Advice from Prof for Applicants to PhD Programs

[JockNerd]

Just my opinion, but to hell with what he wants. He could, and should be kicked out of undergrad without a degree, let alone allowed anywhere near a graduate school. LORs are the least of his worries.

I don't know if he personally would be held responsible (I doubt it), but to put in perspective, people have been put in prison for fabricating data if it later gets used in a grant application.

Assuming it is absolutely 100% certain this person is fabricating data, I'd go through a trusted source at the university. Another professor, an advisor, administrator, whatever. You absolutely should blow the whistle on this person though. I have precisely zero sympathy for people like that.

I agree. That's reprehensible behavior. Definitely tell someone; I'd go directly to the prof and make it clear that you're doing it out of an interest to protect him/her in the future, not rat someone out.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[lavalubby111]

I think I should probably tell on him, as the posters so far have suggested ...but say if I don't tell on him -- could Iget in trouble? Given that I know the whole thing is for sure a farce? I go to the university, but I don't work in his lab. Is it even my business? What happens if I feign ignorance?

I hate knowing. I wish he hadn't...been so flippent about the whole thing. For those who asked, I'm absolutely 100% certain that he is making up data.

Also, not that it really makes any difference, but this study doesn't involve a sensitive/vulnerable population

And another thing: if I do tell on him, how do I do this? Schedule a meeting with his advisor? Tell my advisor? I HATE THIS.

LL111

 

[Ollie123]

It is your business so far as you are a member of the field and want to uphold the standards of the profession.

Can you get in trouble for feigning ignorance? Maybe - some schools have policies requiring students to report things like this. That's speaking strictly legally. Morally, I don't think whether or not you get in trouble for not telling should even be a consideration.

If you don't, and this study gets published, it could lead to a lot of scientists wasting alot of time, and potentially taxpayer money, pursuing lines of research that are based on fabricated data. Doesn't matter what population its with - doesn't even matter that he's working with people, my feelings would be the same if he was working with animals, plants, or computer circuits.

Like I said before, I'd find a trusted source you can ask, and they can hopefully direct you to appropriate channels to get this information out there. Its unfortunate you have to be the one to do this, but on the other hand, you have the potential to make a very large contribution to this department. If this study gets published and this gets found out later, that professor could have his entire career flushed down the toilet even if it he/she wasn't the one actually responsible.

 

[JockNerd]

I think I should probably tell on him, as the posters so far have suggested ...but say if I don't tell on him -- could Iget in trouble? Given that I know the whole thing is for sure a farce? I go to the university, but I don't work in his lab. Is it even my business? What happens if I feign ignorance?

I hate knowing. I wish he hadn't...been so flippent about the whole thing. For those who asked, I'm absolutely 100% certain that he is making up data.

Also, not that it really makes any difference, but this study doesn't involve a sensitive/vulnerable population

And another thing: if I do tell on him, how do I do this? Schedule a meeting with his advisor? Tell my advisor? I HATE THIS.

LL111

Your university ombudsman can help you figure out who to talk to. I'd go there first.

 

[deleted176373]

I think I should probably tell on him, as the posters so far have suggested ...but say if I don't tell on him -- could Iget in trouble? Given that I know the whole thing is for sure a farce? I go to the university, but I don't work in his lab. Is it even my business? What happens if I feign ignorance?

LL111

You have an ethical obligation to put a stop to this. Fabrication of data could cause your school a great deal of harm, and thereby you a great deal of harm. There are so many ways that this can become much worse, especially if it becomes published!

You do not have an obligation to expose yourself to reprisals. You can and should find someone who is willing to protect your identity (at least initially) while this is handled. Make sure that you have documentation dating the discussions and detailing the allegations. Your written notes are VERY important. They show that you are taking this seriously and documenting your findings and evidence.

This person has no reason to continue on to Doctoral studies, as falsifying data is perhaps a researchers greatest possible sin.

Mark

PS - Yes, if it can be proved that you deliberately withheld information about "cheating", which this is, then you might be subject to your university's honor code (your mileage may vary.)

For instance in UTSA's code of student conduct:

Disciplinary proceedings may be initiated against any student for any of the following acts or violations:

21. failure to notify University authorities of personal knowledge of any violation of the Student Code of Conduct;

Then again, UTSA plagiarized their honor code from BYU. Nice, eh?

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I know a student working in a professor's lab (not my lab) who has been "inventing" data. I know this for certain.
Not too much detail, but it's an eye tracking paradigm in the general sense and this student is making up RTs and other data because the data is not examined except for by him.
I told him that it's awful to do that. He said no one would find out.

I went to a lab meeting (was an open lab meeting). His supervisor wants to publish the study.

What should I do? What is the ethical thing I should do? If I tell his supervisor I will get him in a lot of trouble and the supervisor probably won't write him a LOR (almost obviously) and this guy REALLY wants to go to grad school in I think the Clinical field.

Please help?

Thanx, LL111

This is a horrible situation that you have unfortunately been placed in the middle of. I am afraid that it is now something you must act on - this is an ethical atrocity and you're knowledge of it requires action.

You will need a faculty advocate to work with you on this. I suggest that you speak with a trusted faculty member about this issue, and have that person advise you, and/or assist you, in notifying the faculty member whose research is involved. It will be important for someone to be your advocate in this process, and for you to be protected.

