Afraid of not finding a job

[Hannah Faulkner]

Finding relevant job in the start of career is difficult. Look what career paths, your peers and circle of influence have been through initially. This will give you true picture of what you can expect as a start (LinkedIn might do the trick) . Also proof read your resume, get second opinion from teachers/ faculty for any changes.

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[magicgradstudent]

All this on a thread where the OP ended up getting 3 job offers. lols

Well done, OP. Congrats, and best of luck! I would stay away from Rite Aid if possible; so basically go with Safeway.

 

[lord999]

The only advice I like to hear on SDN if how bad pharmacy is and what a poor decision it is. Any advice for me there?

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/09/daily-chart-13

That the US is the cheapest place in the world to self-medicate after realizing what a poor decision it is to be us. As you stated on the car thread, there are also other ways to self-medicate.

 

[Wickett]

I'm only arguing with people because they argue with me first. For example, wagrxm2000 tells me that "I'm worried about the job market because I don't have a plan" when I remind him that every example of published statistical data shows that there will be an oversupply of at least 60,000 pharmacists soon, even by the most conservative estimates. And to that, I get some off-handed response like, "Did you actually expect me to read that?" What I think is adorable is the fact that there are actually real-life practicing pharmacists out there who let their passion and enjoyment for the profession cloud their ability to objectively assess obvious job market trends.

You know the job market is going to get bad when this guy quotes future oversupply stats and recognizes the growing saturation in the field while still blindly filling a pharmacy school seat. I sympathize with the frustration with job prospects but it's odd to take a position of superiority on this subject over practicing pharmacists as a P1.

The more correct you are, the dumber you look for just starting out in pharmacy school. It may be time to change the name to PAtoPharmtoPA.

 

[PAtoPharm]

You know the job market is going to get bad when this guy quotes future oversupply stats and recognizes the growing saturation in the field while still blindly filling a pharmacy school seat. I sympathize with the frustration with job prospects but it's odd to take a position of superiority on this subject over practicing pharmacists as a P1.

The more correct you are, the dumber you look for just starting out in pharmacy school. It may be time to change the name to PAtoPharmtoPA.

Like I have already admitted, starting pharmacy school was a mistake. All I can do at this point is try to get on another path to pursuing a more prosperous career (or at the very least, one that won't have a beyond-saturated job market in a few years).

 

[PAtoPharm]

Nothing new here. No need to post again.

You accuse me of saying the same thing over and over again, but what do you call making a barrage of non-stop posts telling me over and over again that I shouldn't have posted what I just posted?

 

[Wickett]

Like I have already admitted, starting pharmacy school was a mistake. All I can do at this point is try to get on another path to pursuing a more prosperous career (or at the very least, one that won't have a beyond-saturated job market in a few years).

I agree. If you feel so strongly and plan to try another field, Id just leave pharm school asap. No need to continue racking up debt. I would say you can make it with some effort, but it doesn't appear you'd be happy moving to undesirable locations to pay your dues. In 3 more years, that will be even more necessary to land that first job. Good luck and hope you figure it all out.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I agree. If you feel so strongly and plan to try another field, Id just leave pharm school asap. No need to continue racking up debt. I would say you can make it with some effort, but it doesn't appear you'd be happy moving to undesirable locations to pay your dues. In 3 more years, that will be even more necessary to land that first job. Good luck and hope you figure it all out.

Thanks. You are right in saying that I don't want to move to an undesirable location to find a job; not only that, but even the undesirable locations are going to be saturated in a few years. Are you familiar with the latest PDI job market stats? If not (and assuming you haven't seen my posts on the subject), the latest set of data indicates that every state in the southeast is saturated except for undesirable areas in MS and LA. In a year or two, even these areas will become filled.

Then that leaves places like Yuma, AZ and Odessa, TX as the only places in the country that will still have any jobs. Oh, but then those areas will be saturated soon after as well, because there are bound to be at least a few new grads who actually WILL be willing to pay their dues. Then what?? Oh, that's right -- that's when the unemployment rate begins. Duh.

This is how I look at it: I have never been the kind of person who can motivate themselves to pursue a challenging long-term endeavor that doesn't offer a pragmatic, tangible ROI for the time/money/effort spent. And like you said in your post, I could probably get a job when I graduate if I'm willing to move somewhere undesirable (like Yuma or Odessa), but it's going to take a serious amount of commitment, effort, and resume-boosting just to get that last-resort job.

It would be a different story if an excessive amount of effort was what it would take to get a GOOD job in a desirable area. At this point, it's a game of out-competing everyone else just for a shot at getting the table scraps.

Look at it like this -- in medical school, students don't push themselves to earn a high GPA, ultra-competitive board exam scores, complete ECs, and out-compete their classmates so they can get a spot in a family practice residency; they put in that kind of effort because they know that's the level of commitment that will help them to get a spot in an orthopedic surgery, dermatology, radiology, etc. residency.

