Am I delusional at this point?

[ADDwildlife80545]

I am in my 4th year of undergrad and I'm still Pre Vet. When ilI tell people that I am still Pre Vet, they have a questionable look in their eyes, like I shouldn't be pre vet. Why? Well, I've retaken the entire gen chem series, have recieved mediocre grades in major classes, and I am currently retaking the first o chem. I love vet medicine and in classes where we practice technical skills and the like, I thrive and am reminded how much I love it. But I struggle immensely in academic classes because the environment of being with other pre vet students gives me anxiety and causes me to shut down. The competition freaks me out and it has shown in my grades. I have a cumulative college GPA of 2.6 and it has been a continuous struggle to bring it up. I also have basically no experience in vet clinics. Currently I am interning at a clinic, but I am not allowed to do much besides watch. I know I won't be attending vet school right away because I just don't compare right now, but am I being delusional thinking that eventually I will attend vet school with my experience and my school career being the way it has been? Or should I give up now?

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[mht2k3]

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/what-are-my-chances.820748/

 

[CheeryMartini]

You are not delusional, if anything you seem overly-critical. I mean yes, it does sound like you don't have the most competitive application, but you clearly have the passion for the career. If your academics are on the weaker side, you should really focus on experience. If you're in the US, consider applying to your local Banfield as a vet assistant. There is about 8 weeks of training though (and it's essentially full-time), so you should apply right before summer begins (it usually takes them about 2 weeks to get back to you). You don't need any experience to apply, but you learn SO MUCH.

Another option: your local shelters. They are more lenient than private clinics about volunteers getting hands on experience. It is quite easy to work as a recovery monitor at your local shelter or even at low cost vet clinics (i.e. Emancipet). Also, judging from your username, you seem to be interested in wildlife? Consider joining your local wildlife rescue, if you haven't already. Chances are they have a vet team there as well. If you volunteer there long enough, they'll probably let you get some veterinary experience as well.

 

[JaynaAli]

Is it impossible? No. Will it be easy? No. Should you give up? Maybe. Maybe not.

There are people who have recovered from sub-3.0 GPAs that are now successful veterinarians. You need to do as well as possible in every course from here on out and retake classes you have done poorly in. Research schools and figure out which ones place more emphasis on last-45, science, and prerequisite GPAs than cumulative GPAs, find the ones that replace grades instead of averaging them, etc. Apply smartly, consider moving to a state you have decent chances at an in-state spot for if you don't have an in-state school. I agree with the previous poster who says to get lots of experience, but experience does not completely make up for a poor GPA. It sucks, but that is the way it is. Veterinary school is a literally like drinking from a firehose of information and taking 20+ credit hours of hard science courses each semester. Unfortunately, one of the predictors schools use for who will be successful in vet school is GPA.
My concern from what you've stated is that you say you struggle with pre-vet courses because of perceived competitiveness from your peers. I have unfortunate news for you though...that does not go away once in vet school. Yes, there is a sense of camaraderie in vet school, but as a profession we are full of type A, gunner students and those competitive people exist in vet school too. So I think you may need to figure out why you feel that way and see what you can do to allay those fears and their affect on your grades. Before vet school. Also really do some self evaluation and see if that is the sole reason you've been struggling in courses. Are you studying effectively or just showing up, reading a textbook but not learning, etc. I think there are almost always ways we can fine-tune our studying technique and make improvements.
Also, 'just watching' at a clinic is not the worst thing. In some ways that is better than 'hands on' because you can directly watch and ask questions of the vet (when it is appropriate to do so) rather than being the low man on the ladder sent to clean kennels or restrain for techs. On the other hand you could argue that you aren't learning tech skills and you feel in the way...it's a trade off. Some people really like the paid positions (which is what I had, predominately), but I know several people who's only vet experience was shadowing. So I wouldn't discount shadowing.

I guess my tl;dr advice for you is that it isn't impossible but it will be a long, difficult road for you to get there and it is not wrong to pursue something else. I think so many people have wanted to be a vet from age 5 and getting into vet school becomes their singular focus in life...and it doesn't have to be. If you are passionate about it and sure that is what you want to do, go for it. But really spend time in clinics, talk to vets, bust your butt to get As in the rest of your classes, think long and hard about the issues in the profession (especially the debt to income ratio problems), and then decide.

 

[TrashPanda]

But I struggle immensely in academic classes because the environment of being with other pre vet students gives me anxiety and causes me to shut down.

