Adelphi Offer, Worth the Debt?

[Psychologist_dreamer]

What would you have to do to become an English teacher at this point? I think it is an option worth considering. I know my friends who are teachers make about the same amount of money that I do at this point in our careers (I’m an independent contractor about 10 yrs out, teacher friends have been teaching 15 or so years). The difference is that they get raises, paid sick time, vacation, summers off, retirement benefits, etc. Granted, I could make more money and have some benefits if I worked in an AMC, VA, or something, but this is the unglamorous world of the private practitioner, which is where many clinicians end up. I’m not saying you should go into something that isn’t a passion, but if you, like many people, have multiple passions, it is worth considering. Good luck.

I did some research and in NYS you pretty much need the BA in the field you intend to teach, and then a master's in education. I took a lot of english credits in undergrad, and I'm wondering if I would be able to build on that and just do the masters in ed, or take some courses at another college. I think for that I would definitely need to speak to some people in the field and at the programs I would want to get my masters in ed.
I am still in touch with some teachers from my high school, and my uncle is a teacher. My area loves to hire alumnis too which is nice. A good portion of my hs eachers attended the high school.

And it is a passion ! Everyone thought I was going to be an English teacher or a writer, including myself. But I went into psychology because I really wanted to help people and thought I would be good at therapy because I could relate to patients and thought I would be easily able to form therapeutic alliance. I also thought it would be a more lucrative and responsible career. I had this fantasy of a nice apartment in the city, and a cool private practice. Then once I started college I got excited about research too.

Now that I'm older I'm moving away from the city life dream.

Had I known then what I know now, I would never have entered this field to be honest. The academic circle jerk and elitism is absolutely ridiculous and makes it very unattainable for many people. I would have otherwise gone into social work, creative writing and/or English teacher.

But anyways. If I got the clinical phd, I definitely wouldn't only do private practice.
I think I would like to be one of those who teaches, has a lab, and does private practice. I would be ok with an assistant teaching position and smaller scale research. I also have an interest in clinical qualitative research (which I have a mentor for at Adelphi)
I don't need TT, it might be nice but I wouldn't want the skew to be so that I can't have time for private practice.

Or on the flipside if I do decide I want out of academia, which I very well might, if possible I wouldn't mind doing private practice and perhaps VA or another clinical hospital type position as well ? I know less about the balance-ability of those 2 options as I've seen more teacher/private practice than the other way around based on my exposure to the field thus far.

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[cara susanna]

Oh, internship in New York programs seems to always be in NY? I have never heard of anyone having to leave the city or long island for internship here.. I didn't even know that was a thing in other places ??? So you mean in other programs you have to often move to another state for internship ? That seems really weird. So how many times do they expect you to move for the field then ?

1x for the program
2x for internship
3x for post doc
4x for a job

I'm sorry that's ridiculous my partner would never be on board for that and frankly neither would I.

And again, here it doesn't seem like the norm is for people who aren't strictly academics to do post doc? That's what it seems to me from the phd students I've interacted with here in NYC and LI. Seems the post docs are the academics, or people from other countries/states, while the clinicians go for licensing and assistant positions afterwards.

That's all a lot and seems to be quite different than the experience here in NY that's also important to factor into this decision too huh. I guess it's because in other areas there's just not enough going on in the area the programs are to do it all there ?

I mean my issue with other states/less desirable states is would I meet the licensing hour requirements to come back and license in NY if I wanted to, or in some of these other states I would want to live in? (Massachusetts, Pacific north west, North East, etc). This stuff is a whole other ballpark to consider too

Yup, pretty much everyone has to move in this field at least once or twice. It sucks. If you want to stay in a certain geographical region, I would recommend against pursuing a psychology PhD or PsyD. And I'm not saying this because of anything personal, it's what I would tell anyone. I've moved five times in the last ten years (grad school, internship, post doc, first job, second job) and it's ridiculous. You have to be willing to uproot everything. I went to grad school in a location that you'd probably scoff at. I didn't love it, but I survived and was able to move to large cities for internship and post doc. If that's not a sacrifice you're willing to make, no judgment. Not wanting to do that isn't a failure on your part, I just want you to have your eyes open and be aware that you probably won't be able to stay in the NY area for all of your training. I have a psychologist friend from NYC who moved out of NY for grad school and to another state across the country for internship. She's back on the east coast but couldn't get a post doc or job in NYC. And her training is solid.

Furthermore, IMO this salary is not enough to live on in a big city. I was living in an awesome metropolitan area for post doc and I eventually moved back to my home state (yes, in flyover country!) because I was barely treading water financially, after years of moves and low pay. And I work at the VA, which pays fairly well for a psychologist job.

And, yes, even clinicians tend to do post docs now. It's getting more and more expected, and if you're competing for a job with someone who did a post doc over someone who didn't, well, you can imagine how that will probably go.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Oh, internship in New York programs seems to always be in NY? I have never heard of anyone having to leave the city or long island for internship here.. I didn't even know that was a thing in other places ??? So you mean in other programs you have to often move to another state for internship ? That seems really weird. So how many times do they expect you to move for the field then ?

1x for the program
2x for internship
3x for post doc
4x for a job

I'm sorry that's ridiculous my partner would never be on board for that and frankly neither would I.

And again, here it doesn't seem like the norm is for people who aren't strictly academics to do post doc? That's what it seems to me from the phd students I've interacted with here in NYC and LI. Seems the post docs are the academics, or people from other countries/states, while the clinicians go for licensing and assistant positions afterwards.

That's all a lot and seems to be quite different than the experience here in NY that's also important to factor into this decision too huh. I guess it's because in other areas there's just not enough going on in the area the programs are to do it all there ?

I mean my issue with other states/less desirable states is would I meet the licensing hour requirements to come back and license in NY if I wanted to, or in some of these other states I would want to live in? (Massachusetts, Pacific north west, North East, etc). This stuff is a whole other ballpark to consider too

Yes, people often have to move for internship, especially in the NYC metro area. When you apply for internship, you aren't just competing for spots with other NYC metro area students (which, between NYC programs, Connecticut programs, and NJ programs, is enough in and of itself). You are competing with students all over the country who want to be in the area. NYS requires 1750 hours post-doc hours to get licensure. The easiest way that people often accrue those hours are via a formal post-doc, where the required supervision is built in. And trust me, it's not just "other programs." It's the reality for most in the field. And you've mentioned your boyfriend a few times in this thread, so if you decide not to take the Adelphi spot, you may need to have a very candid discussion with him about the realities of the field if this is in fact what you want to do. I am fortunate enough to have a fiance who doesn't mind following me regardless of if I got an acceptance in the NJ/NYC area or needed to go to Tennessee (he works for a national company which would allow him to transfer), but that is not always the reality. It seems like you need to really assess if a career as a psychologist is really something worth sacrificing things for (which, unless you're lucky, or possibly willing to put yourself in more debt, requires moving at least once, but possibly more).

Pursuing a doctorate is a tough choice. Ultimately, you are the only person who can make the decision that suits you best. However, I would encourage you to really look at all the details regarding what it really takes (and the time, effort, and potentially personal sacrifices) to become a clinical psychologist and see if this is really a path you want to embark on.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

I think a viable Option B would be to try to find a paid research assistant position and get additional research experience and mentoring that way, then try again for a funded program after a year or two (more like two, being realistic). It would benefit you to be part of a team that is more generous and forthcoming with authorship opportunities, with people who can show you the ropes when it comes to submitting your work to conference and peer-reviewed journals. The academic medical centers in the NY area would be a potentially good place to find such a team. However, I think this would only be worth the extra time if you were still willing to apply more broadly to doctoral programs, since no matter what it's still a competitive field.

And then there's Option A, because all that might not be worth it to you. It sounds like you enjoy your area and would prefer to stay put, and you have the certainty of an admission offer in hand. Only you can put a dollar value on that. You have gotten some solid advice here, much of it unvarnished, but at the end of the day it is up to you to decide whether it is worth low-mid six figures to know, with reasonably good odds (Adelphi's program has low attrition and decent match rates), that in approximately 5-6 years you will be able to call yourself a psychologist.

Speaking as someone who grew up "Pell grant poor" and took on some educational debt, I can tell you from the other side of the PhD that debt sucks even when you're making a decent salary. My advice is to do what you can to minimize it. Don't try to make this decision more complicated than it is. Accept the price tag or don't. Think about writing a check for a couple thousand a month (I'm guessing) to repay student loans, rather than to pay a mortgage or fund your kids' college funds or whatever, and doing that every month for decades. The worst thing you can do is put your head in the sand about that eventuality. I wouldn't do it. If you think you could really be at peace with that, then go for it if you want. There is only one name on that signature line, and only one person's opinion that truly matters here.

