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AMSA Teaches "LGBT Acceptance: 101" to New York Medical College

DubZteR

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    In case you haven't seen it: http://www.amsa.org/news/pr/05/0126.cfm

    AMSA Teaches "LGBT Acceptance: 101" to New York Medical College

    Reston, VA - The American Medical Student Association (AMSA), the
    nation's largest, independent medical student organization, is outraged
    at the recent action by New York Medical College (NYMC) to ban a student
    group for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) students and has
    organized an on-campus "teach-in" entitled, "LGBT Acceptance: 101," on
    Thursday, January 27, 2005.

    At the start of the academic year, the LGBT student group, previously
    named, Student Support Group, changed its name to the "Gay, Lesbian,
    Bisexual and Transgender People in Medicine." Due to the modification,
    the NYMC administration revoked the charter, taking away funding and
    other benefits. Dr. Ralph O'Connell, NYMC provost and dean states, "?it
    was clear that the organization and its leader would advocate and
    promote activities inconsistent with the values of NYMC."

    O'Connell has not responded to formal meeting requests from AMSA or the
    Gay and Lesbian Medical Association.

    Last week, Dr. Joshua Lipsman, Westchester County Health Commissioner
    and NYMC professor, resigned his faculty status at the college to
    protest the school's decision. Lipsman is invited to address the
    students at Thursday's event.

    "The actions taken by NYMC are inconsistent with the goals of medical
    education. Instead of creating more discrimination, there needs to be
    awareness of the health needs of LGBT patients," says Dr. Brian Palmer,
    AMSA national president. "By disbanding its LGBT student group, NYMC
    harms both its own students and their future patients. Prospective
    students should seriously evaluate the quality of medical education they
    would receive at a school that openly discriminates."

    AMSA consists of many subgroups, including a national committee for LGBT
    people in medicine. The organization's Student Bill of Rights includes
    both the right of students to organize themselves and the right to be
    free from discrimination based on sexual orientation, as well as race,
    age, religion, disability, gender, ethnicity and socioeconomic status.

    "Medical education must provide opportunities that reduce bias and
    enhance tolerance and understanding in order to eliminate health
    disparities," continues Palmer.

    About the American Medical Student Association
    The American Medical Student Association (AMSA), with more than a
    half-century history of medical student activism, is the oldest and
    largest independent association of physicians-in-training in the United
    States. Founded in 1950, AMSA is a student-governed, non-profit
    organization committed to representing the concerns of
    physicians-in-training. With nearly 50,000 members, including medical
    and premedical students, residents and practicing physicians, AMSA is
    committed to improving medical training as well as advancing the
    profession of medicine. AMSA focuses on four strategic priorities,
    including universal healthcare, disparities in medicine, diversity in
    medicine and transforming the culture of medical education. To learn
    more about AMSA, our strategic priorities, or joining the organization,
    please visit us online at http://www.amsa.org/.
     

    Obedeli

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      That is hilarious.

      Do they have ACTUAL "specimens" of display?

      I would love to see the Transgendered Acceptance portion. Do they have Dr. Frankenfurter walk in and do the time warp? :laugh:

      It is only a matter of time before pedophilia is included in "sexual orientation." :idea:
       
      Obedeli said:
      That is hilarious.

      Do they have ACTUAL "specimens" of display?

      I would love to see the Transgendered Acceptance portion. Do they have Dr. Frankenfurter walk in and do the time warp? :laugh:

      It is only a matter of time before pedophilia is included in "sexual orientation." :idea:
      Ah yes, the call of the wilfully ignorant... :rolleyes:
       
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      Fantasy Sports

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        Obedeli said:
        That is hilarious.

        Do they have ACTUAL "specimens" of display?

        I would love to see the Transgendered Acceptance portion. Do they have Dr. Frankenfurter walk in and do the time warp? :laugh:

        It is only a matter of time before pedophilia is included in "sexual orientation." :idea:

        Wow. And to think we thought all the crazy religious fundamentalists are in the Middle East. :rolleyes:

        While we're at it, why don't we just go back to the pre-20th century system of only allowing white, non-Jewish, males practice medicine. Because a lot of people used similar arguments to prevent non-whites, Jews, and females from practicing for a long time...
         

        Obedeli

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          InfiniteUni said:
          Ah yes, the call of the wilfully ignorant... :rolleyes:

          I am certainly ignorant. I can't design a highway system, engineer a VCR or even explain how a DVD player works. I don't know anything about food processing or launching a space shuttle. I couldn't even begin to tell you how my computer or my even my digital watch works. I only speak English which shows how ignorant I am about languages. When it comes to cell phones, I only know how to use one (maybe, not all the features on it) and how to ruin one (talking in the rain with a cheap Nokia). I am ignorant about half of the US States (never been to many of them). My knowledge on Eastern History is sketchy except reading the Art of War. I know very little about the governments of many nations including some in this hemisphere. I love animals but I don't know their scientific classification identities. I love to read but there is a library of information I haven't read (literally, there is a building not far from where I live that has thousands of books I have never read!). The list goes on and on.

