AMA at your school

[DocEspana]

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The super short version of this topic (without the background information im about to delve into) is: does your school have an AMA chapter and do you feel its diminished or pushed to the side at all since there is SOMA as well?

now here is the background. At TouroCOM the AMA dominates SOMA in size, activities funded, funding, and general visibility at the school. And our SOMA is prob our 3rd most active group at the school, but they just aren't anywhere near as visible and active as the AMA is. I figured that this may not be the case at all the schools, but i figure AMA and SOMA should prob be the 1 and 2 (or vice versa) most active groups in the school.

So I've been going to all the AMA national meetings. For those who didn't know this, the AMA (particularly the student section) is super DO friendly and aggressively markets to DO student to attend because they want our input. And at these meetings the DO turnout is pretty pathetic. I'm prob going to forget some school, but the turnout is pretty much all three Touro's, Kirksville, Northwestern, and Oklahoma as far as my memory serves me.

And that is shocking to me. A little prodding around led to me hearing an anecdote (cant confirm if its correct) that the students are not allowed to have a student AMA at NYCOM. And that other DO schools have very poorly funded AMAs or AMA branches that are not allowed to go to conferences even though SOMA can go to their conferences which are in the same city usually a week before or after the AMA conference.

Can anyone comment on what the state of the AMA chapter at their school is? I know as of right now that NYCOM is actually not considered an AMA member because they have refused to attend any AMA event in so long. (Again, no one can tell me *why* this is the case except in anecdotes. but the loss of membership is factually the case because I've seen the logs that Medical society of state of ny keeps)

 

[Lukat]

The super short version of this topic (without the background information im about to delve into) is: does your school have an AMA chapter and do you feel its diminished or pushed to the side at all since there is SOMA as well?

now here is the background. At TouroCOM the AMA dominates SOMA in size, activities funded, funding, and general visibility at the school. And our SOMA is prob our 3rd most active group at the school, but they just aren't anywhere near as visible and active as the AMA is. I figured that this may not be the case at all the schools, but i figure AMA and SOMA should prob be the 1 and 2 (or vice versa) most active groups in the school.

So I've been going to all the AMA national meetings. For those who didn't know this, the AMA (particularly the student section) is super DO friendly and aggressively markets to DO student to attend because they want our input. And at these meetings the DO turnout is pretty pathetic. I'm prob going to forget some school, but the turnout is pretty much all three Touro's, Kirksville, Northwestern, and Oklahoma as far as my memory serves me.

And that is shocking to me. A little prodding around led to me hearing an anecdote (cant confirm if its correct) that the students are not allowed to have a student AMA at NYCOM. And that other DO schools have very poorly funded AMAs or AMA branches that are not allowed to go to conferences even though SOMA can go to their conferences which are in the same city usually a week before or after the AMA conference.

Can anyone comment on what the state of the AMA chapter at their school is? I know as of right now that NYCOM is actually not considered an AMA member because they have refused to attend any AMA event in so long. (Again, no one can tell me *why* this is the case except in anecdotes. but the loss of membership is factually the case because I've seen the logs that Medical society of state of ny keeps)

😕 I thought Northwestern is an MD school???

 

[DocEspana]

😕 I thought Northwestern is an MD school???

it has both. and northwestern definitely attends all the AMA meetings since they're held once a year in chicago, so they basically can walk to the conference. I was quite jealous of the apts I saw rented by a few of the students when i was down there. My manhattan closet sized one does not compare.

 

[DrBowtie]

it has both. and northwestern definitely attends all the AMA meetings since they're held once a year in chicago, so they basically can walk to the conference. I was quite jealous of the apts I saw rented by a few of the students when i was down there. My manhattan closet sized one does not compare.

😕 Northwestern isn't a DO school?

 

[DrWBD]

The AMA pushed VERY hard to obliterate osteopathic medicine and prevent cooperation between MDs and DOs in the past. They "welcome" us now because their membership has declined dramatically in the last 30 years.