But in pharmacy, are students advised to do the same thing so they can make themselves competitive for a good job in a nice area? No -- they are being advised to do those things just so they can out-compete the other new grads who will be desperate for that 32 hrs/week CVS floater job in Yuma, AZ or Meridian, MS.

TL;DR -- not willing to put in an amount of effort/commitment that students pursuing any other profession put in so they can make themselves competitive for GOOD jobs in nice areas, just to get a bottom-of-the-barrel job in a crap area. It's like working 60 hrs/week at a nice restaurant just for the hope of getting table scraps at the end of thenight.

 

[beautifulrobot]

(or at the very least, one that won't have a beyond-saturated job market in a few years).

supersaturated?

 

[steveysmith54]

Look at it like this -- in medical school, students don't push themselves to earn a high GPA, ultra-competitive board exam scores, complete ECs, and out-compete their classmates so they can get a spot in a family practice residency; they put in that kind of effort because they know that's the level of commitment that will help them to get a spot in an orthopedic surgery, dermatology, radiology, etc. residency.

But in pharmacy, are students advised to do the same thing so they can make themselves competitive for a good job in a nice area? No -- they are being advised to do those things just so they can out-compete the other new grads who will be desperate for that 32 hrs/week CVS floater job in Yuma, AZ or Meridian, MS.

TL;DR -- not willing to put in an amount of effort/commitment that students pursuing any other profession put in so they can make themselves competitive for GOOD jobs in nice areas, just to get a bottom-of-the-barrel job in a crap area. It's like working 60 hrs/week at a nice restaurant just for the hope of getting table scraps at the end of thenight.

Comparing med to pharm, couldn't think of a more worthless comparison.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Comparing med to pharm, couldn't think of a more worthless comparison.

Just because most pharmacy students would never stand a chance at getting accepted to medical school doesn't mean the career pathways shouldn't be compared to each other on the basis of objective factors (e.g., school/training length, cost of tuition, job market, upward mobility, salary, etc.).

 

[bulldog1123]

Just because most pharmacy students would never stand a chance at getting accepted to medical school doesn't mean the career pathways shouldn't be compared to each other on the basis of objective factors (e.g., school/training length, cost of tuition, job market, upward mobility, salary, etc.).

actually, that's exactly why they shouldn't be compared. It is not realistic for many pharmacy students to even consider going into medical school so the possibilities it offers in place on pharmacy school is not a valid comparison. Your comparison to PA/NP to pharmacy is a more valid comparison since it is possible for an average pharmacy student in a reputable pharmacy school to get into a PA/NP program.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Disagree- students at new schools and maybe current applicants maybe. My pharmacy school GPA was higher than our med school.

That's how it used to be here in the southeast. When I was in high school and just starting college, everyone wanted to go to pharmacy school at Auburn, Mercer, or UGA and you had to have at least a 3.6-3.7 to have a shot at getting in. I guess that was before they decided to open 80-100 new schools and pharmacy students were being "sold" a bright future with provider status, new clinical roles, etc.

 

[bulldog1123]

That's how it used to be here in the southeast. When I was in high school and just starting college, everyone wanted to go to pharmacy school at Auburn, Mercer, or UGA and you had to have at least a 3.6-3.7 to have a shot at getting in. I guess that was before they decided to open 80-100 new schools and pharmacy students were being "sold" a bright future with provider status, new clinical roles, etc.

It is still relatively close for those big schools. While the applicant pool is definitely diluted, these established schools still have a standard for admissions. Unfortunately, these new schools (and for some part, the established schools too) are touting this 'bright' future and students are gobbling it up. I have classmates who have never set foot in a pharmacy to this day. But there still are many quality and competent students which high GPA in my program and the other established schools in the southeast who would be competitive for medical school (some I know have even gotten in [DO]).

 

[Sine Cura]

GPA didn't and doesn't mean all that much. MCAT is more rigorous than PCAT will ever be and actually weeds out the pretenders. It is also fairly difficult to get into a medical school without proof of interest, i.e., meaningful shadowing experience and other extracurriculars, whereas it is fairly common for PharmD matriculants never to have stepped foot in an actual pharmacy

 

[bulldog1123]

GPA didn't and doesn't mean all that much. MCAT is more rigorous than PCAT will ever be and actually weeds out the pretenders. It is also fairly difficult to get into a medical school without proof of interest, i.e., meaningful shadowing experience and other extracurriculars, whereas it is fairly common for PharmD matriculants never to have stepped foot in an actual pharmacy

My comment was solely GPA based as in their GPA was competitive for medical school. Of course, without knowing their MCAT or extracurriculars, we wouldnt know if they were well rounded enough for medical school admissions.

 

[PAtoPharm]

It is still relatively close for those big schools. While the applicant pool is definitely diluted, these established schools still have a standard for admissions. Unfortunately, these new schools (and for some part, the established schools too) are touting this 'bright' future and students are gobbling it up. I have classmates who have never set foot in a pharmacy to this day. But there still are many quality and competent students which high GPA in my program and the other established schools in the southeast who would be competitive for medical school (some I know have even gotten in [DO]).

