Adelphi Offer, Worth the Debt?

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Hello every one.

I was offered a spot at Adelphi today with a guaranteed 15k for 4 years. I will probably see what feathers I can ruffle for more funding and pursue TA/teaching fellowship.


I just want to know if you all think it's worth it to accept the Adelphi Offer with a 15k scholarship, continue to take out loans, waitress to pay my rent/living expenses, and get my PhD. I can keep living where I am and I might not even have to get a car (I've never felt I could afford one and always rely on the public transport. I moved walkin distance to the LIRR.) My rent is very cheap for the new York area and is all inclusive. I know classes for Adelphi are only 2-3 days a week and my lab meeting would be on 1 of those days..so I think it won't be as time consuming as my experience at the new school was and despite that I was able to make 26k last year waitressing and lived pretty comfortably while in school. That was the most I ever made and the year before I made less than 20k with the same living expenses which was harder but manageable. (Waitressing is good because you get a free meal at work and sometimes leftovers lolol)

Or should I take my chances, reject the offer, and hope to get into a fully funded program next year? I'm scared about that since I didn't even get another interview invocation this time around and still have no publications, and stopped going to my lab at the new school after graduation.

I sort of didn't expect to get in at this point. I thought I'd have to give up my hopes and dreams for this career and to move into another area. I thought maybe I'd apply 1 last time, or switch into education.
Before psychology I wanted to be a writer and an English teacher. I thought maybe I'd try that now if this isn't working out for me. That's where my mind was and this offer sort of surprised me. But that would still be more loans and back tracking almost anyways. Waa also thinking I could try to write some books I've been thinking about since my BA. Who knows, jk Rowling made it big from nothing lol. I'd be happy with a fraction of that.

Would just like some feedback from people here on my situation, I'm lost. I don't know anyone with a college degree besides my classmates. And the ones I've talked to are either very wealthy, or worse off in debt than I and leaving the field..

My friends and family at this point feel for me. They want me to be happy and do my best, and have watched me struggle and worked hard towards this. They don't want to see me lose my dream but they don't want to see me ruin myself for it. They really have nothing to offer me advice wise, they'e even more in the dark than I.

I would really appreciate some feedback from you all on this page as I have no where else to turn really for advice.

I've tried to be smart with my debt. I have a hard rule to never take out loans for living expenses and I would rather work at night at a restaurant til 2am, after being at the clinic in the morning, and commute 6 hours to make it happen (yes this was my Fridays for about 6 months once. 2 hours to the clinic on train, subway, and bus, 2 hours to work, and then roughly 2 hours home. Then wake up on Saturday for brunch service!) So I'm not a reckless poor person like a lot of posts I've seen in the thread sort of judge people with high student loan debt.. I would maintain that rule of no loans for living expenses if I accept the phd offer at Adelphi..and I think I've done ok with keeping my total debt below 100k for living in and attending private unis in NYC the whole time.

I just at this point don't know if or when I should call it quits with the Debt in mind, and if I should risk an offer with debt for a shot at fully funded that I might never get, and then I'm **** out of luck with 2 years wasted and no PhD program..


(Sorry for any typos, I'm typing from my phone.
And for the long post, I just wanted to share all the relevant info so you guys are fully informed to give me the best advice or input)

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[Justanothergrad]

No- it's not worth it, for many reasons. I'll answer the question you asked about the debt though. Getting 45k covers "1/3 the cost of tuition" (per their website) and that doesn't include living expenses. If you are paying 30k a year in tuition + living expenses for 4 years, you will EASILY and without any doubt come out with 160k more in debt. A better gauge of how much (I expect closer to 200+ is typical) is whatever the program debt average is; I'm sure they don't volunteer that information, but expect it to be substantial. Either way, this is a bad plan. It's also not a good school, but the debt alone should make you reconsider it even if it were great. If I were you, I would formulate plans with a zero-debt requirement, but I'm very debt adverse because I didn't want to be shackled by it moving forward in my career. This is generally the advice you'll get here. It's the same advice in most every "I want to attend X bad PsyD program thread".

It's not your scores that are keeping you from programs most likely, you have less research experience at a level I would expect. With a masters, I would expect that you have some presentations and potentially (hopefully/probably to be competitive) a publication or two as well. This is expected because that type of input into research is consistent with your developmental level. Many undergrads are coming straight after having worked in a lab and have this. Not having this makes you less competitive. There are a lot of things you can do to strategically improve your chances at this point because none of the rest of what you said makes you an instant reject, but you NEED to develop research products to be competitive. We want this of undergrads. We especially want it from graduate students. Here are some other things too. Expand yourself geographically and consider 'fly over country' for less competitive programs. Explore presenting and publishing now (your thesis would be a good place to start as would contacting your advisor from your MA to discuss work you did with them/how you could help given your goals). If you aren't producing products, you are not doing the things you need to do in order to maximize your competitiveness and being 'in a lab' is not sufficient. Get a mid-tier job in the field (depending on what your MA is in/license eligibility) to help paydown some debt with as much haste as you can. This gives you experience but also (and more importantly to me) is reducing that debt.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

No- it's not worth it, for many reasons. I'll answer the question you asked about the debt though. Getting 45k covers "1/3 the cost of tuition" (per their website) and that doesn't include living expenses. If you are paying 30k a year in tuition + living expenses for 4 years, you will EASILY and without any doubt come out with 160k more in debt. A better gauge of how much (I expect closer to 200+ is typical) is whatever the program debt average is; I'm sure they don't volunteer that information, but expect it to be substantial. Either way, this is a bad plan. It's also not a good school, but the debt alone should make you reconsider it even if it were great.

It's not your scores that are keeping you from programs most likely, you have less research experience at a level I would expect. With a masters, I would expect that you have some presentations and potentially (hopefully/probably to be competitive) a publication or two as well. This is expected because that type of input into research is consistent with your developmental level. Many undergrads are coming straight after having worked in a lab and have this. Not having this makes you less competitive. There are a lot of things you can do to strategically improve your chances at this point because none of the rest of what you said makes you an instant reject, but you NEED to develop research products to be competitive. We want this of undergrads. We especially want it from graduate students. Here are some other things too.

Expand yourself geographically and consider 'fly over country' for less competitive programs. Explore presenting and publishing now (your thesis would be a good place to start as would contacting your advisor from your MA to discuss work you did with them/how you could help given your goals). If you aren't producing products, you are not doing the things you need to do in order to maximize your competitiveness and being 'in a lab' is not sufficient. Get a mid-tier job in the field (depending on what your MA is in/license eligibility) to help paydown some debt with as much haste as you can. This gives you experience but also (and more importantly to me) is reducing that debt.

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't take out loans for loving expenses but either way you're right, it's a lot more debt. I have the 15k now, might be able to get teaching fellowship 2nd year, but it's still a lot more.

I guess for me my biggest fear is turning down this offer even if it's crappy and never getting another one :/
I don't know if I'd rather have the extra Debt and doctorate than no doctorate and still undergrad/MA debt.
And if I switch careers now, that would still be more debt anyway !

As for a job in the field, I was thinking had i not gotten in, of applying to case management positions or paid research positions in nyc and do that while I try to apply elsewhere.

I mean at this point though it's not like I have much time to get a publication or more conference presentations between now and the next applicatipn cycle so how likely am I to get into fully funded spots ? Idk probably not very with how this app cycle went :/

As for my area, half the schools I applied to were outside of NY. I just could never live in a place like Kansas, or the south. I need something with a little something.. if I'm moving I need to be either near the ocean, or mountains I can ski. I may be a poor ass bitch with loads of debt but I have some quality of life needs as a native new Yorker lol..Those are seasons, and 1 seasonal activity (beach or skiing, preferably both. I could probably settle for hiking). I can't do year round heat either, it makes me crazy. I can barely handle the 3 months of heat we get here and it's only ok because of the beach.