The issue of "what else could I do?" is best treated as an entirely separate question. Don't get caught up in the sunk cost trap.

Thanks for your response, you bring up some good points.

There are a lot of paid research coordinator positions in the NYC area, but I really don't know if that offers opportunity to be included in the publications ? I mean they're pretty well paying, 50k for some that I saw. But I don't know if it's like glorified lab manager and if you'd actually get any authorship. NYC from what I've seen so far, is all about building your career off the backs of others that don't get authorship lol. Very very few MA students and no undergrads have publications or authorship until phd level here from what I've seen. And at the new school like I said earlier, the only students who got authorship as MAs were ones who got into the phd program there (from what I saw).

What do you think the likelihood of figuring out how to submit the projects I have now are on my own? I was guided the whole time through the research, and edited my draft a million times for my mentor for 1 of the projects. Like i have data and a project that I can try to publish, I just don't know how to submit. Do you think it's possible to figure it out on my own, and get a submission accepted ?
And my other project I might be able to hassle the hell out of those mentors and get feedback to edit further to their liking (I edited according to a different faculty member but the data belongs to the mentors of my lab..they have stuff copy righted..i need their approval) but I don't know if it would be even possible to get their stamp approval, or worth dealing with then in that regard, for publication.
Like I said new school was weird and my lab rly was the worst with student publications unfortunately.

And yeah, I'm Pell Grant also. I always knew for this it would take debt. I always figured it would be worth it to get my dream and to help people. I never expected to be rich. And I also figured that even so with the Debt, with the salary; what I would be making after the fact would be comparable to/at least a little bit better than what I would be making anyways in one of the other fields.
So for the same income (after the debt) I might as well be doing more, and feel more fulfilled.
I'm just wondering if that's still the case with the level of debt I could be taking on..
I'd be walking away with about 200k after all this, without accounting for interest.
With that and the salary I'd make as a clinican and asst prof, in NY, what would that look like ? Would it be the same as a social worker/teacher salary anyways?
I'm not comparing myself to others in the field. I'll never have what they have coming from poverty. It's not the same playing field.
I'm comparing myself/future income to other middle class options and people cause that's what I expect for my life at this point. I don't expect to be that posh psychologist in NYC anymore with the fancy apartment and fancy office. Maybe I could be idk. But it feels unattainable again.

As a side note, I have been lately very tired of NYC. I was hoping I'd get into Colorado very badly. Idk what to do at this point I feel lost. I feel hopeless about the field, the rat race here is finally grinding me down, and NY is losing a lot of its appeal to me too. I'm honeslty a mess right now lol. I started realizing how miserable I was a little over a year ago when I was finishing my MA. I really thought I was hating NY/NYC and wanted out bad. After graduation I spent 2 months in the summer decompressing and trying to unwind, and got back to a lot of what I loved doing on LI, before throwing myself into the GEE prep and application process. I realized the MA program in the new school and my mentors really made me miserable. And maybe I'm tired of the city but not long island ? This app process didn't end up improving my state though and I feel pretty miserable about everything again.
Like I said, back tracking to what I wanted before all this and thinking about maybe pursuing my creative writing and English teaching made me feel hopeful again. More hopeful than I have in a long time.

 

[Justanothergrad]

And yeah, I'm Pell Grant also. I always knew for this it would take debt....I'll never have what they have coming from poverty. It's not the same playing field.

I want to be very clear about this in a last ditch effort to be helpful you and because I don't want others to believe this to be an accurate statement.

Coming from an EXTREMELY poor background, I am going to be very transparent here. I qualified for all sorts of things from pell grant to foodstamps growing up. I am a multi-generational high school drop out and had to work my way through community college to get into a university at all. I am debt free, earning a good salary, and a professor at a R1. I say this because I dont want you (or anyone) to believe that debt is a requirement for a doctoral degree or that becoming a psychologist is reserved for upper class individuals if they hope to have a healthy salary. It is an option you may opt for because of lifestyle decisions, but it is not a requirement. This is 100% a choice. It can be a reasonable choice depending on life circumstance, but it is a choice. Again, I want that to be very, very clear about this. You (and anyone else who believes this) should stop believing that you can't make money like others because of your background. This is objectively NOT TRUE. You may opt to because of your lifestyle choices and desires, but this is not a requirement. Full stop. Period. No exception. This profession does not REQUIRE debt.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

I want to be very clear about this in a last ditch effort to be helpful you and because I don't want others to believe this to be an accurate statement.

Coming from an EXTREMELY poor background, I am going to be very transparent here. I dont want you (or anyone) to believe that debt is a requirement for a doctoral degree or that becoming a psychologist is reserved for upper class individuals if they hope to have a healthy salary. It is an option you may opt for because of lifestyle, but it is not a requirement. This is 100% a choice. Again, I want that to be very, very clear about this. You (and anyone else who believes this) should stop believing that you can't make money like others because of your background. This is objectively NOT TRUE. You may opt to because of your lifestyle choices and desires, but this is not a requirement. Full stop. Period. No exception. This does not REQUIRE debt.

You seem to be one of those self made poor guys that believes since you found the magic way to do it debt free all pulled up from your bootstraps that everyone else can do it too, and those who can't made poor decisions and aren't as good as you.
We're what you would call, a class traitor my friend. Now please, get off my post. You're not helpful at all. You are rude and pedantic, and you called me a "typical snotty new yorker" way before I made insults about others so really, hop off my post. Go elsewhere. I'm sure there's loads of places in academia you get to be a insufferable know it all prick with no one who has the balls or cares enough to tell you to shut the hell up.

 

[Justanothergrad]

You seem to be one of those self made poor guys that believes since you found the magic way to do it debt free all pulled up from your bootstraps that everyone else can do it too, and those who can't made poor decisions and aren't as good as you.
We're what you would call, a class traitor my friend. Now please, get off my post. You're not helpful at all. You are rude and pedantic, and you called me a "typical snotty new yorker" way before I made insults about others so really, hop off my post. Go elsewhere. I'm sure there's loads of places in academia you get to be a insufferable know it all prick with no one who has the balls or cares enough to tell you to shut the hell up.

Well, that's a response..... I really don't know where to even start...

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

can we all operationally define/clarify the terms we are using here?
-in NY you do practica and externship while in your doctoral program. these are your first 4 years.
-the last year you are not affiliated with the school/lab, your dissertation is done, and you do a FT paid internship placement where you gain the rest of the clinical hours for licensure.

are you telling me that in NYS, you need additional hours from this in the form of a post-doc position to qualify for licensure too?
or are you all calling the internship the post doc? (regionally there may be differences i just want to check).
because here post-docs i've seen are only academic/research positions, and aren't clinical (i.e. not providing the supervised clinical licensing hours)
the only thing i can think of for a clinical post doc would be for people who didn't get a doctorates or internship in NY, and thus don't meet NYS licensing hour requirements, and thus need a post doc to meet the hours.

i was under the impression that in a doctoral and internship placement here in NY is built so that you meet the clinical supervision hours for licensure for NYS requirements.

am i wrong, or are we using different terms here?

 

[Justanothergrad]

can we all operationally define/clarify the terms we are using here?
-in NY you do practica and externship while in your doctoral program. these are your first 4 years.
-the last year you are not affiliated with the school/lab, your dissertation is done, and you do a FT paid internship placement where you gain the rest of the clinical hours for licensure.

are you telling me that in NYS, you need additional hours from this in the form of a post-doc position to qualify for licensure too?

Yes. In addition to the hours you accrue as part of your training (including practicum and internship), licensure in many (most) states requires that you obtain additional training after graduation. Frequently folks do this in a post-doctoral (post-doc) expeirence. This is true of clinicians and academics. Some fields require it (neuro/rehab). This is NOT internship. There is a separate match process. These are different terms and different things.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Yup, pretty much everyone has to move in this field at least once or twice. It sucks. If you want to stay in a certain geographical region, I would recommend against pursuing a psychology PhD or PsyD. And I'm not saying this because of anything personal, it's what I would tell anyone. I've moved five times in the last ten years (grad school, internship, post doc, first job, second job) and it's ridiculous. You have to be willing to uproot everything. I went to grad school in a location that you'd probably scoff at. I didn't love it, but I survived and was able to move to large cities for internship and post doc. If that's not a sacrifice you're willing to make, no judgment. Not wanting to do that isn't a failure on your part, I just want you to have your eyes open and be aware that you probably won't be able to stay in the NY area for all of your training. I have a psychologist friend from NYC who moved out of NY for grad school and to another state across the country for internship. She's back on the east coast but couldn't get a post doc or job in NYC. And her training is solid.