I think that pharmacy probably wouldn't be such a dead-end investment if there was some way to "bridge" from the Pharm.D. to a more lucrative degree/profession that has a brighter future. Even from just talking to people I know locally, that is one of the factors that appeals to potential PA school applicants -- they have the option of applying to a PA-to-DO bridge program in the future if they ever decide to become a physician (I.e., it makes them feel less like they're settling for being "just" a PA instead of a physician since the option will potentially always be on the table). Unfortunately, the Pharm.D. will probably always be an absolute terminal degree.

 

[bulldog1123]

I think that pharmacy probably wouldn't be such a dead-end investment if there was some way to "bridge" from the Pharm.D. to a more lucrative degree/profession that has a brighter future. Even from just talking to people I know locally, that is one of the factors that appeals to potential PA school applicants -- they have the option of applying to a PA-to-DO bridge program in the future if they ever decide to become a physician (I.e., it makes them feel less like they're settling for being "just" a PA instead of a physician since the option will potentially always be on the table). Unfortunately, the Pharm.D. will probably always be an absolute terminal degree.

However, PharmD is actually the end or top degree for its professional field while with PA, you are only a mid-level practitioner and are not the top of the food chain in your field. So even when Pharmacy was at it's peak, the concept of a PA-to-DO or a MSN-to-NP isnt a logical concept to use for a PharmD. What would you bridge it too? You are already at the top of your chain for your field. That isnt a good comparison.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Duh. There is no bridge type program that makes sense for pharmd... There is nothing similar to a pharmd that's greater than a pharmd.

It would make sense if it was still a BSPharm degree.

What do those bridge programs cut off anyhow? A year? Still have to do residency and at least 50% of medical school.

Yep, cuts off the first year, which is regarded as being one of the most grueling. If I actually do get accepted to PA school and could actually manage to get transfer credit for courses I took with the PA students during AA school (anatomy, physiology, etc.) and eventually do the bridge program at some point, I could avoid ever having to take those classes again. I doubt there are any PA programs out there that grant transfer credit, unless I actually apply to and attend the PA program at the university that runs the AA program.

 

[bulldog1123]

Yep, cuts off the first year, which is regarded as being one of the most grueling. If I actually do get accepted to PA school and could actually manage to get transfer credit for courses I took with the PA students during AA school (anatomy, physiology, etc.) and eventually do the bridge program at some point, I could avoid ever having to take those classes again. I doubt there are any PA programs out there that grant transfer credit, unless I actually apply to and attend the PA program at the university that runs the AA program.

hopefully youre able to do it. would allow you to get your life on the road a bit quicker.

 

[beautifulrobot]

I think that pharmacy probably wouldn't be such a dead-end investment if there was some way to "bridge" from the Pharm.D. to a more lucrative degree/profession that has a brighter future. Even from just talking to people I know locally, that is one of the factors that appeals to potential PA school applicants -- they have the option of applying to a PA-to-DO bridge program in the future if they ever decide to become a physician (I.e., it makes them feel less like they're settling for being "just" a PA instead of a physician since the option will potentially always be on the table). Unfortunately, the Pharm.D. will probably always be an absolute terminal degree.

There is nothing stopping you from applying to med school after obtaining your PharmD. If you go to pharmacy school but you end up deciding you want to become a physician in the future, having a PharmD certainly doesn't hurt your application to medical school (unless you had a terrible academic record in pharmacy school).

I don't know much about these PA-to-DO programs, but I imagine you still have to meet the same med school admission requirements as everyone else (GPA/MCAT, extracurricular activities, research experience, LORs, demonstrating a certain level of enthusiasm for medicine). There are no easy ways in or shortcuts to getting in to med school.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

Look at it like this -- in medical school, students don't push themselves to earn a high GPA, ultra-competitive board exam scores, complete ECs, and out-compete their classmates so they can get a spot in a family practice residency; they put in that kind of effort because they know that's the level of commitment that will help them to get a spot in an orthopedic surgery, dermatology, radiology, etc. residency.

But in pharmacy, are students advised to do the same thing so they can make themselves competitive for a good job in a nice area? No -- they are being advised to do those things just so they can out-compete the other new grads who will be desperate for that 32 hrs/week CVS floater job in Yuma, AZ or Meridian, MS.

Dear God, another ignorant comment from the quitter. I've talked to several doctors and medical students, and the word on the street is that medical school admission and medical school coursework gets harder with each passing year. I've heard of med students putting in extreme amounts of studying and still barely passing their coursework. The fact that you think you can get through medical school goes to show that you know nothing about the difficulty of medical school.

