Am I crazy? Considering going to more expensive school

[CrinkleCut]

The thread title basically says it all: I'd like to know if I'm crazy. I'll do a thorough posting with details, rationale, etc. Don't sugarcoat it for me--I need the Gospel truth here.

-------------------------------------------

I'm 32-years-old. Happily married, with 3 little kids. I come from a rural area, originally, without an in-state option.

I'm currently accepted to two schools: School A is a public school, but I'm OOS. School B is a private school.

School A (has the full complement of post-doctoral/specialty residency programs)
Estimated 4-year Cost of Attendance ~$415,000

School B (has no post-doctoral/specialty residency programs)
Estimated 4-year Cost of Attendance ~$550,000

-------------------------------------------

I read a decent amount here on SDN and on other forums/message boards, and the consistent, consistent, consistent advice is (everybody say it with me) ALWAYS GO TO THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL POSSIBLE. The fact that I'm considering a more expensive school, especially one that's almost $140k more expensive has me questioning my mental health LOL Here's why I'm considering it:

Clinical Experience at School A

1. Extractions -- 80-100+ // A D4 with whom I spoke said she will have around 100 extractions by the time she graduates, but this includes many extractions performed during a mission trip she took to Asia.

2. Crowns -- 10 are required to graduate // The D4 expects to have completed 15

3. Root Canals on Live Patients -- 4 are required to graduate // The D4 said that very few people do more than 4, because it is fairly difficult to complete this requirement with the patients/clinic that they have

4. Denture Cases -- D4 said, 2 partial dentures, and 2 full-mouth dentures

5. Ortho -- D4 said, no hands-on experience other than putting on bands and making a retainer

6. Implants -- The DMD students do not place implants

Clinical Experience at School B

1. Extractions -- approx 100

2. Crowns -- 12 are required to graduate // I spoke with one of the clinical professors, and he said the school's aim is to have each student complete around 30 crowns before graduating

3. Root Canals on Live Patients -- I spoke with a D3 about a month ago who had already completed 9 root canals before his first semester in the clinic was over, and that he was aiming to complete 40 before he graduated // the clinical professor said that 40 would be "a lot," but that it would be possible, depending on the patients who come to you and their personal needs

4. Denture Cases -- Quote from the clinical professor: "not a ton of partial dentures; lots of full-mouth (and you get the extractions when you do that, too)

5. Ortho -- the students rotate down to the ortho department, and get hands-on experience // As I'm not even in dental school yet, I know very little about the nuts and bolts of orthodontic work, but, on my tour, I personally saw students working on a young man's teeth with wires and brackets, for whatever that's worth.

6. Implants -- Quote from the clinical professor: "the students do most of the work; the professors help with the uncovering at the beginning, but the students do it after a few times; the students use Bicon implants, but the oral surgeons sometimes use Nobel or Astra if necessary; the students do the osteotomies, beginning in D3 year"

-------------------------------------------

A little more about me: I have always been a strong student (HS valedictorian, summa cum laude undergraduate, 4.0 GPA master's degree, 4.0 GPA during my time completing BCP prerequisites for dental school, very high DAT score) and I was towards the top of my (relatively low-paying) field before I decided to pivot toward dentistry. I just couldn't make enough to support my family in that field, even though I love the work and was respected among my colleagues.

I am open to specializing after completing my DDS/DMD, but I am also interested in getting out into the "real world" quickly because I am older than the average dental student. I am open to the possibility of a GPR, should the opportunity present itself, and I think it's a program that's worth it. If I go out into practice right away, especially with the debt load that I'm likely to have, plus the family to support, I want to (as much as this is possible) hit the ground running.

My wife and I currently have no mortgage, student loan, nor credit card debt.

Please give it to me straight! If you have any questions, I would be glad to answer them. I really appreciate any input you are able to offer, as this is a really big decision, and I want to be set up to be successful, rather than putting myself behind the 8-ball.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[free99]

I found myself a little confused reading your post because the schools clinical experience don’t sound that dissimilar aside from rcts. Certainly not $140k in principle (more with interest) difference. Assume you’ll get the bare minimum number of procedures to graduate- any “hopes” that administration relay to you is likely just recruiting. Are the RCTs at school B overseen by GD or endodontists?