Good luck,

 

[cara susanna]

Maybe you should tell the person in whose lab you are working and see what he/she advises you to do? That's what I would probably do in this situation.

 

[deleted176373]

This is a horrible situation that you have unfortunately been placed in the middle of. I am afraid that it is now something you must act on - this is an ethical atrocity and you're knowledge of it requires action.

You will need a faculty advocate to work with you on this. I suggest that you speak with a trusted faculty member about this issue, and have that person advise you, and/or assist you, in notifying the faculty member whose research is involved. It will be important for someone to be your advocate in this process, and for you to be protected.

Good luck,

DCT,

While we both agree that LL111 must take action, how would anonymous notification stand-up provided it was done by registered mail (having receipts to prove that notification was made) as opposed to going directly to a faculty member in the department. I think the farther LL111 gets away from this mess, the better.

Mark

 

[lavalubby111]

How am I supposed to obtain this?? The numbers he has forged, no one would know...because it's a study where numbers are noted via observation and no other observation (other than his, are there)
-- so if I accuse him, but have no proof other than coversations ...then...it might blow up in my face.

I really want to distance myself from this entire thing, and I was even so scared to post on here.
*I* want to go to graduate school. If I say nothing and someone found out I knew...I'd get in trouble yes? If I tell a faculty supervisor then that means I have to disclose I knew this for ~7 mo, but because I didn't know what to do (at that time I was newborn to all this research stuff) and din't know how bad it was. But only because I recently went to an open lab meeting...and have been involved in research now for longer...I know the consequences of forging data. AND and that time, I knew but really didn't know all that much...and plus it's not like I thought about it everyday or remembered everyday... just recently cuz of the publication thing.....
And I could lie and say I just found out like yesterday, but that would suck and that would also be wrong right?

The state I live in requires all party consent for taping coversations.
I certainly don't have the $$ to hire a lawyer or anything....

Could I casually direct a faculty member to this site? Tell them my username. Ask hypothetically?
Or as Mark suggested, send via mail registered but anonymously?

:S :S

 

[lukeb]

Dr. ClinPsyAdvice,

Your advice here is an extremely valuable resource. I'm thankful for it!

My question:

How much of a disadvantage would it be to have letters from related faculty? I got involved with research very early on with one prof, and now that I am thinking of diversifying my research experience, it just so happens that her husband who is also faculty is doing the most interesting research. I realize that it may be ideal to have letters from people not in the same household. From your point of view, would it be a factor at all?

 

[Ollie123]

How am I supposed to obtain this?? The numbers he has forged, no one would know...because it's a study where numbers are noted via observation and no other observation (other than his, are there)
-- so if I accuse him, but have no proof other than coversations ...then...it might blow up in my face.

I really want to distance myself from this entire thing, and I was even so scared to post on here.
*I* want to go to graduate school. If I say nothing and someone found out I knew...I'd get in trouble yes? If I tell a faculty supervisor then that means I have to disclose I knew this for ~7 mo, but because I didn't know what to do (at that time I was newborn to all this research stuff) and din't know how bad it was. But only because I recently went to an open lab meeting...and have been involved in research now for longer...I know the consequences of forging data. AND and that time, I knew but really didn't know all that much...and plus it's not like I thought about it everyday or remembered everyday... just recently cuz of the publication thing.....
And I could lie and say I just found out like yesterday, but that would suck and that would also be wrong right?

The state I live in requires all party consent for taping coversations.
I certainly don't have the $$ to hire a lawyer or anything....

Could I casually direct a faculty member to this site? Tell them my username. Ask hypothetically?
Or as Mark suggested, send via mail registered but anonymously?

:S :S

I don't think you're anywhere approaching on the point you'd need a lawyer. If it was the FACULTY member you were trying to get in trouble, I might feel differently, but this is another undergrad. Like we've said, go to a trusted source. University ombudsman, like JN said earlier, is probably a great starting point.

If I was that faculty member, I would be grateful if you brought this up because its them who will have to take the fall on this one. Its not a pretty situation, but you are not the guilty party here. You're trying to keep the faculty safe here - that is a department service. No decent person is going to be mad at YOU for bringing this up.

As an aside - what the hell kind of research doesn't get some kind of inter-rater reliability on something as complex as eye tracking? They weren't even video-taping it, just doing live fly-by-wire eye tracking?

I'm guessing that there IS evidence that you don't know about but the faculty member can use to check into it, otherwise I have a few more reasons this study shouldn't get published on top of the fabricated data

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

How am I supposed to obtain this?? The numbers he has forged, no one would know...because it's a study where numbers are noted via observation and no other observation (other than his, are there)
-- so if I accuse him, but have no proof other than coversations ...then...it might blow up in my face.

I really want to distance myself from this entire thing, and I was even so scared to post on here.
*I* want to go to graduate school. If I say nothing and someone found out I knew...I'd get in trouble yes? If I tell a faculty supervisor then that means I have to disclose I knew this for ~7 mo, but because I didn't know what to do (at that time I was newborn to all this research stuff) and din't know how bad it was. But only because I recently went to an open lab meeting...and have been involved in research now for longer...I know the consequences of forging data. AND and that time, I knew but really didn't know all that much...and plus it's not like I thought about it everyday or remembered everyday... just recently cuz of the publication thing.....
And I could lie and say I just found out like yesterday, but that would suck and that would also be wrong right?

The state I live in requires all party consent for taping coversations.
I certainly don't have the $$ to hire a lawyer or anything....

