Dr. Zombie

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What are some REALLY good ACGME IM programs that can be achieved through D.O. schools?

I know cliquesh mentioned that true top-tier IM programs are rather...nearly untouchable....so with that being said, what would be considered realistic "top-tier" IM programs relative to osteopathic med students that are achievable for hard-working students with a nice 225 USMLE score let's say.

Also, in these relative top-tier ACGME programs, is research a necessity?
 
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cliquesh

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A DO matched at Upenn last year. Mayo, Cleveland clinic, and many state univ have taken DOs in the past. There is a thread like this in the osteopathic med student forum.

The average board scores are in the 240s at top IM programs.
 
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happypremed1

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A DO matched at Upenn last year. Mayo, Cleveland clinic, and many state univ have taken DOs in the past. There is a thread like this in the osteopathic med student forum.

The average board scores are in the 240s at top IM programs.
average of 240s? That's kinda high. These people could have matched anywhere into any specialties coming from MD schools.
 

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Top ACGME IM programs have high board scores.
 

cliquesh

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average of 240s? That's kinda high. These people could have matched anywhere into any specialties coming from MD schools.
Top programs for any speciality have ridiculous stats. Not everyone wants to be a plastic surgeon or a dermatologist. Moreover, internal medicine is the gateway to cardiology, GI, and heme/onc, which all pay well.
 

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average of 240s? That's kinda high. These people could have matched anywhere into any specialties coming from MD schools.
If you want to be a cardiologist, pulmonologist, etc you have to complete a good IM program (or get real lucky after a less than stellar program) first. Rads, surgery, optho, and derm aren't everyone's cup of tea. Some of us are into the more medicine-y side of medicine.
 

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Keep in mind some of the posted "top tier" matches are at alternative facilities (mayo-az, Hopkins-bay view etc.)

For the most part top tier IM is as difficult as a good acgme ortho/ent etc spot.
 

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I'd be interested in knowing the answer to the OP's question as well. Or at least being pointed to the thread in the Osteopathic forum because I've never seen it.

I'm interested in Nephro, HemeOnc, and Cardiology at the moment; and I'm nervous about what type of program I should (realistically) be aiming at and what besides boards and good clinical grades I need to get done before the 2015 match.
 
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To the OP: Take my words with a grain of salt because I am just an incoming medical student, but I have been looking into your concerns quite a bit.

I do not think it is realistic to aim for a top-tier IM residency program as a USDO. A successful applicant would have to be an outlier in several aspects - Step 1, research/publications, 3rd year grades, connections, etc. - to achieve this. It is already difficult enough for any medical student to just score >240 on Step 1, let alone have numerous publications, honors in 3rd year and a reasonable connection with the residents and PD at the desired program on top of that killer Step 1 score. Furthermore, I think it is fair to assume some level of DO discrimination (to what extent, I don't know) at certain top-tier IM residency programs. Of course, past USDOs have accomplished this feat and matched at top-tiers but, as far as I know, they are very few and far between.

A 'top-tier' IM residency relative to USDOs would be mid-tier. Although these are not so highly revered on SDN, I think it would still be quite competitive for USDOs (but definitely a very realistic goal) to land a residency position at mid-tiers. By reading their mission statements and the PD's welcoming message, research is still emphasized so I would assume that they will look favorably on any research experience you may have. Whether research experience is mandatory is controversial...I would say you should have research experience though you don't need to stress too much about trying to pump out pubs.
 

cliquesh

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http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/do-friendly-internal-medicine-university-programs.1008132/ is the thread I was referring to. As a previous poster mentioned, keep an eye out for affiliated programs. Univ of Chicago- north shore is not university of Chicago. John Hopkins bayview is not John Hopkins, etc.

I don't know if you looked at the nrmp fellowship charting outcomes data, SLC, but in 2011:

Cardiology: 28 DOs matched and 15 didn't match
Hem/onc: 26 DOs matched and 15 didn't
Nephro: 15 DOs matched and 8 didn't
GI: 16 DOs matched and 32 didn't
Pulm: 27 DOs matched and 17 didn't

I think the odds are even better if you attend a university program for residency. Go look at Temple's internal medicine's fellowship match lists. The DOs in the program do no worse than anyone else in the program.
 