But that's why I applied to Utah and Colorado. Virginia I honestly probably would have never lived in even if I got into George mason.
Other states I would apply to are Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, Vermont, and maybe Pennsylvania. And that's only because I could still go home to new York to see friends and family occasionally, and at least I could do something basic like horseback riding and have seasons still..its not my top choice state though, but I could probably make it work.
Honestly those are the only other places I'd live if I left new York. I've researched other schools in other states and decided against applying cause there's no way I'd live there.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Also, on my interview day at Adelphi I decided I wasn't going to go there because of the funding and it was stupid to take out more debt .

Since then I've been feeling depressed and hopeless, like I'll never get it. Like I put 77k in debt already on a dream that's not happening.

I thought about applying to some FT work in the field, giving apps 1 last go, and that would be it.

Then I started to think about going back to school for education, become an English teacher, and try to write books like I wanted to before I started pursuing psych. I felt hopeful again for the first time since I realized Adelphi has garbage funding.

Then I got this offer I wasn't really expecting and I'm 2nd guessing everything because my confidence is low, my debt is already high and pursuing something else would mean more debt anyways, and my life wouldn't have to change at all with this (plus research faculty match is really good and it' an appealing program to me as someone psychodynamic who wants to pursue psychoanalytic training later on down the line)
That damn cost though. Ugh.

 

[MAClinician]

That's unfortunate the lab at New School didn't encourage or support masters students with presenting or publishing research. I'll be honest, your plan to waitress if you go to Adelphi may not be realistic. Doctoral programs are time intensive. Class work, research, practicums in the later years can take up the majority of your time. A good training program will keep you plenty busy. You are not in an easy position right now.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Thanks for the reply. I wouldn't take out loans for loving expenses but either way you're right, it's a lot more debt. I have the 15k now, might be able to get teaching fellowship 2nd year, but it's still a lot more.

As for experience, I have 3 years research lab experience plus 1 year clinical. And my lab experience at the ma was clinical redearch, and all years included fieldwork in NYC with underprivileged communities (preschools, middle schools, and hospitals). So it's not like I just sat around in a classroom doing lit review like a lot of undergrads lol. So it was a bit frustating I didn't get more interviews to me and I'm really not feeling confident at this point like I was last year.

Personal research experience, I have 1 conference presentation and that's it. I have 2 MA theses, 1 with data I collected and 1 with lab data. My lab at the new school was weird..they don't encourage or want MA students to publish or do research and only spent time in the student projects once those students were admitted to their phd program. I don't think they would want me to publish that data since I'm not a doctoral student there and they probably wouldn't help me do it.

The other data and thesis I did under the advisement of another professor there for a research methods class. She really emphasized it was important we have some data we could use to present or publish, but after the class wasn't helpful or responsive on how I could go about publication.

I mean. I don't know how at all. How do you know when journals are accepting? How do you submit ? Like I literally have no idea no one has ever told me any practical info on it.

I guess for me my biggest fear is turning down this offer even if it's crappy and never getting another one :/
I don't know if I'd rather have the extra Debt and doctorate than no doctorate and still undergrad/MA debt.
And if I switch careers now, that would still be more debt anyway !

As for a job in the field, I was thinking had i not gotten in, of applying to case management positions or paid research positions in nyc and do that while I try to apply elsewhere.

I mean at this point though it's not like I have much time to get a publication or more conference presentations between now and the next applicatipn cycle so how likely am I to get into fully funded spots ? Idk probably not very with how this app cycle went :/

As for my area, half the schools I applied to were outside of NY. I just could never live in a place like Kansas, or the south. I need something with a little something.. if I'm moving I need to be either near the ocean, or mountains I can ski. I may be a poor ass bitch with loads of debt but I have some quality of life needs as a native new Yorker lol..Those are seasons, and 1 seasonal activity (beach or skiing, preferably both. I could probably settle for hiking). I can't do year round heat either, it makes me crazy. I can barely handle the 3 months of heat we get here and it's only ok because of the beach.

But that's why I applied to Utah and Colorado. Virginia I honestly probably would have never lived in even if I got into George mason.
Other states I would apply to are Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, Vermont, and maybe Pennsylvania. And that's only because I could still go home to new York to see friends and family occasionally, and at least I could do something basic like horseback riding and have seasons still..its not my top choice state though, but I could probably make it work.
Honestly those are the only other places I'd live if I left new York. I've researched other schools in other states and decided against applying cause there's no way I'd live there.

I understand your perspective, but here is the reality.

1. Working in a lab alone is not a huge deal for research experience and doing a thesis isn't anything I care about as someone who reviews applications. It doesn't matter that you did those things if you can't close the deal and produce products. If you have not had the mentorship about how to submit an article (for instance) this suggests that your experience there was not at the level you need. Journals are always accepting. You can read the scope and aims of the journal and submit. Right or wrong, when I hear this level of depth I worry that your research training is not very strong and that your capacity to design, analyze, and write up what you find is not there. Right now, I am also making assumptions about the type of conference you presented (I am somewhat skeptical it was a major national conference and expect it was a regional or state one). I suspect that your letters can't make you sound like a competitive researcher either, since you haven't had that experience. It sounds lack poor/lack of mentoring partly. It also sounds like you did not know what you needed to do/seek out intentionally to make yourself competitive. Either way, this shortage of deeper research is a problem and one that will continue to cause you problems at funded programs, particularly in desirable areas..

2. If you want to live at the mountains, beach, or near a ski resort thats a life choice you get to make. Making that choice may result in you not getting in to a funded program because you are not competitive for where you want to live. Applying "outside of NY" isn't a big deal- there are tons of competitive programs in other areas that are attractive. Colorado, for instance, is a very attractive area and has a great reputation. So is SLC and Utah is a top notch program. You get to make the choice of what states you want to live it, but this is the perspective of someone who is less likely to be successful in getting into a funded program. It always sounds snotty every time I hear a New Yorker say things like that (or anyone, but I've heard lots of New Yorkers say it). If your biggest fear is not being able to achieve your dream, you may want to act like it.

3. Having an outside job with enough hours to support yourself while in graduate school is not realistic for full time doctoral study.

 

[Temperance]

I mean. I don't know how at all. How do you know when journals are accepting? How do you submit ? Like I literally have no idea no one has ever told me any practical info on it.

I guess for me my biggest fear is turning down this offer even if it's crappy and never getting another one :/
I don't know if I'd rather have the extra Debt and doctorate than no doctorate and still undergrad/MA debt.
And if I switch careers now, that would still be more debt anyway !

As for a job in the field, I was thinking had i not gotten in, of applying to case management positions or paid research positions in nyc and do that while I try to apply elsewhere.

I mean at this point though it's not like I have much time to get a publication or more conference presentations between now and the next applicatipn cycle so how likely am I to get into fully funded spots ? Idk probably not very with how this app cycle went :/

Should you choose to try again next application cycle, there are things that you can do starting right now to get research products. If you can land a paid research position where you have the possibility of giving conference presentations or publishing manuscripts, then that is your best option; however, to be blunt, these positions are competitive and tend to go to people with preexisting research experience. Alternatively, you could work in a different job and volunteer at a research lab, but this time you need to focus on being proactive with independent projects using your lab's data -- if allowed, and don't be afraid to ask if you can do this before committing to a lab -- so that you can submit to conferences and write manuscripts. Check the submission deadlines for regional and national conferences (e.g., Eastern Psychological Association, American Psychological Association, Association for Psychological Science) as well as any specialized conferences in your research area of interest (e.g., American Association of Suicidology for self-injurious behaviors), and make a point of submitting to them with the help of your mentor.