From Wikipedia:
"The relationship of the osteopathic and medical professions was often "bitterly contentious"[18] and involved "strong efforts" by medical organizations to discredit osteopathic medicine.[35] Throughout the first half of the twentieth century, the policy of the American Medical Association labeled osteopathic medicine as a cult and osteopaths were seen as "cultist." The AMA code of ethics declared it unethical for a medical physician to voluntarily associate with an osteopath.[6][36]"

 

[DocEspana]

absolutely... except the AMA banned discrimination against DOs within its own organization about 25 years ago. I realize the bad blood is there. but the detente is older than I am. We've had DO's lead the State AMAs and be leaders of the national AMA. One of the two NY student representatives to the AMA is a DO. The bad blood exists because old MDs still raise their nose and old DOs still have napoleonic complexes. But I am shocked that its effecting the student AMA membership because the AMA itself has been absurdly welcoming to me (admittedly for 2 years), and I'm told its been like this since the early 90s. (it did take some time for that no discrimination thing to be the norm.. haha... yeaaaaa)

Dont get me wrong, i wont dispute the facts of the past. Cannot. Its true. But it doesn't exist any longer, and somewhat of a ideological flip has happened with us being especially cherished there (and not in a falsely friendly way. the DO events are largely attended by MD students). Just curious what the chapter standing is at each school, because the AMA will just spew money into the school if you have an AMA chapter. For all that they are 'losing membership' (which isnt true, its been steadily that bad/low for well over 30 years) they have money to spare and im surprised schools arent taking them up on it.

The AMA pushed VERY hard to obliterate osteopathic medicine and prevent cooperation between MDs and DOs in the past. They "welcome" us now because their membership has declined dramatically in the last 30 years.

From Wikipedia:
"The relationship of the osteopathic and medical professions was often "bitterly contentious"[18] and involved "strong efforts" by medical organizations to discredit osteopathic medicine.[35] Throughout the first half of the twentieth century, the policy of the American Medical Association labeled osteopathic medicine as a cult and osteopaths were seen as "cultist." The AMA code of ethics declared it unethical for a medical physician to voluntarily associate with an osteopath.[6][36]"

 

[DocEspana]

i should also say that i do not know how relevant this policy was cause i was told pay discrimination ended in the early 90's, but seeing as pay discrimination by the government was formally and officially outlawed only in 2005, i could understand if anyone who graduated before then is miffed because the AMA didnt make that an issue to offically ban til then.

but really, im curious what the situation with current students (and i guess residents since theyd almost all be post 2005 as well) is like.

 

[st2205]

Northwestern is an MD school in Chicago. Midwestern is a DO school in Chicago.

 

[DocEspana]

Northwestern is an MD school in Chicago. Midwestern is a DO school in Chicago.

you say tomato, I say chicago

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm at KCOM, and we have a good AMA or Student AMA or what the hell ever chapter at my school. I really don't pay much attention, but it seems as active/same size as SOMA. Again though, I think KCOM was one of the schools you mentioned as having a decent chapter.

In reality though ... I don't know why med students should support the AMA, physicians clearly don't and the pitiful job it does representing their interests is reflected in the 20% or so membership. Compared to other PAC-ish health care groups, it's pretty cowardly and really doesn't ever put it's money where it's mouth is. Over the past few years, I've heard their bureaucratic responses to issues like the ACA, the NP push, Medicare cuts, etc, and I truly don't believe they do much for docs in general.

Granted, physicians are a notoriously diverse and non-unified group, but seems like something could/should definitely be better. Maybe the specialty colleges (American Academy or American Osteopathic College of __________) are a better bet???

HOWEVER, trying to block or dissuade a decent student AMA branch on a DO campus doesn't seem right IMO.

 

[DocEspana]

Well the AMA's argument on that is that they are considered the #4 most influential single PAC in terms of money spent in the united states behind the NRA, Big tobacco and AARP (not in that order). Even with 20% (its prob less than that) membership they are hugely influential politically. The suggestion that they are anything short of a massive player in washington is just not that factual. The low membership totals hurts their credibility (as the active people dont represent the majority at times) but doesnt hurt their actual influence. Its something I hear a lot but I just don't see at all.

and good to hear KCOM has an active one. Yea, I figure the groups come in all shapes and sizes, but the NYCOM situation made me curious where it might be squashed out a bit.

