AF JSGME IFB info... MUST READ for AF Applicants/HPSPers

[exafdoc]

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Hi, I am considering doing HPSP. Can you tell me where you were stationed during active duty? Did you choose where you were stationed? I was told that you put your choices down on a sheet, and then they put you where you want. Is this true?

No, not true. They do not put much effort into assuring that you are stationed where you want to be. You have to remember that the placement officers are typical lazy government employees (usually other non-medical officers). Do not think that they spend much time or effort placing people where they want to be. They basically see an opening and pick a name out of a hat. It is much less work for them.

 

[exafdoc]

Yeah, I hope I'm misinterpreting the ER slots too:

Emergency Medicine
Residency, Emergency Medicine 8- SAUSHEC; 6- WP/WS


Somehow I don't think we are. Looking over the list, it looks like the AF either wants surgeons or family practice physicians. Coupled with the recent policy change that makes all unmatched candidates obligatory flight surgeons for 2 years, it looks like the plan is to turn all outgoing medical students into flight surgeons and have us burn up our active duty commitment and then scurry off to do our residencies.

I am sorry to say that you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, the AF is moving to a primary care medical service. They only want enough specialists to cover the nonCONUS needs, which is filled by USHUS (sp?) students. CONUS specialty services will be supplied by the private sector.

Not that it will likely be approved, but all of the disillusioned HPSP students should send in applications for voluntary separations--you can receive info on this from Ms. Geiger. Your application should be on the grounds that you do not wish to be a flight surgeon and that you believe you will provide a suboptimal level of care if forced into it. Also sight the fraudulent representation presented by your recruiter. You should send a copy of you request for separation to the Sec of the AF, congressman, senators, etc. Be sure to contact your congress members to speak with there military affairs reps directly. They will often submit the request for you which gives you some extra juice. Do not fear reprecussions. The AF is not organized enough to do so. Not to mention that you are already going to be stuck being a flight surgeon and as a new doc will be given the worst assignments anyways.

 

[deuist]

Not that it will likely be approved, but all of the disillusioned HPSP students should send in applications for voluntary separations--you can receive info on this from Ms. Geiger. Your application should be on the grounds that you do not wish to be a flight surgeon and that you believe you will provide a suboptimal level of care if forced into it. Also sight the fraudulent representation presented by your recruiter. You should send a copy of you request for separation to the Sec of the AF, congressman, senators, etc. Be sure to contact your congress members to speak with there military affairs reps directly. They will often submit the request for you which gives you some extra juice. Do not fear reprecussions. The AF is not organized enough to do so. Not to mention that you are already going to be stuck being a flight surgeon and as a new doc will be given the worst assignments anyways.

Are you aware of anyone who has been successful using this route? My experience is that the AF brushes off the fraudulent recruiting claim.

 

[exafdoc]

I am not aware of this being successful. Particularly regarding the fraudulent recruiting--your HPSP contract basically states that nothing the recruiter said is legally binding. That is why the recruiters feel free to lie to you. However, a sympathetic member of congress can make a lot happen. I would state the mental anguish and feeling of betrayal that you feel given the malfeasance of the process. It will only take a small number of people sending these type of requests and statements to the Sec of the AF to begin having an effect. ARPC will try to brush you off. Mrs. Geiger will probably tell you that you cannot/should not submit such a request, but that is untrue. Do not allow that to occur and demand a decision from the commander, Brig Gen Pottinger. When you are denied, you should register a complaint with the Inspector General at the base you are placed. Also, talk with your placement officer. After it is determined where you will be stationed be sure to register (in writing) that the assignment is involuntary. Otherwise, they will state that your assignment is voluntary which will then be used against you later to say that you consented to your assignment and duties.

 

[DrSwim]

I'm a 3rd year medical student HPSPer. I'm interested in doing PM&R but as far as i know the AF doesnt have a program for this. Does anyone know what the chances are that the IFB could ask for a PM&R doc and I can match civilian?
Also, if I end up being sidetracked into another field, is there a way I can go back and do a later residency (civilan or military) in PM&R. I heard it's unheard of to do a second residency.

Thanks guys!

 

[AFDuck]

If you're set on PM&R your best shot is to do an intern year, serve out your committment as a FS/GMO, and try to match civilian. I would say that doing a different residency in service, serving out your committment in that field, and then going out and matching may be a little more difficult and you'll be more years detached from med school. Good luck

 

[DrSwim]

thanks for your input

 

[Jolie South]

Does anyone know what the climate is for people applying to general surgery in the AF?