As for my area, half the schools I applied to were outside of NY. I just could never live in a place like Kansas, or the south. I need something with a little something.. if I'm moving I need to be either near the ocean, or mountains I can ski. I may be a poor ass bitch with loads of debt but I have some quality of life needs as a native new Yorker lol..Those are seasons, and 1 seasonal activity (beach or skiing, preferably both. I could probably settle for hiking). I can't do year round heat either, it makes me crazy. I can barely handle the 3 months of heat we get here and it's only ok because of the beach.

But that's why I applied to Utah and Colorado. Virginia I honestly probably would have never lived in even if I got into George mason.
Other states I would apply to are Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, Vermont, and maybe Pennsylvania. And that's only because I could still go home to new York to see friends and family occasionally, and at least I could do something basic like horseback riding and have seasons still..its not my top choice state though, but I could probably make it work.
Honestly those are the only other places I'd live if I left new York. I've researched other schools in other states and decided against applying cause there's no way I'd live there.

In defense of George Mason University, Fairfax is within the DC metropolitan area. Washington, DC is pretty awesome, IMO.

That said, while I can understand the desire to be in an area with activities, it's difficult because everyone else wants to do that, too, making programs in such areas highly competitive. Besides, you will likely not have too much time to do stuff as a doctoral student, and you're there for only 5-6 years before you leave for internship and the rest of your career. Weigh how important these things are with how important it is to achieve your goals.

 

[WisNeuro]

That said, while I can understand the desire to be in an area with activities, it's difficult because everyone else wants to do that, too, making programs in such areas highly competitive. Besides, you will likely not have too much time to do stuff as a doctoral student, and you're there for only 5-6 years before you leave for internship and the rest of your career. Weigh how important these things are with how important it is to achieve your goals.

I ended up in a Midwestern city that I never really imagined living, though I'd just tough it out for grad school. I ended up absolutely loving living there. People who restrict themselves geographically are doing themselves a huge disservice and needlessly limiting their chances of acceptance. Look for good fit and an open mind and you'll make it work. Way too many people life long dreams who attach way too many strings to the pursuit of said dreams.

 

[Justanothergrad]

I ended up in a Midwestern city that I never really imagined living, though I'd just tough it out for grad school. I ended up absolutely loving living there. People who restrict themselves geographically are doing themselves a huge disservice and needlessly limiting their chances of acceptance. Look for good fit and an open mind and you'll make it work. Way too many people life long dreams who attach way too many strings to the pursuit of said dreams.

Yup. Same thing happened for me and numerous colleagues. Had some move away to other parts of the country and more than a few are actively looking to head back. I had to leave where I was, but would have happily stayed. It was tempting since I had an offer from a VA doing assessment work and research, but I wanted to be an academic.

 

[mlwg1]

I mean. I don't know how at all. How do you know when journals are accepting? How do you submit ? Like I literally have no idea no one has ever told me any practical info on it.

An important question to ask yourself is, do you actually want to work in research? Why are you pursuing a PhD at all? After 10 years seeking training in this field, it surprises me that you never took the initiative to find the answers to the above questions on your own. Even reading a scholarly journal article at some point in life would shed some light on how article submission works. Being interested in research, during training I was (and now fortunately/unfortunately still am) OBSESSED with generating original research and publishing. This is a field that takes a lot of self-starting and independent work.

Have you considered being a master’s level therapist? And remember, there’s nothing wrong with making a change and switching things up, whether you decide to be a writer or whatever else. Life’s too short, sunk cost fallacy, etc. etc.

 

[Justanothergrad]

An important question to ask yourself is, do you actually want to work in research? Why are you pursuing a PhD at all? After 10 years seeking training in this field, it surprises me that you never took the initiative to find the answers to the above questions on your own. Even reading a scholarly journal article at some point in life would shed some light on how article submission works. Being interested in research, during training I was (and now fortunately/unfortunately still am) OBSESSED with generating original research and publishing. This is a field that takes a lot of self-starting and independent work.

Have you considered being a master’s level therapist? And remember, there’s nothing wrong with making a change and switching things up, whether you decide to be a writer or whatever else. Life’s too short, sunk cost fallacy, etc. etc.

While I agree with much of what you said, this is also a bit misleading as PhD does not mean research-involved career. Quite the opposite in fact. I just wanted to clarify that so as not to provide any ammo to reinforce a misconception that isn't grounded in facts.

 

[mlwg1]

Oh, certainly. The data clearly bear out that most PhDs do clinical work and receive more clinical training hours than PsyDs, as mentioned many times throughout this forum.

I just tend to recommend that folks with primarily clinical interests seriously consider a master’s because of the training/job environment these days. The idea being, why put it in the extra years if you can obtain a similar outcome with less time and debt. Also, even if you don’t go into a research career, reputable PhD programs will involve a good amount of research during training.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

And when I say working towards it for 10 years, I mean since i,was 16 and decided I was going to apply to college as a psych major and wanted to be a psychologist.

I do like an enjoy research, especially clinical research.

I have another project I could probably submit but like I said, I've just never had anyone tell me how.. I didn't end up submitting to conferences after completing my project because I also didn't have mentorship for that, cost, and honestly time. It was 1 of those things I know I should do but slipped by. Not to mention it's expensive. I couldn't afford to just fly off to other states and stay for a weekend. And when I looked for things close enough I could do; Pennsylvania, new York, etc; it was already too late to submit. I feel like I'm sort of in this boat now again, where it's too late to get another conference in before a new app cycle..

I didn't have research experience as an under grad because no one told me I needed it until my senior year, and there wasn't a big research emphasis at my school. That's why I spent a year gaining research experience after before starting my masters.

As for my career , I do want to primarily be a clinician. But I would also like to teach and do research.

As for moving, I don't think people who aren't from a place like long island/new York understand. I'm willing to move but not to the middle of no where. I know I wouldn't make it. And most programs gear you towards gaining licensing in the state anyways from what I understand? Unless you're going to be purely academic, isn't the implication mostly you'll get licensed and practice where you earned your PhD ?? Due to the differences in requirements state to state ? So I want to live in a state I won't be miserable in.
I mean I'm getting there with new York but there's at least things to do , even if you'e pissed about the COL. I look very forward to the day I can go to a cool speakeasy, nice restaurant, the botanical gardens, the beach, a winery, skiing; after working my butt off. If my reward is the 1 dive bar in town, throwing darts with the local yokels; I don't think I'll make it through the program.
When it comes down to it, I'd honestly rather be in hospitality/service industry in New York or at a ski mountain than a doctor in Kansas to be honest lol. Just to give an idea of how important where I live is.. I half wish no one put in my head all these big dreams. Like I was worth something more than the working class. I mean I am. I'm smart, dedicated, great with people, especially clients. But I like the service industry a lot I could have just done that with no debt and worked myself up to management, tried to go partner somewhere if I'm lucky. I could have gotten bigger promotions than I had already had I not been going to school. This whole psychologist thing seems like such a crapshoot and money dump at this point. It's too elitist because of the rich academic students->faculty. I'm feeling very tired of the whole thing. There isn't enough done in the field to help first gen college students or to promote social mobility.

But anyways like I said, I'm willing to go to a fair amount outside the new York area..at this point. I just don't know if I can get into one of those fully funded programs.. I was surprised I didn't get an interview at at least 1 of the schools I applied to outside new York. I contacted all the faculty matches and they expressed interest, 1 even sent me some articles and such. I thought the experience I had while not having a publication but working with the populations I have and gaining clinical, made me competitive. I guess not.

As for Adelphi, I think I'm going to ask how much the teaching fellowship funding is. I'm going to pursue that if I go. Then do training your 1st year and then you can start teaching and getting extra funding from that after year 2.. Then on my interview the individual interviewee gave me some names and avenues to petition for some more funding that she said weren't necessarily "public". I did that at the new school and ended up with 50% funding when I was supposed to get 0.
So I think that I definitely need to get more information on the teaching funding before i make a final decision. (Which i need to do by Monday ugh!)

