allo reject?

[peehdee]

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anyone here rejected from allopath school, then decided to apply to osteo??
no offense to anyone

 

[Maxmuscle27]

anyone here rejected from allopath school, then decided to apply to osteo??
no offense to anyone

Can't say I have or ever will because I am never going to apply to an allopathic school, so that eliminates me...hee hee...

 

[stoic]

anyone here rejected from allopath school, then decided to apply to osteo??
no offense to anyone

This is fairly common and not really a big deal.

Everyone ends up playing doctor in the end.

 

[vtdo07]

I was an individual that was accepted to both DO and MD programs and I chose DO. The only regret I have in making my choice was that the MD school was closer to my wife, but at the end of the day I would have been choosing the MD for the wrong reason due to my strong feelings about the DO philosophy. If you are hung up on the letters behind your name and not on the level of education you will receive then you are doing this for all the wrong reasons.
The reality of applying to medical school is that very few every make it and the ones that do are fortunate to have the opportunity be it a DO, MD, or a foreign MD degree. Make your choice based on one simple fact. That fact is to be the best doctor to your patients that you can possibly be.

Best of luck with the process...........wherever you go....... 👍

 

[Mr. Seeds]

I was an individual that was accepted to both DO and MD programs and I chose DO. The only regret I have in making my choice was that the MD school was closer to my wife, but at the end of the day I would have been choosing the MD for the wrong reason due to my strong feelings about the DO philosophy. If you are hung up on the letters behind your name and not on the level of education you will receive then you are doing this for all the wrong reasons.
The reality of applying to medical school is that very few every make it and the ones that do are fortunate to have the opportunity be it a DO, MD, or a foreign MD degree. Make your choice based on one simple fact. That fact is to be the best doctor to your patients that you can possibly be.

Best of luck with the process...........wherever you go....... 👍

Well said. 👍

 

[DD214_DOC]

The reality of applying to medical school is that very few every make it and the ones that do are fortunate to have the opportunity be it a DO, MD, or a foreign MD degree. Make your choice based on one simple fact. That fact is to be the best doctor to your patients that you can possibly be.

Best of luck with the process...........wherever you go....... 👍

I don't really agree with this. I don't think it's all that difficult, given the current number of MD, DO, and Caribbean-MD programs. Let's face the truth: it doesn't take a genius to get into a carib MD school (or any med school for that matter).

This is one of my theories of why so many traditional MD students trash DO and Caribbean MD schools: it belittles the "effort" and "prestige" of getting into medical school, at least from their perspective.

I know someone will take this the wrong way, so let's have it.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

I think an individual would be pretty miserable if they went osteopathic just because of a few points lower on averages... I mean, all the hours of OMM in Year 1 and Year 2, retaining it for the boards, etc. Wow, I think that's a pretty bad decision.
In my opinion, if osteopathic was chosen strictly for that reason, the Caribbean is a much better choice. It's only 2 years on the island, the other 2 years you would be here in the states.

 

[Ypo.]

The answer to that question is yes, but I think the majority apply simply because they like DO philosophy.

 

[vikaskoth]

I think an individual would be pretty miserable if they went osteopathic just because of a few points lower on averages... I mean, all the hours of OMM in Year 1 and Year 2, retaining it for the boards, etc. Wow, I think that's a pretty bad decision.
In my opinion, if osteopathic was chosen strictly for that reason, the Caribbean is a much better choice. It's only 2 years on the island, the other 2 years you would be here in the states.

I'm a pre-allo but i kept seeing in discussions about the difference between DO's and MD's is that DO's take OMM. What is that course, what does OMM stand for?

 

[OnMyWayThere]

I'm a pre-allo but i kept seeing in discussions about the difference between DO's and MD's is that DO's take OMM. What is that course, what does OMM stand for?

Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine... there is more to it than MD + OMM. It's an approach to the patient... looking into various factors that may be causing an illness. Search www.google.com for more information on OMM.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

The answer to that question is yes, but I think the majority apply simply because they like DO philosophy.

I substantially disagree. In my opinion, most apply because they see only minor differences between a DO/MD (much less a major philosophical difference), and going to DO schools allow them to become docs. Most are borderline applicants to MD schools anyway (which is why people start to mouth stuff like "I just love the philosophy").

Not that this bothers me. I've never been one to feel that only the dyed in the wool OMT types should apply to DO schools. And by the way, I'm one of those borderline MD appklicants too.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

And by the way, I'm one of those borderline MD appklicants too.

I would have never guessed

 

[vtdo07]

I substantially disagree. In my opinion, most apply because they see only minor differences between a DO/MD (much less a major philosophical difference), and going to DO schools allow them to become docs. Most are borderline applicants to MD schools anyway (which is why people start to mouth stuff like "I just love the philosophy").

Not that this bothers me. I've never been one to feel that only the dyed in the wool OMT types should apply to DO schools. And by the way, I'm one of those borderline MD appklicants too.

I usually don't reply to posts however I think it needs to be said that if you are a boderline MD candidate and truely desire to get an MD then I believe you should get the MD. My reason being that as someone mentioned on a previous post, DO students also have to learn OMM which is an estimated, as per an AOA source, to be about 200 plus hours of additional class time. Now this may sound like just another soundbyte on the differences between the two types of programs but there has been a change in the format of both the COMLEX and the USMLE. The COMLEX, the DO equivalent of the USMLE, has added a clinical skills section just like the USMLE, however the DO boards now also test OMM skills on top of basic clinical skills, so now you really do have to learn your OMM and prove it.