Furthermore, IMO this salary is not enough to live on in a big city. I was living in an awesome metropolitan area for post doc and I eventually moved back to my home state (yes, in flyover country!) because I was barely treading water financially, after years of moves and low pay. And I work at the VA, which pays fairly well for a psychologist job.

And, yes, even clinicians tend to do post docs now. It's getting more and more expected, and if you're competing for a job with someone who did a post doc over someone who didn't, well, you can imagine how that will probably go.

Yes, people often have to move for internship, especially in the NYC metro area. When you apply for internship, you aren't just competing for spots with other NYC metro area students (which, between NYC programs, Connecticut programs, and NJ programs, is enough in and of itself). You are competing with students all over the country who want to be in the area. NYS requires 1750 hours post-doc hours to get licensure. The easiest way that people often accrue those hours are via a formal post-doc, where the required supervision is built in. And trust me, it's not just "other programs." It's the reality for most in the field. And you've mentioned your boyfriend a few times in this thread, so if you decide not to take the Adelphi spot, you may need to have a very candid discussion with him about the realities of the field if this is in fact what you want to do. I am fortunate enough to have a fiance who doesn't mind following me regardless of if I got an acceptance in the NJ/NYC area or needed to go to Tennessee (he works for a national company which would allow him to transfer), but that is not always the reality. It seems like you need to really assess if a career as a psychologist is really something worth sacrificing things for (which, unless you're lucky, or possibly willing to put yourself in more debt, requires moving at least once, but possibly more).

Pursuing a doctorate is a tough choice. Ultimately, you are the only person who can make the decision that suits you best. However, I would encourage you to really look at all the details regarding what it really takes (and the time, effort, and potentially personal sacrifices) to become a clinical psychologist and see if this is really a path you want to embark on.

honestly yeah i didn't realize there was so much moving around if you go to programs outside of NYC. i thought internship placements were always by your school. all the PhD students in the new school went on interviews and got internship placements in NYC, and i'm pretty sure the same is for most of the other phd programs in NY like i said..i haven't heard/seen of doctoral students in NY/LI having to leave NYC/LI for internship..and i really didn't realize people even did internship placements like outside of the area they went to school in.

i mean my expectation was if i moved somewhere for a doctoral program, that's where i'd do the whole damn thing. and then sort of pick where to work after and maybe move for work.

i think how good a salary is to live in a certain area is subjective. there's plenty of people who make it on much less than what a psychologist makes in those areas. i mean there's entire middle and working class people in every area. it's hard but it's what i grew up with and what i see. most people i know support families on LI with around 100k a year. my roommate now is an engineer who makes 75k a year and he thinks it's not enough but like the most stable family i knew growing up, that's what the dad made with no income from the wife and supported a family of 5 on it. so i mean, idk. it's subjective. whatever my income is plus my boyfriends will be at least upper middle class, depending on how much i have after student loans.

for us right now we were pretty set on potentially moving out of the NY area though. he def is a little more working class than me, and can deal with more rural settings than i can. yes i am a little more snobby, and i don't see anything wrong with that. some people like shooting and race tracks and some people don't. doesn't make me a bad person lol. i think for us that's been an issue. he said he would follow me anywhere but when it comes down to it, he has an issue with a lot of the places i would want to be in the northeast and he has hesitations about the pacific northwest. furthermore, we thought it would be pretty much 1 big move. not a bunch of bopping around. i really don't think that's anything either one of us would really be on board for to be honest. and if that's the standard outside of the NY area, then i think you guys have brought up some really serious considerations that would effect my decision.

i still don't know if i would be comfortable taking on this debt. i still don't know if i can handle pulling 80 hour weeks between lab, research, class, clinical work, and my PT job. i still don't know if i can struggle much longer in the NY area. but moving around a million times isn't something i want to HAVE to do. if i move somewhere i want it to be because it's somewhere we want to live. and also, i can't uproot his career that many times! he can transfer more easily than most people being part of an international union, but still!

so i think really. this knocked off the appeal of continuing to try to get into a phd elsewhere. if this much moving around is standard, and we mean big moves, state moves that you really have no control over...then that's not an appealing lifestyle at all.

if you all are correct on how much moving around this route is, then i mean i guess my choices really are between adelphi and leaving the field.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Here's what Adelphi has to say about internship derner.adelphi.edu/psychology/doctoral-program/practicum-training/internship-training/

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Through a sequence of graded and increasingly complex clinical training experiences beginning in the first year, progressing through two externships, and ending with the internship, the program aims to equip trainees with the core competencies and skills deemed necessary for independent practice as a clinical psychologist.

The program’s policy is that whenever possible, all students will complete APA accredited internships. In recognition of the fact that the national internship imbalance poses obstacles to this goal, we encourage students to apply to (APPIC) listed sites that are unaccredited as well.

In internship training year 2013-2014, the doctoral program began an affiliated Internship, the Derner Institute Internship Consortium. The Internship attained APPIC membership in 2013 and APA accreditation in 2016. Only Derner students are considered as applicants to the Derner Internship in Phase I of the Match; unfilled positions are open to qualified students from other APA-Accredited Doctoral Programs in Counseling, Clinical and School Psychology in Phase II of the Match and in the post-match vacancy period. For detailed information, please consult the Derner Institute Internship Consortium handbook pdf.

We strongly suggest applying to a minimum of 18 sites if you are applying only to sites in the NY Metropolitan area. APPIC prepares statistics that correlate to the number of applications students send out with their respective match rates. Sending more than 18 applications appears to offer no additional advantages. However, if you are also attempting to match outside of the NY Metro area, you should apply to a minimum of 10 additional sites.

We recommend consulting with the students who are just starting internship or have recently completed internships. They are a valuable resource for you, especially those who applied to sites you are considering. We will provide you with a record of where current students are placed and recently graduated students trained.

Also like I said, all the New school PhD students, at least in the lab I was in..matched in NYC. Except for one. But it wasn't a surprise because that girl was weird and unprofessional.

 

[psych.meout]

Also like I said, all the New school PhD students, at least in the lab I was in..matched in NYC. Except for one. But it wasn't a surprise because that girl was weird and unprofessional.

Captive internships are a bad thing.

They are what crappy programs do to game the system, because they can't compete with actually good programs and can't or won't do things to substantially change their programs to improve their match rate.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

NYS Licensing

You must present evidence satisfactory to the State Board for Psychology, of two years of full-time supervised experience (defined as 1750 clock hours per year) or the part-time equivalent, consistent with the scope of practice in psychology in Section 7601-A of the State Education Law.

Content

Your experience must consist of a planned programmed sequence of supervised employment or engagement in appropriate psychology activities performed in accordance with the definition of the practice of psychology provided above, and satisfactory in quality, breadth, scope and nature.

One year of the following types of experience may be accepted provided that it integrates psychological knowledge and application:

• A university approved doctoral level practicum, internship, field experience or applied research as long as the research experience is not a part of your dissertation or thesis requirement;
• Teaching psychology, as a university or college faculty member may be accepted provided it meets all the requirements for supervised experience.

Setting

1. An acceptable setting must:
   
   
   • provide psychological services as defined in Section 7601-A of NYS Education Law;
   • provide supervision to you by a qualified psychologist responsible for the design, coordination, integrity and quality of your experience;
   • employ your supervisor, or secure his or her services as a consultant, provided that on or after January 1, 1988, the setting shall retain the qualified consultant;
   • provide a title for you that conforms to the requirements in Section 7605 of NYS Education Law that clearly designates your training status such as, "psychological intern or psychological trainee," or as "psychologist" if you hold a limited permit;
   • provide a title that meets the conditions of Section 17-A of Chapter 676 of the Laws of 2002 when you provide services in a program authorized under that section, which does not include the word "psychology, psychological, or psychologist", and
   • accept responsibility for your services while securing licensure-qualifying experience.

Duration

1. Acceptable experience must be continuous within periods of at least six months and meet the following requirements:
   
   In academic settings
   Experience must consist of continuous experience within a period of not less than one semester. If you submit teaching experience, it must consist of not less than six credit hours of teaching per semester. The six-month periods or the semesters of experience are not required to be immediately successive (i.e., one after the other).
   
