Advice from Prof for Applicants to PhD Programs

[Ilovecows]

Don't be afraid to have different writers for different programs. It's one way of making your professors feel included and additionally I would send 4 letters to each program (UNLESS it specifically stated to send only 3.) This prevented my applications from getting held back because of a missing letter or late letter.

I also found my first time through that one of my rec writers had some personal problems that precluded her from writing powerful letters (and probably killed my chances at some schools.) While the letters were all sent blind, sometimes you can get feedback to identify weak writers, hopefully you won't experience this... DO NOT ALLOW A SINGLE PROFESSOR THE CHANCE TO TANK YOUR ACCEPTANCE TO ALL PROGRAMS. This happened to one of my professors who was undone by one professor despite thinking she had a good research relationship with him.

By using 5 profs across multiple applications you can prevent one professor from being able to sink your chances everywhere. I was very careful with the second year picks. Some offered to let me see the letters prior to sending... these letters I would send to any program since I knew the content, despite being "blind". It was the truly "blind" letters that I was careful with. Trust me, this is important. Mix it up and use your best judgment.

Mark

Wow, that's a good post Mark -- I didn't think of using a different set of writers for a different set of applications. Do you think it might get too complicated, if I use one set of 3 for school A, another set for school B? Should I tell my LORs I'm doing this - for e.g. if they ask all the schools I'm applying to?
And if I do this - say I don't include the person with whom I have not-yet-accepted publications would it be strange? Bah.
What you said is somewhat worrisome too ...yeah, don't want to have 1 person sink chances at all schools. I thought oh if one is not so great, the other 2 will boost it up, but maybe not eh?

Thanks for your post! Really got me thinking

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[bludreamz]

Just wanted to say hello to the advising professor, and thanks for the help you've been to the board.

I was wondering what the average research experience was for accepted students, or even a time range.. Or even what kind of research experience one looks for in a student. I am doing some volunteer research now, but I want to know what kind of skills I should obtain, and how involved I should be. This is a general question (as I'm not interested in clinical psyc). also, should I continue to do research after applications while waiting for acceptance and rejections (in case I don't get in)? Thanks in advance!

 

[bludreamz]

It is probably assumed that you are either an undergrad or someone working in a low paid RA position (or at McDonald's while volunteering for a research project).

This made me smile, as it reminds me of my current situation.

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I'm curious as to know:

I have quite a bit of research experience behind my name. This comes from research engagement with several faculty members. All of whom have offered to write me LORs. What factors should I use in deciding who to ask? They have all told me that they can speak very highly of my research abilities, my "go get 'em attitude", creativity, etc. I have a choice, so ...in selecting 3 people:

a) length of time worked with?
b) prestige of individual in general (famous Psych professor)?
c) prestige of individual within the domain of interest (very well known in X research)?
d) who they know (A knows B and frequently publishes with B, and I want to work with B)
e) what I've done with them? (Research Fellowships vs. co-authored on 2 peer-reviewed papers)
f) how closely my work with them models the work I want to do in graduate school (not the same as e)


If I ask someone with whom I will start full-time work with in Aug 08. They'll only have had 3 mo full time with me before they write for me. But then they are very known in the domain I want to work in and they have published with the prof I want to work with. (3 mo seems so short a time)

If I ask the famous professor, then I'll have worked with him for 3 yrs by that point but his research has no real overlap with my interest. (I wouldn't ask him just because he's famous, but more because of the amount of time we've worked together)
~ the other professors range from working with them from ~1 yrs - 3.5 yrs ~


I'm not stressing. I'm not worried. I'd just like to ask for my LORs as soon as possible to give them sufficient time. I want my LORs to 'rise to the top', and I figure, hey, if I'm lucky enough to have the choice to pick, as they'll all they nice things, I might as well make the best of the opportunity.

Can you help me decide which factors to use - or if you have additional insight into what's important?

Thank you. I look very much forward to your response - I shall be obliged.

c, d, and e are the most important. but even more than that - who will be able to speak to your skill as an independent researcher and a responsible person ready for a doctoral degree the most. that may vary with the factors you listed above, or not. and you can always submit more than 3. i wouldn't submit more than +1, but if that extra letter helps you with a decision, it will be fine.

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I swear I don't know the answer anymore!

One question this time:

#1 We have to take an advanced lab course to graduate. Some of my friends who took this course, put it down on their CVs as part of research experience. They did nothing more than what was required by the course (neither did I do anything more than that).
To me, putting a course that's required to graduate on one's CV is like CV padding.

I started a thread about this topic. People answered.
Now I don't know how I feel about it.

What say you? Is putting a course that's a requirement for graduation just CV padding or is it a legitimate thing?

THANKS Dr.ClinPsy!

prob won't matter either way. it may be padding a bit but as long as you don't pad egregiously, it will be ok. no one is scrutinizing the CV at this stage since most people don't have that much to be on one yet (and many don't submit one at all!)

