ADCOM members, what's the single biggest killer of an otherwise great application?

[GoPenguinsGo]

Zero clinical experience/shadowing? Low GPA (we will define that as 0.3 GPA points below a school's average)? Low MCAT? No non-clinical volunteering?

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[Moko]

what's the single biggest killer of an otherwise great application?​

Zero clinical experience/shadowing? Low GPA (we will define that as 0.3 GPA points below a school's average)? Low MCAT? No non-clinical volunteering?

Being arrogant, disrespectful, and/or unteachable. These are all instant application killers. Same goes for those with major personality disorders. Humility and manners cannot be taught, and are essential to learning and practicing good medicine. Stellar applicants on paper are routinely rejected for these offenses. One egregious example was when a superstar applicant was oddly flexing by pretending to know more about a subject than the leading expert in the field. nb: straight to the rejection pile they went. That applicant just needed to smile and nod and they would have otherwise been accepted.

Very low clinical, volunteering, research, and/or shadowing hours, and relatively lower GPAs and MCATs - any of these in isolation have been overcome by the sheer strength of the rest of the application. Of course, it's best to not have any major deficiencies when applying.

 

[Goro]

Zero clinical experience/shadowing? Low GPA (we will define that as 0.3 GPA points below a school's average)? Low MCAT? No non-clinical volunteering?

Poor essays
Red flag of a LOR
Deficient shadowing, patient contact experience and/or nonclinical volunteering. (Note that this is NOT the same as zero hrs...10 hrs volunteering would be lethal
Failing to follow simple instructions...like submitting more LORs than the school states they want
Or Sending updates when the school says not to send them
Applying to a school you have no business applying to.

 

[Goro]

It sounds like this is interview phase stuff, can these attitudes be discerned on paper too (i.e. essays, ps etc)? If so, how can we avoid it? I'm always told I come off meek and mild in my writing and need to embellish my achievements, be proud and confident and basically say in my application 'your school needs me I am a great candidate' but it sounds like that comes off as arrogant, what's a good balance?

Failing to give good answers to "Why us?" Would be an example.

So, simply answering the question would be a baseline

 

[Catalystik]

ADCOM members, what's the single biggest killer of an otherwise great application?​

Zero clinical experience/shadowing? Low GPA (we will define that as 0.3 GPA points below a school's average)? Low MCAT? No non-clinical volunteering?

An "otherwise great" application would not include any of the items on your list.

I'll add to some of the examples given: An egregious Institutional Action or legal issue, especially in multiples, examples being cheating, recurrent alcohol or drug offences, DUI, assault.

 

[Med Ed]

Zero clinical experience/shadowing? Low GPA (we will define that as 0.3 GPA points below a school's average)? Low MCAT? No non-clinical volunteering?

Don't make me choose.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

An "otherwise great" application would not include any of the items on your list.

I'll add to some of the examples given: An egregious Institutional Action or legal issue, especially in multiples, examples being cheating, recurrent alcohol or drug offences, DUI, assault.

Someone told me that credit card fraud/theft is a nonstarter, no matter the application.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Don't make me choose.

You gotta! Its no fun if you dont. Kinda like playing “Would you rather” but answering “Neither” to the question of the game

 

[Goro]

Someone told me that credit card fraud/theft is a nonstarter, no matter the application.

That would be lethal at my school. Crimes against persons, are viewed far more harshly than victimless crimes, or crimes against property (to a degree).

Multiple minor IAs are generally lethal, as they telegraph the applicant failed to learn lessons, or just doesn't care (kinda like my 18 year old!)

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

do schools conduct credit and background check before giving As?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Zero clinical experience/shadowing? Low GPA (we will define that as 0.3 GPA points below a school's average)? Low MCAT? No non-clinical volunteering?

Can age be one now days with more and more going for gap years?

 

[LizzyM]

The lethal application killers (felony conviction for manslaughter) are rare occurances. When you say, "biggest" do you mean "most common"? It may be common to toss aside applications for low GPA (<3.0) or MCAT (< 500) but the adcom would never see those or know how many met that fate because that's a back office job.

 

[Catalystik]

Can age be one now days with more and more going for gap years?

No.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

The lethal application killers (felony conviction for manslaughter) are rare occurances. When you say, "biggest" do you mean "most common"? It may be common to toss aside applications for low GPA (<3.0) or MCAT (< 500) but the adcom would never see those or know how many met that fate because that's a back office job.

By “biggest” i mean “what one singular flaw on an application turns an acceptance automatically into a rejection” assuming legal issues are not in play. I feel legal crimes (murder, rape, theft) are obvious non-starters.

Edit: There can be multiple answers to this, not just one thing that can damn an app.

 

[Maimonides1]

Arrogance
Immaturity
Low emotional intelligence

 

[southernhope1]

The lethal application killers (felony conviction for manslaughter) are rare occurances.