 

[captbadass]

i think it is common for people who have been rejected from md schools to apply to do schools the second time around. a lot of the time these applicants didnt know about do schools in the first place. whether they agree with the do philosophy or not, many applicants apply to do schools so they can fulfill the ultimate goal of being a licensed physician. i think eventually admission into do schools will be just as competitive as md schools, but for the time being, do schools will continue to be an avenue taken by those individuals who are less competitive at md schools and still desire to practice medicine. it is obvious by numbers alone that do schools are less competitive in terms of admission and offer applicants who were unsuccessful in the md process a better chance at admission. of course there are do applicants, who are firm believers in the philosophy, with numbers that would be strong at md schools but would rather go the do route.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I usually don't reply to posts however I think it needs to be said that if you are a boderline MD candidate and truely desire to get an MD then I believe you should get the MD. My reason being that as someone mentioned on a previous post, DO students also have to learn OMM which is an estimated, as per an AOA source, to be about 200 plus hours of additional class time.

Please make a note, I never said I wanted to be an MD. I just want to be an American trained doc, and I'm grateful that osteo- schools exist to give me a shot. I was merely pointing out that I didn't exactly have a 36 MCAT and a 3.8 from Harvard. I'm not ashamed to admit that. Most of my classmates aren't hung up about it either.

The 200 OMM hours stat is interesting. Quite a bit of time learning treatment techniques that still lack some significant proof of efficacy and mechanism. Wasn't osteopathy started by AT Still in part as a rejection of 19th century treatment modalities that weren't proven and sound?

 

[vtdo07]

The 200 OMM hours stat is interesting. Quite a bit of time learning treatment techniques that still lack some significant proof of efficacy and mechanism. Wasn't osteopathy started by AT Still in part as a rejection of 19th century treatment modalities that weren't proven and sound?

Correction noted........but to answer your question about A.T. Still, it is written that he started incorporating alternate treatment modalities to compliment his 17th century MD training. As far as I have read, it has never really been said that the treatment modalities of the time weren't sound as per the technology available. It was more to the effect of the expansion of his horizons in regards to treatment with less invasive techniques for common ailments all based on the interrelatedness of structure and function, hence the development of OMM.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Correction noted........but to answer your question about A.T. Still, it is written that he started incorporating alternate treatment modalities to compliment his 17th century MD training. As far as I have read, it has never really been said that the treatment modalities of the time weren't sound as per the technology available. It was more to the effect of the expansion of his horizons in regards to treatment with less invasive techniques for common ailments all based on the interrelatedness of structure and function, hence the development of OMM.

Point noted.

As I understood it, Still was partially motivated by the quackery used in an attempt to treat his family members for meningitis. That's all I was really referring to. I'm no A.T. Still historian.

 

[Ypo.]

Point noted.

As I understood it, Still was partially motivated by the quackery used in an attempt to treat his family members for meningitis. That's all I was really referring to. I'm no A.T. Still historian.

You could say that again.

I substantially disagree. In my opinion, most apply because they see only minor differences between a DO/MD (much less a major philosophical difference), and going to DO schools allow them to become docs. Most are borderline applicants to MD schools anyway (which is why people start to mouth stuff like "I just love the philosophy").

Not that this bothers me. I've never been one to feel that only the dyed in the wool OMT types should apply to DO schools. And by the way, I'm one of those borderline MD appklicants too.

Actually...
This straight from "the DO's" by Gevitz, bottom of page 376-

"A majority of students who enroll in osteopathic colleges are quite knowledgeable about the profession-many having had a DO as a physician. However, a significant minority enter osteopathic schools after having been unsuccessful, despite good academic credentials, in gaining acceptance at an MD school. DO-granting colleges therefore face a special challenge acculturating these "second-choice" students with osteopathic beliefs and practices."

I belive, San Juan Sun, that you represent one of these "special challenges." You are a curious person...I've read some of your previous posts, and although you say you are enrolled in an osteopathic school-you almost seem bitter about it, and at times even seem to be discouraging others from attending DO schools. You say you never wanted to be an MD, (perhaps you would have tried but your stats weren't up to par?) yet you obviously doubt the efficacy and soundness of OMM, and weren't attracted to the four tenets of osteopathic philosophy to begin with. For you DO is just another way to become a physician...and thats fine...but I hope you and others who read this now realize that you represent one of the "significant minority".
Your words as a DO student and future DO could help solve some problems the profession faces... but unfortunately right now your words contribute to the challenge the osteopathic profession, the AOA-(and the very school that will be granting you your degree) face in maintaining their unique status and remaining a separate entity from the AMA. I realize that you don't care about the philosophy or OMM, but consider this...where would you have gone without DO schools? -The answer is- straight to the Caribbean-which you yourself said you wanted to avoid (I'm not knocking the caribbean schools here). So for no other reason, you should try to support your profession a little bit more so that people with less than perfect MCAT scores and GPA (such as you) will still be able to fulfill their dreams of becoming a physician.
You should realize, also, if you haven't already, that osteopathic medicine at its roots was and still is a social movement. Many who attend osteopathic schools genuinely want to become DOs and were knowledgeable about the difference between professions when they applied.