I posted this earlier, but I'll reiterate my experience again. I work 20 hours a week, I'm involved in two student organizations, and I hang out with my GF and my friends on a weekly basis. I've never pulled an all-nighter, and the least amount of sleep I've had was 5 hours in a day. And I've never gotten below a 3.6 GPA in a semester. My cousin, who is a medical student, has none of those luxuries. Furthermore, my cousin gets the privilege to be overworked (courseload is equivalent to 25-30 hours per semester, two week winter break and 3 week summer break), hazed by professors and preceptors (they talk down to students and residents), and very little sleep for days on end. Some of his classmates couldn't make the cut for some of their exams, and they had to repeat the year.

If it's too hard for you to work at a pharmacy or get involved in student organizations during the school year, then I don't think you're cut out to be a medical student.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Dear God, another ignorant comment from the quitter. I've talked to several doctors and medical students, and the word on the street is that medical school admission and medical school coursework gets harder with each passing year. I've heard of med students putting in extreme amounts of studying and still barely passing their coursework. The fact that you think you can get through medical school goes to show that you know nothing about the difficulty of medical school.

I posted this earlier, but I'll reiterate my experience again. I work 20 hours a week, I'm involved in two student organizations, and I hang out with my GF and my friends on a weekly basis. I've never pulled an all-nighter, and the least amount of sleep I've had was 5 hours in a day. And I've never gotten below a 3.6 GPA in a semester. My cousin, who is a medical student, has none of those luxuries. Furthermore, my cousin gets the privilege to be overworked (courseload is equivalent to 25-30 hours per semester, two week winter break and 3 week summer break), hazed by professors and preceptors (they talk down to students and residents), and very little sleep for days on end. Some of his classmates couldn't make the cut for some of their exams, and they had to repeat the year.

If it's too hard for you to work at a pharmacy or get involved in student organizations during the school year, then I don't think you're cut out to be a medical student.

Fair enough, but if I can't handle medical school, then how could I possibly handle PA school? The whole reason there is now a bridge program is because the first year of PA school is essentially the same as medical school. In fact, at least two of the classes I took in AA school were medical school courses.

As an aside, I know it sounds crazy, but even though the pharmacy school "equivalents" of the basic science courses cover much less material than what the classes I took in AA school (I.e., medical school) covered, it's much harder to make higher grades because of how sh*tty some of the teachers are. Not all of them are like this, but in some classes, there is just no direction whatsoever in terms of teaching, and the PPT presentations often have next to zero text in them. The only thing you can do is try and figure out what to write down of what the teacher is randomly rambling on about. So even though there is less material to learn, it's more frustrating than it was in AA school because at least the medschool teachers would actually give you the material you need to study. In pharmacy school, you basically have to guess on what to teach yourself from the textbook, and I just don't have the motivation to do that here. I would literally rather have to memorize the hundreds more PPT slides I had to know in AA school than deal with outright guessing on what to study out of a much smaller volume of material in pharmacy.

Anyways, I am basically just venting here. It's not like I'm failing; even in the guess-what-to-study courses, I have around a 90, but in AA school I maintained a 96-97 putting in what I remember to be less effort.

Either way, the only point I was making was that by simply going to (and graduating from) PA school, there are a lot more opportunities to improve/enhance someone's professional status, income, job opportunities, etc. Kind of like having an extra poker chip in your back pocket... just in case.

Edit: I looked at the part of my post that you quoted, and regardless of whether I am capable of making it through medical school, it still doesn't change the fact that an average US medical student who passes their classes with decent grades can get an FP/IM residency, whereas getting a bottom-of-the-barrel job with CVS/Walgreens as a pharmacist is going to require an excessive amount of effort and commitment as a pharmacy student from now on. I don't get why people want to argue objective points like that by focusing on what I, personally, have a shot at doing.

 

[owlegrad]

If it's too hard for you to work at a pharmacy or get involved in student organizations during the school year, then I don't think you're cut out to be a medical student.

The idea that becoming a doctor is easier than finding a job as a pharmacist is an interesting one though, give the man some credit.

 

[PAtoPharm]

The idea that becoming a doctor is easier than finding a job as a pharmacist is an interesting one though, give the man some credit.

Look, the fact is, I took several medical school courses along with the rest of my AA school classes. That's the only point I was making. I do wonder how some of the people I went to undergrad with who struggled to earn a 3.2 managed to graduate from Caribbean medical school or DO school with a 3.4, but I wouldn't stand a chance of making it through.

And I'm not considering applying to medical school because I think the process of becoming a DO is easier than getting a pharmacist job; it all comes down to simply making a better life choice than what pharmacy has become.

BTW, even if it turns out that I'm really not cut out for medical school, what does that have to do with the fact that it is a sham to have to out-compete the majority of other pharmacy students in the class just for any crap job someone can find in BFE, whereas being an average medical student who matches into FP or IM carries with it a much better outlook (even if it won't provide for as lucrative of a career as orthopedic surgery or radiology)? The facts are what they are, regardless of what I'm capable of doing or not doing.