But doing the math though, just a grad is right. It's ridiculous. The new school I thought was expensive and this is 2-3x as much. Also apparently every one who applied to the new school phd this cycle got in. I guess i was just in the wrong cycle. Although my mentors made me miserable, so I'm glad Im not there any more.

It's just a shame because the program fit at Adelphi is perfect for me in every way. There is no downside to me but cost.
Anyone want to fund me lmao?

I did the math. It would be 120k more debt on top of the 77k i have now. That would put me at like 200k total debt. That's unreasonable. Even if I go back to school for something else I won't have debt like that.
Will the pay off be worth it ? As a psychologist who wants to teach and do research, will I make enough to pay it off ? I mean obviously I can survive off very little, I've been doing it my whole life. I just wonder if at the end of the day it would still be worth it but it's hard to imagine it would be.
Isn't average starting salary for a psychologist in New York 100k? If I continue to live at the budget i have been (around 25k before taxes a year, what I made last year working and living in long island and I felt very comfortable), I could put literally 75k towards paying my loans off a year. And then from then on out I have the doctoral salary, and the job doing what I want.
And there is always the income based repayment. I'm on that now. It adjusts your loan payment to be a percentage of your income, and if your income is a certain percentage of your total student loan amount, your payment gets set to 0 but still counts as a "payment". If after 20 years of being on this plan, the remaining debt will be forgiven, regardless of how much you have paid.
So I mean with that sort of debt I'm sure that I would qualify for IBR my whole life and can just sort of do the bare minimum for the loan repayment, just to keep my credit score up..

It's a lot to consider really. Had I gotten a full funding offer at Colorado or SLC, id have had my bags packed. But I didn't so here we are.

(I apologize again for typos and like the way I'm phrasing. On my phone. Not as well written as it would b from the computer )

 

[psychrat]

I agree with what others said.

I also received my research MA at the New School and took out some loans for tuition (that was years ago and I heard it is even more pricey now). I moved out west for a university based PhD program. There is no way I would pay for Adelphi (or any private school). It is expensive and IMO not worth it. If you really want a clinical PhD, I would wait another year and apply more broadly in terms of location. NYC schools tend to be pricey. When I was at the New School it was 1500/ per credit-- that makes me cringe when I think of it.

 

[psychrat]

Also, whoever told you that schools prepare you for licensure where they are located is wrong. I went to school in a medium size college town out west and am now licensed in NY and NJ soon. All of may cohort members were from large cities originally and most moved back to large cities.

 

[WisNeuro]

I look very forward to the day I can go to a cool speakeasy, nice restaurant, the botanical gardens, the beach, a winery, skiing; after working my butt off. If my reward is the 1 dive bar in town, throwing darts with the local yokels; I don't think I'll make it through the program.

I live in a medium to large Midwestern city and can do all of these things, depending on the season. The farthest of these options is 20 minutes away. 4 of those options are within 10 minutes. In the end, you need to do you, but you'd be surprised at what's actually out there instead of writing it off without even having experienced it.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

I live in a medium to large Midwestern city and can do all of these things, depending on the season. The farthest of these options is 20 minutes away. 4 of those options are within 10 minutes. In the end, you need to do you, but you'd be surprised at what's actually out there instead of writing it off without even having experienced it.

That's fair enough. I think there is more out there than I realize. I'm actually visiting my boyfriend's parents in PA right now, they moved here last summer. We went into a cool little town yesterday that had all these cool shops and a few cool restaurants. There's even some skiing nearby which I didn't know PA had, and it's beautiful. So I guess I just need to be less afraid of stepping out of my comfort zone and realize there is a world outside of big mountain towns and the north east lol.

I guess I'm just scared that if I turn this down I won't get another chance.

At this point idk what would have been worse. The absolute destruction of my confidence getting rejected from Adelphi, or just not having to have to deal with the weight of regret and 2nd guessing if I turn it down.

Why does my perfect fit program have to be a completely ridiculously over priced one
It's really so unfair how these programs in New York get away with not having full funded because it's new York and they'll just get away with being elitist and making a profit, and all the kids who don't come from wealth are up ****s creek with no paddle.
Honestly I am getting fed up with new York for that reason. In my rejection depression haze this month I thought maybe I'll just give it all up, move in with his parents, I'll try and write the books I've been wanting to write since forever, and that'll be that.
It's just hard I feel like I've been working so hard to do this and be something and it's just not working out. Even though I tried my best and tried to do everything everyone told me I should do.

 

[PsyDuck90]

States do vary on licensing hours, so you just have to look at each state licensing board and see how many hours you need. A lot of the variation comes from post-doctoral hours. APA accredited internships should provide you with the same (or at least similar) number of clinical hours regardless of what state you're doing it in. Also, I don't have hard numbers, but it seems that relocation is par for the course in clinical psychology. Many people relocate for grad school, then again for internship, and again for post doc.

Regarding your crack about "local yokels," most of these universities in fly-over country are state schools, meaning they typically have a high concentration of educated people and things such as hip restaurants and museums and the like readily available if you do find the time to go out and do these things.

Lastly, a quick Google search for starting salaries in NYC for clinical psychologists can range anywhere from $50k-$90k. You should probably plan for the low end. And even if you do your degree at Adelphi, the amount of competition for APA accredited internships in NYC is going to increase the likelihood that you may do your internship elsewhere anyway, as you've got the entire country competing for spots in the NYC metro area. Then, you've still got all of that competition for jobs in a heavily saturated city full of psychologists. When I was in school, I had at least 6 different faculty members who had separate private practices all within the Hells Kitchen area alone, and each of these people had partners who were other psychologists, meaning just 2 city blocks can hold at least 30 different psychologists. The competition is fierce.

 

[psych.meout]

Why does my perfect fit program have to be a completely ridiculously over priced one
It's really so unfair how these programs in New York get away with not having full funded because it's new York and they'll just get away with being elitist and making a profit, and all the kids who don't come from wealth are up ****s creek with no paddle.

People who aren't from wealth aren't "up ****'s creek with no paddle"

They just lower themselves to attend programs in "the middle of no where" and socialize with "yokels."

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

I guess at this point this is what I feel my options are:

1) take the offer at Adelphi, increase my debt to a total amount of about 200k by graduation date, be a clinical psychologist

REJECT THE OFFER, keep debt at 77k for now:
2) apply for FT salaried case management, or research coordinator positions in NYC.

Reapply next cycle to more schools.
A) try to improve my GRE score ? But from the browsing I've been doing it seems I'm in range of what most people who get into programs are..and it might be an unnecessary stressor and time dump to try and get that math score up..idk.
B) try to submit 1 of my projects to a publication (have to figure out how all by myself but maybe you all can help a little just in the practicalities of it) {hassle the hell out of my new school lab to try and also get permission to submit the other project}

REJECT & CAREER SWITCH, keeping current debt at 77k and accruing more for career switch;
3) go to school for LCSW or LMHC
4) go to school for education. Pursue my initial dream of being an English teacher and writer. Maybe I can even teach a psych elective in hs -_-


I wish I could just do it all. I feel like I'm 16 years old trying to apply to colleges and pick a major all over again and it's frustrating I'm in this position again after all this time and all this hard work.