          I have noticed that a common tactic on this forum is to "out smart" another opponent by calling them "ignorant." This type of intellectual snobbery is rampant and many are intimidated about having their intellectual capabilities called into question. Perhaps many people here believe that they have something to prove in this highly educated discussion forum. If you can call someone's intellect into question, it then doesn't matter what they were saying in the first place, you have discredited them. For many of you, that is easier to do than to challenge the ideas expressed. So let the insults fly! Whatever...I am very secure in my intellectual identity and I make no mistake in detailing my deficiencies. I will not participate in a pissing contest of the mind. There are plenty of people smarter than me, but it is not in my nature to defend my intellect to snobs nor do I look to call other's intellect into question. I would rather take that coin out of circulation. I certainly don't believe that everyone who does not agree with me is either stupid or ignorant. There are plenty of highly intelligent people who don't agree with me and who I don't agree with. It doesn't matter, intelligence quotient does not make right.

          My belief is that these PC outreach campaigns are a waste of time and money. They pander only to those who create them. Acronyms are used so indiscriminately that we hardly take a moment to dissect them (Transgender?!?! how did that slip in there?!?!). Dr. Frankenfurter is transgender/sexual (and an alien too! We should include that to make GLBTA).

          Also, "sexual orientation" is a vague term and can arguably include a sexual orientation towards children. It is only a matter of time before some creep defense attorney jumps in on that fact.

          Ahh, whatever, I guess I will go back to ma pick up truck and lisin to som country music.
           

          Obedeli

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            Fantasy Sports said:
            Wow. And to think we thought all the crazy religious fundamentalists are in the Middle East. :rolleyes:

            While we're at it, why don't we just go back to the pre-20th century system of only allowing white, non-Jewish, males practice medicine. Because a lot of people used similar arguments to prevent non-whites, Jews, and females from practicing for a long time...

            Case in point,
            if you disgree with them, discredit them by comparing them to a terrorist.

            BTW One third of my family in Europe (Hungary) were killed in Auschwitz, Dachau and another camp that we are not sure about. This included several toddlers.

            I never said I was against gays practicing medicine NOR do I believe in treating gay or lesbian patients any differently* from other patients, but if you want to tackle that straw man, go ahead.

            *I mean to say in no difference of respect. Obviously, they have issues unique to themselves but I don't need an AMSA sponsered waste of time to teach me that.
             

            typeB-md

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              it seems that the school was fine with the organization until they had to be flamboyant about it. it seems to me they thought they would play with fire and all of the gay students tried to show their independence... they got burned.

              it is fine to be gay but maybe an entire institution doesn't want to be associated as being gay.
               

              Fantasy Sports

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                Obedeli said:
                Case in point,
                if you disgree with them, discredit them by comparing them to a terrorist.

                BTW One third of my family in Europe (Hungary) were killed in Auschwitz, Dachau and another camp that we are not sure about. This included several toddlers.

                I never said I was against gays practicing medicine NOR do I believe in treating gay or lesbian patients any differently* from other patients, but if you want to tackle that straw man, go ahead.

                *I mean to say in no difference of respect. Obviously, they have issues unique to themselves but I don't need an AMSA sponsered waste of time to teach me that.

                So you're Jewish? You should know that we have been persecuted for centuries, and you think we would have a LITTLE respect for other people getting persecuted. All theyre asking is for a VOICE. Does this at all sound familiar to you, because it does to me?

                I am honestly hurt to see another of my people blatently disregard our past and pass on hate that was directed towards us to others.

                Lest we forget, Jews weren't even allowed to practice in the same hospitals in the US for so long. So I would hope you would be a little more sympathetic to those considered "different" by the mainstream, as so many have.

                Its quite sad to see so much hate coming from someone whose people have experienced it for so long...

                And in a way, I can understand how people in an environment that breeds hate and poverty in autocratic societies without free government can act the way they do. What I cant understand is how someone who is a part of a people that have experienced so much hate can say these things considered the relatively free society we live in today...
                 

                Obedeli

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                  Fantasy Sports said:
                  So you're Jewish? You should know that we have been persecuted for centuries, and you think we would have a LITTLE respect for other people getting persecuted. All theyre asking is for a VOICE. Does this at all sound familiar to you, because it does to me?

                  I am honestly hurt to see another of my people blatently disregard our past and pass on hate that was directed towards us to others.

                  Lest we forget, Jews weren't even allowed to practice in the same hospitals in the US for so long. So I would hope you would be a little more sympathetic to those considered "different" by the mainstream, as so many have.

                  Its quite sad to see so much hate coming from someone whose people have experienced it for so long...

                  And in a way, I can understand how people in an environment that breeds hate and poverty in autocratic societies without free government can act the way they do. What I cant understand is how someone who is a part of a people that have experienced so much hate can say these things considered the relatively free society we live in today...

                  You see, this is the problem to begin with. If someone disagrees with GLBT training, then it is hate. You go from one extreme to the other. If they don't think like you, then that's it, its hate. Sorry pal, I don't agree with you and I won't honor your narrow-minded viewpoint any longer. Just because I don't agree with all this PC crap does mean it is "hate" believe me, I know what real hate is and what it does. I will not be backed up into this corner by a PC thug.