 

[PAtoPharm]

There is nothing stopping you from applying to med school after obtaining your PharmD. If you go to pharmacy school but you end up deciding you want to become a physician in the future, having a PharmD certainly doesn't hurt your application to medical school (unless you had a terrible academic record in pharmacy school).

I don't know much about these PA-to-DO programs, but I imagine you still have to meet the same med school admission requirements as everyone else (GPA/MCAT, extracurricular activities, research experience, LORs, demonstrating a certain level of enthusiasm for medicine). There are no easy ways in or shortcuts to getting in to med school.

If I were to end up finishing pharmacy school, there is no way I would be willing to spend the time/money to go to medical school at that point, especially since I will have well over $200k in loans by the time I graduate from pharmacy school alone. That's why I was looking at going to PA/AA school as soon as I can get accepted (or re-accepted, as would be the case for AA school). If I can get accepted and matriculate at AA/PA school within the next year, I will be graduating by about the same point in time as I'd be graduating from pharmacy school, so at least there wouldn't be any lost time in that regard. If I finish pharmacy school first and then do PA/AA school, I'll be looking at over 5 more years of school from this point onward, which is 3 years longer than the process needs to take (I.e., I don't need to do 3 years worth of pharmacy school just to immediately pursue something else). Besides, even if I didn't end up going to AA/PA school, I still need to get out of pharmacy ASAP. There is simply no way I'll be willing to move to BFE to get a job when I graduate, which is another way of saying that I won't be willing to do what it takes to get a job as a pharmacist, so I might as well get out now.

BTW, I believe the PA-to-DO bridge program doesn't require applicants to apply with MCAT scores if they have a certain minimum GPA combined with other factors, but even if an applicant has to take the MCAT, only a 40th percentile score is required (not sure what is considered competitive).

 

[Sine Cura]

What you are doing is not true introspection. It's incessant rationalization and trying to get the last word in

 

[PAtoPharm]

What you are doing is not true introspection. It's incessant rationalization and trying to get the last word in

Rationalization of what? That pharmacy sucks? Anyone who can read can see that is the case.

 

[Sine Cura]

You already ****ed up so what is the point is rehashing the same **** over and over again other than to piss away time?


BTW you are supposed to invert this statement: "Fair enough, but if I can't handle medical school, then how could I possibly handle PA school?" And depending on the program pharmacy students do take some of the same first-year courses as allopathic students. Yet allopathic and PharmD is not even close to the same rigor and accountability, mainly because of M2 and M3 and Step 1 and Step 2

 

[PAtoPharm]

You already ****ed up so what is the point is rehashing the same **** over and over again other than to piss away time?


BTW you are supposed to invert this statement: "Fair enough, but if I can't handle medical school, then how could I possibly handle PA school?" And depending on the program pharmacy students do take some of the same first-year courses as allopathic students. Yet allopathic and PharmD is not even close to the same rigor and accountability, mainly because of M2 and M3 and Step 1 and Step 2

The reason I questioned whether I would be able to PA school if I possibly can't handle medical school is because so much of the curriculum is the same (even though there is no Step 1 or Step 2). I never said that Pharm.D. programs were as hard as medical school (I know they can't be because I mostly cram and put in half-assed effort to study for tests). The only point I made was that, objectively speaking, medical school is a more worthwhile pursuit, and that graduating as an average medical student who has to "settle" for FP/IM leads to more/greater opportunities than being a top-tier pharmacy school graduate. That's it.

 

[Sine Cura]

I meant allopathic and PA

 

[bulldog1123]

The reason I questioned whether I would be able to PA school if I possibly can't handle medical school is because so much of the curriculum is the same (even though there is no Step 1 or Step 2). I never said that Pharm.D. programs were as hard as medical school (I know they can't be because I mostly cram and put in half-assed effort to study for tests). The only point I made was that, objectively speaking, medical school is a more worthwhile pursuit, and that graduating as an average medical student who has to "settle" for FP/IM leads to more/greater opportunities than being a top-tier pharmacy school graduate. That's it.

Just want to point out that just because you are at a second rate pharmacy school (want to respect your wishes and keep which one you're specifically at private) doesn't mean the rest of them are some cakewalk programs. There is one program off the top of my head in Georgia that teaches their P1 students very similarly to their medical students, with even MDs/DOs teaching the classes. This is not to say PharmD is the same rigor as an allopathic or osteopathic curriculum, but it seems like you are watering down all pharmacy programs because yours is a cakewalk. But you must take the schools into account and your school is not a good standard.

 

[beautifulrobot]

If I were to end up finishing pharmacy school, there is no way I would be willing to spend the time/money to go to medical school at that point, especially since I will have well over $200k in loans by the time I graduate from pharmacy school alone. That's why I was looking at going to PA/AA school as soon as I can get accepted (or re-accepted, as would be the case for AA school). If I can get accepted and matriculate at AA/PA school within the next year, I will be graduating by about the same point in time as I'd be graduating from pharmacy school, so at least there wouldn't be any lost time in that regard. If I finish pharmacy school first and then do PA/AA school, I'll be looking at over 5 more years of school from this point onward, which is 3 years longer than the process needs to take (I.e., I don't need to do 3 years worth of pharmacy school just to immediately pursue something else). Besides, even if I didn't end up going to AA/PA school, I still need to get out of pharmacy ASAP. There is simply no way I'll be willing to move to BFE to get a job when I graduate, which is another way of saying that I won't be willing to do what it takes to get a job as a pharmacist, so I might as well get out now.