I just think anyone who reads SJS' posts should be aware some of the points I have made above...so they can take his (or her) posts with a grain of salt, and not become discouraged by his (or her) lack of enthusiasm for OMM and the philosophy of osteopathic medicine.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I belive, San Juan Sun, that you represent one of these "special challenges." You are a curious person...I've read some of your previous posts, and although you say you are enrolled in an osteopathic school-you almost seem bitter about it, and at times even seem to be discouraging others from attending DO schools. You say you never wanted to be an MD, (perhaps you would have tried but your stats weren't up to par?) yet you obviously doubt the efficacy and soundness of OMM, and weren't attracted to the four tenets of osteopathic philosophy to begin with. For you DO is just another way to become a physician...and thats fine...but I hope you and others who read this now realize that you represent one of the "significant minority".
Your words as a DO student and future DO could help solve some problems the profession faces... but unfortunately right now your words contribute to the challenge the osteopathic profession, the AOA-(and the very school that will be granting you your degree) face in maintaining their unique status and remaining a separate entity from the AMA. I realize that you don't care about the philosophy or OMM, but consider this...where would you have gone without DO schools? -The answer is- straight to the Caribbean-which you yourself said you wanted to avoid (I'm not knocking the caribbean schools here). So for no other reason, you should try to support your profession a little bit more so that people with less than perfect MCAT scores and GPA (such as you) will still be able to fulfill their dreams of becoming a physician.
You should realize, also, if you haven't already, that osteopathic medicine at its roots was and still is a social movement. Many who attend osteopathic schools genuinely want to become DOs and were knowledgeable about the difference between professions when they applied.

LOL! Where to start? My apologies if you take a simple disagreement so hurtfully to the point that you dedicate a long post to me. I would urge you however, that before you delve into personal attacks and judgements, to consider the entire body of evidence of my posts.

I might simply ignore your post in because it focuses on me (and not the issues), but you inadvertently bring up some points that I feel warrant more discussion. So here's goes:

1. About being "bitter" over attending a DO school, I regret that you take such an impression from my posts. However, if you'd look at posts by me from this week, I think you'd be surprised that I repeatedly mention how "grateful" I am to be in a DO school.

I'm a bit befuddled as to your statement that I "seem to be discouraging others from attending DO schools". Again, you clearly aren't familiar with my posts or numerous PMs advising prospetive students. However, if you would like to continue to make stuff up, I can't really help you there.

2. About applying MD, I've NEVER said I didn't apply MD. Another figment of your imagination. I did say that I'm an MD reject. I was rejected by one MD school, and turned down two MD interviews after I was accepted to a DO school that had a good location and financial package for me. I'm beggining when you'll take issue with my opinion as actually posted.....

I won't get into my stats here, as they've been posted previously. I'd be more than happy to PM them to you if you'd like. Suffice it to say that they were more than competitive for DO schols, and obviously competitive enough to warrant interviews at MD schools.

3. You also misrepresent my feelings on OMM. Do I feel like some OMM practices are voodoo? Absolutely (and many, many other DO students do as well). Do I believe that some have value. Certainly. You can ask my wife about that.

I certainly am guilty in bemoaning the lack of research into OMM. I certainly want to see EBM applied to OMM. However, I've given equal praise to those attempting to conduct such research. I merely want to know what treatments actually work, and which are bunk. I'm sorry to offend you buy not drinking all the OMM Koolaid, but I think I'm just trying to best help my future patients, and I trust many DO students feel as I do.

4. I can assure you, that the folks who merely want to be good docs are not a "significant minority" at my school. Are you a med student yet? Can you honestly tell me what the bulk of your classmates (if you actually have them yet) think?

5. If you think that I'm part of the problem that is facing DO acceptance, you are certainly entitled. As I see it, there are 2 groups: 1) Those who feel that the mission of the AOA, etc. is to maintain a distinct, separate nature from the allopaths, and 2) those who feel like DOs ought to recognize the improving pursuit of "holism" that allopaths are undertaking, as well as emulate the educational opportunities that allopaths have developed.

I've had several encounters with certain members of the AOA framework, and I've been less than impressed by their antagonism for allopaths and DOs that train in allopath residencies. I've been offended by their lack of respect for their colleagues. I'm appalled at the ineptitude of the AOA with thiings like the "DOs on TV" postcard campaign. If you like these things, then we'll just have to disagree.

6. Again, your assertion that I'd have gone to the Caribbean simply isn't true. For personal reasons, that was NEVER even a thought for me. I would have gone to dental school first. In any case, I do find it disconcerting how a person cannot criticize what they see as fundamental flaws in the DO dogma without offending personal sensibilities.

7.Lastly (if you've managed to get this far into my novel here 🙂 ), I find you feelings on osteopathy being a social movement revealg. To me, it explains a great deal of why you are so angry with me. In my opinion, most folks just want to give good care. We aren't all that interested in our associations taking up social and political tenets (for example, see how many AMA-MSS are active right now?).

I support organizations that will help me be a good doc (for example, I'm attracted to mind-body-spirit for exactly these reasons). I am hesitant to take up the banner with groups mostly interested in arguing semantics and imaginary notions of superiority with our colleagues.

If you disagree with me, then so be it. If you want to attack me personally, at least get your facts straight (and then feel free to fire away). All I ask is that you focus on the argument, and not petty, false, and ridiculous assertions about my personal circumstances.

PS- Smurfs suck. GI Joe rules. 🙂

 

[Ypo.]

Please make a note, I never said I wanted to be an MD. I just want to be an American trained doc, and I'm grateful that osteo- schools exist to give me a shot. I was merely pointing out that I didn't exactly have a 36 MCAT and a 3.8 from Harvard. I'm not ashamed to admit that. Most of my classmates aren't hung up about it either.

The 200 OMM hours stat is interesting. Quite a bit of time learning treatment techniques that still lack some significant proof of efficacy and mechanism. Wasn't osteopathy started by AT Still in part as a rejection of 19th century treatment modalities that weren't proven and sound?

No, SJS, I'm not a medical student yet, although I am accepted into a medical school-but I do a lot of reading and spend a lot of time chatting with pre-meds and medical students alike.

You did not make it clear that you were an MD reject from this post...in fact you seemed to be dissociating from the fact you considered MD schools.

Its not my personal view that osteopathic medicine is a social movement as well as a form of medicine. It is the view of Norman Gevitz...I just took his word for it since the man is the expert...he knows more about it than you or I.