This year there are roughly 22 categorical spots total (AF + deferred). I know it can vary year to year, but am I looking at 2-3 applicants competing for a slot or is it closer to 1:1?

 

[NeuroJ]

Has the JSGME score sheet criteria changed in recent years?

What exactly does one have to do to earn "bonus points"?

It looks as if research can be a make-or-break criterion. Has anyone gone through the process knowing that they lost a spot to someone who had better research experience? And is this research done strictly during medical school, or can one amass research points if they had a publication (heck, poster presentation) completed during undergrad?

I get a feeling that a lot of GME is just an arbitrary process (just by taking a glance at the score sheet).

 

[deuist]

Has the JSGME score sheet criteria changed in recent years?

What exactly does one have to do to earn "bonus points"?

Don't remember the points off hand, but you can earn them for different levels such as publications, publications in peer-reviewed journals, and multiple publications in peer reviewed journals. There are also points for prior service and prior service medical.

I get a feeling that a lot of GME is just an arbitrary process (just by taking a glance at the score sheet).

The point system is supposed to take away the arbitrariness of it all. Although making that argument is difficult with the "potential to become a career officer" category.

 

[Nirv]

Nearly done with a 3 year HPSP commitment. If I had to do it all over again...then I would not have done it. If you do military medicine, then you either really love your country, or you hate yourself. Either/or.

 

[girl1234]

(posted this on a different forum also, apologies for repeats)

Hi there,

I am applying to med school right now and strongly, strongly considering HPSP. I've read a ton on these forums, but have yet to post anything re: mil med. I have no military background or loyalty to any one branch and am trying to decide which, if any, branch would be the best match for me. At this point, I've all but ruled out the army - while its higher chances of being able to train straight through are tempting, the longer and (seemingly) more hazardous deployments, along with the notion that the army 'doesn't treat its people as well' (mostly with regards to when i serve AD time) as the other two branches have sort of pushed me away from them

Now, I'm trying to decide whether navy or af would be a better match. The AF recruiter I've spoken with seems less-than-trustworthy, though I do have a friend that has helped clarify some of the discrepencies (HPSP AF guy, 5th year at a great civilian residency - he was granted a deferral for gen surg, and is now about to start his AD). The Navy recruiter I spoke with was very nice, but unfortunately was actually a nursing and dentist recruiter and had slim-to-no idea of the match process/GMOs - which is what I am most in-need of details on.

SO...

1) I know Army has higher match rates and have seen the numbers for 2010 (ratio of applicants to spots)...but for the AF and Navy I haven't been able to acquire these numbers...anyone have ANY notion of about how many applicants/year (percentage-wise?) DON'T match, and therefore funnel into FS/GMO or Transition Years?

2) IF I were to end up as a FS for the AF, what are the different tracks for flight surgery, and how does one apply to them/how are people selected for them? How long are the minimum FS commitments?

3) IF I were to end up as a GMO for the Navy, same questions as above.

ps, by "tracks" i mean flight med, dive med, with seals or marines or special forces, etc etc...apologies if I am making up random 'tracks', again NO military background here, just a bf whose father/grandfather were marines and who would flip their s if i ended up as doc for a marine battalion...

I have tons of questions...but figured I'd start with these and see if I get any useful feedback. Thanks in advance to anyone who tries to help!

 

[Galo]

(posted this on a different forum also, apologies for repeats)

Hi there,

the army 'doesn't treat its people as well' (QUOTE]

If you think the army does not treat their people well, and that somehow the navy or air force do, then you should seriously reconsider your decision for HPSP.

As a military physician you will be treated like any soldier of the same rank. Additionally the air force has a worst reputation for the way their physicians are treated than any other branch. You still run a risk of having to do a GMO/FS slot, which means you will waste away 2 yrs of your life as an untrained physician. Then you will have to do a military residency, and incur more active duty time than the original 4 you signed up for.

There is plenty of reading to do on these threads about the negative aspects of military medicine as it exists today. Your friend who just finished his training will be able to tell you alot about that as he enters active duty and experiences military medicine.

I would recommend that unless you want to be a military officer, you reconsider HPSP.

Read these forum thoroughly. Best of luck.

 

[girl1234]

"If you think the army does not treat their people well, and that somehow the navy or air force do, then you should seriously reconsider your decision for HPSP."