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Just wanted to say hello to the advising professor, and thanks for the help you've been to the board.

I was wondering what the average research experience was for accepted students, or even a time range.. Or even what kind of research experience one looks for in a student. I am doing some volunteer research now, but I want to know what kind of skills I should obtain, and how involved I should be. This is a general question (as I'm not interested in clinical psyc). also, should I continue to do research after applications while waiting for acceptance and rejections (in case I don't get in)? Thanks in advance!

An increasingly large proportion of students accepted into clinical PhD programs have had a full-time RA position for 1-2 years. Some folks get in straight out of undergrad, but they usually have an Honors or Senior thesis. Independent research experience is important.

Can't comment much on non-clinical programs.

As for continuing research will applying - yes, it will be imp if you re-apply and hopefully it is something you will enjoy doing anyway!

 

[deleted176373]

Wow, that's a good post Mark -- I didn't think of using a different set of writers for a different set of applications. Do you think it might get too complicated, if I use one set of 3 for school A, another set for school B? Should I tell my LORs I'm doing this - for e.g. if they ask all the schools I'm applying to?
And if I do this - say I don't include the person with whom I have not-yet-accepted publications would it be strange? Bah.
What you said is somewhat worrisome too ...yeah, don't want to have 1 person sink chances at all schools. I thought oh if one is not so great, the other 2 will boost it up, but maybe not eh?

Thanks for your post! Really got me thinking

What I did, and I recommend highly that you consider, is that you tell your professors (after they offer to write LORs) is that you will put a package together for them with all the schools you want them to send LORs to. There is no need to divulge that you are applying to additional schools beyond that which you have asked for letters.

I had a spreadsheet to manage everything.

Mark

 

[Ilovecows]

What I did, and I recommend highly that you consider, is that you tell your professors (after they offer to write LORs) is that you will put a package together for them with all the schools you want them to send LORs to. There is no need to divulge that you are applying to additional schools beyond that which you have asked for letters.

I had a spreadsheet to manage everything.

Mark

Mark - you're fantastic! I feel happy now. All my profs can feel included. The only reservation I have, is that if I say - here are the schools I want letters sent to - some of my profs might suggest a school ...but it'll be a school I *am* applying to, but haven't asked *them* to write a letter for. Do you know what I mean? Did this happen to you?

 

[Ilovecows]

c, d, and e are the most important. but even more than that - who will be able to speak to your skill as an independent researcher and a responsible person ready for a doctoral degree the most. that may vary with the factors you listed above, or not. and you can always submit more than 3. i wouldn't submit more than +1, but if that extra letter helps you with a decision, it will be fine.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE PROF C.P.A. I was very happy to read your answer.

Follow - up: If I send letters from profs with c, d, e...then I'll generally be sending letters more of less only from the profs I've worked a short while with ~ 3 mo - 1 yr . Would some professors think: hmmm why isn't she sending letters from her 'more longer worked with' professors? Given that some profs I've worked with for 3 - 3.5 years?

 

[Ilovecows]

no one is scrutinizing the CV at this stage since most people don't have that much to be on one yet (and many don't submit one at all!)

Really? People don't submit one?! Wow. I guess I worry too much (as per my previous q) to you. If it is true that the CV is not scruntinized, than I guess they don't have time to wonder why I didn't submit a letter from a prof that I worked with for 3 years and only submitted letters from more recent profs. Is my thinking correct in this sense?

 

[cara susanna]

I have a question now, actually, regarding LoRs.

Does it look bad if you did not get A's in your LoR writer's classes?

Thanks!

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Really? People don't submit one?! Wow. I guess I worry too much (as per my previous q) to you. If it is true that the CV is not scruntinized, than I guess they don't have time to wonder why I didn't submit a letter from a prof that I worked with for 3 years and only submitted letters from more recent profs. Is my thinking correct in this sense?

yup

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I have a question now, actually, regarding LoRs.

Does it look bad if you did not get A's in your LoR writer's classes?

Thanks!

It may affect the the tone of the letter writer's recommendation. If you have no other working relationship with that prof, then maybe this is not the best person to be asking?

 

[psybee]

Hello Dr!

the last time i wrote you i had questions about applications, etc. now i am in at a great program and preparing for my orientation - huzzah! thank you again for being not only a source of information, but also a beacon of sanity and experience during this grueling process.

so now that i'm getting ready to start my phd, i was wondering if you, as a dct who i'm sure has seen many students come and go, have any advice on how to try to maintain some balance during a program. i'm a non trad, and am entering this program will a very full life. two of my freinds, who were in different, but also challenging, grad programs have already gotten divorced, in part due to the stress and the time demands of thier programs. i want to be an excellent scientist and clinician, but also, you know, have a life and be a good partner and friend. anythings you've seen in common among folks that seem to balance pretty well? among those that don't?

many thanks,

psybee

 

[cara susanna]

It may affect the the tone of the letter writer's recommendation. If you have no other working relationship with that prof, then maybe this is not the best person to be asking?