Its not that I've taken anything you say personally-its just that some of your previous posts to me seemed a little contradictory and surprising-considering that you are attending an osteopathic school.

I apologize if you felt that I was attacking you personally...the comments I made were specifically that your posts were curious (thus making you seem curious), and that they almost seemed a little bitter and discouraging towards others. This is simply my impression-and I responded to them just to put another view out there...in case any one else had interpreted them the same way-and not to pose a personal attack on you. I had one other person read your posts and they had this impression as well, so perhaps I'm not alone in this-but thats one of the drawbacks of communicating via the written word-tone is lacking

If you do support your profession, -then I take back all of my lecturing on how you need to at least support the osteopathic profession. I certainly made a mistake mentioning the caribbean-I had accidentally attributed someone else's post to you when I wrote that response-so I apologize for that. I'm sure you realize that its important to maintain some individuality within osteopathy-if only to ensure that it continues to be another route to becoming a physician. Its not that I look down on you for your reasons to attend a DO school-in fact I applaud your honesty. I was pointing out that you are incorrect to assume that the majority who attend DO schools are of the same mind as you. Most who attend DO schools do so because they believe in the philosophy and have had good experiences with DOs.

In response to paragraph 2, Point 5- no I am not one of those militant AOA members (or a wanna-be) although I can understand how you might have assumed so from my post. Of course most med students at any school are just going to want to be "good doctors"-but that still doesn't refute their initial reasons for choosing a DO school-once again I am relying upon an expert opinion here, rather than my own limited knowledge.

And I have absolutely no problem with you criticizing what you see lacking in the AOA or in the over blown efficacy of OMT. My personal belief is that OMT is very helpful to learn-you develop good palpatory skills, it teaches you to become comfortable with touching the patient, and for lower back pain I have seen it work wonders. As for other treatments, I'm going to have to see clinical proof before I go touting it.

Perhaps you are right and I misinterpreted everything you said-I haven't been able to find very many positive things you've written about DO philosohy or OMT-except that you are grateful to attend DO school...and you're one of the first to jump down others throats who make devoted comments to the DO philosophy.

I'm not a big AOA crusader-so don't gun me down for one, kay?

I would like to focus on the points and relevant issues here, and not your personal characteristics 🙄 I could care less about those. I'm sorry you feel that I attacked you personally-but a counterattack is hardly mormon of you, is it?
And BTW-smurfs do not suck. They're blue and their cute, and Gargamels theme song is a wonderful piece of classical music.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I certainly appreciate your effort to focus on the issues. (Is this sounding like a campaign, or what?) In the interest of paring down the dialogue, I want to simply respond and/or clarify, all for your reading pleasure.

I was pointing out that you are incorrect to assume that the majority who attend DO schools are of the same mind as you. Most who attend DO schools do so because they believe in the philosophy and have had good experiences with DOs.

Perhaps you are right and I misinterpreted everything you said-I haven't been able to find very many positive things you've written about DO philosohy or OMT-except that you are grateful to attend DO school...and you're one of the first to jump down others throats who make devoted comments to the DO philosophy.

1. You may feel that I'm incorrect in saying most DO students aren't too hung up on philosophy. Perhaps when you start class, you can offer you perspective. Our class, as I'm sure yours will, spends a fair amount of time discussing all sorts of topics like this. From those conversations, I think it's very fair to say that most (not all) emphasize Doctor before we do Osteopathy.

I have several classmates that post here. They can verify this. However, the fact that we have three tests in the next 6 days takes our zeal away from philosophical discussions.

2. You haven't seen too much positive from me simply because you haven't looked. Do a search, or better yet, just ask me.

As far as "jumping down throats", I think we'd all do well to remember that the way thoughts are conveyed in written format sometimes leads to misperception. If I've offended you, I apologize.

On the other hand, I do feel very uncomfortable with "militant" (for lack of a better word) DOs and students in charge of public relations, legislative representation, and medical education. If I seem to come off feeling strongly about the issue: it's because I do.

 

[docbill]

You guys are better then the Vice Presidential debates from last night.

Hahhhh that way funny yesterday... one minupulates that other. What is with this stupid BS that you can't argue with each other.. can't ask questions of each others.

I like the good old days... I guess that was 12 years ago... Clinton vs. Bush Sr. they did not have preset rules. All out attacks and interuptions.

 

[Ypo.]

I certainly appreciate your effort to focus on the issues. (Is this sounding like a campaign, or what?) In the interest of paring down the dialogue, I want to simply respond and/or clarify, all for your reading pleasure.



1. You may feel that I'm incorrect in saying most DO students aren't too hung up on philosophy. Perhaps when you start class, you can offer you perspective. Our class, as I'm sure yours will, spends a fair amount of time discussing all sorts of topics like this. From those conversations, I think it's very fair to say that most (not all) emphasize Doctor before we do Osteopathy.

I have several classmates that post here. They can verify this. However, the fact that we have three tests in the next 6 days takes our zeal away from philosophical discussions.

2. You haven't seen too much positive from me simply because you haven't looked. Do a search, or better yet, just ask me.

As far as "jumping down throats", I think we'd all do well to remember that the way thoughts are conveyed in written format sometimes leads to misperception. If I've offended you, I apologize.

On the other hand, I do feel very uncomfortable with "militant" (for lack of a better word) DOs and students in charge of public relations, legislative representation, and medical education. If I seem to come off feeling strongly about the issue: it's because I do.

I think our main disagreement is that we see commitment to the osteopathic principles in a different light. Because of your unpleasant dealings with "militant" DOs and representatives from the AOA-you see devotion to osteopathic principles as being "too hung-up". I haven't had these experiences yet, so I still think devotion to these principles is a good thing. I doubt I'll change my mind on this issue...I also doubt I'll become a militant DO

I also think its better to emphasize 'doctor' before osteopathy...there is simply not enough meat to osteopathic principles to warrant placing the greater emphasis on OMT...but that became the norm about 100 years ago anyway.