I'm at KCOM, and we have a good AMA or Student AMA or what the hell ever chapter at my school. I really don't pay much attention, but it seems as active/same size as SOMA. Again though, I think KCOM was one of the schools you mentioned as having a decent chapter.

In reality though ... I don't know why med students should support the AMA, physicians clearly don't and the pitiful job it does representing their interests is reflected in the 20% or so membership. Compared to other PAC-ish health care groups, it's pretty cowardly and really doesn't ever put it's money where it's mouth is. Over the past few years, I've heard their bureaucratic responses to issues like the ACA, the NP push, Medicare cuts, etc, and I truly don't believe they do much for docs in general.

Granted, physicians are a notoriously diverse and non-unified group, but seems like something could/should definitely be better. Maybe the specialty colleges (American Academy or American Osteopathic College of __________) are a better bet???

HOWEVER, trying to block or dissuade a decent student AMA branch on a DO campus doesn't seem right IMO.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Well the AMA's argument on that is that they are considered the #4 most influential single PAC in terms of money spent in the united states behind the NRA, Big tobacco and AARP (not in that order). Even with 20% (its prob less than that) membership they are hugely influential politically. The suggestion that they are anything short of a massive player in washington is just not that factual. The low membership totals hurts their credibility (as the active people dont represent the majority at times) but doesnt hurt their actual influence. Its something I hear a lot but I just don't see at all.

and good to hear KCOM has an active one. Yea, I figure the groups come in all shapes and sizes, but the NYCOM situation made me curious where it might be squashed out a bit.

It doesn't surprise me that they have a good amount of cash, but I really don't even see where their influence plays out. It seems like they're just a name that politicians pay for and slap behind legislation as a brand ... ie: 'X bill is fully supported by the AMA.' To me, it just doesn't feel like the AARP, for example, who sees something they don't want/doesn't better their demographic and stops it asap. Maybe it's because the AMA represents diversified interests, or maybe I'm just making assumptions, but just doesn't feel like a very influential group to me. Shrug??

 

[Revilla]

KCUMB has an active AMA chapter and sends representatives to both the interim meeting and the annual meeting each year. We also have an active SOMA chapter. No conflict and lots of crossover in membership.

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

At LECOM (Seton Hill, but the rule comes from the Castle in Erie), we are not allowed to form a chapter of any organization that is not specifically D.O: no AMA, no ACP, no AMSA, etc. Many of us are student members of these organization, we just can't form a chapter at the school, hold any events, form a club, etc.

 

[DocEspana]

At LECOM (Seton Hill, but the rule comes from the Castle in Erie), we are not allowed to form a chapter of any organization that is not specifically D.O: no AMA, no ACP, no AMSA, etc. Many of us are student members of these organization, we just can't form a chapter at the school, hold any events, form a club, etc.

well that stinks. Good that you can be members but stinks that you cant take advantage of all the money you could get.

 

[waitwhat]

We have the AMA at TouroCOM-NY. To me, it seems to be a bit more active than SOMA. It's pretty close though. I think they do joint events a good amount of time.

 

[DocEspana]

We have the AMA at TouroCOM-NY. To me, it seems to be a bit more active than SOMA. It's pretty close though. I think they do joint events a good amount of time.

hahaha yes i know. I'm on the leadership of it. Thanks though

 

[DocArmy]

I thought they did, but TCOM does not have a Student AMA. Just the SOMA and American Medical Student Association. Unless AMSA = S AMA, then nothing here in Texas.

Weird.

 

[Revilla]

I thought they did, but TCOM does not have a Student AMA. Just the SOMA and American Medical Student Association. Unless AMSA = S AMA, then nothing here in Texas.

Weird.

TCOM has an AMA chapter because they send reps to the national meetings.

 

[DocEspana]

TCOM has an AMA chapter because they send reps to the national meetings.

yea, just checked their website. they definitely had an AMA and TMA (texas medical association) group and membership as of 2008. I cant find anywhere if they do still have membership, but to be honest, I cant access the TMA database and the AMA last lists them as 2008. Which means nothing cause you need to *do* something to be searchable the way im searching, so you can go years between popping back up on the server the way im searching it.