   All Other practice settings
   Acceptable full-time experience may consist of 35 to 45 hours a week.
   
   Acceptable part-time experience must consist of at least 16 hours, but no more than 34 hours a week and must be gained in a minimum of two days a week.
   

Supervision

Your supervisor is required to be:

• licensed in the jurisdiction in which the supervision is provided or, in exempt settings as defined by Section 7605 of NYS Education Law, your supervisor must have qualifications satisfactory to the Department.
• the owner of, employed by, or be a consultant to, the setting in which the experience occurs.

For every period of full-time experience gained - At least two hours of weekly supervision, including one hour of individual, face-to-face supervision regarding services you provided and one additional hour which shall be either face-to-face supervision, group supervision, seminars or workshops, or apprenticeship activities.

For every period of part-time experience gained - At least two hours of supervision within every two week period, one hour of which must be face-to-face supervision; and, one additional hour that must be either face-to-face supervision, group supervision, seminars or workshops, or apprenticeship activities.

I don't know, I really think most doctoral programs and internships in NY give you the licensing and supervision hours in your externship and internship to meet licensing requirements.

Are there any people who went to doctoral programs and internships in NY and were licensed in it here that can give more input on that?

If you all say that it's necessary for post doc hours for licnesing in most other places, and it's actually not in NY, then that's another big factor.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Captive internships are a bad thing.

They are what crappy programs do to game the system, because they can't compete with actually good programs and can't or won't do things to substantially change their programs to improve their match rate.

what are you talking about? these were APA accredited matches. expect for that 1 girl who didn't match. i knew her, and it was not surprising that she didn't to me. what is a captive internship?

and the adelphi consortium internship program IS apa accredited

Adelphi’s Gordon F. Derner School of Psychology is the only clinical psychology program in the New York-Northern New Jersey metropolitan area to be awarded accreditation from the American Psychological Association (APA) for its own affiliated internship program.

The Derner Internship Consortium assures preferred access to an accredited internship for up to six of its students each year. The selected students will pursue internship training at the following six sites:

• Adelphi’s Student Counseling Center
• The Center for Motivation and Change
• Counseling and Psychological Wellness Services at SUNY College at Old Westbury
• Long Beach Reach, Inc.
• The Village Institute for Psychotherapy
• William Alanson White Institute of Psychiatry, Psychoanalysis & Psychology

Derner collaborates with each of the sites to ensure that interns have the opportunity to provide direct care to a diverse population of patients, that they receive the close supervision needed to hone their clinical skills and that they participate in didactic training to increase their knowledge base.

 

[psych.meout]

what are you talking about? these were APA accredited matches. expect for that 1 girl who didn't match. i knew her, and it was not surprising that she didn't to me. what is a captive internship?

and the adelphi consortium internship program IS apa accredited

This is a captive internship:

In internship training year 2013-2014, the doctoral program began an affiliated Internship, the Derner Institute Internship Consortium. The Internship attained APPIC membership in 2013 and APA accreditation in 2016. Only Derner students are considered as applicants to the Derner Internship in Phase I of the Match; unfilled positions are open to qualified students from other APA-Accredited Doctoral Programs in Counseling, Clinical and School Psychology in Phase II of the Match and in the post-match vacancy period. For detailed information, please consult the Derner Institute Internship Consortium handbook pdf.

Crappy doctoral programs set up APA-accredited internship sites and then only allow (or even force) their own students to match there, at least in phase 1. This allows them to game the internship match system and artificially inflate their match rates, so it looks like their students are more competitive for internships than they actually are.

Compare this to good programs, which have high match rates (>90%) without doing this.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

If it's APA accredited though, what's the difference?

 

[psych.meout]

If it's APA accredited though, what's the difference?

1. It means that the training you get in the program is crappy. Sure, you still get an accredited site for your internship, but the training you'd be receiving isn't any better than what you would have gotten before they got their site accredited. It's the same crappy training that prevented their students from getting internships before they started using the captive site. Furthermore, it removes any incentive for them to improve the training. Without the site, at least they would have a motive to improve their training to bump up their match rate. Now, they can just rest on their laurels and take money from all the students they've tricked.

2. It limits your training options. If the program relies on the captive site for matching, then your internship training is limited by what they offer. At better programs, you have more options and they can be chosen based on your interests and career goals, not whatever the program chose to cobble together for their captive site. Maybe this is fine for you now, but you might regret it if your interests change during grad school.

3. The reputation of the program and the training it offers are, at best, still the same as it was before they started using the captive site. Your reputation is tied to theirs, which can thereby limit your career options. Lots of better-paying and more prestigious employers don't even consider applications of graduates from some of these programs. I'm not saying that no good or even great psychologists come out of these programs. It's that they are the outliers and succeed in spite of their programs, instead of because of them. Doctoral training should be about latter. And don't count on yourself being one of these outliers, that bad statistics and basically gambling with your future.

 

[SLB-CO]

NYS Licensing



I don't know, I really think most doctoral programs and internships in NY give you the licensing and supervision hours in your externship and internship to meet licensing requirements.

Are there any people who went to doctoral programs and internships in NY and were licensed in it here that can give more input on that?

If you all say that it's necessary for post doc hours for licnesing in most other places, and it's actually not in NY, then that's another big factor.

Yes, you must complete postdoctoral hours (meaning post-PhD/PsyD) to become licensed as a psychologist in the state of New York.

From their licensing requirements page, "You must present evidence satisfactory to the State Board for Psychology, of two years of full-time supervised experience (defined as 1750 clock hours per year) or the part-time equivalent, consistent with the scope of practice in psychology in Section 7601-A of the State Education Law. If you received a doctoral degree on or after October 1, 1992, one of the two years, consisting of 1750 clock hours, must be done after the date your institution has determined that you completed all doctoral degree requirements, including the dissertation."

An internship is part of your doctoral degree requirements; you won't receive your doctorate without completing it. All of these additional hours must be accrued after you have your degree.

It is a long road. I'm sorry for your disappointment. I'm sorry you haven't had helpful conversation with mentors about what becoming a psychologist truly entails and how competitive the process of getting in and continuing on is. I also know it's hard to hear feedback on this board when you are disappointed and frustrated. With that said, I do want to reiterate a point that someone made: You don't have to take on debt to become a psychologist. I also did not come from money - and in fact grew up and attended a very cheap and pretty unknown state school for undergrad in flyover country. I never imagined getting a PhD; I thought I was lucky to get a BA! And I didn't get research experience until far into my education because I didn't know any better - and then a future mentor approached me. Changed my world, really. I'm so thankful to them. I spent time accruing experience after my bachelor's and attended a fully-funded PhD program. Yes, I had to move for it. Yes, it wasn't in the location I considered ideal. But my graduate mentor was phenomenal, I learned so much, and I came to love and learn from the city I was living in. Yes, I moved again for internship and again for my faculty position (thank god for my also working class, incredible partner and his willingness to sacrifice for my dream), and now I'm in a job I love (he is too) and we're in a location we adore. Obviously no one can make this decision but you, and I wish you the best in making the decision that fits for you, but please know that you don't have to settle for taking on (more) debt in order to accomplish your dream. There are other ways to get there. If you haven't read it, Mitch's advice is a nice start: http://mitch.web.unc.edu/files/2017/02/MitchGradSchoolAdvice.pdf

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Yes, you must complete postdoctoral hours (meaning post-PhD/PsyD) to become licensed as a psychologist in the state of New York.

From their licensing requirements page, "You must present evidence satisfactory to the State Board for Psychology, of two years of full-time supervised experience (defined as 1750 clock hours per year) or the part-time equivalent, consistent with the scope of practice in psychology in Section 7601-A of the State Education Law. If you received a doctoral degree on or after October 1, 1992, one of the two years, consisting of 1750 clock hours, must be done after the date your institution has determined that you completed all doctoral degree requirements, including the dissertation."

An internship is part of your doctoral degree requirements; you won't receive your doctorate without completing it. All of these additional hours must be accrued after you have your degree.