 

[Justanothergrad]

all the kids who don't come from wealth are up ****s creek with no paddle

Only if they don't use the clearly marked road beside them to go get another paddle. There are some clear options (being geographically flexible, being intentional about producing research products, etc). You opted not to take some of those choices (and have said you won't make them in the future- which is foolish) and you didn't have the fortune to have someone support your desires (e.g., publishing) when you applied this time. Neither of these things mean you didn't have choices along the way. For instance, how many conversations did you have about wanting to publish your thesis or how many times did you ask if you could submit lab data to a conference? I get that post-rejection frustration is a thing, but make sure you attribute it appropriately so you can take responsibility to fix it. It might be useful if you get over looking down on the rest of the country. You might find that to be helpful, and more accurate.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Only if they don't use the clearly marked road beside them to go get another paddle. There are some clear options (being geographically flexible, being intentional about producing research products, etc). You opted not to take some of those choices (and have said you won't make them in the future- which is foolish) and you didn't have the fortune to have someone support your desires (e.g., publishing) when you applied this time. Neither of these things mean you didn't have choices along the way. For instance, how many conversations did you have about wanting to publish your thesis or how many times did you ask if you could submit lab data to a conference? I get that post-rejection frustration is a thing, but make sure you attribute it appropriately so you can take responsibility to fix it. It might be useful if you get over looking down on the rest of the country. You might find that to be helpful, and more accurate.

Honestly you're being really condescending and the shouldve/wouldve/couldve doesn't help. I don't need to quantify my conversations to you to decide how much of this is a result of me being a **** up or not.

There are a lot of reasons besides I wanted to stay where I was from as to why I stayed in New York that frankly aren't relevant here. So ****ting on me for not leaving NY sooner does nothing. I did the effort to apply to places outside of new York this time around. I am looking outside the area and trying to expand my options.

Your points on my current situation and decision are helpful, but all of your backtracking blaming nonsense isn't. I worked hard. I did what I was supposed to do. The conversations were had ok? Stop doubting my work ethic. There are plenty of hard working, well deseved people who don't have publications becuase they didn't attend research heavy undergrad institutions, and the new school program is a ridiculous beast unto itself that operates differently than every other program out there.

So if you have anything else to contribute to my current decision then great, but if you're just going to take digs at me about things in the past I can't change, and make implications that im a screw up, then you're really not helping in those comments and feel free to stop contributing.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Honestly you're being really condescending and the shouldve/wouldve/couldve doesn't help. I don't need to quantify my conversations to you to decide how much of this is a result of me being a **** up or not.

There are a lot of reasons besides I wanted to stay where I was from as to why I stayed in New York that frankly aren't relevant here. So ****ting on me for not leaving NY sooner does nothing. I did the effort to apply to places outside of new York this time around. I am looking outside the area and trying to expand my options.

Your points on my current situation and decision are helpful, but all of your backtracking blaming nonsense isn't. I worked hard. I did what I was supposed to do. The conversations were had ok? Stop doubting my work ethic. There are plenty of hard working, well deseved people who don't have publications becuase they didn't attend research heavy undergrad institutions, and the new school program is a ridiculous beast unto itself that operates differently than every other program out there.

So if you have anything else to contribute to my current decision then great, but if you're just going to take digs at me about things in the past I can't change, and make implications that im a screw up, then you're really not helping in those comments and feel free to stop contributing.

You may not like what I have said but it is accurate. Just because it hurts your feelings does not mean that is condescending. All the things I outlined are difficulties you will face in pursuing graduate training (now and into internship) and are worthy of your consideration. Getting defensive does not make them not true. Understanding what you could have done differently does help because it offers you a road map to what you need to do differently now. If you want to vent about the difficulties of graduate applications then we can do that and believe me, I have my fair share as well (you and I won't be alone in that thread, I promise). However if the point is to figure out what to do next then it is useful to reflect on the past. Quite frankly, reasons where you want to apply are extremely relevant with respect to planning your future. If you tell me you are absolutely bound to a 3 hour radius of New York City, for instance, then my advice will be very different than if you tell me you are not bound. Considering that you have applied to places elsewhere in the country I do not see you is bound so much as having a preference for NY. In that case, I don't see a lot of use in sugar coating and telling how you can get what you want. You may not be able to get it all. This is unfortunate and a reality of life and graduate applications.

If you think you know how to get in on your own and that faculty advising you is not useful, by all means.. good luck

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

You may not like what I have said but it is accurate. Just because it hurts your feelings does not mean that is condescending. All the things I outlined are difficulties you will face in pursuing graduate training (now and into internship) and are worthy of your consideration. Getting defensive does not make them not true. Understanding what you could have done differently does help because it offers you a road map to what you need to do differently now. If you want to vent about the difficulties of graduate applications then we can do that and believe me, I have my fair share as well (you and I won't be alone in that thread, I promise). However if the point is to figure out what to do next then it is useful to reflect on the past. Quite frankly, reasons where you want to apply are extremely relevant with respect to planning your future. If you tell me you are absolutely bound to a 3 hour radius of New York City, for instance, then my advice will be very different than if you tell me you are not bound. Considering that you have applied to places elsewhere in the country I do not see you is bound so much as having a preference for NY. In that case, I don't see a lot of use in sugar coating and telling how you can get what you want. You may not be able to get it all. This is unfortunate and a reality of life and graduate applications.

If you think you know how to get in on your own and that faculty advising you is not useful, by all means.. good luck

Ok well you're making a lot of unnecessary, unhelpful, and faulty assumptions. The conversations were had and I was always clear about my goals, my mentors dropped the ball not me. After enough being ignored and shot down and watching PHD students undergo the same issues, it was clear those people weren't going to help me publish.

I could apply to more programs outside of NY that meet fit, funding, and quality of life criteria. I'm not saying I'll never leave new York. I would prefer not to and if I do, I have some preference on where I will be. This field is miserable enough I don't need to add a miserable landscape yo it when I'm not used to that anyways. If you're rom middle America moving somewhere else in middle America is not a big deal.

I feel like everyone is getting hung up on the fact I live in NY instead of giving me real advice. If the best advice you can offer me is move to the middle of no where then this obviously is a ****ty field to be in.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

.

 

[Justanothergrad]

You want us to offer you a solution to how you can make yourself competitive to get into a program in New York and other competitive areas. You don't like other solutions to your goal of getting into graduate training programs and you dislike inclination that your goal (as currently defined) may not be a feasible thing to achieve. So I'll answer your request on how to increase your competitiveness for NY and other highly competitive areas: Take the next 2-3 years and dedicate it to working full time in a research lab where you can produce numerous publications. Next, retake the GRE and increase your quant score to around the 75th+ percentile. Go do that and you're more likely to be successful. If you want advice on other ways to achieve you dream in a more timely manner and are open to exploring how to do those things, wait til you are less frustrated and re-read the advice in the thread.

 

[Peacemaker36]

If you have advice on other options in N.Y.? share it.
You have advice on likelihood of getting into a decent fully funded program with my current criteria, share it..
Steps I can take now to improve that, like try and submit a publication now, share it.
Advice on a career change, share it.

But sitting here ragging on me for having lived and been educated in new York, and trying to pick apart why I didn't get a publication yet is not advice and helps no one. If you think it is advice then you'e probably a crappy mentor too. If you have better advice you'e withhlding then please share it. But beating around the bush and bringing up things in the past I can't change now isn't helpful.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of biases expressed regularly on this forum. Whether or not the biases are true is debatable, but there is definitely an echo chamber effect. Just as one small example, the opinion that any serious psychology student should be prepared to move all over the country, and then should be willing to settle anywhere in the country for high-paying work, is a biased opinion. There are certainly plenty of psychologists out there who disagree with this. Personally I think a high level of debt is preferable to moving away from family and friends for years at a time.

 

[psych.meout]

Ok well you're making a lot of unnecessary, unhelpful, and faulty assumptions. The conversations were had and I was always clear about my goals, my mentors dropped the ball not me. After enough being ignored and shot down and watching PHD students undergo the same issues, it was clear those people weren't going to help me publish.

