Advice needed: Stanford vs. Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine (CCLCM)

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mudphud13

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Hey guys,
I was hoping I could get your opinion on this comparison. I have been accepted to both Stanford University School of Medicine and CCLCM. I am really leaning toward Stanford because although I feel that they are both great programs, Stanford is in California (warm 🙂 ). I just want to make sure I am not missing anything. I would greatly appreciate your input. 🙂

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Hey guys,
I was hoping I could get your opinion on this comparison. I have been accepted to both Stanford University School of Medicine and CCLCM. I am really leaning toward Stanford because although I feel that they are both great programs, Stanford is in California (warm 🙂 ). I just want to make sure I am not missing anything. I would greatly appreciate your input. 🙂

Good lord. I sincerely hope you're asking because you just want to show off, and not because you truly don't know the answer. 😴

CCLCM is great and all, and I would be very proud to attend. However... yeah... Stanford is the winner.

(EDIT: I'm thinking possible troll...)
 
clearly no choice...so much so I do not even need to give the answer
 
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Stanford MSTP?
 
Hey guys,
I was hoping I could get your opinion on this comparison. I have been accepted to both Stanford University School of Medicine and CCLCM. I am really leaning toward Stanford because although I feel that they are both great programs, Stanford is in California (warm 🙂 ). I just want to make sure I am not missing anything. I would greatly appreciate your input. 🙂

For the love of god... why do ppl always ask such obvious questions, everyone knows that CCLCM>>>>> stanford...
 
If you have to ask this question, you are too stupid to go to Stanford.
 
what could we possibly tell you about cclcm that would make you choose it over stanford? i mean, really?

worst. comparison. thread. ever.
 
I heard CCLCM gives a lot of merit aid. Not sure though, since I didn't apply there.
 
Hey guys,
It seems that I offended many people by posting this thread. I really did not mean to. I did not post this to show off or state the obvious. I just wanted to get people's opinions on a new and up-coming program that I am sure will rival the best research-centric med programs in a couple of years. The question is to go with the older, established program or the newbee. I realize that a lot of you feel that the answer is obvious, but just by reading the few replies so far there are different opinions.

Here is a few things about these two schools:
CCLCM - problem-based, student-centered, very small class size, located in cleveland, OH, has not graduated anyone yet, above average USMLE step one results, incredible integration of research and medical training, "free" tablet PC, possibility of full scholarship, school trying to be 100% funded (free) for all students by 2009

Stanford - lecture and group learning integrated, study concentrations, larger class, located in california, has a history of graduating great doctors, above average USMLE step 1 scores, good integration of research and medical training

Sorry once again to those I have accidentally offended by posting this thread.
 
Stanford MSTP or MD program??
 
I didn't think this was an outlandish post. I took it as a legitimate query. It seems to me that even in its infancy CCLCM is attracting plenty of top students away from top programs.

I, personally, would pick Stanford simply for the warm climate. And it is a fantastic school, and you never know what will happen with CCLCM. I think CCLCM is on it's way to being the next Mayo, but if you go there at this stage you would be something of a guinea pig. Plus, you have to wear a shirt and tie all the time, even in the library. And it's an extra year. Also, even though it's research-focused, I think generally better research still comes out of Stanford. But, then again, the money from CCLCM would be sweet.

Hmm .... tough decision.

Still, I'm voting for Stanford.

Good luck picking between great and even greater (and figuring out which one is which).
 
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Hey guys,
It seems that I offended many people by posting this thread. I really did not mean to. I did not post this to show off or state the obvious. I just wanted to get people's opinions on a new and up-coming program that I am sure will rival the best research-centric med programs in a couple of years. The question is to go with the older, established program or the newbee. I realize that a lot of you feel that the answer is obvious, but just by reading the few replies so far there are different opinions.