It is a long road. I'm sorry for your disappointment. I'm sorry you haven't had helpful conversation with mentors about what becoming a psychologist truly entails and how competitive the process of getting in and continuing on is. I also know it's hard to hear feedback on this board when you are disappointed and frustrated. With that said, I do want to reiterate a point that someone made: You don't have to take on debt to become a psychologist. I also did not come from money - and in fact grew up and attended a very cheap and pretty unknown state school for undergrad in flyover country. I never imagined getting a PhD; I thought I was lucky to get a BA! And I didn't get research experience until far into my education because I didn't know any better - and then a future mentor approached me. Changed my world, really. I'm so thankful to them. I spent time accruing experience after my bachelor's and attended a fully-funded PhD program. Yes, I had to move for it. Yes, it wasn't in the location I considered ideal. But my graduate mentor was phenomenal, I learned so much, and I came to love and learn from the city I was living in. Yes, I moved again for internship and again for my faculty position (thank god for my also working class, incredible partner and his willingness to sacrifice for my dream), and now I'm in a job I love (he is too) and we're in a location we adore. Obviously no one can make this decision but you, and I wish you the best in making the decision that fits for you, but please know that you don't have to settle for taking on (more) debt in order to accomplish your dream. There are other ways to get there. If you haven't read it, Mitch's advice is a nice start:

WOW. I really had no idea that your internship didn't count for those hours! Wtf!!! This field is insane.

I had issues getting into cheaper undergrad programs so that's why I have undergrad debt, and I had to dorm and get away from my family in the beginning for like safety reasons. Honestly all my debt from UG is really from dorming.

For my master's, I had a choice. I could have gone to Hunter which was much cheaper than the New School. I actually made the tuition deposit and was gunna go, but at last minute decided to go to the new school. I got pulled in by the glamor of it, the PhD only accepting internal students (less competitive), and the clinical research opportunity there. In that lab I was able to assist on evidence based clinical research on the population I'm interested in working with and researching. I figured it would be worth the investment of more debt for what I thought was better opportunities that would increase my competitiveness and hopefully grant my a fully funded PhD spot. I thought it would be the last bit of debt I would take out, and having a PhD and less than 100k in debt was a good bargain! I really didn't think I would have a problem getting into a funded PhD after the new school, or that I would finish my MA with no publication.
I didn't know you'd have to move upwards of 5x for fully funded positions. I didn't know you needed post-doc hours for licensing.

I had no mentoring whatsoever in undergrad to speak of.
What I've gained after was spotty at best.
My mentors at the new school were the biggest let down of my entire life. I actually have had nightmares of the woman standing by why i get murdered and doing nothing which is pretty much a shining example of what working with her was like lol.
Thanks for the sympathy. I got Fed.

I really wish someone would have walked me through everything more so this in the beginning, like when I was 16 years old and said "i want to be a psychologist!!" and I would have done something else and saved myself all this time and money.

I think I'm going to bow out of this field my friends.
It's a shame.
They're losing someone passionate, good with patients and participants, hard working, and someone who really wanted a PhD so I had the most opportunities to reach and help the most people. I wanted to do it all.
But I mean. I just don't think this is gunna work out. I don't see any way it can at this point.

I barely could before I came and spoke to you all, and I've gotten feedback that only makes it seem like a worse choice for me..not a better one.
I knew it was a long road. But a 15 year road is ****ing insane for any career. And honestly find me one that it takes that long in besides this..
At least I can say I tried.

 

[deleted343839]

There are a lot of paid research coordinator positions in the NYC area, but I really don't know if that offers opportunity to be included in the publications ? I mean they're pretty well paying, 50k for some that I saw. But I don't know if it's like glorified lab manager and if you'd actually get any authorship.

You do have to do your homework. Some labs/PIs are more generous than others. The reason I brought up academic medical centers is because I've seen more BA- and MA-level authors in those settings, and authorship standards tend to be a bit more generous in the culture of academic medicine (I can think of 3 or 4 bachelor's-level research assistants with whom I've shared authorship in this kind of setting).

NYC from what I've seen so far, is all about building your career off the backs of others that don't get authorship lol. Very very few MA students and no undergrads have publications or authorship until phd level here from what I've seen. And at the new school like I said earlier, the only students who got authorship as MAs were ones who got into the phd program there (from what I saw).

It's not terribly common for undergraduates to have peer-reviewed journal publications, but it's not unheard of. Much more common are student poster or podium presentations at national conferences. If you were to attend the APA convention, for example, you'd see a lot of student research on display and I guarantee that would include submissions from NYC-area institutions - maybe just not yours? I think you are overgeneralizing the situation in NYC based on your personal experiences, and perhaps conflating your institution's culture with a regional trend.

Anyway, your remark about "building your career off the backs of others" reminds me of many debates I've read and heard about to what extent graduate student effort constitutes apprenticeship v. exploitation, and the notion that graduate training works as a kind of pyramid scheme. These viewpoints are a bit cynical but not entirely baseless. The problem of graduate student labor becomes complicated when high tuition enters the picture. It's easier to think of grad school as an apprenticeship when your tuition is waived, you get a modest stipend, and you get authorship credit for your effort at least most of the time.

I always knew for this it would take debt. I always figured it would be worth it to get my dream and to help people. I never expected to be rich. And I also figured that even so with the Debt, with the salary; what I would be making after the fact would be comparable to/at least a little bit better than what I would be making anyways in one of the other fields.
So for the same income (after the debt) I might as well be doing more, and feel more fulfilled.
I'm just wondering if that's still the case with the level of debt I could be taking on..

I don't think a large amount of debt is necessary. For someone who is really without a financial safety net, a modest amount of debt may be difficult to avoid depending on circumstances. But even an above-average income for a psychologist is unlikely to outpace the kind of debt you're talking about. Personally, I wouldn't do it.

for us right now we were pretty set on potentially moving out of the NY area though. he def is a little more working class than me, and can deal with more rural settings than i can. yes i am a little more snobby, and i don't see anything wrong with that. some people like shooting and race tracks and some people don't. doesn't make me a bad person lol.

Serious question: have you traveled much in the US? You may hail from NYC but your attitude comes off as a bit sheltered. If you decide to re-apply later, why not aim for other major cities if you like a more urban setting? There's at least one clinical PhD program in most major cities. Take your pick: Miami, Atlanta, Philadephia, Chicago, Denver, Houston, San Diego, L.A., Seattle... ? Add in medium-sized cities and you have a huge range of possible options. Leaving your comfort zone has its pains but it can be a great opportunity for growth too.

if you all are correct on how much moving around this route is, then i mean i guess my choices really are between adelphi and leaving the field.

i haven't heard/seen of doctoral students in NY/LI having to leave NYC/LI for internship..and i really didn't realize people even did internship placements like outside of the area they went to school in.

I was fortunate to be able to go to grad school, internship, and postdoc within the same state. But it's absolutely true that not everyone does this. If you ask around enough, you'll find that plenty of NYC-area psychology trainees have also moved long distances for their training. I'm sorry you're just now learning about what a psychologist's education can entail. It's a shame you didn't get that kind of mentoring from the programs you attended. But it's not for everyone.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

You do have to do your homework. Some labs/PIs are more generous than others. The reason I brought up academic medical centers is because I've seen more BA- and MA-level authors in those settings, and authorship standards tend to be a bit more generous in the culture of academic medicine (I can think of 3 or 4 bachelor's-level research assistants with whom I've shared authorship in this kind of setting).




It's not terribly common for undergraduates to have peer-reviewed journal publications, but it's not unheard of. Much more common are student poster or podium presentations at national conferences. If you were to attend the APA convention, for example, you'd see a lot of student research on display and I guarantee that would include submissions from NYC-area institutions - maybe just not yours? I think you are overgeneralizing the situation in NYC based on your personal experiences, and perhaps conflating your institution's culture with a regional trend.

Anyway, your remark about "building your career off the backs of others" reminds me of many debates I've read and heard about to what extent graduate student effort constitutes apprenticeship v. exploitation, and the notion that graduate training works as a kind of pyramid scheme. These viewpoints are a bit cynical but not entirely baseless. The problem of graduate student labor becomes complicated when high tuition enters the picture. It's easier to think of grad school as an apprenticeship when your tuition is waived, you get a modest stipend, and you get authorship credit for your effort at least most of the time.




I don't think a large amount of debt is necessary. For someone who is really without a financial safety net, a modest amount of debt may be difficult to avoid depending on circumstances. But even an above-average income for a psychologist is unlikely to outpace the kind of debt you're talking about. Personally, I wouldn't do it.




Serious question: have you traveled much in the US? You may hail from NYC but your attitude comes off as a bit sheltered. If you decide to re-apply later, why not aim for other major cities if you like a more urban setting? There's at least one clinical PhD program in most major cities. Take your pick: Miami, Atlanta, Philadephia, Chicago, Denver, Houston, San Diego, L.A., Seattle... ? Add in medium-sized cities and you have a huge range of possible options. Leaving your comfort zone has its pains but it can be a great opportunity for growth too.