BTW, I believe the PA-to-DO bridge program doesn't require applicants to apply with MCAT scores if they have a certain minimum GPA combined with other factors, but even if an applicant has to take the MCAT, only a 40th percentile score is required (not sure what is considered competitive).

You made the claim that a PharmD is an "absolute terminal" degree. My argument is that "absolute terminal" isn't a real thing, and that there is nothing about having a PharmD that would prevent you from pursuing a medical degree, or any other degree for that matter, if it's something you think you may want to do in the future. Obviously, if you know you want to go to medical now, then there are much more direct tracks to getting into medical school than going through pharmacy school first - but that wasn't your initial argument. Yes, a PharmD is a terminal degree for the discipline of pharmacy practice, but it doesn't mean it can't complement other disciplines or make you a better candidate for other academic or professional degree programs - all depending on what your goals are and how you want to get there. A PharmD certainly has its limitations compared to an MD, but it is still a fairly versatile degree. There are several postgraduate training programs available to PharmDs (variety of clinical residency programs, fellowships in toxicology, applied epidemiology, regulatory sciences, pharmacogenomics, etc.). You also are eligible to apply to MBA, MPH, MHA, and other masters programs once you obtain a PharmD. There are a lot of different ways you can build on the PharmD. Saying it is an "absolute terminal" degree is nonsensical.

 

[lord999]

You made the claim that a PharmD is an "absolute terminal" degree. My argument is that "absolute terminal" isn't a real thing, and that there is nothing about having a PharmD that would prevent you from pursuing a medical degree, or any other degree for that matter, if it's something you think you may want to do in the future. Obviously, if you know you want to go to medical now, then there are much more direct tracks to getting into medical school than going through pharmacy school first - but that wasn't your initial argument. Yes, a PharmD is a terminal degree for the discipline of pharmacy practice, but it doesn't mean it can't complement other disciplines or make you a better candidate for other academic or professional degree programs - all depending on what your goals are and how you want to get there. A PharmD certainly has its limitations compared to an MD, but it is still a fairly versatile degree. There are several postgraduate training programs available to PharmDs (variety of clinical residency programs, fellowships in toxicology, applied epidemiology, regulatory sciences, pharmacogenomics, etc.). You also are eligible to apply to MBA, MPH, MHA, and other masters programs once you obtain a PharmD. There are a lot of different ways you can build on the PharmD. Saying it is an "absolute terminal" degree is nonsensical.

There is no such thing as an absolutely terminal degree as giga notes, but there is such a thing as lower ROI which I agree that the PharmD is a terminal degree in terms of ROI for a straight path. In Pharmacy, that was the PharmD when the BS was available (the extra year does not make sense financially if you could have gotten a BS). In Computer Science for non-network issues, that is either the MS or the CCIE (although there are outstanding personnel who need neither, they are outstanding for a reason). So why do a postgrad degree if you know the financial ROI is not the same? The type of work you get to do changes quite a bit with certain qualifications. Sure, you can work into those jobs, eventually. However, you can start in those jobs and go the distance.

I do hold the moral prejudice though that if you actually study for the PharmD, you should practice a little to give back after you get through school to "pay back" the time that others spent to train you (and if that's to make spending cash in physician training, works for me). This is not a BS/BA degree. I really would not want to admit someone who did not either intend to practice or use the PharmD in some way in their future life, there is still a shortage of working, competent, no-drama pharmacists today. No pharmacy director, chief, or district supervisor wants to hire the majority of pharmacists coming out of school with unrealistic expectations and problematic work habits. Supposedly, that is the informal curriculum that residency is supposed to teach, but even there, that is not always a given. The last decade was in favor of the worker, now it is back in favor of the employer. There are, and will continue to be, jobs for pharmacists who are willing to work. Might not be the city you want, might not be the tasks that you want to do, might not be the people you want to work (the biggest factor in why certain hospitals suck to work for) with or face as customers (my biggest factor in why certain retail stores suck to work at), but there is ample work even now. Be realistic in a first job, I'm not promising that you will ever find a perfect job (some manage it), but I still maintain that the industry still has career (as in full employment for a lifetime) opportunities. Sure, automation may reduce the number of jobs, but the profession is not in the elimination territory, since someone has to be around to maintain the automation at least.

But if you don't want to be a pharmacist or do the routine tasks of a pharmacists, possibly education is for you. Possibly working an entirely different career might work out better. There's a reason why faculty and civil service give up a decade of potential lifetime career salary to work the jobs they do.