Could I casually direct a faculty member to this site? Tell them my username. Ask hypothetically?
Or as Mark suggested, send via mail registered but anonymously?

:S :S

I doubt a lawyer or certified mail is necessary. And I would doubt that anyone would raise questions about why you have brought this up, and why it did not come up sooner. The faculty member whose research is being affected will be grateful to hear the news before it is too late (i.e., before they have started analyzing/publishing). But because there is a hierarchy implicitly within any faculty-student interaction, it will be good for another faculty member to be present with your interests in mind. I am not sure that involvement by university administration is a terrific idea, only because it will embarrass the faculty member and place her/him in a very uncomfortable situation at the university level.

As for an anonymous note, I can only say that a student in an undergrad class of mine once sent me an anonymous note about another student who was cheating during a test. I had mixed feelings about this. Mostly, I was very appreciative for the information and I took it very seriously. However, it was awkward to approach the potential cheater without more concrete info (and since the note was anonymous, I was not able to probe for more info or to ask some clarification questions). But again, although it placed me in an uncomfortable situation, it did give me the info I needed to act and I did take it seriously.

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Dr. ClinPsyAdvice,

Your advice here is an extremely valuable resource. I'm thankful for it!

My question:

How much of a disadvantage would it be to have letters from related faculty? I got involved with research very early on with one prof, and now that I am thinking of diversifying my research experience, it just so happens that her husband who is also faculty is doing the most interesting research. I realize that it may be ideal to have letters from people not in the same household. From your point of view, would it be a factor at all?

I don't think this is a factor. People will understand that these are two separate investigators and you have had two different experiences.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I agree with speaking with a trusted faculty member.

As for related faculty member.....I wouldn't see that as a problem. I've seen both couples on the same faculty, and also unrelated profs with the same last night (Smith, Jones, etc). As long as they right good LOR's, that is what matters in the end.

 

[lavalubby111]

I told. I told my supervisor. She came to the lab. I must have looked simply awful because she asked me what was wrong. I don't know what came over me...but I started tearing up. I was scared and nervous. She was really sweet about the matter. I told her everything, even when I was saying it, I was telling myself to shut up but I dunno. I told her I didn't want this to ruin my chances for grad school because I hadn't said anything 7 mo ago...and ...I didn't know what to do anymore.
His supervisor was also in that day so she and I went upstairs and she knocked on his door while I waited outside in the psych lounge. Then they called me in. I told everything and well it's done. It was just awful. I'm glad its over. Like a dentist appointment but x 100 worse.
I am not in trouble really. I dunno. This was awful. I cried. (I felt like SUCH a loser - I haven't cried about anything in years) His supervisor said he was "really proud of me". I don't know what's going to happen to him.
I didn't have proof at all. Not a shred. Except conversations with him. But I guess his supervisor saw just how upset I was. So that's what happened.

What happens to ppl like him? He's already graduated. Could he still go to grad school if he doesn't ask for a letter from his supervisor and asks other people instead do you think?

Thanks Dr.ClinPsyAdvice and all the rest of you's - your advices and responses really helped.

Oh and it's not OVER OVER, just the telling his supervisor part is over...his supervisor said he'd have to talk to me a bit after he talked to him.

 

[deleted176373]

I'm proud of you, that took guts. I hope they rescind his credentials.

Mark

 

[cara susanna]

It sounds like they were really understanding and that they believed you, so here's hoping for the best.

 

[Ollie123]

I'm proud of you, that took guts. I hope they rescind his credentials.

Mark

Even if they don't - word on things like this gets out quick. ESPECIALLY if he's applying to a related area to the one he was fabricating data in.

I too am hoping they throw his degree in the shredder, but unless he started this before he graduated I'm not sure they can. Regardless he definitely cost himself pretty seriously come application time.

Good for you for letting the cat out of the bag. We need more whistle blowers, and stories like this make me wonder how much research is out there that no one ever did catch.

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I told. I told my supervisor. She came to the lab. I must have looked simply awful because she asked me what was wrong. I don't know what came over me...but I started tearing up. I was scared and nervous. She was really sweet about the matter. I told her everything, even when I was saying it, I was telling myself to shut up but I dunno. I told her I didn't want this to ruin my chances for grad school because I hadn't said anything 7 mo ago...and ...I didn't know what to do anymore.
His supervisor was also in that day so she and I went upstairs and she knocked on his door while I waited outside in the psych lounge. Then they called me in. I told everything and well it's done. It was just awful. I'm glad its over. Like a dentist appointment but x 100 worse.
I am not in trouble really. I dunno. This was awful. I cried. (I felt like SUCH a loser - I haven't cried about anything in years) His supervisor said he was "really proud of me". I don't know what's going to happen to him.
I didn't have proof at all. Not a shred. Except conversations with him. But I guess his supervisor saw just how upset I was. So that's what happened.

What happens to ppl like him? He's already graduated. Could he still go to grad school if he doesn't ask for a letter from his supervisor and asks other people instead do you think?

Thanks Dr.ClinPsyAdvice and all the rest of you's - your advices and responses really helped.

Oh and it's not OVER OVER, just the telling his supervisor part is over...his supervisor said he'd have to talk to me a bit after he talked to him.

Congrats on tackling this incredibly challenging situation so professionally. Well done.