Oh, no, I do research with this person as well. He/she has told me that I will getting a very strong letter, but I'll make sure that it will still be strong when I ask for them.

 

[deleted176373]

Mark - you're fantastic! I feel happy now. All my profs can feel included. The only reservation I have, is that if I say - here are the schools I want letters sent to - some of my profs might suggest a school ...but it'll be a school I *am* applying to, but haven't asked *them* to write a letter for. Do you know what I mean? Did this happen to you?

Nope, never happened to me. I would have just said that I wanted to make sure that other professors who were adamant about writing letter had an opportunity and I didn't feel right excluding anyone. Any reasonable professor will be ok with that logic, and after all that's the truth. I did disclose to one or two that I did this myself, they had no problem with it.

Mark

 

[deleted176373]

Really? People don't submit one?! Wow. I guess I worry too much (as per my previous q) to you. If it is true that the CV is not scruntinized, than I guess they don't have time to wonder why I didn't submit a letter from a prof that I worked with for 3 years and only submitted letters from more recent profs. Is my thinking correct in this sense?

I had a fall out with my research and 1st thesis advisor. I worked in her lab for 2 years... I did not need, want, or ask for a letter from her, she would have sabotaged me at every opportunity. Submit letters from people who want you to go to Graduate School.

Mark

 

[scienceisbeauty]

Hi Professor

1. If someone took the GRE twice - see I know that all schools deal with it differently I suppose - but how do you think a prof would see it? I am registered to take them Aug 30. But say I don't do well. If I take them again and score much higher: would that high score be looked at as 'less impressive' than if I had gotten a high score the first time around?

Thanks Dr.CLINPSY!

 

[deleted176373]

Hi Professor

1. If someone took the GRE twice - see I know that all schools deal with it differently I suppose - but how do you think a prof would see it? I am registered to take them Aug 30. But say I don't do well. If I take them again and score much higher: would that high score be looked at as 'less impressive' than if I had gotten a high score the first time around?

Thanks Dr.CLINPSY!

You want to avoid this scenario, however, people have off days. I don't know how professors would view it, but they understand the concept of regression to the mean, which doesn't work in your favor. If you aren't ready to take it, reschedule it, and continue to prepare.

You only want this stress once in your life... not 2 times.

Mark

 

[scienceisbeauty]

sure it's ideal to "get it right the first time", but :

1. What is the best alternate scenario?

GRE # 1 = low score ; GRE # 2 = high score
GRE # 1 = cancelled ; GRE # 2 = high score


2. Do professors care if one reschedules to take the GRE - do they even notice?

Thanks DR.CLINPSY!

 

[scienceisbeauty]

Hey prof,

I was wondering: I have a somewhat idea of which schools I'll be applying to. However, I'm not 100% certain just quite yet.

Is it ok to tell professors I would like to get a letter of rec from them, and I'm just letting them know asap but will give them all the documents once I decide where I want to apply?

Or is it better to wait until I've decided on all the schools?

Thanks!

 

[biogirl215]

In general, does it matter whether an applicant has worked for one professor for long peroid of time vs. working in multiple labs? Is there any advantage to working in more labs as opposed to stucking with one? Also, is allied but not directly related experience counted? For example, in addition to volunteering in a psych lab, I also volunteer in a biomedical lab where we do research on 5HT1a serotonin receptors, so it's tangentially related to psych but not directly.

Thanks!

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Hello Dr!

the last time i wrote you i had questions about applications, etc. now i am in at a great program and preparing for my orientation - huzzah! thank you again for being not only a source of information, but also a beacon of sanity and experience during this grueling process.

so now that i'm getting ready to start my phd, i was wondering if you, as a dct who i'm sure has seen many students come and go, have any advice on how to try to maintain some balance during a program. i'm a non trad, and am entering this program will a very full life. two of my freinds, who were in different, but also challenging, grad programs have already gotten divorced, in part due to the stress and the time demands of thier programs. i want to be an excellent scientist and clinician, but also, you know, have a life and be a good partner and friend. anythings you've seen in common among folks that seem to balance pretty well? among those that don't?

many thanks,

psybee

Everyone has different strategies that are effective for them when it comes to stress-reduction and time management, so on that front, I will simply advise you to do whatever you have been doing that helped you get this far.

But beyond this, I would offer 2 pieces of info:

1. You will NOT be able to do everything demanded of you in grad school at 100% effort. This is a sad and difficult thing to accept among us perfectionists, but it is simply not possible to do you absolute very best on every single task. If you need to cut corners somewhere, most will advise you to do so with classwork. Your classes provide you with excellent references for future study, but your grades in these classes will almost never be looked at in any future stage of your career whatsoever. Your 80% effort in classes will be enough to do well (given that your 80% is probably still pretty good!).