Academic anxiety is common, but if you don't do anything about it, it won't get better on its own. I suggest looking into your school's counseling/mental health resources. If you don't know where to start, talk to an RA or a professor. It sounds like you need to get your anxiety under control in order to get your GPA up, which is necessary in order to get in to vet school. And getting it under control will definitely be needed to succeed in vet school.

There are some schools that do not look at early grades, but you still need to get your grades up considerably to have any chance of being accepted. When you get closer to applying, look at schools that consider recent grades (generally the last 45 credits) but not cumulative GPA.

 

[Abnerrs]

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer but you also need to look at the long term. A very large part of veterinary school is academic, and you'll be surrounded by very smart, competitive people. That is just the nature of getting into vet med. (Please don't read that as me saying you aren't smart, I'm not at all. I'm just saying vet students are an intelligent bunch). And it doesn't really get better any of the years. I'm in 4th year and on rotations we have rounds and we all have to talk out loud, in front of other students and clinicians, using our knowledge base. So if you shut down, know that vet school is a competitive place. And I say that as one of the least competitive people in my class.

Outside of the atmosphere, vet school is hard. Really hard academically. Because it is all science based classes with information coming at you at a rate you didn't think was possible. You learn to sprint academically.

Like I said, I don't mean to be so negative. I had heard getting into vet school was the hard part. My experience is that it's all the hard part.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Exactly. There is a certain degree of sacking up that needs to happen here. Blaming bad grades on a competitive environment sounds like more like an attempt to separate the misery from the blame to me. If your anxiety is that bad, you need to take ownership of that fact and aggressively try to fix the problem.

 

[Tulojow]

I agree with many of the things being said. and had an additional thought. If the 'hands on'-y and technical skills aspect of classes is where you're really thriving, have you considered becoming a veterinary technician? Especially if the academic side of the classes are anxiety-inducing, that might either be a good starting point or even a better option. There are a lot of fulfilling and rewarding roles in the veterinary field - maybe it's worth taking a step back and analyzing what you really want to do and why you're drawn to the role of veterinarian.

I, ironically, was the type of kid that thought I did not like sciences. I struggled with math and science through high school and even during my undergrad career (I originally studied history and languages). I loved working with animals but was more interested in the hands-on, direct connection. Like you, I wasn't a fan of the academic rigor. I had lots of people telling me I should be a vet but I was very adamant that I did not want to pursue that.

I spent five to six years working as a vet tech. I loved it. It also increased my confidence and gave me the motivation to return to school, eventually. It took me about 15 years to finally get back to pre-veterinary classes but it was much easier to find my place in the academics with that background.

Just some thoughts!

 

[deleted676737]

Like I said, I don't mean to be so negative. I had heard getting into vet school was the hard part. My experience is that it's all the hard part.

Just quoting this to reiterate it because it is so true. Many pre-vets tend to have the expectation that getting into vet school is the hardest part of the entire process; it may be for a few students, but vet school itself is really tough academically and it can absolutely have a very real effect on your mental health. Doing well in vet school---and even simply staying in, for some people---is quite a bit more difficult than getting admitted was. And then I can only imagine that actually practicing is even harder than that as you are responsible for your patients' lives and well-being, as well as meeting the sometimes unreasonable expectations of clients and employers.

With a 2.6 GPA after four years of undergrad, it is going to take quite a lot to repair your academics, unfortunately. Retaking as many pre-reqs as possible for As might help, as will taking additional upper division science courses. A masters or post-bacc program may also help out the GPA somewhat but at a 2.6 with four years worth of credits amassed I'm afraid it is likely to be quite the endeavor to make a massive improvement. You could take some classes for As and aim for as close to 4.0 as possible for your last 45 hours GPA, as some schools weigh it heavily, if that is an option. Some schools do have a defined GPA cutoff to even be considered (usually 3.0) so that may mean you're out the running right off the bat at such schools. You might need to be selective about where you choose to apply. So, yes, there are ways to fix the GPA, but they are likely to be time-consuming and expensive---only you can decide if those avenues worth it.

I second the recommendation to post in the What Are My Chances thread. It's difficult to get the full picture of what your application may look like without all of the details.