 

[scienceisbeauty]

One of the professors I'm interested in working with is a prolific writer...publications are many. But of all the publications, he's mostly first-authored with his graduate students taking a back seat.
So, would this mean if I went to work with him... it'd be like this too?

Q: Can you judge the authorship "selfishness" of supervisors with cues like this?

I ask because one of the other profs I want to work with has some undergrads as first authors...so ... just makes me think a bit.

Both profs in question are at the same level of professorship, and when I checked "current grants" seems like about the same $$, or at least no radical diffs. Also, btwn the two there's a difference of 1 in the number of grad students.

Thanks Dr.ClinPsy!

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

One of the professors I'm interested in working with is a prolific writer...publications are many. But of all the publications, he's mostly first-authored with his graduate students taking a back seat.
So, would this mean if I went to work with him... it'd be like this too?

Q: Can you judge the authorship "selfishness" of supervisors with cues like this?

I ask because one of the other profs I want to work with has some undergrads as first authors...so ... just makes me think a bit.

Both profs in question are at the same level of professorship, and when I checked "current grants" seems like about the same $$, or at least no radical diffs. Also, btwn the two there's a difference of 1 in the number of grad students.

Thanks Dr.ClinPsy!

This may indeed be a real different in mentor styles that you have picked up on. But there also may be some logical explanation. It is probably worth applying to both, and if you get to the interview stage, politely ask their grad students to tell you more about the faculty members' mentoring style.

 

[Terapueta24]

Hello!

First of all thanks for all of the advice. I am in the 2nd year of applications and it took me awhile to give it another chance but I am prepared to do it better this time and feel like I could be a strong canidate (3.9 GPA, 1340 GRE, 770 psych GRE, 3 years as an RA in undergrad, 2 poster presentations, 3 years clinical experience in a center associated with a research university, fluency in Spanish and cultural understanding due to working abroad). I think that last year I focused too much on my clinical experience and not enough on my desire to research and am planning on changing that but I have a couple of other questions to make me a stronger applicant...

1. One of my LOR last year came from my clinical supervisor but she does not have a PhD, she showed me the letter and it was very flattering but maybe should I not use her again?

2. I am very interested in early childhood emotional and behavioral disorders and it looks like I will be able to be a volunteer RA in a prestigious lab in the field this fall but I don't feel like the professors will know me well enough to ask for a LOR. Should I still ask even if they have only worked with me for a month?

3. What is the best way to put myself in contact with my POI before I send in my application which doesn't make me seem pushy or annoying?

4. My official title at my clinical job included being a RA because it was with a research university, but the research was informal evaluations of treatment. Should I still include this on my CV and in my PS?

5. As for applying to the same schools again... it looks like it is recommended but do you mention in your PS that you applied before? How do you know if the application fee is wavered the second year around?

Thank you so much for considering these rather personal situations, I realize that was a lot of questions

 

[theSteppenwolf]

I really tried to look at every post to avoid repeating questions. I did not see my questions so I will proceed.

I'd like to add my thanks to the multitudes you've already received. My question is about the strength of your undergrad school. I'm an older student. I've been working full time and part time while trying to complete my degree. This of course means that I don't really have the ability to finish at a top tier undergrad program like the one I started at. Will coming out of a less than stellar school hinder me? Also because I am older (I'll be 37 when I begin applying to grad school), will not having any formal research experience kill my chances? I do have a little experience from my time as a school administrator at a proprietary school, but nothing formal.

 

[deleted176373]

I really tried to look at every post to avoid repeating questions. I did not see my questions so I will proceed.

I'd like to add my thanks to the multitudes you've already received. My question is about the strength of your undergrad school. I'm an older student. I've been working full time and part time while trying to complete my degree. This of course means that I don't really have the ability to finish at a top tier undergrad program like the one I started at. Will coming out of a less than stellar school hinder me? Also because I am older (I'll be 37 when I begin applying to grad school), will not having any formal research experience kill my chances? I do have a little experience from my time as a school administrator at a proprietary school, but nothing formal.

You need to volunteer for research in a lab, it is a critical thing.

I was in the same boat as you (Graduated at 39 from UTSA.) University of Texas at San Antonio is far less than a Tier I program, hell, it may not be even in a tier. This did not prevent me from getting interviews at VERY competitive programs. I did not get interviews at some very top programs but that I believe was due to a lack of research experience more than anything.

For instance, I did not get interviews from University of Texas - Austin(16), Duke(9), or Yale(6). I did however get interviews from University of Kansas (25), University of Alabama(50), Baylor(83), Texas A&M(71), Michigan State(42), University of Maine(83), and others. I accepted at USUHS, which I felt was the best fit for me and ranked reasonably well.

USUHS was ranked 92 according to U.S. News and World Report.

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/grad/cps/search/page+4

I was accepted by U of Maine(83), Texas A&M (71), and USUHS (92). All are very good programs and I was competitive at all my interviews. As you can see even attending a very low end university did not keep me from being competitive. Now the rankings are kind of sketchy, while they are good generalizations they don't tell the whole story. I picked USUHS despite being ranked lowest and I am incredibly happy with my program, it's just incredible. That's how you want to feel about the program you eventually get into.

Mark

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Hello!

First of all thanks for all of the advice. I am in the 2nd year of applications and it took me awhile to give it another chance but I am prepared to do it better this time and feel like I could be a strong canidate (3.9 GPA, 1340 GRE, 770 psych GRE, 3 years as an RA in undergrad, 2 poster presentations, 3 years clinical experience in a center associated with a research university, fluency in Spanish and cultural understanding due to working abroad). I think that last year I focused too much on my clinical experience and not enough on my desire to research and am planning on changing that but I have a couple of other questions to make me a stronger applicant...

