Other Allow doctors in the the US not in residency to help fill the gap in the COVID pandemic

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

University of Abuja is probably better run than SGU. And probably has better faculty as well.

Like I have mentioned before, do you not realize there is an implicit bias which favors US grads and US-imgs?

So how terrible do you think the US-img must be if the grad from "University of Abuja" who worked in a "questionable healthcare system" gets chosen over the US-img?

Look at charting outcomes in the match. It is only a slight bias. Non-USIMGs with really crappy scores are still matching. We need a lot more of a bias.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted480308]

Where did I say they should ban IMGs

I’m not claiming you are, but the notion was pitched in this discussion to give all us grads first dibs and ban imgs until then, i was responding to two points

 

[icykelp]

Not true. My program has a cut off for AMG and IMG. Again, it's not a meritocracy system. We are ok with it the way it is because if favors us.

I will take myself as an example. I am an AMG and I apply in November 22nd 2017 (75 programs) with mediocre score (~220 step1 and mid 220s step2) and still get 9 invites and matched #2 university program. Do you think an IMG can afford to do that?

Everything you've said is true.

PD will always favor the AMGs. I am ok with that. Nothing in life is perfect, so I don't expect the Match process to be either. But to say that an IMG stole a spot from an AMG....that is just laughable.

 

[Splenda88]

Everything you've said is true.

PD will always favor the AMGs. I am ok with that. Nothing in life is perfect, so I don't expect the Match process to be either. But to say that an IMG stole a spot from an AMG....that is just laughable.

I did not use the word "stealing"... I am proposing a system that favors first US citizens heavily instead of AMG...

 

[icykelp]

Look at charting outcomes in the match. It is only a slight bias. Non-USIMGs with really crappy scores are still matching. We need a lot more of a bias.

Do you know where those crappy scoring IMGs matched? Do you know if the unmatched AMGs applied to those spots?

You make a lot of assumptions.

 

[icykelp]

I did not use the word "stealing"... I am proposing a system that favors first US citizens heavily instead of AMG...

There are many kids in undergrad who perform without a blemish to get into US MD schools and US DO schools. Why should they not get rewarded for their work?

Why should the US citizen who went to some fly by night operation on a carib island have the same sort of preference?

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Do you know where those crappy scoring IMGs matched? Do you know if the unmatched AMGs applied to those spots?

You make a lot of assumptions.

No I don't. But I know they matched. And I know that since there are a limited number of positions, it means a USIMG did not match who would have also liked the spot and now has nothing to do for the next year(s).

There is only so much information one can get out of a given set of data. I don't think making a few assumptions is necessarily a bad thing so long as they are realistic.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

There are many kids in undergrad who perform without a blemish to get into US MD schools and US DO schools. Why should they not get rewarded for their work?

Why should the US citizen who went to some fly by night operation on a carib island have the same sort of preference?

Well pretty much 100% of AMGs are US citizens since medical school admissions in this county heavily favor (or essentially require) US citizenship.

We just need to make residency work the same way.

 

[icykelp]

No I don't. But I know they matched. And I know that since there are a limited number of positions, it means a USIMG did not match who would have also liked the spot and now has nothing to do for the next year(s).

There is only so much information one can get out of a given set of data. I don't think making a few assumptions is necessarily a bad thing so long as they are realistic.

Making assumptions is a very bad idea.

The US-imgs that didnt match (and I know a few of them) have had multiple board failures, class failures or other academic issues. Given two identical candidates, with exact scores, "fit" for the program etc, the US citizen almost always comes out on top. Programs arn't eager to sponsor visas in the current political climate.

 

[Splenda88]

There are many kids in undergrad who perform without a blemish to get into US MD schools and US DO schools. Why should they not get rewarded for their work?

Why should the US citizen who went to some fly by night operation on a carib island have the same sort of preference?

I don't remember when I applied for residency that I had to put my undergrad GPA and MCAT score in ERAS...

I am better because I went to a US school even though my med school performance is subpar... My undergrad carries a lot weight on how I am going to take care of my patients. Seriously!

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Making assumptions is a very bad idea.

The US-imgs that didnt match (and I know a few of them) have had multiple board failures, class failures or other academic issues. Given two identical candidates, with exact scores, "fit" for the program etc, the US citizen almost always comes out on top. Programs arn't eager to sponsor visas in the current political climate.

I think you are wrong. The NRMP data really does not suggest this. USIMGs and non-USIMGs both have roughly the same abysmal 59% match rate.

 

[icykelp]

I don't remember when I applied for residency that I had to put my undergrad GPA and MCAT score in ERAS...

I am better because I went to a US school even though my med school performance is subpar... My undergrad carries a lot weight on how I am going to take care of my patients. Seriously!

No, but your undergrad performance got you into a US school.

And graduating from a US med school should have its benefits when it comes time to apply for a residency.

 

[icykelp]

I think you are wrong. The NRMP data really does not suggest this. USIMGs and non-USIMGs both have roughly the same abysmal 59% match rate.

