small change).
However, rising through the academic ranks will be much easier if u do some those things.
Sometimes I spent an hour finishing up a paper at home but I have admin time to do it at work too. Not too stressful.
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That's good to hear. Having additional work after work would be my biggest worry going in to academics.
 
MirrorTodd said:
What sort of academic requirements are required at these jobs? Is it publish or perish type thing? Do you have to complete yearly QI projects? Lectures? Are any of you working at home on those academic requirements?
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My place offers 5 tracks.
Tenure is rare and hard core research, as in 0-20% clinical. Think running your own lab, grant funding dependent. Difficult to promote, up or out. (Very few do this.)

Academic track is 25-50% protected time, promotion is challenging and it is up or out. You can’t flounder there and then magically become reborn as a clinical faculty, you’ll be gone. There is annual scrutiny of progress and mentoring for success. (~40%)

Clinical track has 10-30% protected time, usually handles admin stuff to free up time for the academic folks to focus on that, but not always. Some people in this track are actually quite productive and could have been clinical track. They get more protected time. Up or out doesn’t apply. Challenging to promote to associate, very challenging to promote to full professor. There is mentorship here as well, but it’s hard to publish and run programs, educational initiatives, etc. with only 2 days off a month. (~60%)
They all have a minimum of 100 hours of educating trainees required per year. Things have different values, and it’s complex, but not hard to do for a full time anesthesiologist. You get screwed when you’re doing workshops, etc. for attendings only. I cheat by making a trainee of some kind come when I do these. Lol.

QI projects, etc. are ongoing and you can participate or develop your own. There’s a Qi committee.

The goal is for every faculty member to develop some area of interest and focus within the first 3 years so that you can concentrate on that and use it for promotion efforts. You can change your focus, but if you’re all over the place you’ll be an assistant professor forever as the committee won’t ever see your packet.

The other 2 tracks are part time and per diem. Neither have a faculty appointment, come with different benefits (or none), and have different clinical requirements. Teaching isn’t required and has no value to these tracks. Usually they’re done by folks on the way out, or if they can’t get a faculty appointment for some reason (rare).
 
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abolt18 said:
A very fair assumption and almost certainly accurate. Only thing that helps balance that is you can sign up for late days which gets you off early the next day, and you still get paid for that time after 5:30pm.
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Lol I’m concerned with you buying into this ovetime pay as a benefit but humor me at what rate are they paying you after 530
 
Justice4all said:
Selling back your vacation days or working it? How much should it be per day?
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figure out how much you get paid to work every other day of the year and that equals the fair rate
 
GassYous said:
Heh. If I'm there past 530 it is a bad day
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I’d say this is one of the main differences between most private practices and academics. As alluded to above, I imagine in academics you’re almost expected to stay until 5 which most PP will sell you that most normal days you can be out by 3 or even earlier if not on call. I agree with you. If I’m not home in time for MNF kickoff (PST) then it’s been a rough day.
 
SnapperRocks said:
Lol I’m concerned with you buying into this ovetime pay as a benefit but humor me at what rate are they paying you after 530
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I think this is a very important/underappreciated point. My residency hospital called this "incentive pay", which is total bullsh**. Call it what it is: overtime. Yes, some people are pulling 400k+, but almost half that is made in the evenings, overnight, and on weekends and holidays. No thanks.
 
Nivens said:
I think this is a very important/underappreciated point. My residency hospital called this "incentive pay", which is total bullsh**. Call it what it is: overtime. Yes, some people are pulling 400k+, but almost half that is made in the evenings, overnight, and on weekends and holidays. No thanks.
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Also called incentive pay here. Who cares what they call it? Better than NOT getting paid for that time.
 
abolt18 said:
Also called incentive pay here. Who cares what they call it? Better than NOT getting paid for that time.
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You will care trust me. It always sucks working passed 530. It hurts less if it’s eat what you kill and private insurance where you’ll pulling >400 an hour but even then most people would usually prefer being home.
 
SnapperRocks said:
You will care trust me. It always sucks working passed 530. It hurts less if it’s eat what you kill and private insurance where you’ll pulling >400 an hour but even then most people would usually prefer being home.
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there are "mommy track" jobs for people that just want to be there from 7-3 on weekdays. The problem is you won't get paid anything to do it. The money is earned working late, nights, and weekends.
 
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