Yeah, a murder conviction would be pretty hard to write your way around....

 

[ednamed]

Poor essays
Red flag of a LOR
Deficient shadowing, patient contact experience and/or nonclinical volunteering. (Note that this is NOT the same as zero hrs...10 hrs volunteering would be lethal
Failing to follow simple instructions...like submitting more LORs than the school states they want
Or Sending updates when the school says not to send them
Applying to a school you have no business applying to.

Can you define what a red flag LOR means? Also what exactly does deficient shadowing, patient contact, and nonclinical volunteering mean? i.e. how many minimum hours would be "safe" in terms of not being an app killer?

 

[Med Ed]

You gotta! Its no fun if you dont. Kinda like playing “Would you rather” but answering “Neither” to the question of the game

Personal statement exposes severe mental health troubles. By that I don't mean that the writer talks about having mental health issues, I mean the statement itself is suggestive of active psychosis.

Letter writer says something damning about the applicant. Bear in mind that American rec letters tend to be uniformly positive. If a writer wants to kill you they'll almost always do it with faint praise. To come out and say something negative is rare but devastating.

Zero clinical exposure. Won't make it past initial screen.

Zero volunteering. Won't make it past initial screen.

 

[Goro]

Can you define what a red flag LOR means? Also what exactly does deficient shadowing, patient contact, and nonclinical volunteering mean? i.e. how many minimum hours would be "safe" in terms of not being an app killer?

Med Ed beat me to it:

Letter writer says something damning about the applicant. Bear in mind that American rec letters tend to be positive. If a writer wants to kill you they'll almost always do it with faint praise. To come out and say something negative is rare but devastating.

The bolded is especially true.

One should have at least 50 hrs shadowing, and > 150 hrs each in clinical exposure and nonclinical volunteering.

 

[KnightDoc]

do schools conduct credit and background check before giving As?

Nope. They do it before matriculation due to cost and irrelevance if you are not going to attend, kind of like checking transcripts for prereqs! (Not sure about credit but definitely background, where things like a bankruptcy filing would probably be discovered.) I'm not sure anything on a credit report would be disqualifying though, would it adcoms???? Bad credit = no MD???

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Nope. They do it before matriculation due to cost and irrelevance if you are not going to attend, kind of like checking transcripts for prereqs! (Not sure about credit but definitely background, where things like a bankruptcy filing would probably be discovered.) I'm not sure anything on a credit report would be disqualifying though, would it adcoms???? Bad credit = no MD???

Applicants are ranked based on credit score, not GPA/MCAT from now on.

 

[LunaOri]

do schools conduct credit and background check before giving As?

Not until after acceptance, but admission is contingent on passing the background check.

 

[KnightDoc]

​

ADCOM members, what's the single biggest killer of an otherwise great application?​

Actually the biggest killer is simply the sheer number of applications at any individual school. With roughly 1000 interview slots per school, an average of 5000 applications submitted per school must be reduced by at least 80%. Even if a schools can cut half easily, that still leaves 2500 applications reduced to 1000. Good to great applications get cut easily in this mix. It may not be that your application was bad, just someone else was "better"

Great, but that doesn't answer the question. This explains WHY otherwise decent applications don't result in As, but doesn't answer just what kills an otherwise great application. Saying that other applications are more great isn't an answer, when the question is really what do I need to fix to make my application more great!

 

[r2med]

Like there is not one single thing on the application that can guarantee acceptance, perhaps there is no one single thing on "an otherwise great" application that can kill it.

 

[Deleted member 1077394]

No.

I'll be 28 during my application season and am very glad to hear age is not such a concern. That was certainly something in the back of my mind.

Cute cat, by the way!

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

I'll be 28 during my application season and am very glad to hear age is not such a concern. That was certainly something in the back of my mind.

Cute cat, by the way!

At some schools being in your mid/late 20's may be beneficial. Some places like students that have some life experience, more clinical exposure, maturity, etc. MSAR has a section that shows number of matriculants in different age brackets and it varies between schools. You can also see % of students with a graduate degree which is another indicator of friendliness toward older students.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I'll be 28 during my application season and am very glad to hear age is not such a concern. That was certainly something in the back of my mind.

Cute cat, by the way!

I was asking about younger age since some adcoms may think 21-22 year older ones are immature and prefer mid 20s.

 

[Catalystik]

I was asking about younger age since some adcoms may think 21-22 year older ones are immature and prefer mid 20s.

A demonstration of maturity is expected for all ages.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

A demonstration of maturity is expected for all ages.

Well its a good thing adcoms dont get to see my behavior on Xbox Live circa 2009 with Modern Warfare 2

 

[Orims]

I'll be 28 during my application season and am very glad to hear age is not such a concern. That was certainly something in the back of my mind.

Cute cat, by the way!