I have been bound to NY thus far for many reasons. I couldnt afford to move. My boyfriend was in apprenticeship for the IBEW and wanted to finish. I also never necessarily saw the reason to leave new York for my education up until this point. I am seeing I might need to and making decisions n where I applied based on fit, funding, and quality of life. I didn't get into those programs.

I could apply to more programs outside of NY that meet fit, funding, and quality of life criteria. I'm not saying I'll never leave new York. I would prefer not to and if I do, I have some preference on where I will be. This field is miserable enough I don't need to add a miserable landscape yo it when I'm not used to that anyways. If you're rom middle America moving somewhere else in middle America is not a big deal.

I feel like everyone is getting hung up on the fact I live in NY instead of giving me real advice. If the best advice you can offer me is move to the middle of no where then this obviously is a ****ty field to be in.

Do you realize that you're behaving like the stereotype of New Yorkers as smug and rude towards anyone who isn't from the city? Maybe, just maybe, you should stop insulting people who aren't from major metropolitan areas.

You seem a lot more concerned about leisure activities, climate, and what kind of people you'll be forced to live around and socialize with than the quality and cost of doctoral training. Can you imagine telling a patient, advisee, or class that these were the criteria you prioritized when choosing your training?

Keep in mind that there are a lot of biases expressed regularly on this forum. Whether or not the biases are true is debatable, but there is definitely an echo chamber effect. Just as one small example, the opinion that any serious psychology student should be prepared to move all over the country, and then should be willing to settle anywhere in the country for high-paying work, is a biased opinion. There are certainly plenty of psychologists out there who disagree with this. Personally I think a high level of debt is preferable to moving away from family and friends for years at a time.

Well, that's a choice you have to make for yourself and you have to live with the consequences. It's fine if you don't care about the math behind compound interest, early career psychologist remuneration, or the impact of student loan payments, because you have other values which are more important, including being near your friends and family. Just don't come around complaining about how much money you owe, how much of your earnings are going towards student loans, or how it's negatively impacting your finances and quality of life, especially since you were warned about it beforehand. Further, don't expect other people to take care of your debt for you through PSLF or any other program or changes to the law.

Then, we'll be all copacetic.

 

[Temperance]

And there is always the income based repayment. I'm on that now. It adjusts your loan payment to be a percentage of your income, and if your income is a certain percentage of your total student loan amount, your payment gets set to 0 but still counts as a "payment". If after 20 years of being on this plan, the remaining debt will be forgiven, regardless of how much you have paid.
So I mean with that sort of debt I'm sure that I would qualify for IBR my whole life and can just sort of do the bare minimum for the loan repayment, just to keep my credit score up..

Income-based repayment, Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and NIH loan repayment programs may not be around forever. Currently, there is discussion about how expensive the federal student loan program is to maintain, so it's very possible that these programs will go on the chopping block within the next 25 years.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Keep in mind that there are a lot of biases expressed regularly on this forum. Whether or not the biases are true is debatable, but there is definitely an echo chamber effect. Just as one small example, the opinion that any serious psychology student should be prepared to move all over the country, and then should be willing to settle anywhere in the country for high-paying work, is a biased opinion. There are certainly plenty of psychologists out there who disagree with this. Personally I think a high level of debt is preferable to moving away from family and friends for years at a time.

Yeah exactly lol. I've looked at plenty of threads about Adelphi and np one commented on those attacking people for being in NY.. Seems like a lot of people on this thread have a personal thing against the NY area. Advice is good and dandy. But people are fixating on that and failing to see I've been expressing being fairly flexible both in career and geographic location..

I'm just looking for some advice and answers on what I have said my goals are thus far in this thread...doesnt seem like a lot of people are commenting or contributing to that any longer and are having a personal problem with the fact I don't want to live in middle America lol.

Thank you for your input

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Income-based repayment, Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and NIH loan repayment programs may not be around forever. Currently, there is discussion about how expensive the federal student loan program is to maintain, so it's very possible that these programs will go on the chopping block within the next 25 years.

Good point, I actually ended up coming around to this conclusion with my bf when talking about it today. They can really change anything about student loan repayment. If they decide tomorrow to nix the income based, and demand students repay it within 5 years; we'd have to. Now that' ridiculous but there very well may be some changes in the future that could make my debt harder, or easier to manage. It's an unknown. If the IBR plans forgiveness was lowered from 25 years to 20, it could easily be changed again and perhaps not in my favor.

So that's something I'm thinking of as well...

 

[psych.meout]

Seems like a lot of people on this thread have a personal thing against the NY area.

That's what you've taken away from this thread?

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Do you realize that you're behaving like the stereotype of New Yorkers as smug and rude towards anyone who isn't from the city? Maybe, just maybe, you should stop insulting people who aren't from major metropolitan areas.

You seem a lot more concerned about leisure activities, climate, and what kind of people you'll be forced to live around and socialize with than the quality and cost of doctoral training. Can you imagine telling a patient, advisee, or class that these were the criteria you prioritized when choosing your training?



Well, that's a choice you have to make for yourself and you have to live with the consequences. It's fine if you don't care about the math behind compound interest, early career psychologist remuneration, or the impact of student loan payments, because you have other values which are more important, including being near your friends and family. Just don't come around complaining about how much money you owe, how much of your earnings are going towards student loans, or how it's negatively impacting your finances and quality of life, especially since you were warned about it beforehand. Further, don't expect other people to take care of your debt for you through PSLF or any other program or changes to the law.

Then, we'll all copacetic.

Honey can you imagine telling anyone from new York the only way they'd be able to be successful in their career would be to move to Kansas? They'd laugh in your face and tell you that's a ****ty career then.

Which is about the conclusion I'm coming to now..sorry you find it so insulting not everyone wants to move to bumble****.

As I said already I'm willing to shift careers into education or social work. So like really now it's not like my only option is move to no where Ville or take out debt. I'm asking for advice on all of the options I presented....i would prefer to get a doctorates, am willing to stay in NY or move to: Colorado, Utah, the Pacific northwest, and other north east programs, and Pennsylvania.

That's pretty darn flexible.
None of you have given me any feedback on likelihood of getting into programs in those areas based on what I've shared about myself and my experience.
You are harping on why I may or may not have chosen certain areas. Which really doesnt help. The only helpful person on tbe topic of flyover/midwest states was sharing that the activities I listed were available where they lived. That is helpful information.

Furthermore I look heavily into fit for research interests and program fit, IN ADDITION TO places I would like to live when choosing programs to apply to. It's not like I went, ooh I like skiing, let's apply everywhere near ski mountains ! And didn't look into programs or faculty. I am looking at fit first, and then choosing programs of interest from there that are also in places I'd be willing to live.. If you really think I'm not looking into program based on other factors then it's clear you're fixating on the parts you don't like about my posts and ignoring the rest.

And lastly, I really don't care if I'm acting like a stereotypical new Yorker. Get over it and provide some of the advice I'm seeking or don't and don't comment. No one's asking you to like me or my new York attitude

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

So....I guess i’d add the following:

1. Adelphi is still quite expensive, so given pre-existing debt, you are likely looking st $250k-$300k+ once you add in loan interest, tuition increases, etc.

2. Classes only make up a small portion of doctoral training, so while classes may be 2-3 days per week, expect to spend at least 5.5 full days doing program related work, with 6+ during midterms, finals, comps, dissertation deadlines, and dissertation defense.

3. Having a “normal” job (e.g. outside of the field/uni) while you are still taking classes can be quite difficult. Once you finish classes and are focusing on practica and research, an outside job may be more feasible. Masters training and time commitment is faaaar less than what is expected and needed at the doctoral level.

4. NYC is exceedingly competitive for practica, internship, and post-doc/fellowship so while many people prefer to stay within the five boroughs/tri-state area, it can be quite difficult to do for both internship AND post-doc. Post-doc tends to be easier to stay local than internship, it is still quite difficult.