Either way, my answer is still a resounding:

School A.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[AppalachianDentalBoy]

School A.

$135,000 difference plus interest of the 10-20 years that it will take to pay that off is crazy. That is an absolutely insane amount of money and is better spent towards buying a practice and more CE. You're 32 so keep in mind how that amount of EXTRA debt is going to effect the lifestyle you can provide for your children. $135,000 is nearly twice what I'm paying for my undergrad degree.

 

[averageasian]

Regardless of which school you go to, you're not going to graduate and have the skills/speed of a dentist with a few years of experience.

Also if you want specialize, know that most PG programs (Not aegd/gpr) charge tuition except for OMFS, Some peds, and the few hospital based programs out there. Depending on the PG school and specialty, that can mean nearly doubling your principal.

In your shoes, school A for sure. This is not a 135K difference, its nearly double that thanks to compound interest. Keep being financially smart and work hard!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Big Hoss

 

[kingme23]

It's very hard to comprehend as a pre-dent why everyone tells you to go to the cheapest school, but I implore you to please listen to that advice and go to the cheapest school. There is no dental school in the country that will make you an expert at a given procedure, it just doesn't exist. You can do 30 root canals in dental school, but that doesn't make you an expert. You can do 300 extractions, that doesn't make you an expert at extracting teeth. Yes, you may do a few more of one thing at one school versus another, but when you start working after graduation IT DOESN'T MATTER. You'll probably do more crowns in 1 month of real life dentistry than you did in 2 years of dental school, so does it really matter how much you did during dental school? That applies to any procedure you can name. The point is, everybody who might be slightly less experienced than you immediately after graduation will catch up very quickly after graduating because you'll get way more experience and exposure to things as a dentist than you did as a dental student.

 

[beannaithe]

School A. As someone currently paying off loans, you will regret going to the more expensive school later. Though honestly at $415k for School A, I might even suggest you try a different field. Those tuition amounts with current interest rates and associate pay rates are like an albatross around your neck.

 

[charlestweed]

I am sure you know by now how expensive it is to raise 3 kids. And if you want your kids to become more well rounded individuals, you'll have to spend a lot more....music lessons, dance classes, SAT classes, sport equipments etc are not cheap. I have 2 kids myself and with our combined student loan of $450k, it's not easy.....and my wife and I each earn 6-figure income. How do you plan to raise your kids while in you are in school? With your wife's income or with student loan money?

With an addtional $140k of student loan for going to the more expensive school, you will have to pay an additional $1500/month for the next 10 years. I've deposited $600 into the saving account every month for each of my kids. And so far each of them has $78k...this amount should reach $100k by the time my older one goes to college. You can do the same for your kids if you attend the less expensive school.

With $550k loan, expect to pay arournd $5.5-6k every month for the next 10 years. With a starting salary of $150k, your take home will be around $9k. After paying back the student loan, you will be left with only $3k to live and to raise your 3 kids. And if your wife's work doesn't offer health insurance, you'll have to spend another $1.5k for that.

 

[956139]

What are the two schools??

 

[956139]

And yeah choose A lol

 

[predent2151]

You would finish a specialty program at almost 40 close to 800k dollars in debt. Then in order to reasonably pay off the debt you’d have to go into ownership which would take a year or 2 to get established putting you at 42 with somewhere in the range of 1.5-2 million dollars in debt. Cheapest school.

 

[hellopeople]

Really teach yourself crowns well on those plastic teeth, and go to the cheaper school.

You'll learn the rest much faster on the outside even if your first six months to a year out are a bit more stressful.

Also, 550k!? The highest estimated COA in the country when I was applying was ~450k. That wasnt even that long ago. Is it really 100k higher already?

 

[periopocket]

In this case, with selection B not even being an IVY, Yes!

 

[Svart Aske]

Can't you apply for in-state tuition after the first year? If so, school A is a no-brainer.

Also, your education is what you make of it. If you are a hustler and work hard and try to learn everything you can, you'll get an excellent education regardless of where you go.

 

[endxication23]

Start off the New Year right and pick the cheaper school..

 

[rock33]

The thread title basically says it all: I'd like to know if I'm crazy. I'll do a thorough posting with details, rationale, etc. Don't sugarcoat it for me--I need the Gospel truth here.

