Ambitious women, unsupportive men

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thirdunity

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Is it me, or is this a problem that mostly *women* seem to have?

I am going through this with my spouse - I was a flaky artist when I got with him, he can't handle being with me now that I'm "serious" and has tried to sabotage me during finals week and has complained about the amount of time I'm spending on studies, so I'm pretty much having to pack up and leave. Wish I could say those were the *only* problems, anyway.

I bring this up because it seems to be mostly the *guys* who complain about the changes when the women go pre-med, or get into med school.

I remember that when I worked in computers, and worked long hours, the only way I got support from anyone I dated was to date someone in *exactly* the same industry. At least they understood.

Anyone? Is this a problem that women seem to have with men, or is it something that goes on with both sexes?
 
I've experienced the same problem. Had a bf on and off for 7 years who is doing an MD/PhD right now. When I didn't get into a program that was in the same city (my #1 choice) I either had to had to give up my acceptance to another school or give up our relationship. Keep in mind that he was going to be leaving within the next couple of years to do the MD part of his degree and we still would have been apart. I chose to go to school where I was accepted. He decided that he was hasty in his decision to end our relationship, but within a couple of months into the program he was telling me to quit school and move in with him or to give up the relationship...
So, here I am today still going through the program w/out the added stress of having someone constantly telling me to quit school. He kept telling me that if I loved him I would have given up school and been with him- maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's a bunch of bullshi*t. Why do I have to give up my career and he's allowed to pursue an MD/PhD?
I would be very interested in what anyone has to say about that...
Oh yes...one more thing- even though I ended up at a school in a different city we could have ended up in the same city in 2 years. He had an opportunity to apply to a med school in this city and he decided to literally apply to EVERY med school in the state, with the exception of that one city (it was a major city and it was a great med school)....what does that say?
 
My guy (dunno for how much longer) just honestly doesn't "get" what I have to do to get through school, so he has a really hard time accepting when I cannot be w/him 24/7. I end up leaving town and spending most weeks before exams at my parents who leave me to my studies. And it gets worse. As the time goes by I see more and more that he is going to have problems being with a doctor, because being with a "med student" kind of makes him wince ( I know all men aren't like this). Our current prognosis is REAL BAD.

And girlfriend don't get married too fast- I have a friend, a female doc in town. She's in an IM subspecialty. Divorced recently and is paying him alimony for 4 years- even though they had zero kids and he obtained a super-marketable masters during their time together.

I think female docs have to really examine the sense of self-esteem and the "needy" factor of the guys they date, or it can be a recipe for disaster.
 
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I don't think it's necessarily necessary to be in the same industry/profession. We're not. But I chose to stick with a job with is more 9-5 for myself more than anything.

However, when I was doing my MBA I was seriously looking into working on a trading desk in an investment bank. And what I wanted to do involved me moving to another country (either London or NY... we currently live in Italy). The dr fiance was ok with that. I mean, it would've sucked to be so far apart but at least he had enough respect for my career to not "sabotage" me. If he had even tried going down that road I would have left him ASAP.

I think that a lot has to do with the guy's self esteem. If he feels intimidated and needs to feel like he's the breadwinner in order to be a man's man, then that's his problem. You certainly don't need to make it yours as well.
 
DebDynamite said:
My guy (dunno for how much longer) just honestly doesn't "get" what I have to do to get through school, so he has a really hard time accepting when I cannot be w/him 24/7. I end up leaving town and spending most weeks before exams at my parents who leave me to my studies. And it gets worse. As the time goes by I see more and more that he is going to have problems being with a doctor, because being with a "med student" kind of makes him wince ( I know all men aren't like this). Our current prognosis is REAL BAD.

And girlfriend don't get married too fast- I have a friend, a female doc in town. She's in an IM subspecialty. Divorced recently and is paying him alimony for 4 years- even though they had zero kids and he obtained a super-marketable masters during their time together.
I think female docs have to really examine the sense of self-esteem and the "needy" factor of the guys they date, or it can be a recipe for disaster.