Obviously, I read your posts and interpreted them in a different light than you meant them to be. Apparently you have strong views on the AOA and on the direction they are trying to take-and because the AOA harps about philosophy and OMT so much-you are turned off when you hear "naive" or distasteful pro-osteopathic philosophy and indoctrination. This is the impression I am left with now-feel free to PM me if I got it wrong...once again.

As far as whether or not most DO students are in an osteopathic school because they identify more with osteopathic principles than with allopathic principles...perhaps I will change my mind once I am in school. Of course your classmate friends are going to verify your opinions...we tend to associate with those who we share commonalities with. I know what my reasons for attending an osteopathic school are (or would be), and I know what Gevitz says, and I know what many of my friends who are pre-DO and DO students say, but perhaps you are right...perhaps the majority of people who attend DO schools are simply doing it because their grades weren't good enough for an allopathic school-and osteopathic schools are just another way for them to become a doctor (I find that somewhat depressing). You seem to think this is the case-and based on your earlier post in this thread-you think a lot of borderline applicants simply claim to adopt the DO philosophy as a way of saving face (because their grades weren't good enough). Perhaps you may not recognize some of those who genuinely are attracted to the principles? I want to drop this now, because like I said in my initial post that brought this whole issue up-I just don't know...its just what I think.

Once again, I really apologize if anything I said sounded like a personal attack. I was trying to bring out the larger issues...sometimes its necessary to theorize where the opposite view is "coming from" to do this 😳

 

[BeanieA]

This is just my two cents...As a current applicant, I am applying to both MD and DO schools to increase my chance of acceptance anywhere...But having now interviewed at both schools..At this point I see a major difference in the two....I felt attacked and like I had to defend every grade I got in undergrad(over 3 yrs ago) at the MD interview...while the DO schools were very friendly and I felt like they actually wanted to know what type of person I was....So basically, I think DO schools are really looking for a well rounded person, while MD schools just claim they are..which is pure BS!

 

[OnMyWayThere]

This is just my two cents...As a current applicant, I am applying to both MD and DO schools to increase my chance of acceptance anywhere...But having now interviewed at both schools..At this point I see a major difference in the two....I felt attacked and like I had to defend every grade I got in undergrad(over 3 yrs ago) at the MD interview...while the DO schools were very friendly and I felt like they actually wanted to know what type of person I was....So basically, I think DO schools are really looking for a well rounded person, while MD schools just claim they are..which is pure BS!

I did not apply to any allopathic schools but people who interviewed the same day as me have said the same thing as you said on 2 occasions already. Almost verbatim.

 

[Ypo.]

This is just my two cents...As a current applicant, I am applying to both MD and DO schools to increase my chance of acceptance anywhere...But having now interviewed at both schools..At this point I see a major difference in the two....I felt attacked and like I had to defend every grade I got in undergrad(over 3 yrs ago) at the MD interview...while the DO schools were very friendly and I felt like they actually wanted to know what type of person I was....So basically, I think DO schools are really looking for a well rounded person, while MD schools just claim they are..which is pure BS!

Yes, those are my feelings exactly-I hated my MD interview-I've been treated with respect at the DO interviews-even when they asked hard questions.

 

[medic170]

Yes, those are my feelings exactly-I hated my MD interview-I've been treated with respect at the DO interviews-even when they asked hard questions.

Same here. I thought maybe it was just me. Honestly, my DO interviews helped turn me on to osteopathic medicine even more, whereas the MD ones turned me off to allopathic schools.

 

[docbill]

Another thing I really enjoy with DO schools / Prefession... is the small group. Being a minority is great. You get to know your mates better and interact.

Just look at SDN. On Osteo links, most of us recognize each other... but on Allo... I dought many do.

 

[MizzouDrWannabe]

Although I haven't applied yet, I have been looking at both allo and osteo medicine since I was in HS. I have shadowed a lot of docs, DO's and MD's and I will say that there are both good and bad apples in either group. I think that what makes a good doctor is not the letters behind their name, but the attitude and care they have about their patients and their profession. I would be equally happy at Mizzou or KCOM, at this point, and I know that no matter where I get in and whether my name had DO or MD behind it, I am going to look at my patients not as a group of systems but as human beings and treat them holistically. If you feel that you HAVE to be a DO or an MD, then go for that, but if you just want to be a doctor and are strong in what you believe about patient care then I don't think it matters in the least. Whew, well, that's my $0.02 🙂

 

[Ypo.]

Although I haven't applied yet, I have been looking at both allo and osteo medicine since I was in HS. I have shadowed a lot of docs, DO's and MD's and I will say that there are both good and bad apples in either group. I think that what makes a good doctor is not the letters behind their name, but the attitude and care they have about their patients and their profession. I would be equally happy at Mizzou or KCOM, at this point, and I know that no matter where I get in and whether my name had DO or MD behind it, I am going to look at my patients not as a group of systems but as human beings and treat them holistically. If you feel that you HAVE to be a DO or an MD, then go for that, but if you just want to be a doctor and are strong in what you believe about patient care then I don't think it matters in the least. Whew, well, that's my $0.02 🙂

Word.

I think that because of the four tenets of DO philosophy-the atmostphere at an osteopathic medical school would be more open to alternative and holistic medicine - but I'm beginning to doubt that based on some of the attitudes I've encountered around here. After struggling so long to be like MDs, it seems the DO profession is become too conservative to actually practice what they preach.

*dodging bullets*

 

[vtdo07]

Word.