 

[AsuPharm]

There is no such thing as an absolutely terminal degree as giga notes, but there is such a thing as lower ROI which I agree that the PharmD is a terminal degree in terms of ROI for a straight path. In Pharmacy, that was the PharmD when the BS was available (the extra year does not make sense financially if you could have gotten a BS). In Computer Science for non-network issues, that is either the MS or the CCIE (although there are outstanding personnel who need neither, they are outstanding for a reason). So why do a postgrad degree if you know the financial ROI is not the same? The type of work you get to do changes quite a bit with certain qualifications. Sure, you can work into those jobs, eventually. However, you can start in those jobs and go the distance.

I do hold the moral prejudice though that if you actually study for the PharmD, you should practice a little to give back after you get through school to "pay back" the time that others spent to train you (and if that's to make spending cash in physician training, works for me). This is not a BS/BA degree. I really would not want to admit y someone who did not either intend to practice or use the PharmD in some way in their future life, there is still a shortage of working, competent, no-drama pharmacists today. No pharmacy director, chief, or district supervisor wants to hire the majority of pharmacists coming out of school with unrealistic expectations and problematic work habits. Supposedly, that is the informal curriculum that residency is supposed to teach, but even there, that is not always a given. The last decade was in favor of the worker, now it is back in favor of the employer. There are, and will continue to be, jobs for pharmacists who are willing to work. Might not be the city you want, might not be the tasks that you want to do, might not be the people you want to work (the biggest factor in why certain hospitals suck to work for) with or face as customers (my biggest factor in why certain retail stores suck to work at), but there is ample work even now. Be realistic in a first job, I'm not promising that you will ever find a perfect job (some manage it), but I still maintain that the industry still has career (as in full employment for a lifetime) opportunities. Sure, automation may reduce the number of jobs, but the profession is not in the elimination territory, since someone has to be around to maintain the automation at least.

But if you don't want to be a pharmacist or do the routine tasks of a pharmacists, possibly education is for you. Possibly working an entirely different career might work out better. There's a reason why faculty and civil service give up a decade of potential lifetime career salary to work the jobs they do.

To paraphrase: "You may not be doing the tasks of a pharmacist, you may not have the title of pharmacist, you may not be paid like a pharmacist, you may not be working in a pharmacy, you may not be working with other pharmacists, but you'll be a pharmacist darnit!"

So go into pharmacy and be but not really be a pharmacist, got it lol

 

[gwarm01]

So go into pharmacy and be but not really be a pharmacist, got it lol

Hey, it's working out alright for me.

 

[farm_assist]

There is nothing stopping you from applying to med school after obtaining your PharmD. If you go to pharmacy school but you end up deciding you want to become a physician in the future, having a PharmD certainly doesn't hurt your application to medical school (unless you had a terrible academic record in pharmacy school).

I don't know much about these PA-to-DO programs, but I imagine you still have to meet the same med school admission requirements as everyone else (GPA/MCAT, extracurricular activities, research experience, LORs, demonstrating a certain level of enthusiasm for medicine). There are no easy ways in or shortcuts to getting in to med school.

Speaking as a PharmD who is now a medical student, this is 100% accurate.

 

[lord999]

"You may not be doing the tasks of a pharmacist, -The last time I dispensed a drug directly, I was under 30

you may not have the title of pharmacist, -SES

you may not be paid like a pharmacist, - Paid more than a pharmacist

you may not be working in a pharmacy, -In an office building or my house.

you may not be working with other pharmacists, -With Patrick Bateman wannabes and prettier administrative assistants.

but you'll be a pharmacist darnit!" -Damn straight! And it changes the way the place works. And it motivates me because I know what I could have been doing instead.

And I would have never worked as hard, or be trusted with the position I hold, nor have the power that I have if I were not a pharmacist first.

 

[AsuPharm]

"You may not be doing the tasks of a pharmacist, -The last time I dispensed a drug directly, I was under 30

you may not have the title of pharmacist, -SES

you may not be paid like a pharmacist, - Paid more than a pharmacist

you may not be working in a pharmacy, -In an office building or my house.

you may not be working with other pharmacists, -With Patrick Bateman wannabes and prettier administrative assistants.

but you'll be a pharmacist darnit!" -Damn straight! And it changes the way the place works. And it motivates me because I know what I could have been doing instead.

And I would have never worked as hard, or be trusted with the position I hold, nor have the power that I have if I were not a pharmacist first.

Typical baby-boomer, pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstrap attitude. "The way I did things worked for me, surely they'll work for you!"

 

[lord999]

Typical baby-boomer, pull-yourself-up-by-the-bootstrap attitude. "The way I did things worked for me, surely they'll work for you!"