I was fortunate to be able to go to grad school, internship, and postdoc within the same state. But it's absolutely true that not everyone does this. If you ask around enough, you'll find that plenty of NYC-area psychology trainees have also moved long distances for their training. I'm sorry you're just now learning about what a psychologist's education can entail. It's a shame you didn't get that kind of mentoring from the programs you attended. But it's not for everyone.

i mean i have thought of my next step being either case management positions, or research coordinator positions. i would prefer going into case mgmt working with similar populations i worked with at the clinic i volunteered with through my lab in the MA, but the research positions pay more and it seems from this thread here would be better if i wanted to get into a phd program...

and i can't afford to travel for conferences, and never have been able to.

and yes, i've traveled a good amount around the US.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

.

 

[deleted343839]

I didn't go to a conference until my first year in my doctoral program, and my PI paid my travel expenses out of a research grant. My parents contributed a small amount towards my college tuition but they didn't chip in a dime for grad school. There's another way; it's just not worth it to you. It's OK to admit that. It's your decision.

that's what he's been telling me, even though now he's trying to basically crowdfund through my whole family money to go to adelphi which is just laughable to me because if he had done what i asked and not gone on a million ski trips and disney and key west and fishing and whatever trips and instead put that money aside for school then well. maybe we'd have a little more something.
but he's selfish and very much a pleasure seeker. and as a result of my parents divorcing at an early age, he has that divorced dad syndrome where they think the only way to bond with their children is through trips and gifts and **** even if i say 100x i don't really want them and would rather he save his money.

This is taking a wrong turn. Go to bed.

 

[psychrat]

WOW. I really had no idea that your internship didn't count for those hours! Wtf!!! This field is insane.

I had issues getting into cheaper undergrad programs so that's why I have undergrad debt, and I had to dorm and get away from my family in the beginning for like safety reasons. Honestly all my debt from UG is really from dorming.

For my master's, I had a choice. I could have gone to Hunter which was much cheaper than the New School. I actually made the tuition deposit and was gunna go, but at last minute decided to go to the new school. I got pulled in by the glamor of it, the PhD only accepting internal students (less competitive), and the clinical research opportunity there. In that lab I was able to assist on evidence based clinical research on the population I'm interested in working with and researching. I figured it would be worth the investment of more debt for what I thought was better opportunities that would increase my competitiveness and hopefully grant my a fully funded PhD spot. I thought it would be the last bit of debt I would take out, and having a PhD and less than 100k in debt was a good bargain! I really didn't think I would have a problem getting into a funded PhD after the new school, or that I would finish my MA with no publication.
I didn't know you'd have to move upwards of 5x for fully funded positions. I didn't know you needed post-doc hours for licensing.

I had no mentoring whatsoever in undergrad to speak of.
What I've gained after was spotty at best.
My mentors at the new school were the biggest let down of my entire life. I actually have had nightmares of the woman standing by why i get murdered and doing nothing which is pretty much a shining example of what working with her was like lol.
Thanks for the sympathy. I got Fed.

I really wish someone would have walked me through everything more so this in the beginning, like when I was 16 years old and said "i want to be a psychologist!!" and I would have done something else and saved myself all this time and money.

I think I'm going to bow out of this field my friends.
It's a shame.
They're losing someone passionate, good with patients and participants, hard working, and someone who really wanted a PhD so I had the most opportunities to reach and help the most people. I wanted to do it all.
But I mean. I just don't think this is gunna work out. I don't see any way it can at this point.

I barely could before I came and spoke to you all, and I've gotten feedback that only makes it seem like a worse choice for me..not a better one.
I knew it was a long road. But a 15 year road is ****ing insane for any career. And honestly find me one that it takes that long in besides this..
At least I can say I tried.

It sounds like you did not do your homework with what it takes to become a clinical psychologist.

Like I said, I went to the same MA program as you, but was clearly guided a lot more. The New School (even at the PhD level) is not funded, so I am confused as to why you thought you would be fulyl-funded if you got into their program. I know several students there who left the state for internship (yes, many matched in NY, but the school makes it clear that one should apply broadly). Leaving state for internship has nothing to do with someone "being weird" as you said. Furthermore, postdoc is the norm in this field. Even most New School students ended up doing them. I am not sure what lab you were in, but you seem to have a lot of misinformation.

I am also grew up with NYC in my backyard. People leave all the time for school and them move back. I did my PhD out west. I was lucky to match for internship and postdoc in the NYC area and am now licensed in NY an working on NJ. NY is actually a lot easier than many other states (NJ, CA, MIC) to get licensed in. Please get off your high horse.

Signed, a fellow New Yorker

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

It sounds like you did not do your homework with what it takes to become a clinical psychologist.

Like I said, I went to the same MA program as you, but was clearly guided a lot more. The New School (even at the PhD level) is not funded, so I am confused as to why you thought you would be fulyl-funded if you got into their program. I know several students there who left the state for internship (yes, many matched in NY, but the school makes it clear that one should apply broadly). Leaving state for internship has nothing to do with someone "being weird" as you said. Furthermore, postdoc is the norm in this field. Even most New School students ended up doing them. I am not sure what lab you were in, but you seem to have a lot of misinformation.

I am also grew up with NYC in my backyard. People leave all the time for school and them move back. I did my PhD out west. I was lucky to match for internship and postdoc in the NYC area and am now licensed in NY an working on NJ. NY is actually a lot easier than many other states (NJ, CA, MIC) to get licensed in. Please get off your high horse.

Signed, a fellow New Yorker

I guess I just thought that the post doc hours was part of internship as most phd students I saw and knew all did internship in NYC and I didn't hear much about post doc from anyone, and most phd students I saw weren't moving, and the new school and Adelphi both talk about matching in New York and never brought up out of state. We had a post doc in our lab from Israel but she was just doing research and nothing clinical...I guess I just thought it was more of an academic thing

I mean the post doc isn't that big of a deal to me. It's the expectation of moving for a phd, moving for internship, moving again for post doc, and then again for work. That's too much.

I have no problem moving somewhere for a phd program but that'sw different then 4 times. And it just doesn't seem like thats really a norm for many of the phd students in the new York area?

And the new school does have some fully funded spots. 1 of my friends just got a full tuition remission and 20k stipend. I wasn't going to go there anyways unless I got full funding and expected i would be able to get into a fully funded program with the research and clinical experience I had from my lab there. It also seemed like to me a publication before a doctorates is amazing but not necessarily the norm. As I went on in the new school I saw students in other labs getting more of those opportunities and no one in my lab even had collected data for their MA thesis or started writing it but me before they graduated with their MA (besides me). As I said my lab unfortunately was terrible with student research and didn't give the time of day to students until admitted into the phd program.
Also I got 50% funding my final year in the MA and your MA funding rolls over, plus whatever they give you extra for phd funding so it would have probably been fully funded had I got in or decided to go there.
A couple doctoral students suggested I stay involved in the lab and reapply this year, but I had a bad taste in my mouth from it. Apparently everyone who applied this cycle got in, unlike the previous cycle I was in. Apparenly not many people applied this cycle, and many rejected the offers due to some funding or just not liking the program.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Nope, New York isn't the magical exception to the norm everyone else faces. That's not to say that everyone moves so many times throughout their career, but that is a potential reality you need to come to terms with(if you decide to pursue this career path). People can't always assume they're the outlier. You gotta assume that your experience will be that of the typical grad student, and part of that is the potential for moving.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Nope, New York isn't the magical exception to the norm everyone else faces. That's not to say that everyone moves so many times throughout their career, but that is a potential reality you need to come to terms with(if you decide to pursue this career path). People can't always assume they're the outlier. You gotta assume that your experience will be that of the typical grad student, and part of that is the potential for moving.

I'd like to hear from more phd students in New York on this issue. I'm going to speak with my friends who are current PhD students here. Because it really seems like to me the outliers are the ones who move for internship.. none of the doctoral students in my lab the 2 years I was at the new school got internship placement outside of NYC.

 

[Temperance]

I'd like to hear from more phd students in New York on this issue. I'm going to speak with my friends who are current PhD students here. Because it really seems like to me the outliers are the ones who move for internship.. none of the doctoral students in my lab the 2 years I was at the new school got internship placement outside of NYC.