2. Learn quickly how long it takes you to accomplish certain tasks, and schedule yourself accordingly. You could conceivably dedicate a week towards writing a poster abstract. But after the first afternoon, the incremental contribution to the final outcome will probably be very small. If this can get done in a few hours, allow yourself only that amount of time. Similarly, one could prep for a lecture for an entire career and still not know everything. It is OK to answer a student's question by saying that you do not know, and once you free yourself from such high expectations, you will be able to learn how long is needed to prep a good lecture (and when to move on to the next task).

Hope this helps! Good luck!

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Hi Professor

1. If someone took the GRE twice - see I know that all schools deal with it differently I suppose - but how do you think a prof would see it? I am registered to take them Aug 30. But say I don't do well. If I take them again and score much higher: would that high score be looked at as 'less impressive' than if I had gotten a high score the first time around?

Thanks Dr.CLINPSY!

Taking it twice is fine. In the context of a great application overall, including a great GRE score, I can't imagine that someone would be looked at unfavorably because they also had a low score on a prior administration. (Assuming, I suppose that it wasn't Much, Much lower).

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

sure it's ideal to "get it right the first time", but :

1. What is the best alternate scenario?

GRE # 1 = low score ; GRE # 2 = high score
GRE # 1 = cancelled ; GRE # 2 = high score


2. Do professors care if one reschedules to take the GRE - do they even notice?

Thanks DR.CLINPSY!

I doubt anyone would notice or care

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

In general, does it matter whether an applicant has worked for one professor for long peroid of time vs. working in multiple labs? Is there any advantage to working in more labs as opposed to stucking with one? Also, is allied but not directly related experience counted? For example, in addition to volunteering in a psych lab, I also volunteer in a biomedical lab where we do research on 5HT1a serotonin receptors, so it's tangentially related to psych but not directly.

Thanks!

It's what you do in the lab(s) that is more important. If sticking in one lab gets you more substantial experience, then that is great! If multiple labs help you triangulate on an area of your interest, that is also great.

Your 'allied' experience sounds like it could be very psych-relevant, if you end up applying to do bio-related clinical research. if not, then it probably will not seem as relevant.

 

[districtFIVE]

In undergrad, I think I personified the "grades aren't important" mantra (which I still think they are just a means to an end, but an end that is very real and important to me now) and graduated with a 3.0x (just high enough to keep the HOPE scholarship in GA). I was very interested in psychology all along but always wanted to be a high school teacher (which I went and did for a year).
After reading/researching what it would take to get me into a PhD program, I decided to get my Master's in Clinical/Counseling at a state school. I am writing a thesis (which will be my only research experience thus far) and putting more effort into grades now (I realistically think I will leave here with a 3.6-3.8).
Having said that, I am a pretty good test taker and scored fairly well (14xx on the GRE with a 760 Q) and think once I actually study for the GRE I could have at least a 1450 and perhaps higher. My question (finally) is what GRE score would make you forget (or outshine) a 3.0? Is there a cut-off where the GRE shows my ability and the GPA is no longer an issue? I was thinking about applying for PhD programs (in Neuro most likely) for next year, which would be before I finish my Master's and didn't know if raising the GRE could get me a look without worrying about raising my GPA at grad school.

Thanks and God bless.

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

In undergrad, I think I personified the "grades aren't important" mantra (which I still think they are just a means to an end, but an end that is very real and important to me now) and graduated with a 3.0x (just high enough to keep the HOPE scholarship in GA). I was very interested in psychology all along but always wanted to be a high school teacher (which I went and did for a year).
After reading/researching what it would take to get me into a PhD program, I decided to get my Master's in Clinical/Counseling at a state school. I am writing a thesis (which will be my only research experience thus far) and putting more effort into grades now (I realistically think I will leave here with a 3.6-3.8).
Having said that, I am a pretty good test taker and scored fairly well (14xx on the GRE with a 760 Q) and think once I actually study for the GRE I could have at least a 1450 and perhaps higher. My question (finally) is what GRE score would make you forget (or outshine) a 3.0? Is there a cut-off where the GRE shows my ability and the GPA is no longer an issue? I was thinking about applying for PhD programs (in Neuro most likely) for next year, which would be before I finish my Master's and didn't know if raising the GRE could get me a look without worrying about raising my GPA at grad school.

Thanks and God bless.

Sure, I think a high GRE can help if grades are low. I am not sure there is any specific cutoff number. Grades still show how someone does in a course of study over time, and will count for something.

 

[districtFIVE]

Sure, I think a high GRE can help if grades are low. I am not sure there is any specific cutoff number. Grades still show how someone does in a course of study over time, and will count for something.

Thanks for your prompt reply. I know you are saying to be competitive at most schools you need like a 3.6 and a 1250 or so, I guess my question is would something like a 3.1 and a 1450 be equivalent to those numbers? Or 3.1 with a 1400? 1500?


Thanks again.

 

[scienceisbeauty]

I read through the thread, and I know somewhere someone asked about averages and their mark being compared to the average...

You said that the class average doesn't appear on transcripts so it's not taken into consideration really.