I'm only even checking this out because the two people disagreed so im curious if maybe (small chance, but maybe) it folded in the last 2.5 years since the class of 2008 graduated? Or it could just be that the first commenter didn't know he had an AMA. that happens.

btw: AMSA is similar to AMA but technically a wholly different group. It used to be the student branch of the AMA, idk how many years ago, and when the AMA contracted AMSA split off as its own thing (and later the AMA would re-open membership to students and AMSA didnt want back in)

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I thought they did, but TCOM does not have a Student AMA. Just the SOMA and American Medical Student Association. Unless AMSA = S AMA, then nothing here in Texas.

Weird.

Same thing at UMDNJ-SOM...active AMSA and SOMA groups, but I've never heard of an AMA chapter.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

It doesn't surprise me that they have a good amount of cash, but I really don't even see where their influence plays out. It seems like they're just a name that politicians pay for and slap behind legislation as a brand ... ie: 'X bill is fully supported by the AMA.' To me, it just doesn't feel like the AARP, for example, who sees something they don't want/doesn't better their demographic and stops it asap. Maybe it's because the AMA represents diversified interests, or maybe I'm just making assumptions, but just doesn't feel like a very influential group to me. Shrug??

Yeah, remember how such a big deal was made of Obama and the Dems "winning over the doctors" because they got the AMA stamp of approval for Obamacare? I can't even count the number of people I discussed Obamacare with that would say something like "but all you doctors like the bill, the AMA said so!"

 

[scotchtapetest]

The super short version of this topic (without the background information im about to delve into) is: does your school have an AMA chapter and do you feel its diminished or pushed to the side at all since there is SOMA as well?

now here is the background. At TouroCOM the AMA dominates SOMA in size, activities funded, funding, and general visibility at the school. And our SOMA is prob our 3rd most active group at the school, but they just aren't anywhere near as visible and active as the AMA is. I figured that this may not be the case at all the schools, but i figure AMA and SOMA should prob be the 1 and 2 (or vice versa) most active groups in the school.

So I've been going to all the AMA national meetings. For those who didn't know this, the AMA (particularly the student section) is super DO friendly and aggressively markets to DO student to attend because they want our input. And at these meetings the DO turnout is pretty pathetic. I'm prob going to forget some school, but the turnout is pretty much all three Touro's, Kirksville, Northwestern, and Oklahoma as far as my memory serves me.

And that is shocking to me. A little prodding around led to me hearing an anecdote (cant confirm if its correct) that the students are not allowed to have a student AMA at NYCOM. And that other DO schools have very poorly funded AMAs or AMA branches that are not allowed to go to conferences even though SOMA can go to their conferences which are in the same city usually a week before or after the AMA conference.

Can anyone comment on what the state of the AMA chapter at their school is? I know as of right now that NYCOM is actually not considered an AMA member because they have refused to attend any AMA event in so long. (Again, no one can tell me *why* this is the case except in anecdotes. but the loss of membership is factually the case because I've seen the logs that Medical society of state of ny keeps)

I think in an academic setting, students should be able to form whatever organization/group/club they want short of hate groups.

At LECOM (Seton Hill, but the rule comes from the Castle in Erie), we are not allowed to form a chapter of any organization that is not specifically D.O: no AMA, no ACP, no AMSA, etc. Many of us are student members of these organization, we just can't form a chapter at the school, hold any events, form a club, etc.

I know that for some specialties, the osteopathic specialty college is the main sponsor of the organization/club while the corresponding allopathic specialty college concurrently and officially sponsors the osteopathic student chapter at that school. Just because you don't have the allopathic version doesn't mean your osteopathic student club is not sponsored by the allopathic specialty college (if that makes any sense) and yes this is even true at LECOM-Erie. I don't know if this is true for all specialties or not. Check with your club presidents.


At orientation for my class during first year at UNE-COM, Maine Medical Association was ACTIVELY recruiting student members for AMA and they even paid for our memberships. I also know we have AMSA but I don't know if we actually have "AMA" club at our school but there is no restriction if someone wants to start one (to my knowledge).