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Dr. Zombie

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To the OP: Take my words with a grain of salt because I am just an incoming medical student, but I have been looking into your concerns quite a bit.

I do not think it is realistic to aim for a top-tier IM residency program as a USDO. A successful applicant would have to be an outlier in several aspects - Step 1, research/publications, 3rd year grades, connections, etc. - to achieve this. It is already difficult enough for any medical student to just score >240 on Step 1, let alone have numerous publications, honors in 3rd year and a reasonable connection with the residents and PD at the desired program on top of that killer Step 1 score. Furthermore, I think it is fair to assume some level of DO discrimination (to what extent, I don't know) at certain top-tier IM residency programs. Of course, past USDOs have accomplished this feat and matched at top-tiers but, as far as I know, they are very few and far between.

A 'top-tier' IM residency relative to USDOs would be mid-tier. Although these are not so highly revered on SDN, I think it would still be quite competitive for USDOs (but definitely a very realistic goal) to land a residency position at mid-tiers. By reading their mission statements and the PD's welcoming message, research is still emphasized so I would assume that they will look favorably on any research experience you may have. Whether research experience is mandatory is controversial...I would say you should have research experience though you don't need to stress too much about trying to pump out pubs.

Mid-tiers ok cool. So if I do ACGME mid-tier, I should be OK for good fellowships right? Cardio and GI do not interest me. I'm more into Endocrinology or maybe Rheu. if I end up doing enough research on it to peak my interest.

To be honest, I dread having to be in an actual lab. Can I do clinical research? If so, how do I go about it? I would not mind doing it during summer. I'm sure I can squeeze enough time for 1-2 weeks vacation still.
 
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First, LOLZ at the "can a DO with a 225 get into a top IM program"

Second, no fellowship is ever guaranteed. Yeah, top IM programs have good track-records of getting their residents into cards, but even then, nothing is written in stone. Aim to match at the best university program you can, work hard, get research (if you can), and cross your fingers. Besides, in 6+ years from now, who knows if cards will even still be competitive

Not to be that person, but does anyone have proof that the person matched at HUP and not Pennsy. I'm just curious
 

cliquesh

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First, LOLZ at the "can a DO with a 225 get into a top IM program"

Second, no fellowship is ever guaranteed. Yeah, top IM programs have good track-records of getting their residents into cards, but even then, nothing is written in stone. Aim to match at the best university program you can, work hard, get research (if you can), and cross your fingers. Besides, in 6+ years from now, who knows if cards will even still be competitive

Not to be that person, but does anyone have proof that the person matched at HUP and not Pennsy. I'm just curious
There's no proof, I guess. HUPs resident page is under construction. The match is listed as HUP on PCOM's 2013 match list; not Pennsylvania hospital. CHOP has taken 2 DOs in the last few years for peds, which can be verified on the residency's web page.
 
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Mid-tiers ok cool. So if I do ACGME mid-tier, I should be OK for good fellowships right? Cardio and GI do not interest me. I'm more into Endocrinology or maybe Rheu. if I end up doing enough research on it to peak my interest.

To be honest, I dread having to be in an actual lab. Can I do clinical research? If so, how do I go about it? I would not mind doing it during summer. I'm sure I can squeeze enough time for 1-2 weeks vacation still.
I'm not sure what counts as a 'good' fellowship but if you want to be a clinician (I assume from your post) then the prestige of the fellowship shouldn't really matter (I think). Getting an endocrinology or rheumatology fellowship seem realistic from mid-tier IM residencies as a USDO but the competition definitely continues in residency.

No comment on clinical research as I have only done basic science research...which I hate as well.
 

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http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/do-friendly-internal-medicine-university-programs.1008132/ is the thread I was referring to. As a previous poster mentioned, keep an eye out for affiliated programs. Univ of Chicago- north shore is not university of Chicago. John Hopkins bayview is not John Hopkins, etc.