But here at my university (Canadian), the average appears right beside our mark. Right on the transcript.
So it's course code, course title, the weight of the course, our mark in %, the corresponding letter grade to our % mark, and then the class average letter grade.

So given that the class average DOES appear on OUR transcript, would profs look at it, and care ? Most of our class averages are 60-65. And my averages against that are 80-90.

In Canada, it's wayy tougher to get an 80, and an 80 signifies an A- or 3.7.

Thanks Dr. ClinPsy!!!

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I read through the thread, and I know somewhere someone asked about averages and their mark being compared to the average...

You said that the class average doesn't appear on transcripts so it's not taken into consideration really.

But here at my university (Canadian), the average appears right beside our mark. Right on the transcript.
So it's course code, course title, the weight of the course, our mark in %, the corresponding letter grade to our % mark, and then the class average letter grade.

So given that the class average DOES appear on OUR transcript, would profs look at it, and care ? Most of our class averages are 60-65. And my averages against that are 80-90.

In Canada, it's wayy tougher to get an 80, and an 80 signifies an A- or 3.7.

Thanks Dr. ClinPsy!!!

No, I don't think many scrutinize the transcript at all.

 

[mplsgirl]

Hello Dr, and thanks for all of this useful information! I have read through the posts and think it is just amazing that you take the time to help all of us.

My question is regarding to research interests. I will be applying to clinical psychology Ph,D. programs this fall, and am struggling with what interest I should put on my personal statement! I have a keen interest in psychology and law, which is outlined in my background. I have a lot of experience in this area, including a Departmental Honors research project with a well-known psychologist and researcher in the psych and law field, a letter of recommendation from her, and an internship at the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension in my state. I have always had an interest in this type of application.

However, I also have a great interest in working with kids, which my background also outlines. I have an abundance of clinical experience working with children, and also have research experience with this population. For the past year and a half, I have worked as a RA doing MRI research, and the majority of studies/populations I work with are pediatric.

I would be happy doing research in either area, and am committed to both. I do realize that sometime I will have to make a decision one way or the other. My question is: should I cater my applications to one or the other, or state that I am equally interested in both areas? Which strategy would make my application more competitive? I mean, ideally I would work with juvenile delinquents, which would combine both of my interests. Some of the programs I'm applying to have a psych and law emphasis, while others have faculty members doing research involving kids. What to do?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[biogirl215]

Your 'allied' experience sounds like it could be very psych-relevant, if you end up applying to do bio-related clinical research. if not, then it probably will not seem as relevant.

Thanks! Would it still be worth noting (if briefly) on an application, regardless?

 

[scienceisbeauty]

One of my professors said: If someone doesn't have a GPA/GRE that is or is very close to the mean of the 2007/08 (most recent) accepted applicant mean (available from disclosure data), then that person shouldn't both applying to the school

A different professor said: As long as your GPA is above 3.5 and GRE above 1200

A still different professor said: average the means for the full disclosure data from the past 5 years (what's usually put up), if you are very close to, at or above, only apply then.

Who is right? I know schools sometimes have a "you must have a minimum of X GPA and Y GRE scores".
But one of my professors said that means very very little.

1. Who is correct?

2. And how close is close enough?
2a). Is a 3.61 GPA to a 3.79 mean accepted GPA close enough?

 

[deleted176373]

One of my professors said: If someone doesn't have a GPA/GRE that is or is very close to the mean of the 2007/08 (most recent) accepted applicant mean (available from disclosure data), then that person shouldn't both applying to the school

A different professor said: As long as your GPA is above 3.5 and GRE above 1200

A still different professor said: average the means for the full disclosure data from the past 5 years (what's usually put up), if you are very close to, at or above, only apply then.

Who is right? I know schools sometimes have a "you must have a minimum of X GPA and Y GRE scores".
But one of my professors said that means very very little.

Who is correct?
And how close is close enough? Is a 3.61 GPA to a 3.79 mean accepted GPA close enough?

Remember to think of the GPA/GRE thing as a hurdle. That hurdle is somewhat dependent on the number of applications. Usually the hurdle is around 3.5/1200 to get some initial consideration. From there the sorting begins. If you have a particularly strong GRE and a slightly weaker GPA, your app will probably still be looked at carefully.

Remember you are selling yourself. A good school with a slightly lower GPA won't hurt you if your GRE is strong. These professors are trying to give you good advice, but remember if 1/2 the people had 4.0 GPA's (I did for instance) that would mean that 1/2 had 3.6 GPA's to end up at a 3.8!

I tend to agree with professor number 2, provided you can sell the rest of your application. IT IS CRITICAL TO REMEMBER GPA/GRE DO NOT GET YOU AN INTERVIEW. An interesting and outstanding package do, GRE/GPA is just a hurdle. Some schools stated that you needed a 600 min on each GRE subtest, I had a 560V/740Q... and yes, I still got interviewed.