-------------------------------------------

I'm 32-years-old. Happily married, with 3 little kids. I come from a rural area, originally, without an in-state option.

I'm currently accepted to two schools: School A is a public school, but I'm OOS. School B is a private school.

School A (has the full complement of post-doctoral/specialty residency programs)
Estimated 4-year Cost of Attendance ~$415,000

School B (has no post-doctoral/specialty residency programs)
Estimated 4-year Cost of Attendance ~$550,000

-------------------------------------------

I read a decent amount here on SDN and on other forums/message boards, and the consistent, consistent, consistent advice is (everybody say it with me) ALWAYS GO TO THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL POSSIBLE. The fact that I'm considering a more expensive school, especially one that's almost $140k more expensive has me questioning my mental health LOL Here's why I'm considering it:

Clinical Experience at School A

1. Extractions -- 80-100+ // A D4 with whom I spoke said she will have around 100 extractions by the time she graduates, but this includes many extractions performed during a mission trip she took to Asia.

2. Crowns -- 10 are required to graduate // The D4 expects to have completed 15

3. Root Canals on Live Patients -- 4 are required to graduate // The D4 said that very few people do more than 4, because it is fairly difficult to complete this requirement with the patients/clinic that they have

4. Denture Cases -- D4 said, 2 partial dentures, and 2 full-mouth dentures

5. Ortho -- D4 said, no hands-on experience other than putting on bands and making a retainer

6. Implants -- The DMD students do not place implants

Clinical Experience at School B

1. Extractions -- approx 100

2. Crowns -- 12 are required to graduate // I spoke with one of the clinical professors, and he said the school's aim is to have each student complete around 30 crowns before graduating

3. Root Canals on Live Patients -- I spoke with a D3 about a month ago who had already completed 9 root canals before his first semester in the clinic was over, and that he was aiming to complete 40 before he graduated // the clinical professor said that 40 would be "a lot," but that it would be possible, depending on the patients who come to you and their personal needs

4. Denture Cases -- Quote from the clinical professor: "not a ton of partial dentures; lots of full-mouth (and you get the extractions when you do that, too)

5. Ortho -- the students rotate down to the ortho department, and get hands-on experience // As I'm not even in dental school yet, I know very little about the nuts and bolts of orthodontic work, but, on my tour, I personally saw students working on a young man's teeth with wires and brackets, for whatever that's worth.

6. Implants -- Quote from the clinical professor: "the students do most of the work; the professors help with the uncovering at the beginning, but the students do it after a few times; the students use Bicon implants, but the oral surgeons sometimes use Nobel or Astra if necessary; the students do the osteotomies, beginning in D3 year"

-------------------------------------------

A little more about me: I have always been a strong student (HS valedictorian, summa cum laude undergraduate, 4.0 GPA master's degree, 4.0 GPA during my time completing BCP prerequisites for dental school, very high DAT score) and I was towards the top of my (relatively low-paying) field before I decided to pivot toward dentistry. I just couldn't make enough to support my family in that field, even though I love the work and was respected among my colleagues.

I am open to specializing after completing my DDS/DMD, but I am also interested in getting out into the "real world" quickly because I am older than the average dental student. I am open to the possibility of a GPR, should the opportunity present itself, and I think it's a program that's worth it. If I go out into practice right away, especially with the debt load that I'm likely to have, plus the family to support, I want to (as much as this is possible) hit the ground running.

My wife and I currently have no mortgage, student loan, nor credit card debt.

Please give it to me straight! If you have any questions, I would be glad to answer them. I really appreciate any input you are able to offer, as this is a really big decision, and I want to be set up to be successful, rather than putting myself behind the 8-ball.

Bro... I read what the other people wrote and am gonna beat the horse to death further

CHOOSE THE CHEAPER OPTION

Here's why

1. No matter how many procedures they want you to do in Dental School, you will never be fast enough, or good enough as a dentist with even 1 year out of dental school.

2. Prosthodontics will be a mystery in dental school.

3. 4-10 root canals will teach you the technique, but there are much better systems out in the real world that you probably will not learn in school, and the system you use in school, you probably will not use in the real world.

4.Implants: Let's not even go there

Dental School is about learning the basics, and getting that DDS degree.