1. One of my LOR last year came from my clinical supervisor but she does not have a PhD, she showed me the letter and it was very flattering but maybe should I not use her again?

2. I am very interested in early childhood emotional and behavioral disorders and it looks like I will be able to be a volunteer RA in a prestigious lab in the field this fall but I don't feel like the professors will know me well enough to ask for a LOR. Should I still ask even if they have only worked with me for a month?

3. What is the best way to put myself in contact with my POI before I send in my application which doesn't make me seem pushy or annoying?

4. My official title at my clinical job included being a RA because it was with a research university, but the research was informal evaluations of treatment. Should I still include this on my CV and in my PS?

5. As for applying to the same schools again... it looks like it is recommended but do you mention in your PS that you applied before? How do you know if the application fee is wavered the second year around?

Thank you so much for considering these rather personal situations, I realize that was a lot of questions

Lots of questions! Ok, let's see...

1. I'd stick with PhD letters, but certainly include this other one as an extra.

2. Yes, ask for a letter, and if they feel they can write one, they will. If it is in a related area of research, it may be worth it

3. You really don't need to get in touch with someone before applying. Most think it will help them increase their application's visibility, but it rarely does. I'd suggest contacting someone only if you have a real question with a specific answer (not just to ask something that you could have learned from their website, or from their articles).

4. Sure, include all relevant experience on the CV. In the PS, discuss what you learned from this experience, even if it was not an 'official' RA. If it helped you develop a scientist-mind, then it was valuable and can be described accordingly.

5. Probably no need to mention that you applied before. Not sure how to find out about the application fee. Probably will need to contact the grad school office itself, and it may vary from school to school.

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I really tried to look at every post to avoid repeating questions. I did not see my questions so I will proceed.

I'd like to add my thanks to the multitudes you've already received. My question is about the strength of your undergrad school. I'm an older student. I've been working full time and part time while trying to complete my degree. This of course means that I don't really have the ability to finish at a top tier undergrad program like the one I started at. Will coming out of a less than stellar school hinder me? Also because I am older (I'll be 37 when I begin applying to grad school), will not having any formal research experience kill my chances? I do have a little experience from my time as a school administrator at a proprietary school, but nothing formal.

For a PhD program, research experience will be absolutely critical. I strongly recommend getting this before applying. The prestige of your undergrad institution could be OK if your GPA and experience and fantastic.

 

[scienceisbeauty]

Oh Professor Clin Psy,

Today, my supervisor called me and her grad school into her office. Now, I'm not going to repeat exactly, but she said that someone 'stole' our research ideas. She said they got it accepted for publication.
She said that we can't submit our paper anymore...something about bad blood...
I don't get this. Even if something has been done and published, can't the next person reframe a paper as a replication plus addition of a different factor?

I feel like we worked hard at this (her grad student and I). Her grad student was really ticked off...I was less upset even though I had worked so hard. It seems a bit silly, I didn't know these things happen. Dr CP, I know you can't tease out specifics...but...could this happen to me in grad school too? What to do about this? It seems a bit silly not to publish something just because 'we weren't first', 'because she doesn't like the other researcher' We worked so hard at a paper. It seems unfair. It seems such a waste!

I am a bit sad.

Is it worth to say anything at all or is her reasoning logical? Even if they did our research q - It isn't as if that published paper solved some mystery that now is solved for good. I don't think any paper can be...right?

 

[Mr Violin]

Oh Professor Clin Psy,

Today, my supervisor called me and her grad school into her office. Now, I'm not going to repeat exactly, but she said that someone 'stole' our research ideas. She said they got it accepted for publication.
She said that we can't submit our paper anymore...something about bad blood...
I don't get this. Even if something has been done and published, can't the next person reframe a paper as a replication plus addition of a different factor?

I feel like we worked hard at this (her grad student and I). Her grad student was really ticked off...I was less upset even though I had worked so hard. It seems a bit silly, I didn't know these things happen. Dr CP, I know you can't tease out specifics...but...could this happen to me in grad school too? What to do about this? It seems a bit silly not to publish something just because 'we weren't first', 'because she doesn't like the other researcher' We worked so hard at a paper. It seems unfair. It seems such a waste!

I am a bit sad.

Is it worth to say anything at all or is her reasoning logical? Even if they did our research q - It isn't as if that published paper solved some mystery that now is solved for good. I don't think any paper can be...right?

I am not going to try and answer this but I just wanted to throw in my two pennies on the issue.

I think in an ideal world research should be replicated more than it probably is. It is not a bad thing; it attempts to make sure a study was statistically sound, not due to random sampling, small tweaks may be made to better contol for potential confounds or new facts, etc.

Realistically though, I think most journals like to publish novel and interesting things which gives quite a lot of incentive for researchers to do work that is novel. There is also the boring factor: who wants to sit there and do over someone elses research to test its accuracy when they could be studying things that are beyond our current understanding of a topic!

 

[Boston2k]

Oh Professor Clin Psy,

Today, my supervisor called me and her grad school into her office. Now, I'm not going to repeat exactly, but she said that someone 'stole' our research ideas. She said they got it accepted for publication.
She said that we can't submit our paper anymore...something about bad blood...
I don't get this. Even if something has been done and published, can't the next person reframe a paper as a replication plus addition of a different factor?