I don't know if you looked at the nrmp fellowship charting outcomes data, SLC, but in 2011:

Cardiology: 28 DOs matched and 15 didn't match
Hem/onc: 26 DOs matched and 15 didn't
Nephro: 15 DOs matched and 8 didn't
GI: 16 DOs matched and 32 didn't
Pulm: 27 DOs matched and 17 didn't

I think the odds are even better if you attend a university program for residency. Go look at Temple's internal medicine's fellowship match lists. The DOs in the program do no worse than anyone else in the program.
Excellent, and my bad about claiming not to have seen the thread, I even posted in there a few times, embarrasing...:boom:
 

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OP most of the top IM programs will be off limits unless you have amazing stats (250+ step 1, all honors on rotations) and great research. Even then it will be really tough to get interviews.

Assuming you have a competitive application, your best best would be to try for good AGME programs located in less desirable locations with a track record of taking DOs.

Some examples:
Iowa (http://www.uihealthcare.org/GME/InsidePages.aspx?id=226564&taxid=225278)
Ohio State (http://internalmedicine.osu.edu/education/welcome/our-residents/where-from/)
Minnesota (http://www.dom.umn.edu/education/internal-medicine-residency-program/internal-medicine-residents/index.htm)
Rochester (http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/education/graduate-medical-education/prospective-residents/internal-medicine/our-residents/current-residents/class-2015.cfm)
 

ChineseKid

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What about Canadian/international DOs in regards to programs?

Sent from my SGH-T889V using Tapatalk
 

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http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/do-friendly-internal-medicine-university-programs.1008132/ is the thread I was referring to. As a previous poster mentioned, keep an eye out for affiliated programs. Univ of Chicago- north shore is not university of Chicago. John Hopkins bayview is not John Hopkins, etc.

I don't know if you looked at the nrmp fellowship charting outcomes data, SLC, but in 2011:

Cardiology: 28 DOs matched and 15 didn't match
Hem/onc: 26 DOs matched and 15 didn't
Nephro: 15 DOs matched and 8 didn't
GI: 16 DOs matched and 32 didn't
Pulm: 27 DOs matched and 17 didn't

I think the odds are even better if you attend a university program for residency. Go look at Temple's internal medicine's fellowship match lists. The DOs in the program do no worse than anyone else in the program.
What do you think makes the numbers so dismal for DO's applying to GI? I mean, why is it so bad compared to Cards? Is there more lingering bias in that field then others? Or is it just random variance in a relatively small sample size?

Also, does anyone know if a DO who does and ACGME IM residency is eligible for AOA subspecialty fellowships?
 

notbobtrustme

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What do you think makes the numbers so dismal for DO's applying to GI? I mean, why is it so bad compared to Cards? Is there more lingering bias in that field then others? Or is it just random variance in a relatively small sample size?

Also, does anyone know if a DO who does and ACGME IM residency is eligible for AOA subspecialty fellowships?
I think GI is just crazy competitive, even for MDs coming from good residency programs.
 

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I think GI is just crazy competitive, even for MDs coming from good residency programs.
The anesthesiologist I shadow believes, out of all the internal medicine fellowships currently, that GI is the most competitive.
 

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What do you think makes the numbers so dismal for DO's applying to GI? I mean, why is it so bad compared to Cards? Is there more lingering bias in that field then others? Or is it just random variance in a relatively small sample size?

Also, does anyone know if a DO who does and ACGME IM residency is eligible for AOA subspecialty fellowships?
"The bowel run of the rich. There's a lotta money in sh_t. I'm searching for a GI fellowship myself" said the Fat Man in 1978.

For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, read The House of God.
 
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Dr. Zombie

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OP most of the top IM programs will be off limits unless you have amazing stats (250+ step 1, all honors on rotations) and great research. Even then it will be really tough to get interviews.

Assuming you have a competitive application, your best best would be to try for good AGME programs located in less desirable locations with a track record of taking DOs.