The data is very easily obtained. Look at the 2018 charting outcomes for each specialty. Compare the average matched (and unmatched) data for US-img vs Non US-img for every specialty.

Let me know if find them to be the same.

Edit: When you do read the charting outcomes, you'll realize that non US imgs need higher credentials when it comes to getting a spot in the match, compared to US imgs. This is fact, backed up by objective data. Your spot wasn't stolen. You were outperformed.

 

[Splenda88]

No, but your undergrad performance got you into a US school.

And graduating from a US med school should have its benefits when it comes time to apply for a residency.

We want the best care for our patients... being a US grad does not mean one will provide the best care...

 

[icykelp]

We want the best care for our patients... being a US grad does not mean one will provide the best care...

Graduating from a US school, designed to create doctors for the US health system would be most suited to provide the best care for patients in a US hospital.

Hence the bias favoring US grads.

 

[Splenda88]

My point in this whole thread is for us to check our own bias... Again, I am glad the system protects me. Therefore, I will not be quick to judge someone who wants the system to protect him/her.

 

[Splenda88]

I agree. Graduating from a US school, designed to create doctors for the US health system would be most suited to provide the best care for patients in a US hospital.

Hence the bias favoring US grads.

The same way a US IMG will say he/she is more attuned with US healthcare system or culture; therefore, he/she should be HEAVILY favored.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

The data is very easily obtained. Look at the 2018 charting outcomes for each specialty. Compare the average matched (and unmatched) data for US-img vs Non US-img for every specialty.

Let me know if find them to be the same.

Edit: When you do read the charting outcomes, you'll realize that non US imgs need higher credentials when it comes to getting a spot in the match, compared to US imgs. This is fact, backed up by objective data. Your spot wasn't stolen. You were outperformed.

I mean I just checked the data. I see an almost negligible difference in outcomes.

 

[icykelp]

The same way a US IMG will say he/she is more attune with US healthcare system or culture; therefore, he should be favored.

They are favored.

 

[Splenda88]

They are favored.

HEAVILY favored... like AMG are.

 

[icykelp]

I mean I just checked the data. I see an almost negligible difference in outcomes.

I don't know what you're looking at. But here is the link:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-IMGs.pdf

Take a look at the average step 1/2 for matched US-img vs Non US img for each specialty.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

I don't know what you're looking at. But here is the link:

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-IMGs.pdf

Take a look at the average step 1/2 for matched US-img vs Non US img for each specialty.

This is from 2020. Look at table 4

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Advance-Data-Tables-2020.pdf

Match rate for USIMGs and nonUSIMGs is identical

 

[icykelp]

HEAVILY favored... like AMG

Right...thats the point i've been trying to make all along.

Carcinoma seems to suggest that there is no such bias favoring US-imgs and the residency spots are in fact being stolen from US citizens who performed just as well as the non US imgs.

 

[icykelp]

This is from 2020. Look at table 4

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Advance-Data-Tables-2020.pdf

Match rate for USIMGs and nonUSIMGs is identical

You look at a "match rate" without looking at the credentials for the matched applicants. And that makes no sense.

The link i provided you with shows the actual credentials of the matched candidate for each specialty, US img vs Non US img.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

You look at a "match rate" without looking at the credentials for the matched applicants. And that makes no sense.

The link i provided you with shows the actual credentials of the matched candidate for each specialty, US img vs Non US img.

I am familiar with the charts you posted as well. Like I said, it is only a minor bias with regards to scores on Step 1/2. A USIMG with a 220 on Step 1 has roughly the chances of matching as a non-USIMG with the same. As far as other metrics/credentials go, there is no way to really get that information.

 

[Splenda88]

Right...thats the point i've been trying to make all along.

Carcinoma seems to suggest that there is no such bias favoring US-imgs and the residency spots are in fact being stolen from US citizens who performed just as well as the non US imgs.

I agree that the system favors US IMG a little, but US IMG does not have a huge advantage like AMGs have over all the other groups. For instance, I was told the other day one of my old classmates matched this year into FM with no step 2 CK/CS after failing step 1 twice and step 2 CS/CK once... In other words, she matched w/o ck/cs passing scores

 

[icykelp]

I am familiar with the charts you posted as well. Like I said, it is only a minor bias with regards to scores on Step 1/2. A USIMG with a 220 on Step 1 has roughly the chances of matching into IM as a non-USIMG with the same. As far as other metrics/credentials go, there is no way to really get that information.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-IMGs.pdf

Page 114. Internal Medicine

Average matched US IMG 225/234
Average matched non US IMG 236/241

There is clearly a difference. If you don't see this, I give up.