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yeah, remember how such a big deal was made of Obama and the Dems "winning over the doctors" because they got the AMA stamp of approval for Obamacare? I can't even count the number of people I discussed Obamacare with that would say something like "but all you doctors like the bill, the AMA said so!"

Yeah, that was the first thing someone in my family said to me when I said I wasn't jazzed about it - "uhh, but the AMA supports it???"

 

[DocEspana]

well I bring this all up because the AMA offers (expects?) every single medical school in america to come and represent their students interests on the shaping of national policy. Beyond that, the AMA, in an attempt to not let a school administation limit the chapter's duties will 100% fund the chapter for its club activities and going-ons and some travel expenses if they cannot get local (read as: school) funding.

with all of this, some schools never take advantage of it from all walks of life. UVermont hasn't shown up in the last few years. But an issue was brought up to me that many DO schools simply are not allowed to form the school. I was told (and strongly believe) that NYCOM has a standing policy that they will not allow the AMA to fund a chapter and wont fund it themselves either, and because of that they havent had an ama rep since the 90s, if ever (they showed up at least once in the last 14 years because they used to be on the sheet of 'AMA colleges' 4 years ago). and UNECOM hasn't had any reps in at least 10 years as well. I was talking to the people from Region VII of the AMA (NY, CT, MA, NH, VT, ME, RI) and they had no clue that Maine had a medical school because they've not shown up for so long the AMA has taken them off the attendance sheets. They couldn't tell me what the deal was with UNECOM that led to them not showing up.

i know i said this before, but its so interesting to me to see how this organization si represented in various clubs. I'm a bit biased, but i think that with all the AMA does to try to get every single school involved, I'm inclined to believe anyplace that doesnt have a visible AMA group is facing some sort of administative block against it. Though the state organizations, which function as subsidiaries of the national AMA, definitely should be allowed to recruit regardless because they can really ease the licensure process.

side note: the AMA is actually really influential. I'm realizing this more and more each year. But because so few doctors regularly follow it, and because they end up getting in to so many 'non-medical' issues, and its lots of 'small important stuff' it doesnt get the notice. Honestly though, when is the last time a lobby singlehandedly 'created' law. Its more that we set up goals and get them accomplished here and there as they get put into other laws as add ons. The final result is our agenda and desires are acheived. Its very non-glamorous how it happens.... but the policies do very frequently become law.

 

[DocEspana]

Yeah, that was the first thing someone in my family said to me when I said I wasn't jazzed about it - "uhh, but the AMA supports it???"

the AMA is very bleeding heart liberal. Mind you, i like the changes. But I need to call a spade a spade. It used to be unbelievably conservative, but its on the opposite end now.... though... every doctor will bemoan the money he will lose before he votes for 'greater social justice' anyway.

 

[DuxburyPembroke]

the AMA is very bleeding heart liberal. Mind you, i like the changes. But I need to call a spade a spade. It used to be unbelievably conservative, but its on the opposite end now....

That seems pretty accurate (well, liberal, if not bleeding-heart). In the late 40's and early 50's, when the Association of Internes and Medical Students was lobbying hospitals for higher pay, better libraries, and workers' comp, the AMA decried the group as communists and violent revolutionaries... but in this decade, they endorsed the 80-hour limit.

I know that for some specialties, the osteopathic specialty college is the main sponsor of the organization/club while the corresponding allopathic specialty college concurrently and officially sponsors the osteopathic student chapter at that school. Just because you don’t have the allopathic version doesn’t mean your osteopathic student club is not sponsored by the allopathic specialty college (if that makes any sense) and yes this is even true at LECOM-Erie. I don't know if this is true for all specialties or not. Check with your club presidents.