I'm 28 and it has not been a problem so far! If anything, I think it has been a positive!

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

A demonstration of maturity is expected for all ages.

No doubt lol hopefully no bias against 20-22 olds given that gap years are getting popular.

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

No doubt lol hopefully no bias against 20-22 olds given that gap years are getting popular.

Youre very insecure about age

 

[gyngyn]

Yeah, a murder conviction would be pretty hard to write your way around....

And yet, we had someone apply as "Under-represented in Medicine" because of a manslaughter conviction.

 

[wysdoc]

do schools conduct credit and background check before giving As?

No, but they do it before matriculation

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

And yet, we had someone apply as Under-represented in Medicine with a manslaughter conviction.

In a way... they’re correct

 

[wysdoc]

And yet, we had someone apply as Under-represented in Medicine with a manslaughter conviction.

I wish felons were more under-represented in medicine

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Youre very insecure about age

I am not, one adcom mentioned that they look at the age first. Anyway, I don't want to divert the thread.

 

[borrawin95]

And yet, we had someone apply as "Under-represented in Medicine" because of a manslaughter conviction.

Technically they aren’t wrong, lol.

 

[Goro]

And yet, we had someone apply as "Under-represented in Medicine" because of a manslaughter conviction.

*sigh* Your school.........

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Like there is not one single thing on the application that can guarantee acceptance, perhaps there is no one single thing on "an otherwise great" application that can kill it.

Try a felony conviction for first degree murder. Im sure that can kill it real quick

 

[LizzyM]

Like there is not one single thing on the application that can guarantee acceptance, perhaps there is no one single thing on "an otherwise great" application that can kill it.

Any sort of felony conviction would be a deal breaker as best as I can tell. In particular, one that would make it difficult to be licensed as a physician such as Medicaid fraud (let's say you had worked in a billing office), drug dealing, felony-level abuse of childrens or the elderly. That's one single thing (or three single things) any one of which could kill an otherwise good application.

 

[r2med]

Try a felony conviction for first degree murder. Im sure that can kill it real quick

Any sort of felony conviction would be a deal breaker as best as I can tell. In particular, one that would make it difficult to be licensed as a physician such as Medicaid fraud (let's say you had worked in a billing office), drug dealing, felony-level abuse of childrens or the elderly. That's one single thing (or three single things) any one of which could kill an otherwise good application.

If these are written rules, then no one with these will apply, so there won't be an application, right?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

If these are written rules, then no one with these will apply, so there won't be an application, right?

Provided everyone reads and follows the rules

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

If these are written rules, then no one with these will apply, so there won't be an application, right?

See @gyngyn 's coment above.

 

[r2med]

See @gyngyn 's coment above.

I stand corrected.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Very low clinical, volunteering, research, and/or shadowing hours, and relatively lower GPAs and MCATs - any of these in isolation have been overcome by the sheer strength of the rest of the application. Of course, it's best to not have any major deficiencies when applying.

I get the rest, but is research that important? Would just a semester of research be that horrible?

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

I get the rest, but is research that important? Would just a semester of research be that horrible?

No, people get accepted to medical school without any research experience all the time.

 

[Moko]

I get the rest, but is research that important? Would just a semester of research be that horrible?

My school is referred to by some as a research wh*re. Having meaningful research experience (+/- productivity) is important for us, and I suspect our peer schools that collectively make up the brothel. Despite this, superstar candidates without research experience still get into my school, though they are carried by the strength of the rest of their application. Just my thoughts

 

[KnightDoc]

Is there a list or way to make a list of such Research heavy/loving schools? I tried mission statements but 9/10 schools have research written somewhere

No need. Almost without exception it's the very top schools (think T10-20 as ranked by USNWR -- it is a RESEARCH ranking for a reason!! ).

People like to disparage the ranking as a proxy for overall quality of school or education, but, it DOES measure something, and this is it!!

 

[KnightDoc]

See that's what I thought but in my short but intense time on sdn I've seen many people say USNWR is meaningless...also all those schools are going to be wildly unattainable for me 🙃

Please go back and read my edit to my previous post. My experience is that people from lower ranked schools pooh-pooh the rankings, but people connected to the higher ranked schools tend to be quite proud of them.

I really don't think they are as meaningless as some say, but I also honestly don't think they are that important if you aren't really interested in the enhanced research opportunities, aren't focused on a job in academia, or aren't looking to position yourself for a highly competitive specialty. Ranking and prestige are great, but really aren't indicative of quality of education, and aren't absolutely necessary to get wherever it is you are going, since the cream ALWAYS rises to the top, even at unranked schools. It just makes it easier to have really great opportunities, especially if you are not at the top of the class. Just like UG!!!

The good news is that having great research experience is never going to be a problem anywhere, but is less and less essential to a successful application as you move down the ranking chart.