As for the competitive environment... it unfortunately doesn't go away in vet school, as much as you think that it would. At least not at first. I mentioned in another thread the other day that I had a friend of mine confess to me that she was basically told that she couldn't study with a certain group of classmates because she wasn't "in the top 5% of the class". There's been multiple accounts of cheating already and we've barely cleared a semester at this point---one of those incidents was literally for a quiz worth a whopping 2 points. There's definite snootiness going on in the some of the cliques within our class. Extreme examples? Yeah, probably. But it does happen. It does not stop in undergrad. If anything, I haven't heard and seen such petty drama and competition between classmates since high school. It will vary by class somewhat (the c/o 2019 and 2018 here are both really chill in comparison... though they might have started out like us and then just became apathetic about the whole thing since vet school really does blow a lot of the time), but it is still there. I'm experiencing the worst anxiety I have had since my junior year of high school, where I was constantly in and out of major depressive episodes. Everyone experiences vet school differently and there are absolutely some students who thrive in that environment, but I would be willing to wager a guess that the majority of us do struggle at times. It's not an easy environment to be in every day 8-5, if you catch my drift.

I'm not trying to discourage you from trying if it is what you really want, but just keep it in mind. Also keep in mind the extreme debt:salary ratio that newly graduated vets are dealing with; take advantage of your current internship. Ask the vet(s) good questions about the time and financial investments involved with the education and training, see what the day to day is like, and then decide whether or not it is still something you want to pursue or if there are other career paths that interest you more or have better return on investment (absolutely no shame in changing paths, either, by the way).

If nothing else, I sincerely urge you to get your anxiety issues under control before trying for vet school. Seriously.

 

[ADDwildlife80545]

I agree with many of the things being said. and had an additional thought. If the 'hands on'-y and technical skills aspect of classes is where you're really thriving, have you considered becoming a veterinary technician? Especially if the academic side of the classes are anxiety-inducing, that might either be a good starting point or even a better option. There are a lot of fulfilling and rewarding roles in the veterinary field - maybe it's worth taking a step back and analyzing what you really want to do and why you're drawn to the role of veterinarian.

I, ironically, was the type of kid that thought I did not like sciences. I struggled with math and science through high school and even during my undergrad career (I originally studied history and languages). I loved working with animals but was more interested in the hands-on, direct connection. Like you, I wasn't a fan of the academic rigor. I had lots of people telling me I should be a vet but I was very adamant that I did not want to pursue that.

I spent five to six years working as a vet tech. I loved it. It also increased my confidence and gave me the motivation to return to school, eventually. It took me about 15 years to finally get back to pre-veterinary classes but it was much easier to find my place in the academics with that background.

Just some thoughts!

I have considered becoming a vet tech and for a long time it was my plan to finish school and eventually become a registered vet technician, but I am realizing more and more that I want to do more than just that. I want to be the one doing surgeries and things in those fields as opposed to just being the tech to the veterinarian.

 

[LetItSnow]

I am realizing more and more that I want to do more than just that. I want to be the one doing surgeries and things in those fields as opposed to just being the tech to the veterinarian.

Then the path straightforward is very clear, though very difficult:

1) Get control of your anxiety. If you haven't done anything active to resolve it, then you aren't taking it seriously and you're using it as an excuse. You can't blame your failure on your classmates' success.
2) Get A's. You don't really have a lot of options. I mean, ok, a few B's is no big deal. But you don't have wiggle room anymore.
3) Get experience. A good variety.
4) Get some really amazingly awesome LORs - you're going to need people saying "we NEED this person in vet med".
5) Target schools that look at things like "last 45 credit" GPAs because shoot, you could potentially be a 4.0 candidate that way.

I failed out of undergrad 3 times. I got into vet school. You can, too. But you need to fix your academic problems now and start doing excellently.

Don't get overwhelmed by the list above. Take it one little step/week/month at a time. Celebrate successes on the way.

And just a quick bit of advice: Don't ever use the phrase "just being the tech." I can't do my job without my techs. They are the best of the best, and they can do 90% of my job without me, and frequently do. They read my mind and know exactly what I want even before I do. It's only the 10% of the time where I'm really needed.

 

[love2hunt]

I don't buy into the theory that a person can be anything they want to be. I think culture has been selling that lie and it is setting many people up for major disappointment. You wanna talk delusional? I thought I could be an NBA player. Anybody who has watched me play basketball would tell you THAT idea was delusional! Now, that is an extreme example, as I'd say your chances of getting into vet school are much more realistic than me playing in the NBA. However, here's my point: just because you really like something and really want something doesn't mean you are suited for it.

I was in a very different career (working for churches and pastoring) before I got back into animals. During my undergrad years, there were signs that I ignored that were screaming at me not to pursue the path I was on. I ignored those warning signs and went for it. A big part of it was pride and not wanting give up on what I had set out to do. After putting in the time and effort of good grades, making connections, internships, etc., I really ended up hating my first job. I moved from VA to AZ because I thought that the first job was a bad fit for me and that I just needed a change. In reality, I was a bad fit for the job. I was simply not suited for it. Most people would have never known, but I was miserable, constantly stressed, and always daydreaming about doing anything other than my current job.