2 WORDS FOR YOU LADIES ON THAT POINT: POETIC - JUSTICE
 
tlew12778 said:
I think that a lot has to do with the guy's self esteem. If he feels intimidated and needs to feel like he's the breadwinner in order to be a man's man, then that's his problem. You certainly don't need to make it yours as well.
It seems like this is the case for a lot of men. My ex-f had a problem with me becoming a doctor. He had a PhD in engineering and an MBA of which both he was not using (since he got laid off from his job and decided to help his brother with the family business). Anyway, he really didn't support my decision to go to medical school (well, at least not the one I believed was better for me) and he already planned that we would start a family while in medical school and that I would have to make the necessary changes in order to support this priority in HIS life without even considering that I was nowhere ready to have children. Then, the "breadwinner" attitude came into place in subtleties. He'd mention things like, how I'd have to stop practicing (as a doctor in the future) so we (*ahem*..."I") could raise our kids at home (why can't HE stop working? or how about we both work part-time? or what about day care/babysitters/grandparent help?). It never would have worked out b/c he was already being passive aggressive in our relationship. In a way, even though I was hurt that he gave me an ulimatum similar to emogrrrl's situation, it was definitely for the best and I'm happier because of it. I realize it's because of insecurity that men feel/do these things, but who really wants to be with someone who would rather feel safe than have you happy?

I ramble, but the point is you're not alone. If it continues, talk to him about it and if it doesn't stop, you know what you have to do. I've been so much happier with my decision and have found that there are people out there who ARE supportive.
 
tlew12778 said:
If he feels intimidated and needs to feel like he's the breadwinner in order to be a man's man, then that's his problem.
Far too many medical students assume intimidation where there probably isn't any. Case in point:
snowhite said:
It seems like this is the case for a lot of men. My ex-f had a problem with me becoming a doctor. He had a PhD in engineering and an MBA [...]
Aside from a very small minority of superstars most doctors are molded into memory banks at worst and pattern matching machines at best. Understanding the mathematical models behind mortgage risk analysis, building advanced software systems like AutoCAD or Maya, designing circuit boards for higly parallelized processing, developing new plastics to meet specific requirements, building bridges, and dozens of other fields are potentially far more complex than getting through your average medical school. A PhD in engineering being intimidated by a doctor? Seems like an unlikely occurance.
 
CoffeeMug said:
Aside from a very small minority of superstars most doctors are molded into memory banks at worst and pattern matching machines at best. Understanding the mathematical models behind mortgage risk analysis, building advanced software systems like AutoCAD or Maya, designing circuit boards for higly parallelized processing, developing new plastics to meet specific requirements, building bridges, and dozens of other fields are potentially far more complex than getting through your average medical school. A PhD in engineering being intimidated by a doctor? Seems like an unlikely occurance.

In some cultures, however, medical doctors are simply more "revered" than other professions. Hence, although a PhD may have the tools to be labeled more "intelligent", it may still be the case that s/he is intimidated by the prospect of having to deal with a doctor in a relationship.

Although it is also the case that many doctors (esp. female ones?) seem to assume that a majority of people feel this sort of intimidation when that may not be entirely true...

-Ice
 
Um... yeah. Okay. So, back to 3rdU.'s first post...

My experience is more far-off every day, not just because time is passing but because I too am a 'serious' pre-med now after a long period of being artsy and very much go-with-the-flow in matters of my own career and life. But here's another perspective to offer you, as a way of showing this problem is maybe a little different than (the very real and important) issues surrounding traditional gender roles, career, and relationships. I don't usually get into this, but you're talking about pretty much the same situation I was in.

As recently as... oh, three years ago... I was working a good "day job," puttering around with writing projects, and dating an MSIII. I thought it was awesome that she was focused, ambitious, driven, etc. As we got more serious over about a year, I daydreamed about someday being a stay-at-home dad and freelance editor. It amused me that the "doctor's wife" stereotype could be stretched to fit me. I was pretty much what it would appear y'all would ask for in a non-medical boyfriend.

And as residency interviews were looming, she dumped me.