In addition to talking to your friends, I would recommend emailing graduate students and alumni directly. Here's a list of programs located within New York City:

Fordham University
Long Island University
New York University
St. John's University
Teachers College, Columbia University
The Graduate Center, City University of New York
The New School
Yeshiva University

While it is true that many, if not the majority, move frequently during their training, you don't strictly have to do so. You always have the option of staying in the area, but the consequence of that may be that you don't graduate because you can't match to an APA-accredited predoctoral internship site in NYC or other desirable area, or that you can't find a suitable postdoctoral fellowship after graduating, or that you can't get a faculty position in a timely manner. You will have to judge how much risk you're willing to take for the things you choose to prioritize.

 

[cara susanna]

IMO, it's a lot easier to move out of state for grad school and internship and try to come back for post doc or a job. Post docs and jobs care about training and prior experience, they don't care that you didn't want to leave NYC. To have the best chance of getting the ultimate job that you want, you need to pursue training that will make you competitive for it, wherever that may be. For instance, you mentioned the VA--in some places, you can get a VA job without prior VA experience, but I'm guessing that NYC isn't one of them. The issue, is of course, it takes years of delayed gratification. I feel the need to mention that I didn't acquire any debt throughout my schooling or training, and I'm still struggling financially (as I mentioned above, moving cross-country several times added up, and a lot of training positions don't pay a living wage for certain cities).

The thing to keep in mind is that everyone tends to apply cross country for internship, and at least to 15 sites. People who rank NYC sites highly may not match to them. In this field, there's a risk of not getting an APA internship at all, let alone getting one in the exact metropolitan area that you want. Geographical desirability plays a role but every single APA site is competitive regardless of location, even in the ones in the middle of nowhere. I applied to one place close to my home state, in what you'd consider flyover country, and I didn't even get an interview there. Later, I did get a job interview there because I had the experience that they wanted--which I acquired through my training at other sites. Is it completely ridiculous that internship is so competitive? Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact.

By the way, internship counts for some of your licensure hours (well, at least in the states I've lived in), but only about half of them.

 

[YoungFrancis]

While I understand your fear that you may never get another offer, you simply didn't apply to enough schools to gauge this. I know you were weary about the cost of applications, but it's only a few grand vs. 200k debt that you would saddle yourself with by taking the Adelphi offer.

There are plenty of schools outside of your geographical requirements that happen to be in urban areas with plenty of things to do. These schools get fewer applications than the ones you applied for and often have better funding.

Get a paid RA job and study for the GRE. It sounds like you had a poor experience with mentors -- I know about this all too well. Be up front about your goals and if they can't help you, look elsewhere.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Hey all so I did some research on a few programs RE internship placement that had listed in NYC and asked some friends on phd programs. The consensus is that doctoral students in NYC tend to go out of state for internship if they were planning on leaving anyway, and many stay in NYC. But outside of here moving is the norm.

I also emailed my POI at Adelphi and the head of the department today asking or that list of internship placement sites and the head said he is at a conference and will get me the info later today.

This is a big deal to me. Me and my partner are not ok with relocating for a doctortes, internship, post doc ,and job.

I think for me now the decision would be:
- to take the Adelphi Offer
-reject and apply to other schools in this area
-leave the field (for education or social work. I need to pick what my passion is more as phd is both teaching and therapy)

Thanks for all this input you all really helped me realize some things about the field and this doctoral process I didn't know about.

I don't think it would be worth it for us to delay my education for me to take more research positions to gain experience to get into a program where we will have to move upwards of 4x.

 

[cara susanna]

Remember too that by the time of internship apps, you'll likely have specific training goals that won't be a good fit for all NYC sites.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I don't recall if APPIC tracks the data, but you could try looking at their site and the match stats to see if they report the proportions of folks who go to a different state for internship. I would venture a guess that the majority do indeed head to a different state for internship, but that's just based on my own experiences (as a student and as training faculty).

As others have said, there certainly are folks who stay in the same state for all aspects of training, but this is relatively rare. I would hazard a guess that the most common moves occur for grad school and again for internship. After that, there's a good bit more choice involved, both for postdoc (should you do one) and jobs. Exception perhaps being for specialties in which postdoc is more formalized and expected (e.g., neuropsych), in which case moving again for fellowship is not unusual.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

While I understand your fear that you may never get another offer, you simply didn't apply to enough schools to gauge this. I know you were weary about the cost of applications, but it's only a few grand vs. 200k debt that you would saddle yourself with by taking the Adelphi offer.

There are plenty of schools outside of your geographical requirements that happen to be in urban areas with plenty of things to do. These schools get fewer applications than the ones you applied for and often have better funding.

Get a paid RA job and study for the GRE. It sounds like you had a poor experience with mentors -- I know about this all too well. Be up front about your goals and if they can't help you, look elsewhere.

It's not that I was weary of the cost of applications, I literally could not afford to apply to any more/travel to any more out of state locations. You say that it's only a few grand, but I didn't have that.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Remember too that by the time of internship apps, you'll likely have specific training goals that won't be a good fit for all NYC sites.

Moving again just for internship doesn't sound that bad. But moving for internship, post doc, 1st job, 2nd job..that's too much. And then if you throw in the extra move if I do re-apply out of state and go out of state. Yeah..that's unreal.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

IMO, it's a lot easier to move out of state for grad school and internship and try to come back for post doc or a job. Post docs and jobs care about training and prior experience, they don't care that you didn't want to leave NYC. To have the best chance of getting the ultimate job that you want, you need to pursue training that will make you competitive for it, wherever that may be. For instance, you mentioned the VA--in some places, you can get a VA job without prior VA experience, but I'm guessing that NYC isn't one of them. The issue, is of course, it takes years of delayed gratification. I feel the need to mention that I didn't acquire any debt throughout my schooling or training, and I'm still struggling financially (as I mentioned above, moving cross-country several times added up, and a lot of training positions don't pay a living wage for certain cities).

The thing to keep in mind is that everyone tends to apply cross country for internship, and at least to 15 sites. People who rank NYC sites highly may not match to them. In this field, there's a risk of not getting an APA internship at all, let alone getting one in the exact metropolitan area that you want. Geographical desirability plays a role but every single APA site is competitive regardless of location, even in the ones in the middle of nowhere. I applied to one place close to my home state, in what you'd consider flyover country, and I didn't even get an interview there. Later, I did get a job interview there because I had the experience that they wanted--which I acquired through my training at other sites. Is it completely ridiculous that internship is so competitive? Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact.

By the way, internship counts for some of your licensure hours (well, at least in the states I've lived in), but only about half of them.

Thanks for all your feedback, it's really helpful. And with more research yeah, it's half the hours in NYS too apparently.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

Again, you're completely missing the point. It doesn't matter what I think about you. What is important is how you come across to supervisors and patients, and your behavior here is throwing up huge red flags.

This, combined with your dearth of knowledge about basic things like publication, strongly indicate that you aren't ready for doctoral training.

The OP likely will never reach the point of coming across in this manner to supervisors or patients, as any glimmer of this kind of attitude during a grad school interview will likely torpedo the process right then and there, even for programs in NYC. And I am saying this AS A NEW YORKER. As in Manhattan. But, I have also trained and lived in the midwest, southeast, and other northeastern states that were not NY. I moved back here to NYC several years ago, where I now get to hire life-long New Yorkers who never left, at wages that are far less than they could make elsewhere, but they are willing to accept such crumbs because they can't fathom the idea of being more than a 20 min train ride from whatever it is they can't seem to live without for any amount of time.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

The head of the program got back to me with a list of all the internship placement sites for the last 3 years, and all are in the New York area besides placements in: DC, u Penn, Harvard, & yale. Which are all satisfying placements to me ! So that's something

 

[Justanothergrad]

The head of the program got back to me with a list of all the internship placement sites for the last 3 years, and all are in the New York area besides placements in: DC, u Penn, Harvard, & yale. Which are all satisfying placements to me ! So that's something

You may want to ask for specifics on those extremely suspect statistics.A program that consistently fails to match 1/3rd of it's applicants for the past 10 years is not a program that consistently places folks at good internship sites (data on their website). The two things are related, unsurprisingly. You keep ignoring thematic advice people give you in this thread and looking for others to offer you information that is consistent with what you want to hear. This is not a good practice.

You may want to review who has actually been at Yale... According to Yale. If you see a theme about the programs being funded PhD programs housed in traditional programs... there is a reason.
Current Fellows & Alumni > Psychology Section | Psychiatry | Yale School of Medicine

 

[Lurking Oracle]

You just can't help yourself, huh?