Some examples:
Iowa (http://www.uihealthcare.org/GME/InsidePages.aspx?id=226564&taxid=225278)
Ohio State (http://internalmedicine.osu.edu/education/welcome/our-residents/where-from/)
Minnesota (http://www.dom.umn.edu/education/internal-medicine-residency-program/internal-medicine-residents/index.htm)
Rochester (http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/education/graduate-medical-education/prospective-residents/internal-medicine/our-residents/current-residents/class-2015.cfm)
Do you think doing clinical research will suffice? I'm still wondering how do I go about doing non-bench research.
 
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cliquesh

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GI is the most competitive fellowship for MDs too. In 2011, there were 1.7 applicants per GI spot, compared to 1.5 for cards and hem/onc. 251 USMDs matched and 69 went unmatched, which is the lowest match rate for any IM fellowship at 78%. Hem/onc had a similar match rate for US-MDs in 2011 at 83% (234 matched and 47unmatched), but DOs still faired much better in the hem/onc match, so I think there might also be some inherent DO hatin in the GI community.

In 2013, 20 DOs matched GI, 33 cardiology, and 29 hem/onc. The number of unmatched isn't released yet.

Competitive specialites are all about money and/or lifestyle.
 
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cliquesh

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Do you think doing clinical research will suffice? I'm still wondering how do I go about doing non-bench research.
Do a summer research fellowship like http://www.mskcc.org/education/students/summer-fellowship between MS1 and Ms2 and try to publish a case report or 2 during 3rd year, or try to get involved with a project. If youre at a rotation site for 2 or 3 months just go find out who is doing research and ask if you can help. They'll probably say yes.
 

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From http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/do-friendly-internal-medicine-university-programs.1008132/

Using this thread as a reference, I've subjectively ranked IM programs that have accepted DOs in the past. This rank is based solely on academic reputation and admit it will be subject to much debate. Please feel free to rearrange as you see it while making sure to include your reason.


Tier 1a:
UPenn, UWash, Yale, UTSW, Mayo

Tier 1b:
Brown, UVa, Wake Forest, Dartmouth, OHSU, Wisconsin, Colorado, Emory, Baylor

--
Tier 2a:
Iowa, Ohio State, Rochester, Indiana, Minnesota, Georgetown, Temple, RWJ, Utah, VCU, GWU, Tulane

Tier 2b:
UVM, Rush, UIC, Loyola, Tulane, CCF, UMDNJ-Newark, UCDavis, Tulane, MCW, Penn State, MCG, UT-Houston, Cincinnati, Florida, USC

--
Tier 3a:
UConn, Louisville, UMiami, UMass, Hofstra North Shore-LIJ, Creighton, Oklahoma, MUSC, LSU, FSU, Texas A&M, Arizona,

Tier 3b:
Stony Brook, Upstate, New Mexico, SIU, , Kansas, Kentucky, Nebraska, St. Louis, Wayne State, Texas Tech, Tennessee, UCF, USF, Mississippi, Missouri, Loma Linda

--
Tier 4:
Downstate, Drexel, Albany, Buffalo, Howard, St. Louis,
OR if you like...

Not a bad list. But, as a DO who just matched into one of these programs and interviewed at a lot of them, I'll throw in my two cents.

Tier 1a:
UPenn, UWash, Yale, UTSW,

Tier 1b:
Mayo, Brown, UVa, Wake Forest, Dartmouth, OHSU, Wisconsin, Colorado, Emory, Baylor

--
Tier 2a:
Iowa, Ohio State, Rochester, Indiana, Minnesota, Georgetown, Temple, RWJ, Utah, VCU, Tulane, UF-Gainesville

Tier 2b
UVM, Rush, UIC, Loyola, UMDNJ-Newark, UCDavis, MCW, Penn State, UT-Houston, UT-San Antonio, USC

--
Tier 3a:
UMiami, UMass, MUSC, New Mexico, Cincinnati, Kentucky, GWU, Louisville, CCF, Tennessee, USF, Nebraska, Creighton, Oklahoma, Texas A&M, Stony Brook, Upstate, Arizona, LSU, Hofstra North Shore-LIJ

Tier 3b:
Kansas, MCG, UConn, St. Louis, Wayne State, Texas Tech, Mississippi, Missouri, Loma Linda,

--
Tier 4a:
Downstate, Drexel, Albany, Buffalo, Howard, St. Louis, ECU, UTMB

Tier 4b:
SIU, EVMS

In the end, you'll be fine if you match at any of these programs (and many other university programs) if that's where you want to be.