Having read many, many posts on these forums I should have been wiser than to throw oout generalizations without clarifying or including every relevant detail....but, in short, I do understand that as a physician who has been paid for by the military I will be military property and therefore will be treated just like any other piece of military property. Rest assured that I have gained at least that much from reading these forums.

"Additionally the air force has a worst reputation for the way their physicians are treated than any other branch."

This I did not know...why do you believe this to be true? Do you have any specific examples or reasons to believe that this is the case? I would appreciate the specifics...? I am really just trying to gather information here, so your insight is valued.

"You still run a risk of having to do a GMO/FS slot, which means you will waste away 2 yrs of your life as an untrained physician."

This I also understand; I realize that even very qualified students/students that may be very competitive by civilian-match standards coming out of medical school often don't get a spot in a military residency and have to do a GMO or FS tour......which is why half of my previous post was asking about the various different 'tracks' you can end up in as a GMO/FS. If you have any information about them, I would be very interested to hear what you know?

 

[Galo]

For the air force its either GMO or flight surgeon. Not sure if you get to chooseundless you apply for FS right off. Not sure about navy either. But if you are willing to put up with that, and you realize what you are getting into, you may not have as big a dissapointment as many do.

I'm sure there are others on the forum who can answer your specific questions about GMO nuances.

 

[AF M4]

(posted this on a different forum also, apologies for repeats)

Hi there,

I am applying to med school right now and strongly, strongly considering HPSP. I've read a ton on these forums, but have yet to post anything re: mil med. I have no military background or loyalty to any one branch and am trying to decide which, if any, branch would be the best match for me. At this point, I've all but ruled out the army - while its higher chances of being able to train straight through are tempting, the longer and (seemingly) more hazardous deployments, along with the notion that the army 'doesn't treat its people as well' (mostly with regards to when i serve AD time) as the other two branches have sort of pushed me away from them

Now, I'm trying to decide whether navy or af would be a better match. The AF recruiter I've spoken with seems less-than-trustworthy, though I do have a friend that has helped clarify some of the discrepencies (HPSP AF guy, 5th year at a great civilian residency - he was granted a deferral for gen surg, and is now about to start his AD). The Navy recruiter I spoke with was very nice, but unfortunately was actually a nursing and dentist recruiter and had slim-to-no idea of the match process/GMOs - which is what I am most in-need of details on.

SO...

1) I know Army has higher match rates and have seen the numbers for 2010 (ratio of applicants to spots)...but for the AF and Navy I haven't been able to acquire these numbers...anyone have ANY notion of about how many applicants/year (percentage-wise?) DON'T match, and therefore funnel into FS/GMO or Transition Years?

2) IF I were to end up as a FS for the AF, what are the different tracks for flight surgery, and how does one apply to them/how are people selected for them? How long are the minimum FS commitments?

3) IF I were to end up as a GMO for the Navy, same questions as above.

ps, by "tracks" i mean flight med, dive med, with seals or marines or special forces, etc etc...apologies if I am making up random 'tracks', again NO military background here, just a bf whose father/grandfather were marines and who would flip their s if i ended up as doc for a marine battalion...

I have tons of questions...but figured I'd start with these and see if I get any useful feedback. Thanks in advance to anyone who tries to help!

There are no particular "tracks" for flight med in the AF. You can ask to go to a base with fighter planes, special ops, etc., but ultimately it will come down to (a) do you have any major medical problems that preclude you from certain jobs and (b) where they need flight surgeons.

About 4 years ago they took an entire class of HPSP students and involuntarily made many of them FS/GMOs by cutting the residency spots deferred. This summer most of those flight docs are separating (surprise!), so the AF manning world is abuzz trying to find more flight surgeons. If you want to be one and you can maintain a pulse, you'll get a slot.

2 year minimum tours for a flight doc, although there are legends of escapees after 1 year. Those legends begin with either "His dad was a general so..." or "The staff at his last base nicknamed her the Undertaker because so many of her patients died."

I strongly advise you to stay away from the Air Force medical service in general. If you want to be a flight surgeon, do it in the Navy.

 

[girl1234]

Thank you, appreciate the feedback!

 

[Osteo4life]

Hi, is there any possible way to guarantee being a Navy flight surgeon when doing a GMO. If I do a 3 year HPSP, will I be able to do all of my service as a flight surgeon? Will it be a 2 year tour and then a 1 year tour or a grand 3 year tour? Will I be assigned to a fighter squadron or cargo planes (please give the odds of being assigned to each)?