Good luck,

Mark

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Hello Dr, and thanks for all of this useful information! I have read through the posts and think it is just amazing that you take the time to help all of us.

My question is regarding to research interests. I will be applying to clinical psychology Ph,D. programs this fall, and am struggling with what interest I should put on my personal statement! I have a keen interest in psychology and law, which is outlined in my background. I have a lot of experience in this area, including a Departmental Honors research project with a well-known psychologist and researcher in the psych and law field, a letter of recommendation from her, and an internship at the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension in my state. I have always had an interest in this type of application.

However, I also have a great interest in working with kids, which my background also outlines. I have an abundance of clinical experience working with children, and also have research experience with this population. For the past year and a half, I have worked as a RA doing MRI research, and the majority of studies/populations I work with are pediatric.

I would be happy doing research in either area, and am committed to both. I do realize that sometime I will have to make a decision one way or the other. My question is: should I cater my applications to one or the other, or state that I am equally interested in both areas? Which strategy would make my application more competitive? I mean, ideally I would work with juvenile delinquents, which would combine both of my interests. Some of the programs I'm applying to have a psych and law emphasis, while others have faculty members doing research involving kids. What to do?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

Sure, you can mention both, but be sure to emphasize the one that best matches to the program you are applying to. You can need to write 2 personal statements, explore both types of programs, and then decide later.

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Thanks! Would it still be worth noting (if briefly) on an application, regardless?

Sure - definitely mention it

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

One of my professors said: If someone doesn't have a GPA/GRE that is or is very close to the mean of the 2007/08 (most recent) accepted applicant mean (available from disclosure data), then that person shouldn't both applying to the school

A different professor said: As long as your GPA is above 3.5 and GRE above 1200

A still different professor said: average the means for the full disclosure data from the past 5 years (what's usually put up), if you are very close to, at or above, only apply then.

Who is right? I know schools sometimes have a "you must have a minimum of X GPA and Y GRE scores".
But one of my professors said that means very very little.

1. Who is correct?

2. And how close is close enough?
2a). Is a 3.61 GPA to a 3.79 mean accepted GPA close enough?

None are correct, because every school has a different system, and every mentor within a school may be compelled to advocate for an applicant for different reasons. The average GPA online gives you a good idea of what you might need. But no 1 single piece of an application can be looked at in isolation from the rest of the application. A 3.61 from someone with awesome research exp is much better than a 3.79 from someone with none.

 

[xjnt]

Hi DrClinPsyAdvice and others,

I've spent hours reading this and other threads, and have to thank you - this is the kind of info applicants like me desperately seek. The generic advice published in guidebooks pales in comparison to these real-world practical discussions.

I was an English major and Psych minor, with an undergrad slacker's 3.3 GPA. I haven't taken the GRE's yet, but I've been practicing and get mid-1400's on practice tests.

I worked in book publishing in Manhattan for 3 years out of college, and did well - won a performance award, and received promotions. As I began to pull myself out of my slacker's trench, I decided it wasn't the job for me. I recently quit and moved back home with the intention of pursuing an advanced degree in Psychology. I was actually listening to Berkeley Psych lecture podcasts on the subway, instead of reading books...It was an obvious choice once I considered it.

I have no research experience, and realize that this completely precludes me from PhD programs. However, my primary interest is research into treatment of paraphiliacs and sex offenders, with a bit of clinical practice too - how I'm going to phrase that in a PS is an entirely different worry - and after a lot of reading, I'm sure that a PhD is the degree I should pursue.

I want to enter into a good, funded program as soon as possible. Preferably, to begin Fall 2010. That means, from right now, I have just over a year to start from essentially nothing (except considerably above-average GRE's) and build myself up, and I'm willing to do whatever it takes - if only I could figure out what that is.

Before reading through this forum, my idea was to get a speedy MA in Clinical/Counseling Psych from a nearby college, get a 4.0 to offset my undergrad grades, and either volunteer or work as an aide at the local state psychiatric hospital. Now, wizened by SDN, I realize that I certainly have to get some research work under my belt. But I don't understand how I might do that. All research assistant jobs seem to be for undergrads of that particular university, or those with previous experience. The university I attended is in another state.

Do you have any suggestions on my best plan of attack? Is the MA in Clinical/Counseling still a good idea, considering my GPA, even if it's a more licensure-based program (as all Psych MA's in my region seem to be)? Would the little bit of research I could do on the path to the MA be "good enough", or do I need to try a different tactic altogether?

Thanks again.

 

[deleted176373]

Hi DrClinPsyAdvice and others,

Do you have any suggestions on my best plan of attack? Is the MA in Clinical/Counseling still a good idea, considering my GPA, even if it's a more licensure-based program (as all Psych MA's in my region seem to be)? Would the little bit of research I could do on the path to the MA be "good enough", or do I need to try a different tactic altogether?

Thanks again.

One option is to get a M.A. in experimental psych and then see if you can get some volunteer or paid experience working a clinical population along the way. There is nothing wrong with a terminal masters in Clinical/Counseling as long as the program offers the opportunity to do research (many do.)