FSU is a brand new IM program and didn't take DOs when I last looked; maybe their policy has changed, but it's almost entirely FMGs anyways. UCF hasn't even started their IM residency yet.

Other university programs that take DOs, but don't fit into any tier: South Dakota, South Alabama, Western Michigan, VT-Carilion, Mercer, ETSU
 

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Ill chime in on this. It is certainly possible to match a toppish IM residency(certain programs just do not interview DO) as a DO. You need to accomplish a few things though

1)honor as many classes as possible
2)honor your clinical rotation(especially IM, this is almost mandatory even for MD)
3)step 1>240, better >250(true for MD's as well)
4)get research from known individuals. If you are near a top program do research there, if not use your m1 summer to do research somewhere with a name(and preferably where you would like to go) even if you have to take out more loans
5)get a high step 2(almost a certainty if you accomplished the above)

Aim for programs that have taken DO's in the past but also apply to others if you think you are an outlier(ex. step 1 260+) In CA for example UCLA, Cedars, Scripps, Davis, USC(in the past), Irvine are all possible and have decent to excellent fellowship match rates. UCSF and stanford are basically untouchable by DO but if you know someone and your uber-qualified then you might be the first.
 

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Am I wrong in believing that universities in the midwest tend to be more friendly than the coast for DO's?
 
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Am I wrong in believing that universities in the midwest tend to be more friendly than the coast for DO's?
I believe so. That's what I have heard.

One of the reasons why I decided to go to DO school in the Midwest. More opportunities later down the road if I decide to stay local.
 

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Am I wrong in believing that universities in the midwest tend to be more friendly than the coast for DO's?
That's true but it might just be a function of the midwest's overall decreased competitiveness compared with the coasts.
 
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Some of the ones that I can think of (by looking at the house staff roster) that are essentially "off limits" to DO grads (for now ;)) are NYP (Weill Cornell/Columbia), NYU-Langone (they specifically state they don't take DO applicants), MGH (there is a KCUMB grad in cardiology there however, Dr. Parks, D.O.), B&Y, UCSD, The UofChicago, Northwestern Feinberg, UCLA, Stanford, UCSF, Duke, Tulane and University of Washington.

These are IM programs that are competitive for everybody, MD and DO alike. So when you have the cream of the crop applying to your program, you don't even need to look at the independent applicant pile (DO's, IMG's, FMG's).
 

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Mid-tiers ok cool. So if I do ACGME mid-tier, I should be OK for good fellowships right? Cardio and GI do not interest me. I'm more into Endocrinology or maybe Rheu. if I end up doing enough research on it to peak my interest.

To be honest, I dread having to be in an actual lab. Can I do clinical research? If so, how do I go about it? I would not mind doing it during summer. I'm sure I can squeeze enough time for 1-2 weeks vacation still.
Endocrinology is not competitive. It's hard to find people to fill spots. Coming out of an academic center that is heavy on research (usually in the mid-tier), you should be fine for it.

Also, I know a couple DOs at a university affiliate (the university program is top 20), and they seem to be doing well fellowship wise (Cards, Heme-Onc, etc.). Even not being at a primary site, if you network well and get involved in research (there's a lot going on), then you can get the type of connections and research you need to land a fellowship. Remember, fellowships are the end of the road, so even if you get the bottom fellowship program, which mind you will still be competitive, it doesn't matter because in the end you can still be board certified in GI, Cards, etc.
 
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