I do think that time was being used by God to make me into a better person and a better future vet. However, there's been many times the last several years where I wished I had listened to those warning signs and not pushed through them.

All that to say: maybe these are your warning signs. Don't let stubbornness and pride keep you on a path that is itself telling you may be the wrong one. Even if you were to get accepted, you may find yourself in a position like I was, where you are saying, "HA! I did it! I made it!... and now I'm miserable." Only you can decide if that's what this is (or not).

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Then the path straightforward is very clear, though very difficult:

1) Get control of your anxiety. If you haven't done anything active to resolve it, then you aren't taking it seriously and you're using it as an excuse. You can't blame your failure on your classmates' success.
2) Get A's. You don't really have a lot of options. I mean, ok, a few B's is no big deal. But you don't have wiggle room anymore.
3) Get experience. A good variety.
4) Get some really amazingly awesome LORs - you're going to need people saying "we NEED this person in vet med".
5) Target schools that look at things like "last 45 credit" GPAs because shoot, you could potentially be a 4.0 candidate that way.

I failed out of undergrad 3 times. I got into vet school. You can, too. But you need to fix your academic problems now and start doing excellently.

Don't get overwhelmed by the list above. Take it one little step/week/month at a time. Celebrate successes on the way.

And just a quick bit of advice: Don't ever use the phrase "just being the tech." I can't do my job without my techs. They are the best of the best, and they can do 90% of my job without me, and frequently do. They read my mind and know exactly what I want even before I do. It's only the 10% of the time where I'm really needed.

This is so important to realize, and the earlier you realize it, the better. IMO, a good doctor is one who realizes he/she is practically non-functional without techs. A good practice has excellent techs, they can make or break your business. Most of the techs I know are intimidatingly intelligent and are more than capable of practicing as a doctor, they just chose to be a tech (there is typically more patient/client contact, more hands on tech work, etc. that people want to do).

We have an instructor here that insists all techs are good for is "checking boxes," and that is a toxic attitude. I'm not saying you feel that way wildlife, but just be aware how critical techs are to the field and how thinking of them as "just a tech" will get you no where. Treat the techs well wherever you go and it will go a long way.

 

[MDB74]

Delusional? Maybe, or maybe not. But it's worth mentioning that you're at an inflection point here. Everyone else has laid out what you need to do: 4.0 post-bacc, tons of experience, killer LORs, ect. Keep in mind that getting these things is a multi year commitment at this point and does not guarantee getting in. If you're willing to commit to several years more work at a much higher level than you've put out so far then it is totally possible and I say go for it. If you think that fixing your application and getting to competitive level is something you're gonna do this application cycle (or even probably the next one) then you might be delusional. At this point you either have to go all in or look into doing something else (vet tech or not vet-related field).

 

[LetItSnow]

Most of the techs I know are intimidatingly intelligent and are more than capable of practicing as a doctor,

I wouldn't go that far. They don't have the training to be a doctor. The 10% of the time I'm actually needed is an important 10%.

(Unless you just meant they have the smarts to become a doctor if they want. That's probably true.)

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I wouldn't go that far. They don't have the training to be a doctor. The 10% of the time I'm actually needed is an important 10%.

(Unless you just meant they have the smarts to become a doctor if they want. That's probably true.)

yep, that's what I meant!

 

[VetMed812]

You're only delusional if you give up and don't succeed. If you don't want it then don't worry. If you do figure out how to get in a window because the door is locked.

Edit: I saw hidden figures last night. I'm inspired!! Haha

 

[MDB74]

You're only delusional if you give up and don't succeed. If you don't want it then don't worry. If you do figure out how to get in a window because the door is locked.

I already posted one semi-downer message in this thread but I'm going to go ahead and churn out another because I disagree with this so much. After 4 years as a pre-vet OP is nowhere closer to vet school than a freshman (worse off, actually). Is it possible to get in from this point? Absolutely. Is there any shame at looking at that path and turning it down? Absolutely not. There are a lot of other good careers within and outside of vet med that don't involve becoming a doctor. Realistically analyzing the situation and making the best choice for him/her is what OP has to do right now.

 

[VetMed812]

I already posted one semi-downer message in this thread but I'm going to go ahead and churn out another because I disagree with this so much. After 4 years as a pre-vet OP is nowhere closer to vet school than a freshman (worse off, actually). Is it possible to get in from this point? Absolutely. Is there any shame at looking at that path and turning it down? Absolutely not. There are a lot of other good careers within and outside of vet med that don't involve becoming a doctor. Realistically analyzing the situation and making the best choice for him/her is what OP has to do right now.