She essentially said that the same things that made me a great choice in the here and now (supportive, open to change, curious about her stuff, not particularly tied down to my stuff) made me a bad risk over the long run. There were other issues too of course - there always are - but in the end we didn't fail because she was driven and I was unsupportive. We failed because what she said she wanted turned out not to be what she really wanted. To be fair, some of what I said I'd be willing to do turned out to be stuff that would have made me miserable, so it was all to the good.

I just want to suggest that undertaking something as huge as med school, which dominates and changes one's life, is going to affect the relationship. If it's the woman who is in the middle of it, she can probably see and understand what's going on in ways the guy can't, and she can process it all in a way he can't because he's not living it from the same angle. I think you'd find that under the other stuff (the issues about how genders are socially expected to act), guys who are dating non-med student women have a pretty similar experience.
 
Febrifuge said:
She essentially said that the same things that made me a great choice in the here and now (supportive, open to change, curious about her stuff, not particularly tied down to my stuff) made me a bad risk over the long run.
No ****. That's why a male must be a breadwinner - once women get out of the "it's 21st century I can do anything I want to do" age, they come to conclusion that they want a man, not an emasculated stay at home ***** (not that you were planning on becoming that or anything :laugh: ) In fact, if she didn't have the testicular fortitude to dump you and you actually got married, with every check you'd have to prove your worth more and more until the marriage would inevitably end in a divorce.
 
Febrifuge, a lot of what you're describing sounds like what happens when we get together with people while we're still relatively unclear about ourselves and who we are, and when they are in a "growing place". A lot of it sounds like, in your case, what she wanted *at the time* turned out not to be what she wanted *later*.

I think one thing is that new career directions reflect new directions, and deeper changes within us.

Situation with my own partner is that I got together with him as a relatively "unformed" person. We were socially at the same place when we got together - a couple of geeks, misfits, outcasts who only fit in the little geek/misfit/outcast social sphere we were part of. I really thought he and I could do the hippie/geek/bohemian thing the rest of our lives, when we got together; I had no idea how much I would change, and neither did he.

I was deeply unhappy when we got together, and I was just thrilled that somebody came along to love me. I was open to whatever he wanted, because I didn't know what *I* wanted.

Things started to change after I started getting treated for depression, and started finding out that I was a PERSON under the depression. More, I found out that I wasn't even the person I thought I was; as I explored myself in therapy, and got new confidence in school, my old passion for science came back. Suddenly I had interests other than video games, manga, and AD&D. Suddenly I was into physical activity. Suddenly I didn't fit with my old friends of fifteen years - and that meant my husband, too.

When we got together, I didn't have a job. I moved 600 mi. to be with him because after all, I was "open" to everything. I didn't know if I wanted children, I was "open" about a lot of things because I didn't know how important they really were to me. The longer we were together, the more I discovered what my real feelings about things were. I didn't think my Jewish background was an issue since I didn't identify as religious, but when we fought over the Christmas tree thing *every* time, and over how to raise our kids, I realized that it was more important to me than I thought it was.
I realized also that I didn't want children (at least not with him - he's very childlike himself), that I wanted to go back to school and pursue a career. A *professional* career, not just get a bachelor's degree then just get "any old job" which is what he expected. He was figuring that I would finish school in another two or three years, then he could go back to school. Then at some point, we'd start a family.

I "went along" with him about a lot of things when we got together, because I didn't yet know where I stood. He is totally opposed to TV. Now we have a TV (I brought mine with me), but we fought over it, and he'll *never* get cable. He also has an issue with cars, especially the type of car I want to drive (something large and trucklike, that can move stuff). He has issues with any of my more "professional" type of friends. And I discovered that I'm not really into the science fiction fandom world anymore, not the way he is (though I still read s/f, and comics, from time to time). I'm as uncomfortable in his social groups as he is in my Toastmasters meetings.

It would sound really ridiculous when I say that a lot of why I want to leave is... I want cable TV and all the normal things every other boring person wants. I like throwing a ball around in a park, and hiking through canyons with a dog, not just sitting in a basement at 2am playing AD&D. [I am still friends with some of these people - but I usually come to visit them and leave before their gaming starts, or sometimes I bring my math books and sit in the corner working on my math, then visit with them when they take breaks from the gaming.]
And I want to be able to move in a wider variety of social circles. I have hippie bohemian friends too, but it's not the *only* place I fit.