5. The feedback you have received on here is full of solid advice and insight. Many of us have been where you are and we are trying to impart what we have learned. Feel free to disregard it, but know that bias is far from how I would catagorize it.

6. I’d encourage you to consider how you come off to people because in training it matters....a lot. As a 5th generation NYC/NJ’er...not everyone appreciates our openness and candor. In some instances it can be a barrier to learning and opportunities. Best of luck.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Also, man... Kansas ain't bad. KC is a ton of fun.

 

[psych.meout]

Honey can you imagine telling anyone from new York the only way they'd be able to be successful in their career would be to move to Kansas? They'd laugh in your face and tell you that's a ****ty career then.

Which is about the conclusion I'm coming to now..sorry you find it so insulting not everyone wants to move to bumble****.

As I said already I'm willing to shift careers into education or social work. So like really now it's not like my only option is move to no where Ville or take out debt. I'm asking for advice on all of the options I presented....i would prefer to get a doctorates, am willing to stay in NY or move to: Colorado, Utah, the Pacific northwest, and other north east programs, and Pennsylvania.

That's pretty darn flexible.
None of you have given me any feedback on likelihood of getting into programs in those areas based on what I've shared about myself and my experience.
You are harping on why I may or may not have chosen certain areas. Which really doesnt help. The only helpful person on tbe topic of flyover/midwest states was sharing that the activities I listed were available where they lived. That is helpful information.

Furthermore I look heavily into fit for research interests and program fit, IN ADDITION TO places I would like to live when choosing programs to apply to. It's not like I went, ooh I like skiing, let's apply everywhere near ski mountains ! And didn't look into programs or faculty. I am looking at fit first, and then choosing programs of interest from there that are also in places I'd be willing to live.. If you really think I'm not looking into program based on other factors then it's clear you're fixating on the parts you don't like about my posts and ignoring the rest.

And lastly, I really don't care if I'm acting like a stereotypical new Yorker. Get over it and provide some of the advice I'm seeking or don't and don't comment. No one's asking you to like me or my new York attitude

Again, you're completely missing the point. It doesn't matter what I think about you. What is important is how you come across to supervisors and patients, and your behavior here is throwing up huge red flags.

This, combined with your dearth of knowledge about basic things like publication, strongly indicate that you aren't ready for doctoral training.

 

[dynamicdog]

First of all, I'm sorry about the way people on here are responding to you. Even if they are making valid points, which some of them are, I agree that they being incredibly condescending and in my mind, defensive.

Second, Adelphi is an expensive program, but they, IMO also produce some of the most thoughtful, intelligent, and well-rounded psychologists.

Honey can you imagine telling anyone from new York the only way they'd be able to be successful in their career would be to move to Kansas? They'd laugh in your face and tell you that's a ****ty career then.

Which is about the conclusion I'm coming to now..sorry you find it so insulting not everyone wants to move to bumble****.

As I said already I'm willing to shift careers into education or social work. So like really now it's not like my only option is move to no where Ville or take out debt. I'm asking for advice on all of the options I presented....i would prefer to get a doctorates, am willing to stay in NY or move to: Colorado, Utah, the Pacific northwest, and other north east programs, and Pennsylvania.

That's pretty darn flexible.
None of you have given me any feedback on likelihood of getting into programs in those areas based on what I've shared about myself and my experience.
You are harping on why I may or may not have chosen certain areas. Which really doesnt help. The only helpful person on tbe topic of flyover/midwest states was sharing that the activities I listed were available where they lived. That is helpful information.

Furthermore I look heavily into fit for research interests and program fit, IN ADDITION TO places I would like to live when choosing programs to apply to. It's not like I went, ooh I like skiing, let's apply everywhere near ski mountains ! And didn't look into programs or faculty. I am looking at fit first, and then choosing programs of interest from there that are also in places I'd be willing to live.. If you really think I'm not looking into program based on other factors then it's clear you're fixating on the parts you don't like about my posts and ignoring the rest.

And lastly, I really don't care if I'm acting like a stereotypical new Yorker. Get over it and provide some of the advice I'm seeking or don't and don't comment. No one's asking you to like me or my new York attitude

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also, man... Kansas ain't bad. KC is a ton of fun.

Golden Ox...FTW!

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Again, you're completely missing the point. It doesn't matter what I think about you. What is important is how you come across to supervisors and patients, and your behavior here is throwing up huge red flags.

This, combined with your dearth of knowledge about basic things like publication, strongly indicate that you aren't ready for doctoral training.

Now you'e making assumptions on how I behave in clinical and professional settings because I'm popping off to 2 people here lol ok. I'm done with you.

For your information, I am wonderful with patients I expect you are a condescending know it all that makes their patients feel like crap though and probably talks **** about them to your colleagues

 

[psych.meout]

First of all, I'm sorry about the way people on here are responding to you. Even if they are making valid points, which some of them are, I agree that they being incredibly condescending and in my mind, defensive.

She's insulting entire swaths of the country calling them "nowhere" and "bumble****" inhabited by "yokels" and we're being "incredibly condescending?"

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

So....I guess i’d add the following:

1. Adelphi is still quite expensive, so given pre-existing debt, you are likely looking st $250k-$300k+ once you add in loan interest, tuition increases, etc.

2. Classes only make up a small portion of doctoral training, so while classes may be 2-3 days per week, expect to spend at least 5.5 full days doing program related work, with 6+ during midterms, finals, comps, dissertation deadlines, and dissertation defense.

3. Having a “normal” job (e.g. outside of the field/uni) while you are still taking classes can be quite difficult. Once you finish classes and are focusing on practica and research, an outside job may be more feasible. Masters training and time commitment is faaaar less than what is expected and needed at the doctoral level.

4. NYC is exceedingly competitive for practica, internship, and post-doc/fellowship so while many people prefer to stay within the five boroughs/tri-state area, it can be quite difficult to do for both internship AND post-doc. Post-doc tends to be easier to stay local than internship, it is still quite difficult.

5. The feedback you have received on here is full of solid advice and insight. Many of us have been where you are and we are trying to impart what we have learned. Feel free to disregard it, but know that bias is far from how I would catagorize it.

6. I’d encourage you to consider how you come off to people because in training it matters....a lot. As a 5th generation NYC/NJ’er...not everyone appreciates our openness and candor. In some instances it can be a barrier to learning and opportunities. Best of luck.

Your first point is a good one. The interest really would increase it a lot..eugh. I think I have a cognitive block against thinking about it lol.

Your other point, everyone at Adelphi takes out loans, and a significant number work outside jobs.. I talked to students and faculty at the open house/group interview about this. It's possible if you work nights and weekends, and many work on the days they don't have class/lab. They only meet 2x a week for class there and the labs are built around class days so students don't have to come to school on days they don't have class. As it's not a funded program they operate it differently. Many people spoke of taking out loans for living expenses themselves, but of friends who didn't want to and worked on the days they didn't have to be in school, and weekends. Some were LMHC/LCSW who actively saw patients during the program. One mentioned an accupucturist lol. Faculty mentioned restaurant work being another since it's flexible.. I forget the other jobs people mentioned students having.

Adelphi doesn't seem to have a problem with practica. They have 3 sites between long island and the city that are strictly practica for Adelphi students. I think they said there's guaranteed 12 spots for externship I believe they said, and the rest get placements outside those specific Adelphi spots, and I suppose are more of the typical competitive type of spots. I believe they have the standard match rate of other programs in the area for internship. There's a good amount to go around in NYC and LI and Adelphi has the edge of having a foot in each location, which no other program in the area has to the same extend.

Is also has a wonderful reputation in ny.

As for post doc, I actually don't know much about that. Isn't that primarily for those that plan to go exclusively into academia ?
In NY I'm pretty sure there's no post doc hours for licensing. iirc, your hours are all gained in your PhD program/internship here. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I just never heard of anyone going into a post doc in NY for clinical hours.