Not only could the OP not help herself, but she is WRONG. New York and South Dakota are the only states in the US that do NOT require any continuing education for psychologists. I would hardly call that among the highest of requirements... I am licensed in five states, and only in New York have I not needed to concern myself with C.E. I still do, of course, but it is not because NY or New Yorkers somehow set the highest standard, as the OP implies (well, actually flat-out states).

 

[Lurking Oracle]

As for post doc, I actually don't know much about that. Isn't that primarily for those that plan to go exclusively into academia ?
In NY I'm pretty sure there's no post doc hours for licensing. iirc, your hours are all gained in your PhD program/internship here. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I just never heard of anyone going into a post doc in NY for clinical hours.

WRONG. Over 25 years ago, NY did not require postdoc hours for psychology licensure. That changed in 1992. The following is copied and pasted from the NYS psychology licensing web site, in reference to the supervised hours requirement: "If you received a doctoral degree on or after October 1, 1992, one of the two years, consisting of 1750 clock hours, must be done after the date your institution has determined that you completed all doctoral degree requirements, including the dissertation." I work, supervise and hire psychologists in NYC. This is the reality of things.

 

[futureapppsy2]

To echo what everyone else has said, if you refuse to relocate, you're going to have an extremely hard time in this field. I only know of *one* person who did what you want to do, and it involved commuting approximately 3 hours each way for internship. And she considered herself extremely lucky.

Also, the university in Salt Lake City has a name.

 

[Temperance]

It's not that I was weary of the cost of applications, I literally could not afford to apply to any more/travel to any more out of state locations. You say that it's only a few grand, but I didn't have that.

The tuition alone for attending Adelphi full-time for three years and part-time for the fourth year -- per their website -- is $149,880. At 6.8% interest, you will be paying back $1,725 per month on a 10-year repayment plan or $1,040 per month on a 25-year repayment plan. You would need to make at least $124,833 annually to repay the loan comfortably on the 25-year plan. The average base pay for clinical psychologists in New York City is $90,981, according to Glassdoor. None of these calculations have factored additional loans for university fees, health insurance, textbooks, conferences, or other incidental expenses. Since you mentioned planning on working to cover living expenses, I haven't included that in the calculations, either.

Will you be able to afford to do any of the things that you would like to do once you graduate? Will you be able to retire eventually?

 

[Lurking Oracle]

Well, that's a response..... I really don't know where to even start...

I would suggest not even trying to start to respond. I think the psychologists here would agree that doing so would be futile... "Class traitor"? Wow. Just wow.

 

[Lurking Oracle]

There are a lot of paid research coordinator positions in the NYC area, but I really don't know if that offers opportunity to be included in the publications ? I mean they're pretty well paying, 50k for some that I saw. But I don't know if it's like glorified lab manager and if you'd actually get any authorship. NYC from what I've seen so far, is all about building your career off the backs of others that don't get authorship lol. Very very few MA students and no undergrads have publications or authorship until phd level here from what I've seen.

This is where asking direct questions during the interview is critical. There are research coordinator positions in NYC that do allow opportunities for an RC to be a co-author. I have had RCs as first authors when they have developed ideas of their own that utilized my data. I am not alone in this practice in NYC (or elsewhere). Other researchers may have different policies and practices. In any serious interview, you should hopefully be asked "Do you have any questions about this position?" That is when you should, politely but directly, ask about opportunities to contribute as an author on peer-reviewed publications.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

You may want to ask for specifics on those extremely suspect statistics.A program that consistently fails to match 1/3rd of it's applicants for the past 10 years is not a program that consistently places folks at good internship sites (data on their website). The two things are related, unsurprisingly. You keep ignoring thematic advice people give you in this thread and looking for others to offer you information that is consistent with what you want to hear. This is not a good practice.

You may want to review who has actually been at Yale... According to Yale. If you see a theme about the programs being funded PhD programs housed in traditional programs... there is a reason.
Current Fellows & Alumni > Psychology Section | Psychiatry | Yale School of Medicine

The match rate has gone up though the past few years. I'm not talking about people who went to yale phd program.., im talking about a medical center associated with yale is 1 of the internship match locations. There are loads in NY as well. I'm not copying and pasting what they sent me.

I'm not just listening to what I want to hear. Stop picking on me. You insulted me first by calling me a "typical snotty new Yorker" before I said anything nasty to you or made a joke about "local yokels". That was after u made ur little comments. And every post of yours contains a dig. But I serve a little tude back to you and it's a catastrophe. Like I said if you can't contribute to me without just taking digs, feel free to get off this post. I am having no problem interacting with everyone else on this thread whose not speaking to me in condescending ways and taking little digs in every post.

 

[Justanothergrad]

The match rate has gone up though the past few years. I'm not talking about people who went to yale phd program.., im talking about a medical center associated with yale is 1 of the internship match locations. There are loads in NY as well. I'm not copying and pasting what they sent me.

I'm not just listening to what I want to hear. Stop picking on me. You insulted me first by calling me a "typical snotty new Yorker" before I said anything nasty to you or made a joke about "local yokels". That was after u made ur little comments. And every post of yours contains a dig. But I serve a little tude back to you and it's a catastrophe. Like I said if you can't contribute to me without just taking digs, feel free to get off this post. I am having no problem interacting with everyone else on this thread whose not speaking to me in condescending ways and taking little digs in every post.

That would be the link I just gave you.Also. Aside from last year, their match rate has stayed at around 70% for the last 7 or 8 years.

Oh- we're going back to this? May whatever god they believe in have mercy on any advisor you work with.You can't even even use information posted that is useful to you (i.e., your program has not had someone at Yale despite claiming that, according to you) without wanting to get into an argument. It makes me about 75% convinced you're just here to troll.

Again, the link I just gave you has a list of Yale-matched fellows for the last several years and the programs they came from.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

The tuition alone for attending Adelphi full-time for three years and part-time for the fourth year -- per their website -- is $149,880. At 6.8% interest, you will be paying back $1,725 per month on a 10-year repayment plan or $1,040 per month on a 25-year repayment plan. You would need to make at least $124,833 annually to repay the loan comfortably on the 25-year plan. The average base pay for clinical psychologists in New York City is $90,981, according to Glassdoor. None of these calculations have factored additional loans for university fees, health insurance, textbooks, conferences, or other incidental expenses. Since you mentioned planning on working to cover living expenses, I haven't included that in the calculations, either.

Will you be able to afford to do any of the things that you would like to do once you graduate? Will you be able to retire eventually?

I would plan to be on the income based repayment plans, which I am already on!

I might also look into those public service loan repayment options as there are some clinical positions that offer that such as some VA hospitals.

Do psychologists and professors even retire ? Lol. Seems like plenty of the ones I see do it well into typical retirement years.

I don't plan on paying for my children's education's. I've talked to my partner and he's not to expect me to contribute much to a mortgage.

Although I'm not going into this expecting to be rich or anything, I would still like to be comfortable and at least middle class/upper mid if possible.
For me it's sort of like , ok finish with 200k debt with the degree. Be able to practice, teach in unis (I'm fine with adjunct or associate, I don't need a TT or really want it), maybe do some research and at minimum be able to contribute case study or clinical qual data. Continue on the dream I've been working towards.
OR
Call it quits not, and my next goal would be education for English or social work. I would probably finish that with 100k I reckon because I already have UG and MA debt, and for the few more years for school would estimate max 30k more ?

So which option is "better"?
Which would award me with the lifestyle and fulfilment I want ?
200k debt and psychologist
Or
100k social work or teacher

I think I would be equally fulfilled in either, and right now I'm leaning more towards education being more fulfilling than social work ? (I wish I could both see patients and teach in HS. That would be an ideal alternative and I would like that way more than academia. But you can't do education and training for both of those at once lol)

From what the consensus is here on this thread, the norm outside this area is relocating a lot for this field. I'm not ok with having to move 4 times so I'm not going to do that. So I don't think I will be applying to other programs again, as I was previously under the assumption you would just do 1 move for your doctoral program and training for licensure.

(As for post doc hour thing. I was confused with the fact that the pre doc is half the hours for licensing. The way it was being phrased here/I interpreted, made it seem like the internship didn't count for any hours for licensing. And also I just haven't heard too many people talk about post docs, probably becuase I don't know anyone that far ahead yet. My friends colleagues whatever that I know were only at the internship match phase..all of who stayed in NYC for internship match from NYC doctoral prorams)

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

.