I feel like we worked hard at this (her grad student and I). Her grad student was really ticked off...I was less upset even though I had worked so hard. It seems a bit silly, I didn't know these things happen. Dr CP, I know you can't tease out specifics...but...could this happen to me in grad school too? What to do about this? It seems a bit silly not to publish something just because 'we weren't first', 'because she doesn't like the other researcher' We worked so hard at a paper. It seems unfair. It seems such a waste!

I am a bit sad.

Is it worth to say anything at all or is her reasoning logical? Even if they did our research q - It isn't as if that published paper solved some mystery that now is solved for good. I don't think any paper can be...right?

I agree with Mr. Violin in that replications are undervalued (add some examples of non-significant results to that category as well, but that is a matter for another day). Our sample sizes are often dwarfed by those in other fields (e.g., epidemiology). You can combine your data with the other paper into a mini-meta-analysis (combined effect sizes would be a nice additional calculation and contribution to the literature), discuss the differences between your studies, etc. I had a similar situation with some of my work and was vexed at first as well, but really you can just improve on their work and add more data and a more polished paper to the literature. You may have to downgrade journals some, but if it's quality work, I don't see why you couldn't find a respectable journal. Basically, it appears to me (for whatever that is worth) that they've made it a little more difficult for you, but the project is not dead by any means.

 

[JockNerd]

A pure replication is going to have a rough time getting published anywhere. But if you're looking at the topic in a slightly different way, use a different and special population, or you incorporate another important factor, that would be a big plus.

I also just wanted to point out that it doesn't sound like your idea was "stolen" if the other people are already at publication; that has pretty negative connotations. You were "scooped."

 

[scienceisbeauty]

Yeah, I didn't want to use stolen, but - My supervisor put it in those words. I just put it as she did. In any case, I didn't give too much detail. What it was, was that those researchers were investigating one thing and we were investigating another.
They found out about our thing, and because they had the population necessary it was simple enough to add it to their procedure. So I think that's why my supervisor said they stole it.
She said there's bad blood.

That's all. But yes even still we ARE looking at it in a different way from what she told us they did. But regardless, she doesn't want to submit it (even though we were at the write up part) because she says we're not going to get due prestige. I don't know. I really don't understand. Why does 2nd have to be 2nd rate? Because even still we are looking at it in a different angle...So what if we're 'replicating'? We worked for 2 years on this study. It seems an awful waste of time and grant money. Isn't science SUPPOSED TO BE shared?

 

[cara susanna]

Sorry to hear that happened, science. I guess that's bound to happen in research, though.

 

[scienceisbeauty]

Professor ClinPsyAdvice,

A match between supervisor and student is of, I think, utmost importance as is the potential research productivity one may get from this match, right?
If this is the case, how specific should one's search for a supervisor be? What factors become important? Can one be too lenient too picky?

Thanks! Your help, as I'm sure you know, but I'll tell you again anyway, is so very much appreciated

SIB

 

[scienceisbeauty]

Sorry to hear that happened, science. I guess that's bound to happen in research, though.

Cara - Thanks for the condolences.

I shredded all the articles I'd printed and stuff I'd written. *SIGH* Then I shredded the data. It was sad. (I know I didn't have to shred the articles, I just like using the shredding machine).

The data tho, is still stored elsewhere (in case).

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Oh Professor Clin Psy,

Today, my supervisor called me and her grad school into her office. Now, I'm not going to repeat exactly, but she said that someone 'stole' our research ideas. She said they got it accepted for publication.
She said that we can't submit our paper anymore...something about bad blood...
I don't get this. Even if something has been done and published, can't the next person reframe a paper as a replication plus addition of a different factor?

I feel like we worked hard at this (her grad student and I). Her grad student was really ticked off...I was less upset even though I had worked so hard. It seems a bit silly, I didn't know these things happen. Dr CP, I know you can't tease out specifics...but...could this happen to me in grad school too? What to do about this? It seems a bit silly not to publish something just because 'we weren't first', 'because she doesn't like the other researcher' We worked so hard at a paper. It seems unfair. It seems such a waste!

I am a bit sad.

Is it worth to say anything at all or is her reasoning logical? Even if they did our research q - It isn't as if that published paper solved some mystery that now is solved for good. I don't think any paper can be...right?

Sometimes people get scooped. It is very hard when this happens, and it is quite rare. But it happens. There may be a unique contribution in there somewhere, but your professor will know best whether it is in worth pursuing. Everyone has at least 2-3 war stories of injustice in this field. Congrats - you already have 1 behind you!

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Professor ClinPsyAdvice,

A match between supervisor and student is of, I think, utmost importance as is the potential research productivity one may get from this match, right?
If this is the case, how specific should one's search for a supervisor be? What factors become important? Can one be too lenient too picky?

Thanks! Your help, as I'm sure you know, but I'll tell you again anyway, is so very much appreciated

SIB

Start with a broad search of folks who work in the same area and research topics that are interesting to you. On the interview, you can get the info on personal match. As for productivity, that is a tough one. Some people out there are an asset to your career just by being one of their students (whether you've published or not)! But in most cases, the match doesn't mean very much unless you have produced some products of your own by the time you graduated.