Here is a few things about these two schools:
CCLCM - problem-based, student-centered, very small class size, located in cleveland, OH, has not graduated anyone yet, above average USMLE step one results, incredible integration of research and medical training, "free" tablet PC, possibility of full scholarship, school trying to be 100% funded (free) for all students by 2009

Stanford - lecture and group learning integrated, study concentrations, larger class, located in california, has a history of graduating great doctors, above average USMLE step 1 scores, good integration of research and medical training

Sorry once again to those I have accidentally offended by posting this thread.

i'm sorry for not giving this more thought.

the bay area of california is nice and all, but i think you would be happier in cleveland. in the winter, the sun wouldn't block your eyes as you travel to campus, and you would get a good workout trudging through the snow. and think about how much better you'll appreciate a beach and beautiful natural terrain when you live far away from it? if you're really lucky, you'll become a crime victim in cleveland, a growth experience you're less likely to encounter in palo alto.

and i've talked to so many doctors that, when faced with a complicated patient, wished they had had fewer students in their med school class or done pbl so they could come up with a more effective treatment.

getting paid $12k per quarter to t.a. or r.a. is overrated, especially when you consider it on top of great need-based aid for even middle-income students. what better motivation to be the best doctor possible who puts in a lot of hours than going 200k in debt?




now get yourself a full ride to cclcm, and you'll have yourself a comparison thread.
 
I'm surprised by all the flack you're getting on this thread. CCLCM was my dream school (just got rejected), so I guess I'm a bit biased but I'd pick it over Stanford. I think that CCLCM is a real up-and-comer that will be on par with Mayo in the next several years if not sooner. You should read CCLCMer's blog. That's what really sold me on the school. Good luck with your decision and congratulations. It's certainly an enviable position to be in.
 
CCLCM is truly an awesome school if you ever get the chance to visit. It is comparable to any top 10 school in my opinion. So like the previous poster said, the OP has good reason to consider it over stanford. JMO
 
there is no doubt cclcm is an awesome school that i would choose over most. but this is a comparison thread. so is someone going to actually list factors that would make one choose it over *stanford*? i am truly unable to list any (unless the op gets a full ride at cclcm and not much aid at stanford, in which case i can list one factor).
 
Is this some sort of joke? Stanford in a heartbeat.

The mandatory 5-year for a MD degree will never catch on. Most people with offers from the Top 10's would go elsewhere.
 
The mandatory 5-year for a MD degree will never catch on. Most people with offers from the Top 10's would go elsewhere.

agreed. they welcome it at stanford, but 5 years isn't required.

and case is now starting m1 in early july? i hope that one doesn't catch on, either . . .
 
Everyone is pissed at this guy for asking advice since they're just looking at the usnews ranking (which for some reason, at the same time they despise) and know that there is no way an 8 ranked school can be worse than one ranked in the 20s. Give the guy a break. He actually visited both schools and found them comparable. I guarantee most of the response here are from people that didn't visit the schools, nor probably even applied to them.

I bet there are people that do pick schools in the 20s over top 10s. It happens all the time. I know a kid who picked mayo over the H.
 
And why can it not be?

well, simply saying that a school is an "up and comer" is vague, and doesn't provide any concrete reasons why this is the case. if your vote is for cclcm that's fine, but you need to make comparative, concrete statements *in relation to stanford* to make this case. what are they?
 
well, simply saying that a school is an "up and comer" is vague, and doesn't provide any concrete reasons why this is the case. if your vote is for cclcm that's fine, but you need to make comparative, concrete statements *in relation to stanford* to make this case. what are they?

Others like CCLCMer and JDWFlash can probably give you better info about it than I can but here are the points that sold me:
1. The curriculum is very innovative, though probably not for everyone. As I understand it, there are no lectures or grades. This is very much like the Mayo curriculum except that this one is much more student-driven. Professors seem to be there more to guide the students but don't really teach in the traditional sense.
2. I think I heard that Case was the first in the country to do PBL. Again, not for everyone, but that was a real plus for me.
3. Some of the best doctors in the country are at the Cleveland Clinic and they have been the top hospital for cardiology for five years. They are also in the top 5 in many other specialties. Having these physicians write your letters for residency will no doubt have a lot of pull.
4. Students at CCLCM seem to get much more clinical exposure from year one than other schools.
5. Financial aid at the Clinic is very generous. Everyone seems to get some form of grant and there are several that get full scholarships. I've also heard that the goal is to make the school tuition free.