Obviously a M.A. in experimental as a way of building your research skills is one powerful way to show that you have the research background to be competitive, but it's not the only way. There are a myriad of ways to accomplish your goal here and using a masters in any of the Psychology sub-specialties can get you there provided you build an experience that shows your desire to move towards a Ph.D. in clinical and reflects your ability to perform at a high level in your scholarly pursuits.

Obviously one thing to consider in a Masters program is the ability of the program to place their students in competitive Ph.D. programs. You will find that some programs are more successful than others.

Mark

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Hi DrClinPsyAdvice and others,

I've spent hours reading this and other threads, and have to thank you - this is the kind of info applicants like me desperately seek. The generic advice published in guidebooks pales in comparison to these real-world practical discussions.

I was an English major and Psych minor, with an undergrad slacker's 3.3 GPA. I haven't taken the GRE's yet, but I've been practicing and get mid-1400's on practice tests.

I worked in book publishing in Manhattan for 3 years out of college, and did well - won a performance award, and received promotions. As I began to pull myself out of my slacker's trench, I decided it wasn't the job for me. I recently quit and moved back home with the intention of pursuing an advanced degree in Psychology. I was actually listening to Berkeley Psych lecture podcasts on the subway, instead of reading books...It was an obvious choice once I considered it.

I have no research experience, and realize that this completely precludes me from PhD programs. However, my primary interest is research into treatment of paraphiliacs and sex offenders, with a bit of clinical practice too - how I'm going to phrase that in a PS is an entirely different worry - and after a lot of reading, I'm sure that a PhD is the degree I should pursue.

I want to enter into a good, funded program as soon as possible. Preferably, to begin Fall 2010. That means, from right now, I have just over a year to start from essentially nothing (except considerably above-average GRE's) and build myself up, and I'm willing to do whatever it takes - if only I could figure out what that is.

Before reading through this forum, my idea was to get a speedy MA in Clinical/Counseling Psych from a nearby college, get a 4.0 to offset my undergrad grades, and either volunteer or work as an aide at the local state psychiatric hospital. Now, wizened by SDN, I realize that I certainly have to get some research work under my belt. But I don't understand how I might do that. All research assistant jobs seem to be for undergrads of that particular university, or those with previous experience. The university I attended is in another state.

Do you have any suggestions on my best plan of attack? Is the MA in Clinical/Counseling still a good idea, considering my GPA, even if it's a more licensure-based program (as all Psych MA's in my region seem to be)? Would the little bit of research I could do on the path to the MA be "good enough", or do I need to try a different tactic altogether?

Thanks again.

A Masters program would help you get research experience. But it may not be the easiest and best way to get it.

You can simply look up professors in your local area and write to them with a request to volunteer. There does not need to be a formal job listing, and the positions do not always go to undergrads from that university. This is a good time to make contact since it is the summer and you will get professors' attention a little easier (if they are in town).

 

[scienceisbeauty]

Dr.ClinPsy, (sorry for the length but your advice is VERY important to me)

You have mentioned in your previous postings that having publications is not the be all and end all , and of course, it is not. You have also mentioned that having one's name on a publication may simply reflect the generosity of a supervisor.
Given this:

I am currently in the process of studying for my GRE. I will be writing Aug 30th.

I have also 5 projects (papers) on the go, all of which are taking up sufficient time.
This new paper I'm undertaking, I will be 3rd author or 4th author on. Will be submitted in Aug.
I will have 2nd authorship, 2nd authorship, 1st authorship, and 1st authorship on the other the other papers. Will be submitted in July, Oct, Sept (respectively)

Given that I really suck at math, is it worth it to invest my time on a paper I will be 3rd or 4th author on? At a top clinical research prgm, Can a 550 math score (possible) be forgiven for a 3rd author publication? Or 1st, or 2nd authored pub for that matter...

I work really really really hard at research...but if professors are going to think oh, she's just on a paper because she marked some stuff...and ran some Ps (say I don't get a letter from the supervisor in question)...then that makes me so sad.
P.S. - the papers might get rejected sure but even still...

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Dr.ClinPsy, (sorry for the length but your advice is VERY important to me)

You have mentioned in your previous postings that having publications is not the be all and end all , and of course, it is not. You have also mentioned that having one's name on a publication may simply reflect the generosity of a supervisor.
Given this:

I am currently in the process of studying for my GRE. I will be writing Aug 30th.

I have also 5 projects (papers) on the go, all of which are taking up sufficient time.
This new paper I'm undertaking, I will be 3rd author or 4th author on. Will be submitted in Aug.
I will have 2nd authorship, 2nd authorship, 1st authorship, and 1st authorship on the other the other papers. Will be submitted in July, Oct, Sept (respectively)

Given that I really suck at math, is it worth it to invest my time on a paper I will be 3rd or 4th author on? At a top clinical research prgm, Can a 550 math score (possible) be forgiven for a 3rd author publication? Or 1st, or 2nd authored pub for that matter...