With what you said about your academic past, you seem like a hard working dude. If you keep on working hard, during and after dental school, you will be fine. While you are in dental school, go to the cheapest one you can find, and get that degree. The student debt is like walking around with an anvil around your neck, so no point choosing the more expensive one.

While you are at it, look into options like the military, as they pay for your school, and also give you a stipend of like 2200 while you are in school, buy you books, camera, loupes etc. You get out, serve 4 years of ADSO (Active Duty Service Obligation), and finish with 0$ in Debt. 0 $!!!!!!!!!!!!
which means, you are 32, you start dental at 33, graduate at 37, serve for 4 years and at 41, you have no debt, and a dental degree.
Heck, you might even get to specialize at no cost, if you so desire (with 2-3 more years of service, of course).

Go to the cheaper school. You will get nothing extra for that 140K.

 

[CrinkleCut]

Thank you to everyone -- I will go to the cheaper school, hustle like mad, and get that DMD degree. Thank you for slapping sense into me!

 

[beannaithe]

Really teach yourself crowns well on those plastic teeth, and go to the cheaper school.

You'll learn the rest much faster on the outside even if your first six months to a year out are a bit more stressful.

Also, 550k!? The highest estimated COA in the country when I was applying was ~450k. That wasnt even that long ago. Is it really 100k higher already?

Yep, I'm not even 10 years out and tuition for my school has literally doubled since I graduated. It's insane.

Good choice, OP. You won't regret it.

 

[lp3k11]

Thank you to everyone -- I will go to the cheaper school, hustle like mad, and get that DMD degree. Thank you for slapping sense into me!

We have the same age, but I don't have children, nor I am married, not even close. But I am already a DDS, and probably a resident soon in a top place by any standard. Go A, the cheapest.

Go to the Internet and see the cv of those who have succeeded at the Mayo Clinic, John Hopkins, The London Clinic, or whatever. It may surprise you, but the top doctors of those places haven't always studied in top universities for their 1st degree or the 2nd. I won't post anything specific here, but is not difficult to search on the clinic websites.

I can imagine what you were thinking. Pay more for more education. True. But, keep in mind that with your savings, you can go post-doc in a top university without tuition. Harvard and the Mass Hosp. has several programmes with a salary. Michigan as well. Columbia. Minnesota. Etc. I know that there are not many programmes, but still they are

Furthermore, with ~$140.000 USD you can even go to Oxford, or Cambridge, or other European Universities, and take one of those MSc Programmes, and still have money left to do something else.

So, go A and good luck. Best wishes

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

John Hopkins

Early Thursday the institution of higher learning formerly known as Johns Hopkins University made a surprising announcement: It was finally dropping that first, awkward "s" and changing its name to John Hopkins University.

The alteration was quickly made to the university's web site, and the media relations staff posted photos of the ditched letter being removed from around campus: A worker in a neon work vest filling in an engraved "s" on a marble sign. A crane pulling a metal "s" off a building.

Even the campus bookstore, in an announcement on the university Web site, was stocking up on Wite-Out to help faculty members update their cards.

"We give up," university President Ronald J. Daniels said. "We're fighting a losing battle here. And we strongly suspect the extra 's' was a typo in the first place."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/01/AR2010040102179.html

Big Hoss

 

[Ivy.ch]

Yep, I'm not even 10 years out and tuition for my school has literally doubled since I graduated. It's insane.

Good choice, OP. You won't regret it.

Tuition here is 20% higher than what it was when we were accepted. And we still have 2 more years left for surprise increases. OP, you better expect those numbers to multiply by the time you're finished. That 550k will certainly be much more.

Jesus, who is still accepting those acceptances! 550k is mind boggling.

 

[AppalachianDentalBoy]

@Ivy.ch People even applying to those schools is mind boggling

 

[Cthuluhoop]

Really teach yourself crowns well on those plastic teeth, and go to the cheaper school.

You'll learn the rest much faster on the outside even if your first six months to a year out are a bit more stressful.

Also, 550k!? The highest estimated COA in the country when I was applying was ~450k. That wasnt even that long ago. Is it really 100k higher already?

The majority of private schools will run you at least $450k all said and done, including interest without a scholarship. Even if you go to a public school out of state it's around $450k too. Heck, my in-state public school is around $375k.