I think that because of the four tenets of DO philosophy-the atmostphere at an osteopathic medical school would be more open to alternative and holistic medicine - but I'm beginning to doubt that based on some of the attitudes I've encountered around here. After struggling so long to be like MDs, it seems the DO profession is become too conservative to actually practice what they preach.

Okay............I'm going to assume that you are already a DO or current MSIII or IV with that statement. That's a pretty harsh assumption to make unless you have some broad experience within the profession. I have to disagree with your that statement because the daily issues that arise in practice as a physician, DO or MD, in today's medical climate are much different than in the past.
I am still a medical student but I have friends which are current residents, PGY1, PGY2, etc... both DO and MD graduates. They all say the same thing and we are all taught the same thing...........be very careful what you do or you may get sued.
For example, I believe some DOs prefer to cautious with OMM and stay away from HVLA & similar techniques simply because they don't perform them with a great deal of skill. As you know or will soon learn, some OMM techniques can injure a patient if they are not performed correctly and if you are a MSII and up you probably had a classmate perform a technique on you incorrectly that didn't go over well with your now aching body part.
You may want consider holding back with those types of statements until you have more experience under your belt because you might sing a different tune once you see the world of the physician up close and personal.

 

[medic170]

Word.

I think that because of the four tenets of DO philosophy-the atmostphere at an osteopathic medical school would be more open to alternative and holistic medicine - but I'm beginning to doubt that based on some of the attitudes I've encountered around here. After struggling so long to be like MDs, it seems the DO profession is become too conservative to actually practice what they preach.

*dodging bullets*

No offense, but as for me and most of the DO's and DO students I know, we are NOT trying or struggling to "be like MD's". Many Do's and DO students pride themselves on being different than MD's, including myself. I am not going to spend my career struggling to be like an MD, I will be offering an alternate and distinctive, yet equal and equivicol option for medical treatment.

 

[Ypo.]

No offense, but as for me and most of the DO's and DO students I know, we are NOT trying or struggling to "be like MD's". Many Do's and DO students pride themselves on being different than MD's, including myself. I am not going to spend my career struggling to be like an MD, I will be offering an alternate and distinctive, yet equal and equivicol option for medical treatment.

Medic-I'm not referring to you personally (or myself for that matter)-or to DOs personally. I'm not saying that you or any DO or pre-DO is just a wannabe MD in disguise-forgive me if I gave that impression. 🙁

I was referring to the osteopathic profession-and the fact that it has struggled to bring its curriculum up to the standards of MDschools-and it has struggled to gain the same practice rights as MDs.

It prides itself on being different from MDs in several ways-OMM, treating the whole patient and structure and function-holistic-health-oriented medicine. But in practice, the curriculum at a DO school does not differ markedly from the curriculum at an MD school-with the exception of OMM. Sure, at MSUCOM-they teach the DOs to touch the patient first before placing the stethoscope on them-but I don't consider this to be a huge difference-as many doctors -both MD and DO-will do this...its only natural.

So what I was really getting at is that although DOs talk about preventative medicine and holistic/health oriented medicine-in practice they treat patients much the same as MDs-with the one exception that SOME of them do OMM and SOME of them are thinking about how structure affects function.
Also, the three DOs I have shadowed seemed to touch their patients more, which is a good thing-but not a large sample size so I can't qualify this.

But as far as actual treatments...they differ very little from allopathic medicine.

And some of the osteopathic / preosteo students I have talked to seemed very close minded to naturopathic medicine-even though the philosophies are very similar-so similar in fact, that I had to wonder if they copied each other.

 

[Ypo.]

Oh, boy-I knew I was going to end up having to dodge some bullets.

Okay............I'm going to assume that you are already a DO or current MSIII or IV with that statement. That's a pretty harsh assumption to make unless you have some broad experience within the profession. I have to disagree with your that statement because the daily issues that arise in practice as a physician, DO or MD, in today's medical climate are much different than in the past.

No, I'm not a DO student yet-
I didn't make an assumption-you made an assumption.
I didn't assert a claim, take anything for granted or accept something as true without proof-
my exact words were-"I would think that because of the four tenets of DO philosophy-the atmosphere at an osteopathic medical school would be more open to alternative and holistic medicine - but I'm beginning to doubt that based on some of the attitudes I've encountered around here. "
In other words, I was beginning to doubt that DOs are as open to naturopathic/alternative medicine as I had hoped,- based on the some of the attitudes I have encountered around here ('around here' meaning SDN).

Isn't a doubt much different from an assumption or statement? I haven't had much interaction with DOs in the real world on their attitudes and opinions towards naturopath medicine-and I made no claim or statement to the contrary.

I am still a medical student but I have friends which are current residents, PGY1, PGY2, etc... both DO and MD graduates. They all say the same thing and we are all taught the same thing...........be very careful what you do or you may get sued.
For example, I believe some DOs prefer to cautious with OMM and stay away from HVLA & similar techniques simply because they don't perform them with a great deal of skill. As you know or will soon learn, some OMM techniques can injure a patient if they are not performed correctly and if you are a MSII and up you probably had a classmate perform a technique on you incorrectly that didn't go over well with your now aching body part.

Thank you for the advice- I think that my common sense will tell me when OMT is indicated, when acupuncture is indicated-and when an antibiotic is indicated. In my limited experience I have also seen that many DOs and students choose to not perform HVLA or OMM because they are not yet comfortable with the technique-I've seen this firsthand-having shadowed a specialist in OMT many times-as well as students at an OMM clinic.
I think what you're trying to say is that because of lawsuits and other changes in health care-doctors need to be more conservative in their approach.
I'm positive I would never use an HVLA technique, acupuncture, or brain surgery (for that matter) without being adequately prepared and confident in my ability. Hopefully that will help prevent me from getting sued.