I hear ya but if this user does not continue to pursue it they may not expose themselves to the careers you are referring. Be a downer if you want, I support the pursuit. There are plenty of us here that were told not to bother pursuing this profession, luckily I had more people supporting my decision than were against it. I'm simply offering support with the acknowledgement that they may not want it and it may be unsuccessful due to barriers. Plus I like a good underdog story.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I already posted one semi-downer message in this thread but I'm going to go ahead and churn out another because I disagree with this so much. After 4 years as a pre-vet OP is nowhere closer to vet school than a freshman (worse off, actually). Is it possible to get in from this point? Absolutely. Is there any shame at looking at that path and turning it down? Absolutely not. There are a lot of other good careers within and outside of vet med that don't involve becoming a doctor. Realistically analyzing the situation and making the best choice for him/her is what OP has to do right now.

I hear ya but if this user does not continue to pursue it they may not expose themselves to the careers you are referring. Be a downer if you want, I support the pursuit. There are plenty of us here that were told not to bother pursuing this profession, luckily I had more people supporting my decision than were against it. I'm simply offering support with the acknowledgement that they may not want it and it may be unsuccessful due to barriers. Plus I like a good underdog story.

Both of you have valid points, honestly. There is nothing wrong with the pursuit as long as you are pursuing the goal with a realistic idea of your chances and preparing/pursuing a backup plan at the same time. If OP does decide to apply to vet school, it would be good to set a max number of tries, how much money and time you're willing to spend to improve your application, etc. The hard part is realizing you're potentially devoting years of gaining experience/retaking classes for a career you'll never reach. Some people aren't willing to make that bet, and it's completely understandable.

 

[MDB74]

I hear ya but if this user does not continue to pursue it they may not expose themselves to the careers you are referring. Be a downer if you want, I support the pursuit. There are plenty of us here that were told not to bother pursuing this profession, luckily I had more people supporting my decision than were against it. I'm simply offering support with the acknowledgement that they may not want it and it may be unsuccessful due to barriers. Plus I like a good underdog story.

You're missing my point. I support the pursuit of OP no matter what they choose to do but it's important to make informed choices. Nowhere did I say that OP shouldn't give it a shot if their heart is fully into it. It's important for them to realize that if they want to get in they need to sack up and perform academically, probably while working at least one job to get hours. Unlike what you said in your first post, it is not delusional to decide that's not a path they want to go down. Underdog stories are great but we're not talking idealism here. We're talking about the long hard road OP is going to have to go down to follow their dreams and the deserve a real assessment of what that's gonna take.

Both of you have valid points, honestly. There is nothing wrong with the pursuit as long as you are pursuing the goal with a realistic idea of your chances and preparing/pursuing a backup plan at the same time. If OP does decide to apply to vet school, it would be good to set a max number of tries, how much money and time you're willing to spend to improve your application, etc. The hard part is realizing you're potentially devoting years of gaining experience/retaking classes for a career you'll never reach. Some people aren't willing to make that bet, and it's completely understandable.

Exactly.

 

[LetItSnow]

I already posted one semi-downer message in this thread but I'm going to go ahead and churn out another because I disagree with this so much. After 4 years as a pre-vet OP is nowhere closer to vet school than a freshman (worse off, actually). Is it possible to get in from this point? Absolutely. Is there any shame at looking at that path and turning it down? Absolutely not. There are a lot of other good careers within and outside of vet med that don't involve becoming a doctor. Realistically analyzing the situation and making the best choice for him/her is what OP has to do right now.

Eh.

Yes and no.

I mean, if people only ever did what was 'realistic', we wouldn't have some pretty amazing accomplishments. Stretch goals are what make things impressive, after all.

And you're not really accounting for growth and change. Like I noted, I failed out of undergrad 3 times as a 'traditional' student. It took me some years to get life under control, I went back, and I was a 4.0 student the next go-around. So sometimes it just takes some time, some reflection, and some growth.

I agree with the general nature of your post - it's important to be realistic - but just because someone has started out poorly doesn't mean they can't turn things around if they are sufficiently motivated.

 

[TheNerdiestRedneck]

Hey OP, I'm in pretty much exactly the same situation as you, same GPA (feel free to message me/check out my posts). While I certainly don't plan on giving up, I've come to the realization over the past year that I should allow myself to explore other possibilities as well. Keep going!