This sounds a lot like two people who got married in their twenties, then split up in their thirties, but believe it or not, we have only been together two years (married one year). A lot has changed in those two years.

I know it sounds like I'm deciding to "trade up", but it makes me wonder, when people "trade up", if there are really deeper issues going on than it appears to other people.
 
CoffeeMug said:
Far too many medical students assume intimidation where there probably isn't any. Case in point:

Aside from a very small minority of superstars most doctors are molded into memory banks at worst and pattern matching machines at best. Understanding the mathematical models behind mortgage risk analysis, building advanced software systems like AutoCAD or Maya, designing circuit boards for higly parallelized processing, developing new plastics to meet specific requirements, building bridges, and dozens of other fields are potentially far more complex than getting through your average medical school. A PhD in engineering being intimidated by a doctor? Seems like an unlikely occurance.

Ok, I accept the fact that one may not be "intimidated", but that doesn't explain the fact (in my case) he wasn't supportive of any of my career oriented goals. His acts, if you say it's probably not from intimidation, what are they then?

Also, intimidation doesn't always have to make sense. Intimidation is insecurity and people are insecure about the slightest irrelevant things. Its the way of falsely perceiving situations. For instance, husbands/wives may be morbidly concerned about their significant other cheating even if there is no indication of that. My model-type friend in high school used to feel like she was the ugliest of all girls. So, when you say that a PhD in engineering being intimidated by a doctor is an unlikely occurrence...that may seem like a ridiculous situation to you, but it is possible if one isn't secure in oneself (which I honestly believe was the case with my ex).
 
Febrifuge said:
She essentially said that the same things that made me a great choice in the here and now (supportive, open to change, curious about her stuff, not particularly tied down to my stuff) made me a bad risk over the long run. There were other issues too of course - there always are - but in the end we didn't fail because she was driven and I was unsupportive. We failed because what she said she wanted turned out not to be what she really wanted. To be fair, some of what I said I'd be willing to do turned out to be stuff that would have made me miserable, so it was all to the good.

I just want to suggest that undertaking something as huge as med school, which dominates and changes one's life, is going to affect the relationship. If it's the woman who is in the middle of it, she can probably see and understand what's going on in ways the guy can't, and she can process it all in a way he can't because he's not living it from the same angle. I think you'd find that under the other stuff (the issues about how genders are socially expected to act), guys who are dating non-med student women have a pretty similar experience.

Febrifuge-it sounds like you both were in different stages in life. I'm glad however that it ended up for the better considering you said that many of the things you were willing to do would have made you miserable. It's funny that no matter how much two people care about each other that there are always complications and details which will make or break a relationship. Also as an aside, I heard somewhere before that most relationships beginning in medical school don't often work.

Anyway, what were her main reasons for wanting to break up (if you don't mind me asking)? Was it just difference of opinions and expectations for the most part?
 
snowhite said:
Ok, I accept the fact that one may not be "intimidated", but that doesn't explain the fact (in my case) he wasn't supportive of any of my career oriented goals. His acts, if you say it's probably not from intimidation, what are they then?
Well, to flip the whole thing over, one could say that you weren't supportive of his family oriented goals. I suppose he could have easily married a doctor but didn't want to marry someone who's just starting to go through the process, which is perfectly understandable. Not wanting to marry someone who'll be away most of the time for the next six years doesn't imply intimidation.
snowhite said:
Also, intimidation doesn't always have to make sense.
That's very true, although it sounds less plausible than my scenario above.
 
ice_23 said:
In some cultures, however, medical doctors are simply more "revered" than other professions.
That's just crap. When you take a sharp turn in your car, drive on a bridge, walk into a sky scraper, get into a regular elevator, fly a plane, use electrical devices, and generally do millions of other things you're entrusting your life into hands of countless designers, architects, engineers, pilots and operators just like you entrust your life to a surgeon when you sign the release form.
 