Yes, we can ask for funding from a group; we just can't be a chapter of the group. We tried to form an AMA-MSS, but were not allowed to (we were told that the organization that represents us is the AOA, not the AMA, and we were sternly cautioned not to bring it up again). Amusingly, we were also told by SOMA that, as a branch campus, we couldn't form a chapter of SOMA either! That changed when they realized that they were missing out on members, I think, because they have changed their minds and one is being organized for next year. The Family Medicine club was told that they couldn't even form as a club if they did not form as a chapter of ACOFP, but then were told that, as a branch campus, they could not form their own chapter of ACOFP and instead had to be a sub-organization of the Erie chapter. However, as Bala656 notes, they can still ask for event sponsorship from groups like PAFP, which are non-partisan. It's sort of taking a long time for some clubs to get off the ground here, and part of the reason is the restrictions on what clubs we can form.

 

[scotchtapetest]

Deleted

 

[dozitgetchahi]

That seems pretty accurate (well, liberal, if not bleeding-heart). In the late 40's and early 50's, when the Association of Internes and Medical Students was lobbying hospitals for higher pay, better libraries, and workers' comp, the AMA decried the group as communists and violent revolutionaries... but in this decade, they endorsed the 80-hour limit.


Yes, we can ask for funding from a group; we just can't be a chapter of the group. We tried to form an AMA-MSS, but were not allowed to (we were told that the organization that represents us is the AOA, not the AMA, and we were sternly cautioned not to bring it up again). Amusingly, we were also told by SOMA that, as a branch campus, we couldn't form a chapter of SOMA either! That changed when they realized that they were missing out on members, I think, because they have changed their minds and one is being organized for next year. The Family Medicine club was told that they couldn't even form as a club if they did not form as a chapter of ACOFP, but then were told that, as a branch campus, they could not form their own chapter of ACOFP and instead had to be a sub-organization of the Erie chapter. However, as Bala656 notes, they can still ask for event sponsorship from groups like PAFP, which are non-partisan. It's sort of taking a long time for some clubs to get off the ground here, and part of the reason is the restrictions on what clubs we can form.

Wow, I didn't know the "branch campus" bit was taken so literally. To me, that would be like saying that UMDNJ-NJMS and UMDNJ-RWJ couldn't form separate chapters because they were "branch campuses" of each other. I understand this situation is a bit different, but it would seem that for all intents and purposes your campus should be considered separate from the other.

 

[JaggerPlate]

the AMA is very bleeding heart liberal.

Super.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

AMSA is worse than the AMA, in my opinion. I regret being a naive premed and shelling out the $75 or whatever it was to join AMSA a couple of years ago.

 

[DocEspana]

AMSA is worse than the AMA, in my opinion. I regret being a naive premed and shelling out the $75 or whatever it was to join AMSA a couple of years ago.

total personal opinion here: AMSA, from an 'large scale' point of view is useless. They give us pens and notepads and not much else. I known they are allowed 2 or 4 non-voting members at the AMA meetings incase they want to express an opinion.

and to Jagger: oh yes. And I am quite liberal, so I like it. But i have to put up with hours of them telling me they are conservative of the old ways (which, honestly they are...) or truly variable on the issues (which inevitably means they will argue for a more conservative stance but want to cover their ass).... but all of that is pointless because when it comes times to vote they tend to be more liberal.

to be fully fair, the student chapter is 100x more liberal. But thats to be expected, people who dont make money are fine with spending it for greater causes. People who do make the money are harder to convince to part with it. But recently the forces (idk... all of them?) have aligned to make the Drs in the AMA vote pretty liberal on issues despite them grumbling about it the whole way.

 

[beachblonde]

We got our AMA chapter at school this past year. I have to say we're lucky in that our admin doesn't decide what groups we have on campus, student government does. I'm not sure it's entirely appropriate for a dean to dictate what groups can be formed on campus-we're not children.

I didn't join the AMA group largely because I'm not a big AMA fan (hey, I don't like the AOA or AMSA all that much either-equal opportunity dislike here). When they strong-arm the AAMC into allowing us DO students to use VSAS I'll consider forking over the $100 or whatever it is. I suppose there's always the argument that we should all join up and change the agenda, but frankly, as a second year student my input isn't worth very much.

And FWIW, I do consider myself a liberal, fairly bleeding-heart and all that.

 

[cbrons]

AMA, AOA, AMSA. Worthless alphabet soup entities that represent the government-medical complex (a branch of the oligarchy). I will never join any of them.

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