 

[SourPatchKid]

Dr. Clin Psych,

I'm ready to get started on my statements and get my list of schools figured out. I want to get a head start on my applications because its looking like I’ll be out of the country for most of the month of November, so I am hoping to get everything completed by the end of October, including having my rec letters in (so I will be in the country to make sure it goes smoothly).

However, I cannot select what schools I am applying to, what statements to start working on, or what recommendation letters to ask my rec writers to write until I can contact professors/schools to find out who is accepting students!

Is there any way to find out who plans on accepting students now rather than having to wait until September? Some have it on their websites, but most don't! Can I contact the grad secretary now? Would they know? I know that sometimes you have to wait for the fall semester to see what grants/money comes in, but most people have an idea of whether or not they'll be accepting students for the next year by now, right?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Hopefully others can benefit from any insight too. THANK YOU!

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Dr. Clin Psych,

I'm ready to get started on my statements and get my list of schools figured out. I want to get a head start on my applications because its looking like I’ll be out of the country for most of the month of November, so I am hoping to get everything completed by the end of October, including having my rec letters in (so I will be in the country to make sure it goes smoothly).

However, I cannot select what schools I am applying to, what statements to start working on, or what recommendation letters to ask my rec writers to write until I can contact professors/schools to find out who is accepting students!

Is there any way to find out who plans on accepting students now rather than having to wait until September? Some have it on their websites, but most don't! Can I contact the grad secretary now? Would they know? I know that sometimes you have to wait for the fall semester to see what grants/money comes in, but most people have an idea of whether or not they'll be accepting students for the next year by now, right?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Hopefully others can benefit from any insight too. THANK YOU!

Actually, many will not know yet. It is based on university budgets, grant budgets, and faculty discussions/decisions that typically take place much later in the year. Some may know, but many may not.

 

[psychdude5469]

Dr. Clin Psych,

I'm ready to get started on my statements and get my list of schools figured out. I want to get a head start on my applications because its looking like I’ll be out of the country for most of the month of November, so I am hoping to get everything completed by the end of October, including having my rec letters in (so I will be in the country to make sure it goes smoothly).

However, I cannot select what schools I am applying to, what statements to start working on, or what recommendation letters to ask my rec writers to write until I can contact professors/schools to find out who is accepting students!

Is there any way to find out who plans on accepting students now rather than having to wait until September? Some have it on their websites, but most don't! Can I contact the grad secretary now? Would they know? I know that sometimes you have to wait for the fall semester to see what grants/money comes in, but most people have an idea of whether or not they'll be accepting students for the next year by now, right?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated! Hopefully others can benefit from any insight too. THANK YOU!

About this time last year I emailed the profs that I was interested in to see if they were taking students. I received a reply from all of them.

 

[Sonic]

Hi DrClinPsy,

I hold an australian psychology degree and it is APS accredited. I got around 30 credits exempted in my degree because of my business diploma, thus graduated with thesis work just by doing 60 credits. My degree transcript clearly stated that I got the exemptions because of the diploma. The question is, do I have to present my diploma transcript in my PHD applications or can I just present the certificate? My concern is that my diploma GPA is a low 2.2, but my degree GPA is around 3.5. My friends told be that the grad schools will just look at my degree GPA but I'm afraid that my diploma GPA will make my whole application look bad and decrease my chances of gettting into grad school.

Do you think my low diploma GPA will be my downfall? Should I go back to school and attempt those 30 credits, I really hate to do this because of the time and money.

Please advise. Thanks!

 

[scienceisbeauty]

I'd like to work with someone who writes frequently.
But in any case, should I care WHICH journals a professor publishes in?

A professor who publishes 50 articles in a 3rd rate journal vs. 10 in a 1st rate. Should I even care?

Thanks prof CP you're awesome!

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Hi DrClinPsy,

I hold an australian psychology degree and it is APS accredited. I got around 30 credits exempted in my degree because of my business diploma, thus graduated with thesis work just by doing 60 credits. My degree transcript clearly stated that I got the exemptions because of the diploma. The question is, do I have to present my diploma transcript in my PHD applications or can I just present the certificate? My concern is that my diploma GPA is a low 2.2, but my degree GPA is around 3.5. My friends told be that the grad schools will just look at my degree GPA but I'm afraid that my diploma GPA will make my whole application look bad and decrease my chances of gettting into grad school.

Do you think my low diploma GPA will be my downfall? Should I go back to school and attempt those 30 credits, I really hate to do this because of the time and money.

Please advise. Thanks!

I'm afraid I am not understanding the difference between these two types of GPAs you are mentioning. I believe all applications will ask for a copy of your transcript and your GPA. Most will only look at your GPA, but if from a foreign institution, they may not know how to interpret it. You can always write a letter or paragraph explaining what this all means and include it in your application.

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

I'd like to work with someone who writes frequently.
But in any case, should I care WHICH journals a professor publishes in?

A professor who publishes 50 articles in a 3rd rate journal vs. 10 in a 1st rate. Should I even care?

Thanks prof CP you're awesome!

It absolutely matters. 1 High quality journal (high impact) pub is worth more than several low quality pubs.

 

[airmont]

Dear DrClinPsyAdvice,

While I am aware how important faculty "match" is in acceptance to a program, unfortunately, the area of research I would like to pursue - the ultra-Orthodox/Hasidic community specifically has virtually nobody interested in it. However, I believe that researching this underserved and understudied population would fit well within any program interested in multicultural or religious research. Furthermore, since it is a rather broad area that can be adapted to many specific issues so for example faculty focusing on anxiety may be willing to extend this research to ultra-Orthodox Jews.