I work really really really hard at research...but if professors are going to think oh, she's just on a paper because she marked some stuff...and ran some Ps (say I don't get a letter from the supervisor in question)...then that makes me so sad.
P.S. - the papers might get rejected sure but even still...

Given how many pubs you have (or will have), I think it would be worth sacrificing one to invest the time in improving your GRE score instead. If the GRE score isn't high enough, it may be tough for folks to get to the part of your application that has the pubs at all.

 

[scienceisbeauty]

I'm a bit perplexed now. Ok. So, you know how you have mentioned that applications are screened to see that they meet the min crit in terms of GRE and grades?
But you also said that it's not strictly an above or below thing - - "no single info can be looked at in isolation"

I have a 3.61 CGPA, in my last two yrs 3.83 GPA. I have, I think, really solid research experience. I haven't taken my GRE yet

So, I want a school that has 3.78 average entrance GPA.

From your last post you said it's better to shirk the potential 3rd author pub and work on getting a high GRE score. You said I should do that otherwise it's possible my application might not get looked at enough to get to the pubs.
But then aren't schools looking at things like the GRE in isolation - if they won't look at my application (for my awesome research experience) if I have a bad GRE score?.

I only think my math will be bad...I think my verbal will be fine.

Thanks muchly,

ScienceIisBeauty

 

[ktwallis]

wow. no offense, but you really need to chill out scienceisbeauty

there are no absolutes, let the DR breathe

 

[cara susanna]

I think you just have to make the cutoff (usually 1200). Then your other stuff will get looked at.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though, I'm certainly not an admissions person.

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I'm a bit perplexed now. Ok. So, you know how you have mentioned that applications are screened to see that they meet the min crit in terms of GRE and grades?
But you also said that it's not strictly an above or below thing - - "no single info can be looked at in isolation"

I have a 3.61 CGPA, in my last two yrs 3.83 GPA. I have, I think, really solid research experience. I haven't taken my GRE yet

So, I want a school that has 3.78 average entrance GPA.

From your last post you said it's better to shirk the potential 3rd author pub and work on getting a high GRE score. You said I should do that otherwise it's possible my application might not get looked at enough to get to the pubs.
But then aren't schools looking at things like the GRE in isolation - if they won't look at my application (for my awesome research experience) if I have a bad GRE score?.

I only think my math will be bad...I think my verbal will be fine.

Thanks muchly,

ScienceIisBeauty

Sorry for the confusion. If the GRE, GPA, and undergrad institution are well below standards, it will be hard for research experiences to make the difference. But if they are close, then things can balance out. It sounds like you have good research experience already, so it will be important to make sure the GRE is high enough to get past the first stage.

In other words, with a score between 1000-1100, you would not get into a top program no matter how many pubs you have. But with a score closer to the program averages (1200, 1300), then a committee will take a closer look at research exp.

 

[scienceisbeauty]

wow. no offense, but you really need to chill out scienceisbeauty

there are no absolutes, let the DR breathe

I didn't mean to upset him (I don't think I did) - and I was confused! Not stressed!
No one had asked something for a while, and I may as well ask if I'm confused than sit baffled eh?
I really didn't mean to come off as upset at all.
I have a habit of bolding the questions I have so that they are clear to identify. I meant no offense whatsoever. I love the DCT for being so nice and answering our questions.
Plus I'm very careful about reading the posts now and making sure that I don't ask something someone has already asked.

 

[lavalubby111]

I know a student working in a professor's lab (not my lab) who has been "inventing" data. I know this for certain.
Not too much detail, but it's an eye tracking paradigm in the general sense and this student is making up RTs and other data because the data is not examined except for by him.
I told him that it's awful to do that. He said no one would find out.

I went to a lab meeting (was an open lab meeting). His supervisor wants to publish the study.

What should I do? What is the ethical thing I should do? If I tell his supervisor I will get him in a lot of trouble and the supervisor probably won't write him a LOR (almost obviously) and this guy REALLY wants to go to grad school in I think the Clinical field.

Please help?

Thanx, LL111

 

[Ollie123]

What should I do? What is the ethical thing I should do? If I tell his supervisor I will get him in a lot of trouble and the supervisor probably won't write him a LOR (almost obviously) and this guy REALLY wants to go to grad school in I think the Clinical field.

Just my opinion, but to hell with what he wants. He could, and should be kicked out of undergrad without a degree, let alone allowed anywhere near a graduate school. LORs are the least of his worries.

I don't know if he personally would be held responsible (I doubt it), but to put in perspective, people have been put in prison for fabricating data if it later gets used in a grant application.

Assuming it is absolutely 100% certain this person is fabricating data, I'd go through a trusted source at the university. Another professor, an advisor, administrator, whatever. You absolutely should blow the whistle on this person though. I have precisely zero sympathy for people like that.