I think everyone also needs to re read this entire thread and see how I was speaking in the beginning vs when people started coming for me personally..

And obviously. I'm not this short fused and snotty professionally. I just have 2 days to make this decision and I'm not in the mood to argue over why I didn't apply to middle America or publish a paper yet. It's useless and not helpful.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Golden Ox...FTW!

I missed out on the Ox but I hear its reopening and I'll be back up there soon. I've heard good things.

 

[deleted106747]

I'm from New York.
No matter how tired and pressured you are, you need to examine your attitude toward people if you ever want to be a good psychologist. You also need to stop being so defensive and listen to what people are telling you.
Bottom line: do not take out that level of debt for this career. It is a huge financial mistake from which you will never recover.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

States do vary on licensing hours, so you just have to look at each state licensing board and see how many hours you need. A lot of the variation comes from post-doctoral hours. APA accredited internships should provide you with the same (or at least similar) number of clinical hours regardless of what state you're doing it in. Also, I don't have hard numbers, but it seems that relocation is par for the course in clinical psychology. Many people relocate for grad school, then again for internship, and again for post doc.

I think I was going on the assumption that since supervision hours for licensing hours vary state to state, that each programs practice/externship/internship would only give you the qualifying hours for licensure in that state. And as a new Yorker we tend to have the most competitie and highst requirements for any field, so getting an education here i would expect would provide me with the hours to work here and transfer to other states whereas perhaps these flyover states, will not be able to allow me to gain licensure in many of the states, I would want to move to after school.

I know academia people move all over to wherever there's a position but clinicians have to worry about licensing issues as well.

If I'm wrong about this please let me know !

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

First of all, I'm sorry about the way people on here are responding to you. Even if they are making valid points, which some of them are, I agree that they being incredibly condescending and in my mind, defensive.

Second, Adelphi is an expensive program, but they, IMO also produce some of the most thoughtful, intelligent, and well-rounded psychologists.

Thank you ! I know their clinical rep is amazing in the area..its a tough call.

I am just trying to figure if the pay off would be worth it ahh.
On 1 end I get to have the career I want, a higher salary than otherwise stated, more options (teach, research, clinical, private practice)
But a ton of debt.
I just don't know if it will be worth it.
And if I can even get into fully funded elsewhere..
If I should give up and switch careers..bur what would the pay off be for that ?
It's a lot.

 

[PsyDuck90]

I think I was going on the assumption that since supervision hours for licensing hours vary state to state, that each programs practice/externship/internship would only give you the qualifying hours for licensure in that state. And as a new Yorker we tend to have the most competitie and highst requirements for any field, so getting an education here i would expect would provide me with the hours to work here and transfer to other states whereas perhaps these flyover states, will not be able to allow me to gain licensure in many of the states, I would want to move to after school.

I know academia people move all over to wherever there's a position but clinicians have to worry about licensing issues as well.

If I'm wrong about this please let me know !

Eh, NY and NJ are even, and actually NJ seems to make you jump through more hoops although the hours are the same. I believe Michigan is the most difficult, requiring 6000 hours.

MA programs work in the way you mentioned, but PhD programs are more universal. Even people who are clinicians tend to have to move around for internship and/or post doc.

 

[psych.meout]

I think I was going on the assumption that since supervision hours for licensing hours vary state to state, that each programs practice/externship/internship would only give you the qualifying hours for licensure in that state. And as a new Yorker we tend to have the most competitie and highst requirements for any field, so getting an education here i would expect would provide me with the hours to work here and transfer to other states whereas perhaps these flyover states, will not be able to allow me to gain licensure in many of the states, I would want to move to after school.

I know academia people move all over to wherever there's a position but clinicians have to worry about licensing issues as well.

If I'm wrong about this please let me know !

You just can't help yourself, huh?

 

[deleted343839]

Or should I take my chances, reject the offer, and hope to get into a fully funded program next year? I'm scared about that since I didn't even get another interview invocation this time around and still have no publications, and stopped going to my lab at the new school after graduation.

I think a viable Option B would be to try to find a paid research assistant position and get additional research experience and mentoring that way, then try again for a funded program after a year or two (more like two, being realistic). It would benefit you to be part of a team that is more generous and forthcoming with authorship opportunities, with people who can show you the ropes when it comes to submitting your work to conference and peer-reviewed journals. The academic medical centers in the NY area would be a potentially good place to find such a team. However, I think this would only be worth the extra time if you were still willing to apply more broadly to doctoral programs, since no matter what it's still a competitive field.

And then there's Option A, because all that might not be worth it to you. It sounds like you enjoy your area and would prefer to stay put, and you have the certainty of an admission offer in hand. Only you can put a dollar value on that. You have gotten some solid advice here, much of it unvarnished, but at the end of the day it is up to you to decide whether it is worth low-mid six figures to know, with reasonably good odds (Adelphi's program has low attrition and decent match rates), that in approximately 5-6 years you will be able to call yourself a psychologist.

Speaking as someone who grew up "Pell grant poor" and took on some educational debt, I can tell you from the other side of the PhD that debt sucks even when you're making a decent salary. My advice is to do what you can to minimize it. Don't try to make this decision more complicated than it is. Accept the price tag or don't. Think about writing a check for a couple thousand a month (I'm guessing) to repay student loans, rather than to pay a mortgage or fund your kids' college funds or whatever, and doing that every month for decades. The worst thing you can do is put your head in the sand about that eventuality. I wouldn't do it. If you think you could really be at peace with that, then go for it if you want. There is only one name on that signature line, and only one person's opinion that truly matters here.

The issue of "what else could I do?" is best treated as an entirely separate question. Don't get caught up in the sunk cost trap.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

What would you have to do to become an English teacher at this point? I think it is an option worth considering. I know my friends who are teachers make about the same amount of money that I do at this point in our careers (I’m an independent contractor about 10 yrs out, teacher friends have been teaching 15 or so years). The difference is that they get raises, paid sick time, vacation, summers off, retirement benefits, etc. Granted, I could make more money and have some benefits if I worked in an AMC, VA, or something, but this is the unglamorous world of the private practitioner, which is where many clinicians end up. I’m not saying you should go into something that isn’t a passion, but if you, like many people, have multiple passions, it is worth considering. Good luck.

 

[Psychologist_dreamer]

Eh, NY and NJ are even, and actually NJ seems to make you jump through more hoops although the hours are the same. I believe Michigan is the most difficult, requiring 6000 hours.

MA programs work in the way you mentioned, but PhD programs are more universal. Even people who are clinicians tend to have to move around for internship and/or post doc.

Oh, internship in New York programs seems to always be in NY? I have never heard of anyone having to leave the city or long island for internship here.. I didn't even know that was a thing in other places ??? So you mean in other programs you have to often move to another state for internship ? That seems really weird. So how many times do they expect you to move for the field then ?

1x for the program
2x for internship
3x for post doc
4x for a job

I'm sorry that's ridiculous my partner would never be on board for that and frankly neither would I.

And again, here it doesn't seem like the norm is for people who aren't strictly academics to do post doc? That's what it seems to me from the phd students I've interacted with here in NYC and LI. Seems the post docs are the academics, or people from other countries/states, while the clinicians go for licensing and assistant positions afterwards.

That's all a lot and seems to be quite different than the experience here in NY that's also important to factor into this decision too huh. I guess it's because in other areas there's just not enough going on in the area the programs are to do it all there ?

I mean my issue with other states/less desirable states is would I meet the licensing hour requirements to come back and license in NY if I wanted to, or in some of these other states I would want to live in? (Massachusetts, Pacific north west, North East, etc). This stuff is a whole other ballpark to consider too