You may want consider holding back with those types of statements until you have more experience under your belt because you might sing a different tune once you see the world of the physician up close and personal.

One day I may very well may 'sing a different tune'-that is the beauty of not being stuck on the same song. 🙂 Its also why I made a point to say I was 'beginning to doubt'-rather than stating a formed opinion, or passing an opinion off as a fact ( or an assumption).

If you can offer me any pertinent or useful information on this subject-I would be glad to hear it. Believe me, I would prefer to believe there are more DOs openminded to alternative/holistic medicine than there are DOs closed to it.

 

[Ypo.]

Good god this is a lot of arguing for a thread that was probably started by a troll. That must be some happy troll 😀

 

[vtdo07]

If you can offer me any pertinent or useful information on this subject-I would be glad to hear it. Believe me, I would prefer to believe there are more DOs openminded to alternative/holistic medicine than there are DOs closed to it.

Its seems to me that you have mistakenly taken my response to your post as an attack on your statement rather than some practical advice. I can only make an assumption if it is not clear to me as to what you are saying. I was not trying to put you down in anyway; I was only saying that you need to take a wait and see approach by gaining some experience from the inside looking out. You may be suprised how many people in your medical school environment will agree with your assesment or inform you of something you have yet to learn about.
The point being that don't let you preview of the medical field give you a bad taste in your mouth, try it out for yourself. I know many individuals, fellow classmates and otherwise, that believe in holistic/alternative approaches, however the science on many of these thing is unproven as far as medical doctors go, so there is obviously going to be some hesitency in proclaiming its usefulness. On top of that, as a physician you do not want to be labeled as the "doc with the strange treatments" once in practice. Keep in mind, many patients that seek out holistic and naturapathic medicine are looking for that type of treatment. Most don't want to come to DO or MD and have them tell them to take this herb or what have you. Many come to you to do away with the problem and are expecting something they heard about, saw on the internet, etc...

 

[Cowboy DO]

. On top of that, as a physician you do not want to be labeled as the "doc with the strange treatments" once in practice. Keep in mind, many patients that seek out holistic and naturapathic medicine are looking for that type of treatment. Most don't want to come to DO or MD and have them tell them to take this herb or what have you. Many come to you to do away with the problem and are expecting something they heard about, saw on the internet, etc...

I havent been reading the whole thread so maybe im missing something, but if not this is one of the most asinine thing ive ever read. To think you cant do both...and then get labeled as a bad doctor for it....classic.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

What ever happened to the OP?

 

[vtdo07]

I havent been reading the whole thread so maybe im missing something, but if not this is one of the most asinine thing ive ever read. To think you cant do both...and then get labeled as a bad doctor for it....classic.

Maybe you should have read the entire thread so that you will learn to keep from making asinine comments. Sometimes it best to keep your comments to yourself when you don't know what's being discussed.
People like you are the problem with forum discussions; so much negative to say based on their lack of information and sadly they most often make statements without any sense intelligence for someone who is supposed to be an educated person. Its okay to disagree, but if you have nothing better to say then why make comments that are clearly ignorant. Some people never get it and obviously cowboy you are one of those people

 

[Cowboy DO]

Maybe you should have read the entire thread so that you will learn to keep from making asinine comments. Sometimes it best to keep your comments to yourself when you don't know what's being discussed.
People like you are the problem with forum discussions; so much negative to say based on their lack of information and sadly they most often make statements without any sense intelligence for someone who is supposed to be an educated person. Its okay to disagree, but if you have nothing better to say then why make comments that are clearly ignorant. Some people never get it and obviously cowboy you are one of those people

You cant call a comment I made, about you being asinine, asinine. Thats just asinine.

 

[medic170]

You cant call a comment I made, about you being asinine, asinine. Thats just asinine.

LOL

 

[Ypo.]

Its seems to me that you have mistakenly taken my response to your post as an attack on your statement rather than some practical advice. I can only make an assumption if it is not clear to me as to what you are saying. I was not trying to put you down in anyway; I was only saying that you need to take a wait and see approach by gaining some experience from the inside looking out. You may be suprised how many people in your medical school environment will agree with your assesment or inform you of something you have yet to learn about.
The point being that don't let you preview of the medical field give you a bad taste in your mouth, try it out for yourself. I know many individuals, fellow classmates and otherwise, that believe in holistic/alternative approaches, however the science on many of these thing is unproven as far as medical doctors go, so there is obviously going to be some hesitency in proclaiming its usefulness. On top of that, as a physician you do not want to be labeled as the "doc with the strange treatments" once in practice. Keep in mind, many patients that seek out holistic and naturapathic medicine are looking for that type of treatment. Most don't want to come to DO or MD and have them tell them to take this herb or what have you. Many come to you to do away with the problem and are expecting something they heard about, saw on the internet, etc...

Yes, it did seem like you were accusing me of making assumptions/harsh statements when in reality I was expressing more of a fear.

Thanks for your outlook-I do appreciate it-its nice to hear that there are many DOs open to alternative medicine. I also agree that patients who come to DOs/MDs aren't generally looking for alternative techniques-however, this doesn't mean you can't build your own clientel and reputation. Also, you might be surprised to find how many people would be open to more preventative and holistic types of therapy-if only given that option. My best friend went to go see an MD the other day (not knocking MDs here) and when she left the office she had a prescription for blood pressure medicine-and several other prescriptions-shes 22 and in good health. The thing that bothered her (and me) is that the doctor didn't mention excerise or healthy eating-she just pushed some pills. Thats just not right-and its what I will try to avoid in my practice.

 

[vtdo07]

Yes, it did seem like you were accusing me of making assumptions/harsh statements when in reality I was expressing more of a fear.