Millennial, definitely too young to be a boomer, and no, I'm quite aware of how much more difficult it is to be a new grad now when I graduated in an era where you were offered $60k retention bonuses. In fact, the boomer pharmacists had it worse than we did in terms of getting hired in the early 1980s. I am saying that you will have to make something work for you, but it's not impossible and not improbable even with average or subaverage talent. But, you're going to have to compromise on something. I compromised on getting a major salary when everyone else was making bank. You have to be adaptable.

 

[AsuPharm]

Millennial, definitely too young to be a boomer, and no, I'm quite aware of how much more difficult it is to be a new grad now when I graduated in an era where you were offered $60k retention bonuses. In fact, the boomer pharmacists had it worse than we did in terms of getting hired in the early 1980s. I am saying that you will have to make something work for you, but it's not impossible and not improbable even with average or subaverage talent. But, you're going to have to compromise on something. I compromised on getting a major salary when everyone else was making bank. You have to be adaptable.

The issue always cycles back to the issue of student loans. The issue of being adaptable isn't the main concern, the main concern is getting a career in order to pay off 150,000 in student loans. When I graduate I would HAPPILY take a job at 80k if I wasn't projecting on owing 100k when I graduate, and with talking with my classmates I'll have far less debt than most of them. I feel obligated to take a job making 120k to live a normal life in 5 years, when my loans will hopefully be paid off. The schools are running like businesses now, our dean literally told us he isn't concerned about the job market when pitching that hes increasing class size by 40 and increasing our fees by 2k a semester for the next school year. I would maybe classify a few classmates as lazy, but most of us are busting our butts by working, volunteering, etc. trying to get a leg up on each other.

 

[bulldog1123]

Ummm, is Mercer really considered a good pharmacy school when their 2016 Naplex pass rate was 79% and their MPJE pass rate was 78%?

https://nabp.pharmacy/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2016-NAPLEX-Pass-Rates.pdf

https://nabp.pharmacy/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2016-MPJE-Pass-Rates.pdf

It's really annoying that US News and World Report ranks schools so incorrectly. Schools with pass rates in the 70s are ranked way higher than my school, which has had MPJE and Naplex pass rates above 90%tile every year, mostly high 90s. How are students, residency directors, and employers supposed to know which school is good and which one is bad? St. Louis College of Pharmacy sucks, too, with Naplex pass rates in the 70s. LOL. They are ranked higher than my school, too. I heard residency directors give preference to students graduating from higher ranked schools. That really sucks for the smart and competent students who went to a great school that just happened to be ranked lower than other schools that suck. Honestly, I'm surprised nobody has sued them for spreading misinformation and ruining the reputation of good schools by ranking them low for no reason.

I wonder if their hospital rankings are accurate.

In Georgia yes. It's sad to see the steep drop in its scores. It's crazy how the newer schools in PCOM and South have better scores. Thankfully UGA is still keeping a high standard.

 

[beautifulrobot]

How does this only have 3 likes?

good point.

 

[TheBlaah]

Ummm, is Mercer really considered a good pharmacy school when their 2016 Naplex pass rate was 79% and their MPJE pass rate was 78%?

https://nabp.pharmacy/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2016-NAPLEX-Pass-Rates.pdf

https://nabp.pharmacy/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/2016-MPJE-Pass-Rates.pdf

It's really annoying that US News and World Report ranks schools so incorrectly. Schools with pass rates in the 70s are ranked way higher than my school, which has had MPJE and Naplex pass rates above 90%tile every year, mostly high 90s. How are students, residency directors, and employers supposed to know which school is good and which one is bad? St. Louis College of Pharmacy sucks, too, with Naplex pass rates in the 70s. LOL. They are ranked higher than my school, too. I heard residency directors give preference to students graduating from higher ranked schools. That really sucks for the smart and competent students who went to a great school that just happened to be ranked lower than other schools that suck. Honestly, I'm surprised nobody has sued them for spreading misinformation and ruining the reputation of good schools by ranking them low for no reason.

I wonder if their hospital rankings are accurate.

I would say Mercer just a few years ago deserved a high rating. Unfortunately, over the last few years, they underwent MASSIVE turnover and the majority of their professors are new to teaching the curriculum or in some cases, new to teaching in general.

Also, they've lowered their admission standards considerably (their admission stats are online). So in their case, it's both the school's and the student's fault for the decrease in performance.

 

[Modest_anteater]

You should be OP

You are supposed to be grateful to get a job at one of the sweatshops of the chains

LOL
BRUTAL
R
U
T
A
L

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

LOL
BRUTAL
R
U
T
A
L

What's with you bumping long-dead threads?

 

[Modest_anteater]

What's with you bumping long-dead threads?

Oh is it that bad of etiquette? I noticed they added that check box thingy now before you bump but I figured the thread was still relevant in 2019. But I guess if it is frowned upon I won't do it again.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Oh is it that bad of etiquette? I noticed they added that check box thingy now before you bump but I figured the thread was still relevant in 2019. But I guess if it is frowned upon I won't do it again.

Honestly no idea about the etiquette, it just seemed really weird to me. Especially since this is the second one recently