Hope this helps
 
a good start, but these aren't comparative statements. so point-by-point

1. The curriculum is very innovative, though probably not for everyone. As I understand it, there are no lectures or grades. This is very much like the Mayo curriculum except that this one is much more student-driven. Professors seem to be there more to guide the students but don't really teach in the traditional sense.

my strong opinion is that pre-meds put way too much emphasis on the first two years than they should. this opinion comes from reading the advice of residents and doctors on sdn and in-person. everyone is going to learn a basic amount of information in those two years, and you're ultimately going to be teaching it to yourself for the most part, no matter how the teaching is set up. med students do seem to like pass-fail (and many don't seem to like pbl). stanford is also pass-fail, unranked, for all four years. so in my opinion, this one is a wash. they are both pass-fail, and the importance of lecture vs. pbl is overblown and shouldn't play a big role in picking a school.

but then i forgot about the clinical requirements. i don't know what cclcm does, but stanford only requires 15.5 months of clinical time. this is awesome. you have a lot of extra time to do research, travel, do fun stuff, or do extra clinicals.

2. I think I heard that Case was the first in the country to do PBL. Again, not for everyone, but that was a real plus for me.

what does it matter to be the first? their version of pbl should stand on its own merits relative to other versions, whatever they might be.

3. Some of the best doctors in the country are at the Cleveland Clinic and they have been the top hospital for cardiology for five years. They are also in the top 5 in many other specialties. Having these physicians write your letters for residency will no doubt have a lot of pull.

I don't need to write that stanford also has top doctors and hospitals, so i won't.

4. Students at CCLCM seem to get much more clinical exposure from year one than other schools.

i don't recall what stanford does in relation to this. i do think (again, as informed by the perspective of med students here and elsewhere) that the importance of clinical exposure as a first-year is more important to pre-meds than med students. what do you expect to do as a first-year med student on a team of attendings, residents, ms3/4s, nurses, and techs? taking a blood pressure and talking to a pt is something, but it's stuff i and others did as a pre-med. i know stanford does run one or two free clinics (predominantly, i *think* one is for a spanish-speaking population and one is for an asian population (both populations are not as available in cleveland, a strike against cclcm for many)), and ms1s are able to participate in them.

5. Financial aid at the Clinic is very generous. Everyone seems to get some form of grant and there are several that get full scholarships. I've also heard that the goal is to make the school tuition free.

financial aid is also generous at stanford (lowest student debt for a private med school outside of the free military school, or so i've read). with stanford offering merit aid now on top of their generous need-based aid and r.a./t.a. pay, a number of people will essentially be getting free rides.
 
I think there is a lot to be said for CCLCM:

1) If you're good enough to get into Stanford, CCLCM might offer you a large scholarship. If you get a full ride, I would go to CCLCM.

2) CCLCM is a MUCH better hospital system than Stanford.

3) With all the talk about 5 years, it should be noted that a vast majority of MD students at Stanford (I believe something like 80%) take 5 years to get their MD.

4) Stanford is notoriously weak in their clinical training and Step 2 score, because of their ultra-rich and very limited patient population.

Stanford is clearly the better overall school, but if you get scholarship money then it's definitely something to consider.
 
Stanford!!!!!!!!!!
Stanford!!!!!!!!!!!!
Duh!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think it's a no-brainer. The biggest difference, 5 years of crappy Cleveland with one year in a lonely laboratory or 4 years near a beach with the name Stanford backing you up (also 4 years). No argument at all here.
 
I personally think it's a tough choice. I interviewed in CCLCM, and was really impressed by them. As the faculty described it: It's the ideal medical school, the way the practicing doctors think it should be.

I get the idea that if you're more into primary care, CCLCM is the better choice, while Stanford'll give you better research experience (just slightly in each case).

I'd personally choose CCLCM. I got waitlisted there, though, so make your choice quickly, please.
 
I'd personally choose CCLCM. I got waitlisted there, though, so make your choice quickly, please.

Hahaha ditto here lunaire.. "Hold" list for me as well.. I hope we see some movement before March 22 so we can go to the second look weekend.. 🙂

If your heart wasnt stolen by CCLCM at the interview, go to Stanford. It seems to me that everyone at CCLCM was really sold on the PBL-focus and the small class size. No one goes to CCLCM to be in Cleveland, but that doesnt mean they arent happy there. The hospitals are amazing...