Edit: What i bolded in your quote is just patently false. The average unmatched non US-IMG had a step 1 of 222 in 2018

 

[icykelp]

I agree that the system favors US IMG a little, but US IMG does not have a huge advantage like AMGs have over all the other groups. For instance, I was told the other day one of my old classmates matched this year into FM with no step 2 CK/CS after failing step 1 twice and step 2 CS/CK once... In other words, she matched w/o ck/cs passing scores

Thats how it has always been. The groups that have bias against them have to work extra hard to match. But when they do match, we have people like Carcinoma saying that its unfair because his citizenship gives him the right to have a better chance in the match process.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2018-IMGs.pdf

Page 114. Internal Medicine

Average matched US IMG 225/234
Average matched non US IMG 236/241

There is clearly a difference. If you don't see this, I give up.

I wouldn't consider 10 points on a basic competency exam to be a huge difference.

But anyway, I started another thread on this topic before interview season and it was discussed ad nauseam. Feel free to read it in my post history. Might interest you.

 

[Splenda88]

I wouldn't consider 10 points on a basic competency exam to be a huge difference.

Not huge but that is a difference since the SEM for step1 was 5 when I took it

 

[icykelp]

I wouldn't consider 10 points on a basic competency exam to be a huge difference.

You are presented with objective data and yet you minimize its implications.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

You are presented with objective data and yet you minimize its implications.

I minimize it's implications because scoring 10 points higher on a board exam is not enough to make up for not being an American citizen and applying for an expensive training spot funded by US taxpayers. The only thing I can think of that would make up for it is living in the US, becoming a citizen and establishing some allegiance to this country, and then applying. I seriously cannot believe you can train to be a doctor in this country on a J-1 visa. The thought of that makes me nauseous.

Since you are Canadian, I assume you plan on going back to work in Canada after residency right? If so, this is the exact problem with the current state of affairs being where they are.

 

[icykelp]

I minimize it's implications because scoring 10 points higher on a board exam is not enough to make up for not being an American citizen and applying for an expensive training spot funded by US taxpayers. The only thing I can think of that would make up for it is living in the US, becoming a citizen and establishing some allegiance to this country, and then applying. I seriously cannot believe you can train to be a doctor in this country on a J-1 visa. The thought of that makes me nauseous.

Kinda like how you left the US to go to a foreign country to get medical training?

Stay nauseous. It is happening and will continue happening.

I am stealing yer jobs.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Stay nauseous. It is happening and will continue happening.

I am stealing yer jobs.

Well maybe COVID will come to the rescue. It is sad that it is going to take an apocalyptic event to change things, but if thats what needs to happen then so be it.

 

[icykelp]

Well maybe COVID will come to the rescue.

Haha. It must be sad to go through life as bitter and unhappy as you are.

Edit: A good source also told me that COVID only targets alien physicians on J1 visas. So there might be some hope for you still.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Haha. It must be sad to go through life as bitter and unhappy as you are.

Edit: A good source also told me that COVID only targets alien physicians on J1 visas. So there might be some hope for you still.

Well at the rate things are going right now, I don't think they are going to be issuing any J1 visas anytime soon.

 

[icykelp]

Well at the rate things are going right now, I don't think they are going to be issuing any J1 visas anytime soon.

Wrong again.

Refer to Post #44 on Page 1 of this thread. They're handing out those J1 visas like candy.

Yep all 4222 of us are coming.

 

[Small Cell Carcinoma]

Wrong again.

Refer to Post #44 on Page 1 of this thread. They're handing out those J1 visas like candy.

Yep all 4222 of us are coming.

Wonderful. I was looking forward to not having to see these people at orientation.

 

[icykelp]

Wonderful. I was looking forward to not having to see these people at orientation.

I am sure the US grads feel the same about you and your caribbean diploma-mill MD. The great circle of life.

 

[Particularlobster3]

I am sure the US grads feel the same about you and your caribbean diploma-mill MD. The great circle of life.

We don’t need to insult each other here. I think what the other user is trying to say is if you are going to be ECFMG certified, US-IMG that means they are qualified and should be given preference because the US is their home aka will stay here for the rest of their lives to serve the people of US.

 

[icykelp]

We don’t need to insult each other here. I think what the other user is trying to say is if you are going to be ECFMG certified, US-IMG that means they are qualified and should be given preference because the US is their home aka will stay here for the rest of their lives to serve the people of US.

And they are given this preference. There is data to back this up.

 

[kayenn]

You are incorrect.

As per: No. 202.10: Continuing Temporary Suspension and Modification of Laws Relating to the Disaster Emergency

Subparagraph (ii) of paragraph (2) of subdivision (g) of 10 N.Y.C.R.R. section 405.4, to the extent necessary to allow graduates of foreign medical schools having at least one year of graduate medical education to provide patient care in hospitals, is modified so as to allow such graduates without licenses to provide patient care in hospitals if they have completed at least one year of graduate medical education;

Thanks so much icy kelp. no point responding to a bitter soul, you can tell their lives are miserable by the amount of hate posting they do on a professional forum like this.

 

[GoSpursGo]

As lovely as the IMG retread-discussion over the last several pages has been, this thread slipped through the cracks--we don't allow posts encouraging our members to sign a petition without express approval, and we wouldn't approve this one.

Thread closed.