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Urrgh. No offense meant to anyone in this thread, but I'm reminding myself why I tend not to talk about these sorts of issues on message boards. Too much goes unsaid or implied when conversations happen in turns, and things get all mixed up. Sigh. My bad for starting up.
snowhite said:
Febrifuge-it sounds like you both were in different stages in life. I'm glad however that it ended up for the better considering you said that many of the things you were willing to do would have made you miserable. It's funny that no matter how much two people care about each other that there are always complications and details which will make or break a relationship.
Ehh. It was part that, part not.

Also as an aside, I heard somewhere before that most relationships beginning in medical school don't often work.
I've heard that too. And it's odd to be on the other end of it now, years later, to be the pre-med dating a non-med person. Karma!
Anyway, what were her main reasons for wanting to break up (if you don't mind me asking)? Was it just difference of opinions and expectations for the most part?
Don't really want to delve into it, to be frank, plus I still respect her right to have a point of view. In the end, I think she and I might agree that our best and worst attributes as a couple were our good intentions. Anyway, it's ancient history now, and not really the subject at hand.
 
CoffeeMug said:
That's just crap. When you take a sharp turn in your car, drive on a bridge, walk into a sky scraper, get into a regular elevator, fly a plane, use electrical devices, and generally do millions of other things you're entrusting your life into hands of countless designers, architects, engineers, pilots and operators just like you entrust your life to a surgeon when you sign the release form.

It's really interesting about doctors' prestige in this culture.

For a long time, I didn't think being a doctor was any big deal. Nobody ever told me it was. People told me I should become a scientist. I was brought up to really idealize scientists. I never even admitted I wanted to be a doctor, because my parents thought I was a scientist in the making. Now, if you were a scientist - that was a big deal. Scientists get famous and win Nobel Prizes. Scientists make big changes to the world as we know it. That's how I saw being a scientist vs. being a doctor.

But the thing is, my personality just isn't right for being a laboratory scientist; I like to be around people. All the time. I'm interested in society, culture, and how people think. I like being in the "real world", not a rarified academic environment. And I have a *broad* range of scientific interests. As a kid, I went through phases of being into some bio interest, then being into physics, chemistry, etc.

Then, a few weeks ago, I tell my mom that I'm thinking of becoming a doctor. I'd kept this under my hat because for some reason, all my life, I never thought being a doctor was particularly a big deal.

"WHAT? You want to be a DOCTOR??!" then she goes running up the stairs screaming, "SHE WANTS TO BE A DOCTOR!".

Now, if somebody had only *told* me when I was younger that it was a big deal to be a doctor... I might be one by now, instead of trying to mold myself into a specialized laboratory scientist type or technician type and having it not fit.
 
CoffeeMug said:
I suppose he could have easily married a doctor but didn't want to marry someone who's just starting to go through the process, which is perfectly understandable. Not wanting to marry someone who'll be away most of the time for the next six years doesn't imply intimidation.

I'm worried about this, myself - I'm a non-trad student, I'm 31, and it seems like most people in their 30s/40s want someone who is "already hatched" and is ready to start a family, not someone who is *just starting* a process that *they* already long-since completed. Many people I know in my age group are already settled into their careers, and don't/can't follow someone else's career/school around.
 
DebDynamite said:
LADoc00,

Forget about this thread.

If you look ANYTHING like Brad Pitt, let's move this to the Lounge. If you just think Fight Club is an awesome flick (which BTW I agree it is a great (man) movie), quit teasing us, as this is a "ladies thread".

Would you care for some cheese with your whine? 👍


fight_club_1.jpg
 
CoffeeMug said:
That's just crap. When you take a sharp turn in your car, drive on a bridge, walk into a sky scraper, get into a regular elevator, fly a plane, use electrical devices, and generally do millions of other things you're entrusting your life into hands of countless designers, architects, engineers, pilots and operators just like you entrust your life to a surgeon when you sign the release form.

Sure, but your opinion that it has no factual basis does NOT mean that it is not true in reality for certain cultures. Take east-indians, for example...

-Ice