If the rankings and being in a warmer climate for 4-5 years is important to you, go to Stanford. The details between the schools differ, but in the end, med school is pretty much med school...
 
pick stanford...

i'm on hold at cclcm!
 
Hey guys,
I was hoping I could get your opinion on this comparison. I have been accepted to both Stanford University School of Medicine and CCLCM. I am really leaning toward Stanford because although I feel that they are both great programs, Stanford is in California (warm 🙂 ). I just want to make sure I am not missing anything. I would greatly appreciate your input. 🙂
Congrats on both of your acceptances. 🙂 I didn't apply to Stanford, so I can't do a comparison for you. I will ask around and see if any of my classmates had to make that same decision last year and would be willing to post or PM you about it. My advice if you are not sure what to do is to wait for now and see about your financial aid packages. Also, go to the second look weekends if you can. Both schools would give you a really great education and research opportunities, so it's really a matter of your personal preference. How much do geography or curriculum differences matter to you? I think if you are from CA and you have family and friends there, that should be something to factor in, even if all else is equal. Don't get me wrong---I love CCLCM, and I'm very glad that I came here. But I don't get to see my family nearly as much as I would have if I had gone to my state school. There are definitely times that I regret going out of state.
 
I bet there are people that do pick schools in the 20s over top 10s. It happens all the time. I know a kid who picked mayo over the H.
There are at least three people in my class that I can think of off hand who turned down top ten schools to come here. 🙂
 
I'm surprised by all the flack you're getting on this thread. CCLCM was my dream school (just got rejected), so I guess I'm a bit biased but I'd pick it over Stanford. I think that CCLCM is a real up-and-comer that will be on par with Mayo in the next several years if not sooner. You should read CCLCMer's blog. That's what really sold me on the school. Good luck with your decision and congratulations. It's certainly an enviable position to be in.
Aww, swissmiss, I'm sorry. 🙁 I'm glad you liked the blog though. Good luck wherever you end up.
 
I get the idea that if you're more into primary care, CCLCM is the better choice, while Stanford'll give you better research experience (just slightly in each case).
I really don't think this is true at all. Our whole program is heavily research based, and we don't really focus on primary care. I wouldn't advise someone who wanted to do primary care to come here unless they also wanted to do research. (Say like if you wanted to do outcomes research in primary care.) It's true though that CCLCM puts a lot of emphasis on clinical training, but the school is really aiming to train us to be physician investigators, not primary care physicians.
 
hey mudphud, turn on your pm, ill message you about this (i went to case, and now im going to stanford med), we'll chat
 
Personally, Stanford.

California.

But, to each his own.

Good luck.
 
I think the best advice is to go to both 2nd look weekends and see where you are most comfortable and where you will be happiest. You'll get a great education at both places. And off the top of my head I can think of classmates (1st years this year) that turned down Mayo, UPenn, Wash U, Vandy, Pitt, Baylor, and Michigan among others. Multiple people in our class turned down some of theses schools. But honestly writing this in february and thinking about Cali... hmmm 😎 .
 
seems to me like if you're into research, then stanford is the place to be. Im sure CCLM is up and coming as a research powerhouse, but I don't think it'll be able to replace a biomedical research powerhouse like stanford (#1 usnews for overall biosci, #7 usnews as a research medical school)....and for those of you who will say that overall biosci includes thinks like ecology and non biomed related fields, if you took a visit to stanford, i'm pretty sure you'd see that those are not the real focus.......

as for small class, doesnt stanford have an extremely small medical school class?

Also, stanford has the scholarly concentrations which are awesome in terms of gearing you towards what you want to do in the future.
 
seems to me like if you're into research, then stanford is the place to be. Im sure CCLM is up and coming as a research powerhouse, but I don't think it'll be able to replace a biomedical research powerhouse like stanford (#1 usnews for overall biosci, #7 usnews as a research medical school)....and for those of you who will say that overall biosci includes thinks like ecology and non biomed related fields, if you took a visit to stanford, i'm pretty sure you'd see that those are not the real focus.......