 

[dentistspec123]

Cheapest school, I didnt even bother reading your comparisons. NO SCHOOL is worth an extra 40, 60 100 or even 120k.

However, I agree with a poster above and would reconsider dentistry altogether for debt like that. 400,000 is an easy 3-4000 a mo to your loans even on a 20 year repayment. With average starting gp associate salaries being 120-150000 at the higher end thats about 12,000 a mo. After taxes thats about 7-8k depending on your state and then minus loan paynent, malpractice, health ins, your own retirement plan (because lets face it most jobs will not give you benefits), youre going to be taking home what? 3-4000 for a good few beginning years of your career. You might as well consider a midlevel provider healthcare career with full benefits for your family, less schooling and less debt, paid vacation, less responsibility and stress etc....or military scholarship.


This is just my 2cents though as a practicing specialist, I may be rambling /shrug

 

[Svart Aske]

^Agree completely. The only way that debt load is worth it is if you literally cannot see yourself do anything else other than dentistry, and have the business acumen to open and run a successful practice within a few years of graduation.

 

[setdoc7]

Can't you apply for in-state tuition after the first year? If so, school A is a no-brainer.

Also, your education is what you make of it. If you are a hustler and work hard and try to learn everything you can, you'll get an excellent education regardless of where you go.

I was thinking the same thing. You might get hit with OOS tuition freshman year, but after that it should be smooth sailing on in state tuition.

 

[zToothinator]

I was thinking the same thing. You might get hit with OOS tuition freshman year, but after that it should be smooth sailing on in state tuition.

Not all schools allow students to claim IS status after 1 year. VCU is one school that I know of that has you acknowledge on the supplemental app that you will be unable to ever claim IS status if starting as OOS.

 

[y123]

$100k is a lot of money. It’s higher than 1 year post tax income.
Go to the cheaper school! Nothing is worth the extra $100k!

 

[Hannah Banana]

What are the two schools??

I am pretty sure School B is Midwestern AZ

 

[CrinkleCut]

School B is not Midwestern AZ -- guess again

 

[knewstance]

I am pretty sure School B is Midwestern AZ

This was also my guess due to the Bicon implants.

Second guess is Creighton!

 

[738177]

Cheapest school, I didnt even bother reading your comparisons. NO SCHOOL is worth an extra 40, 60 100 or even 120k.

However, I agree with a poster above and would reconsider dentistry altogether for debt like that. 400,000 is an easy 3-4000 a mo to your loans even on a 20 year repayment. With average starting gp associate salaries being 120-150000 at the higher end thats about 12,000 a mo. After taxes thats about 7-8k depending on your state and then minus loan paynent, malpractice, health ins, your own retirement plan (because lets face it most jobs will not give you benefits), youre going to be taking home what? 3-4000 for a good few beginning years of your career. You might as well consider a midlevel provider healthcare career with full benefits for your family, less schooling and less debt, paid vacation, less responsibility and stress etc....or military scholarship.


This is just my 2cents though as a practicing specialist, I may be rambling /shrug

Right on point.
ROI for attending a private dental school is basically the same as you becoming an OD/PharmD etc. You'll more or less live the same lives, financially speaking. Other careers definitely should be considered if private dental school is the only option.

 

[princeafrica]

Midwestern IL

 

[2TH MVR]

OP ... you sound like a smart person with the proper credentials. As has been said so many times here. Go to the cheapest school. Get your DDS/DMD. Start practicing in the real world. You will soon find out what procedures you like and those that you don't. Attend quality CE to enhance your abilities for those procedures you like.

I get the sense some of you predents are worried that you won't be adequately prepared clinically after graduation. Seriously .... it takes years and years of practice to perfect your abilities.

Agree that at some DS ... you get more clinical exposure, but in time .... it all evens out .... except for one thing. DEBT.

IMO .... it's more important to have options after DS (buy or start a practice in a year or two, partnerships, etc) which is easier if you do not have a HUGE debt. I mentioned this in another post. Banks are less likely to loan money to a recent grad if they have huge DS debt.

Think LONGTERM.

 

[Hannah Banana]

School B is not Midwestern AZ -- guess again

MWU-IL???

 

[PhansterZ]

Go to Louisville. Dental school will teach you only the basics, you'll get most of your training during your first year of practice.
And if you want to specialize, it's a great place to observe every specialty.