Thanks for your outlook-I do appreciate it-its nice to hear that there are many DOs open to alternative medicine. I also agree that patients who come to DOs/MDs aren't generally looking for alternative techniques-however, this doesn't mean you can't build your own clientel and reputation. Also, you might be surprised to find how many people would be open to more preventative and holistic types of therapy-if only given that option. My best friend went to go see an MD the other day (not knocking MDs here) and when she left the office she had a prescription for blood pressure medicine-and several other prescriptions-shes 22 and in good health. The thing that bothered her (and me) is that the doctor didn't mention excerise or healthy eating-she just pushed some pills. Thats just not right-and its what I will try to avoid in my practice.

I completely agree with you that there are many alternatives which should be explored and like you said exercise and healthy eating habits are really simple things that should be incorporated into a healthy lifestyle and is completely free for the patient. Your right, it is up to us to give our patients the best treatment possible. I believe/hope that as the numerous alternative treatments available outside of drugs become acknowledged by the masses as beneficial, we will begin incorporating these things into our "bag of tricks" as physicians on a regular basis.
Someone once said to me, "its not all bad but then again its not all good either...........always keep an open mind". Its good to hear from a future colleague that is open to new things. Best of luck with your first year...............it only gets better from there.

 

[Ypo.]

Thanks 👍

 

[blessed1]

Very well said! 👍

I was an individual that was accepted to both DO and MD programs and I chose DO. The only regret I have in making my choice was that the MD school was closer to my wife, but at the end of the day I would have been choosing the MD for the wrong reason due to my strong feelings about the DO philosophy. If you are hung up on the letters behind your name and not on the level of education you will receive then you are doing this for all the wrong reasons.
The reality of applying to medical school is that very few every make it and the ones that do are fortunate to have the opportunity be it a DO, MD, or a foreign MD degree. Make your choice based on one simple fact. That fact is to be the best doctor to your patients that you can possibly be.

Best of luck with the process...........wherever you go....... 👍

 

[Yasmina]

Future Dr. Either Way,
I too was an allo reject because of my less than competitive MCAT scores. Instead of retaking my MCATs I decided to do a little research on osteopathic medicine and its principles. Today, I am a second year student at WVSOM and I can honestly say that I have no regrets that I decided to take this path. You may or may not choose to practice OPP (OMT, call it what you will) in your practice, BUT the principle of approaching the body as a whole will always be a part of you. I can promise you that this is something your patients will be able to appreciate. Osteopathic students study the body as one unit...making them unique among their medical peers.

Also, just because it is a little easier to get in...it mean it is an easier program. Osteopathic students are required to take and understand the same material as allopathic students (along with OMT). The level of testing, knowledge, etc is EQUIVALENT. I can assure you this by board scores. Many osteopathic students select to take USMILE (allo board) (and COMLEX) to better their chances of getting into an "allo" residency program...these students do just as well as the allo counterparts on the test.

Hope this helps...do your own research...

The best way to find out more about osteopathy is to visit a school and/or speak with an osteopathic physician. Good luck...either path you choose to take...it isn't easy...so HANG IN!

 

[Ypo.]

Also, just because it is a little easier to get in...it mean it is an easier program. Osteopathic students are required to take and understand the same material as allopathic students (along with OMT). The level of testing, knowledge, etc is EQUIVALENT. I can assure you this by board scores. Many osteopathic students select to take USMILE (allo board) (and COMLEX) to better their chances of getting into an "allo" residency program...these students do just as well as the allo counterparts on the test.

Uh...I guess you mean that just because its easier to get into DO schools doesn't mean DO school is any easier than MD school.

Also, as far as I've heard, DO students actually do worse on the USMLE than their MD counterparts.

 

[dr.z]

Future Dr. Either Way,
I too was an allo reject because of my less than competitive MCAT scores. Instead of retaking my MCATs I decided to do a little research on osteopathic medicine and its principles. Today, I am a second year student at WVSOM and I can honestly say that I have no regrets that I decided to take this path. You may or may not choose to practice OPP (OMT, call it what you will) in your practice, BUT the principle of approaching the body as a whole will always be a part of you. I can promise you that this is something your patients will be able to appreciate. Osteopathic students study the body as one unit...making them unique among their medical peers.

Also, just because it is a little easier to get in...it mean it is an easier program. Osteopathic students are required to take and understand the same material as allopathic students (along with OMT). The level of testing, knowledge, etc is EQUIVALENT. I can assure you this by board scores. Many osteopathic students select to take USMILE (allo board) (and COMLEX) to better their chances of getting into an "allo" residency program...these students do just as well as the allo counterparts on the test.

Hope this helps...do your own research...

The best way to find out more about osteopathy is to visit a school and/or speak with an osteopathic physician. Good luck...either path you choose to take...it isn't easy...so HANG IN!

My experience is that it may be harder to graduate from Do program. Majority of allopath use pass/fail. Since I am a graduate student at an allopathic insitution, I know that hardly anyone fails. I cannot say that quality of education at allopathic insitution is better. I don't beleive thier students are better either since I have seen them in class, lab, and so on.

 

[dr.z]

Uh...I guess you mean that just because its easier to get into DO schools doesn't mean DO school is any easier than MD school.

Also, as far as I've heard, DO students actually do worse on the USMLE than their MD counterparts.

Allopathic schools prepare their students for USMLE. Their reputation heavily depends on the average score and pass rates too. DO students are more geared toward COMLEX.

 

[Ypo.]

Allopathic schools prepare their students for USMLE. Their reputation heavily depends on the average score and pass rates too. DO students are more geared toward COMLEX.

I was simply correcting the person who said that DO students do as well on the USMLE as MD students.

I know there are reasons for this, the main reason being the one you just mentioned.