Lerner isn't an "up and coming" powerhouse per se...fifth largest research institute in the country with all of that being medically relevant
 
Lerner isn't an "up and coming" powerhouse per se...fifth largest research institute in the country with all of that being medically relevant

Where's your data?

http://grants.nih.gov/grants/award/trends/resins05.htm

NIH FY 2005 Research Institutes Ranking:
Cleveland Clinic Foundation Research Institute: 200

FY 2004: 71
FY 2003: 9
FY 2002: 5

So back in 2002, Cleveland Clinic was 5. Now it's 200.

(All the money in these statistics was transferred to CWRU, just to let you know.)
 
Hey guys,
It seems that I offended many people by posting this thread. I really did not mean to. I did not post this to show off or state the obvious. I just wanted to get people's opinions on a new and up-coming program that I am sure will rival the best research-centric med programs in a couple of years. The question is to go with the older, established program or the newbee. I realize that a lot of you feel that the answer is obvious, but just by reading the few replies so far there are different opinions.

Here is a few things about these two schools:
CCLCM - problem-based, student-centered, very small class size, located in cleveland, OH, has not graduated anyone yet, above average USMLE step one results, incredible integration of research and medical training, "free" tablet PC, possibility of full scholarship, school trying to be 100% funded (free) for all students by 2009

Stanford - lecture and group learning integrated, study concentrations, larger class, located in california, has a history of graduating great doctors, above average USMLE step 1 scores, good integration of research and medical training

Sorry once again to those I have accidentally offended by posting this thread.

Wow, I am glad I didn't post this thread even though I find the question valid. I also am accepted to CCLCM and I am weighing it versus some other options. People that are criticizing you are obviously too obsessed with those research $ rankings. I assume the majority of people out there would also go with UWash over CCLCM based on 'rankings', but the caliber of students (based upon the current med students I have met and the pre-meds interviewing with me) at CCLCM far exceeds that of UWash. Also, that full funding by 2009 that they mention at the interview is inviting as is the class size of 32.

That said, I am still mulling over the decision. Despite USMLE scores and inevitable excellent letters from rotations, it is still a new med school and there is only speculation with regards to matching for residencies. Furthermore, I spoke with a doc that was a graduate from mayo back when it first started and he told me that, despite the mayo clinic reputation, he still found it difficult matching to his top choices. People were suspicious of how clinic based training would prepare docs for non-clinic based residencies.

Again, all of the propaganda that CCLCM spits out goes against these concerns, but I still remain suspicious. Also, I am a little concerned about the city. I must have heard the phrase "You come here for the clinic, not cleveland" more times than I could count (from med students and residents there).
 
Since several members have touted the uselessness of pre-clinical training innovation, let's make sure that the hospital systems at which students will be receiving their clinical training is weighted. These are definitely both respected institutions, and the OP has a thoughtful choice to make. It sure is sunny in California, though.

Best of luck, OP, you are stuck in the midst of fortuitous dilemma.
 
Since several members have touted the uselessness of pre-clinical training innovation, let's make sure that the hospital systems at which students will be receiving their clinical training is weighted.

Okay, time to debunk this one. Great hospitals do not equal superlative training. You'll get a better clinical training any day at Bellevue (NYU) where you have to do most of the procedures yourself than at a place like Cleveland Clinic where you don't get to touch a patient because the docs are so anal about doing each procedure correctly. Hospital rankings will tell you whether or not this hospital has the best person in this or that field. Whether you have the world's expert in rhinoplasty does not matter to your education. You're not going to be doing the procedure anyway. I would focus much more on academic caliber, the quality of the teaching, the kind of classmates you'll interact with (who are as much a part of your education as the doctors), and what school makes you happy / is a better fit.
 
I'm convinced that CCLCM would do a better job at preparing you for an academic career.

That said, I'd still probably pick Stanford because of its name and its all-around strength.

If you've got a certain set of priorities, though, CCLCM could take you places.
 
You'll get a better clinical training any day at Bellevue (NYU) where you have to do most of the procedures yourself

Come on now. This statement is completely ridiculous!
 
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