Thus, could I turn a weakness into a strength a stress the unique nature of my interests and the interesting perspective such research may take? Or is a better strategy "brushing over" and for now focusing on other interests. "Brushing over" may be difficult, however, since my research experience - including submissions and presentations - focus clearly on these communities.

Thank you so much for any advice.

 

[Sonic]

I'm afraid I am not understanding the difference between these two types of GPAs you are mentioning. I believe all applications will ask for a copy of your transcript and your GPA. Most will only look at your GPA, but if from a foreign institution, they may not know how to interpret it. You can always write a letter or paragraph explaining what this all means and include it in your application.

I’m sorry. Let me see if I can phrase it better for you. I obtained a GPA of 3.5 in my Australian Degree, by doing only 60 credits as I was given exemptions (30 credits) due to my Diploma. The Diploma I had is considered a lower standing compared to a degree.

How will grad schools look at a 60 credits Degree with exemptions? Will they consider my Diploma GPA too, or they will just look at my Degree GPA? By the way, in the States, how many credits are there in a psychology Degree?

 

[scienceisbeauty]

Dr. ClinPsy, ...I need some...clarification? advice? suggestions? *REALLY LOST* (REALLY sincere apologies for the length)

I asked one of my professors for a letter (for grad school). She is a professor with whom, last summer, I worked with under a prestigious grant and during that summer won a very prestigious research scholarship.
She responded to me saying she was very busy with grants and had to write letters for other students, but she said that I ought to ask other people as I had "so much research experience".

I went to talk to her, because I was VERY shocked that she'd say such a thing. When I went to talk to her, she clarified. She said, she didn't mean to sound so mean but she said that "S, your research experience is beyond that of the average undergraduate, I think my letter wouldn't be able to attest to the potential you have, and the skills you have" She suggested I get a letter from the professor I got scooped with and from a different prof with who I'm writing a first authored paper with. But anyway, she said then She would be able to write me a wonderful letter...if I needed it...

Except you see, that professor the one I got scooped with - her husband is sick and I feel awful to ask her to do such a thing, she's really stressed and she's become quite..uh...confused to put it nicely. I'm worried she'll forget AND her grad student said that she (the prof) forgot to submit stuff for funding and forgot to grade some other student's work (so my concern is justified I think).

I have other people to ask, but the prof who I originally asked, I worked for like 12 hrs (by choice) a day, I worked 12 hrs a day everyday (except wkds) for 4 mo. I put in so many hrs, I put in so much time, I did everything, and went above what was required... I'm mad. Should I even bother to get a letter?

I asked the prof with whom I have a first-authored pub to write me a letter, and he said yes right away. I briefly mentioned the incident with the original prof, and he said: you got a bit jilted because you're too experienced.

So now:
How common is it to be damned by "too much experience"?
I really really feel uncomfortable asking the prof who has a sick husband ...so how do I explain that to the prof who I originally asked? It's that profs business that her husband is sick and I don't want to go blabbing it...
Is it even worth it to explain to the prof I originally asked, is it even worth it to get a letter from her?

 

[Ilovecows]

She said, she didn't mean to sound so mean but she said that "S, your research experience is beyond that of the average undergraduate, I think my letter wouldn't be able to attest to the potential you have, and the skills you have" She suggested I get a letter from the professor I got scooped with and from a different prof with who I'm writing a first authored paper with. But anyway, she said then She would be able to write me a wonderful letter...if I needed it...

So now:
How common is it to be damned by "too much experience"?

My dear, It DOES HAPPEN -- Remember I was telling you about the prof that I asked for a lab manager position he said "Oh I think the world of your research potential so then this job wouldn't be good for you?"
So yeah it can happen sometimes. I don't know. BTW, he's writing me letter...so who knows what can happen?
(It's the prof you met when you came to visit)

 

[cara susanna]

Wait, you're already asking for letters? I was told not to ask until Sept or so.

 

[scienceisbeauty]

Wait, you're already asking for letters? I was told not to ask until Sept or so.

I guess I already know somewhat who to ask...and I'd rather give as much notice as possible than later, esp since I already know who to ask...
Sept is not late either I don't think...
I def said I'd give them my school list later...but I have about 7 now (woot!)

 

[DrClinPsyAdvice]

Dear DrClinPsyAdvice,

While I am aware how important faculty "match" is in acceptance to a program, unfortunately, the area of research I would like to pursue - the ultra-Orthodox/Hasidic community specifically has virtually nobody interested in it. However, I believe that researching this underserved and understudied population would fit well within any program interested in multicultural or religious research. Furthermore, since it is a rather broad area that can be adapted to many specific issues so for example faculty focusing on anxiety may be willing to extend this research to ultra-Orthodox Jews.

Thus, could I turn a weakness into a strength a stress the unique nature of my interests and the interesting perspective such research may take? Or is a better strategy "brushing over" and for now focusing on other interests. "Brushing over" may be difficult, however, since my research experience - including submissions and presentations - focus clearly on these communities.

Thank you so much for any advice.

Sounds like a terrific research idea!! You probably want to discuss both your general and specific interests. This way, you can match with an anxiety researcher who is willing to study new populations, or someone who already has interest in this community. Someone out there with relevant experience will find your ideas to be terrific and will love the chance to work with you!