Will I or can I be reassigned to a another squadron if chosen to do so. What are the chances of becoming a flight surgeon when doing GMO tours and what other options do I have if I do not get to be a flight surgeon, I heard about underwater medicine (SEALs)?

Is the Navy phasing out flight surgeons or GMO tours in general? I am not interested in doing residency in the military.

Thank you for any helpful responses and replies.

 

[backrow]

Hi, is there any possible way to guarantee being a Navy flight surgeon when doing a GMO.

No

If I do a 3 year HPSP, will I be able to do all of my service as a flight surgeon? Will it be a 2 year tour and then a 1 year tour or a grand 3 year tour?

You would initially have 2yr orders; however, in most instances you could extend in the same unit for another year....or potentially switch units for a year at the same base

Will I be assigned to a fighter squadron or cargo planes (please give the odds of being assigned to each)?

Aren't really too many cargo plane billets in the Navy, but there are many other things beyond fighter's. Odds are impossible to give, but since you asked I'll just give you some random numbers: 20% and 1%.

Will I or can I be reassigned to a another squadron if chosen to do so.

In the same 2yr order period? not likely, but possible based on the "needs of the navy".

What are the chances of becoming a flight surgeon when doing GMO tours and what other options do I have if I do not get to be a flight surgeon, I heard about underwater medicine (SEALs)?

Depends on the year and if you are physically qualified for aviation. Other options: Ships, SeaBee's, Marine's, and Undersea Medicine (please realize UMO does not equal SEAL's the vast majority of the time)

Is the Navy phasing out flight surgeons or GMO tours in general?

Yes, but not very fast or with any real push behind it

 

[Osteo4life]

I am flat footed and have a very low (flat) foot arch, so would that exempt me from being a flight surgeon or being on the ground? I have perfect vision and am in shape and have not had any serious medical issues. Is flight surgeon billets competitive and are people assigned randomly or by their grades in medical school and the prestige of their medical school?

Thanks

 

[Osteo4life]

Air Force Flight Surgeons (AMP route) vs Navy Flight Surgeons:

I have heard a lot of people say always one is better than the other, but rarely WHY?

So, can someone compare the two in terms of training, being sent to which base (location), interaction with pilots and patients, actual "flight training/cockpit time," does the 4 hours of flight per month apply to both branches?

The compeititveness of becoming a flight surgeon I have learned is much HIGHER in the Navy than in the Air Force, but is there any way to secure a Navy Flight Surgeon slot or will someone most likely get sent to the Fleet Ships? In the Air Force due to the desperate shortage of Flight Surgeons I have heard if you request it and pass the flight physical, you are guaranteed to become a Flight Surgeons.

In 4 years or so, is there a strong chance that Flight Surgeons will be greatly reduced in the Navy since they have been reducing the number of billets over the past few years.

Thanks and please correct me if I am wrong on any of this information.

 

[Osteo4life]

Air Force Flight Surgeons (AMP route) vs Navy Flight Surgeons:

I have heard a lot of people say always one is better than the other, but rarely WHY?

So, can someone compare the two in terms of training, being sent to which base (location), interaction with pilots and patients, actual "flight training/cockpit time," does the 4 hours of flight per month apply to both branches?

The competitiveness of becoming a flight surgeon I have learned is much HIGHER in the Navy than in the Air Force, but is there any way to secure a Navy Flight Surgeon slot or will someone most likely get sent to the Fleet Ships? In the Air Force due to the desperate shortage of Flight Surgeons I have heard if you request it and pass the flight physical, you are guaranteed to become a Flight Surgeons.

In 4 years or so, is there a strong chance that Flight Surgeons will be greatly reduced in the Navy since they have been reducing the number of billets over the past few years.

Thanks and please correct me if I am wrong on any of this information.

 

[xkm]

How rigorous/good are military residencies compared to civilian? (conferences, quantity/breadth of cases, etc)

 

[Kilgoretrout 65]

How rigorous/good are military residencies compared to civilian? (conferences, quantity/breadth of cases, etc)

I think they are probably similar in many respects (board passage rate, ACGME accreditation stats) EXCEPT the volume can be lower, the number of patients over 65 is way too low, and the budgets are being squeezed. If 80% of all cancer occurs in patients over 60 (ACS Journal for Clinicians) then there has to be some negative for a military medicine system that won't let you see that many patient over 65.

 

[HPSPTexas]

Can you say why you hate it so much? We are looking at the HPSP scholarship for my husband concerning clinical psychology. Very interested in what you have to say!