                  THIS IS THE WHOLE PROBLEM WITH LIBERALS IN GENERAL. Suuuuuure they tolerate others, others that see the world they do. They do NOT tolerate those who don't agree with them. If you disagree with them, you are instantly branded a "racist" "Hate filled" "whateverphobe" etc. You are not allowed to disagree with a liberal or you will face the worst weapons of character assaination possible (which is what you did pal).
                  There is no holding back to their venom and there will be no actual discussion of the topics at hand.

                  Fact is sexual orientation is a vague term and can and probably will include orientation towards a child. It is only a matter of time before a company with sexual orientation wording in their hiring clauses will be sued by a pedophile who feels that his firing was against the contract respecting "sexual orientation." The crazy part, they will probably win, especially if the 9th circuit court is involved.
                   

                  VPDcurt

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                    This whole AMSA event has symbolism, but no substance. Now I am really excited for my upcoming interview at NYMC - I'd rather attend a school that has the balls to stand up for what they believe as opposed to a school that walks around on egg shells in every decision they make.
                     

                    ice_23

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                      VPDcurt said:
                      This whole AMSA event has symbolism, but no substance. Now I am really excited for my upcoming interview at NYMC - I'd rather attend a school that has the balls to stand up for what they believe as opposed to a school that walks around on egg shells in every decision they make.

                      Exactly what is "it" that NYMC believes in?

                      -Ice
                       

                      kinetic

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                        Wow, since NOT having a group apparently constitutes discrimination, apparently medical schools across the nation are discriminating against pretty much everyone, including straight people, conservatives, whites, males in medicine ...when is AMSA going to make things right? I know all of you enlightened thinkers will support this.
                         
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                          scootad. said:
                          but the difference is medical schools are not prohibiting people from starting a straight white male conservative group.


                          hell would freeze over before my medical school senate would ever approve funding for a straight white male conservative group.

                          I'm just playing devil's advocate here...I don't agree with NYMC's actions, but let's face it. funding and approval for student groups does tend to fall to the socially liberal side. The only group at my school that isn't (besides specialty interest groups) is the Christian Medical and Dental Association.
                           

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                            scootad. said:
                            but the difference is medical schools are not prohibiting people from starting a straight white male conservative group.

                            Yeah right. I suppose my school would have no problem with me starting the WCMMP (White Conservative Males of the Medical Profession). If it were to happen, the backlash of a school supporting a media-labeled "white supremacist" organization would make national news.

                            The truth is, schools have rules regarding the organizations (student or otherwise) that are associated with them. And I don't think it is really a matter of what the organization stands for, but rather the manner in which the organization conducts itself while holding the "blessing" of the school. If the LGBT is acting inappropriately according to the organizational bylaws of the school, then the school has every right to nix it.
                             

                            kinetic

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                              Well, then, I guess you all should re-evaluate "the quality of medical education [you] receive at a school that openly discriminates." I also would like to, at this time, express concern for the well-being of your future patients at the hands of your openly bigoted selves.
                               

                              ice_23

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                                pillowhead said:
                                hell would freeze over before my medical school senate would ever approve funding for a straight white male conservative group.

                                I'm just playing devil's advocate here...I don't agree with NYMC's actions, but let's face it. funding and approval for student groups does tend to fall to the socially liberal side. The only group at my school that isn't (besides specialty interest groups) is the Christian Medical and Dental Association.

                                Do you guys really think white male conservatives are as marginalized by society as lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgenders? It's not social liberal BS to think that people who fall under the "LGBT" category probably require a little more support via a group than white male conservatives, wouldn't you think?

                                -Ice

                                P.S. I'm not arguing either way on this issue. I just think it's weird that white males are really that upset about not having student groups on campus. I'd say the same for a "white male liberal" group as well.
                                 

                                kinetic

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                                  If they "need support," then they are free to do so without the funding of the medical school or as an officially endorsed organization.

                                  If not having the club constitutes "discrimination," as stated directly in the article, then that philosophy carries universally. If one group can make a club based on their sexual orientation, race, or gender, then there is no reason why other groups cannot as well. If not, THAT'S discrimination.

                                  Why are people identifying themselves as "GLBT" or "black" or "a woman"? If you liberals practiced what you preached, you'd just identify yourselves as "medical students." Instead, you whine about discrimination and then proceed to DISCRIMINATE yourselves based on characteristics that include race, gender, and sexual preference -- "I'm not a medical student ...I'm a GAY medical student."
                                   

                                  VPDcurt

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                                    kinetic said:
                                    Why are people identifying themselves as "GLBT" or "black" or "a woman"? If you liberals practiced what you preached, you'd just identify yourselves as "medical students." Instead, you whine about discrimination and then proceed to DISCRIMINATE yourselves based on characteristics that include race, gender, and sexual preference -- "I'm not a medical student ...I'm a GAY medical student."

                                    Exactly!!! This has been one of my points all along. Such people separate themselves from society in an effort to show everyone that they are no different from anyone else - it makes no sense. If sexual orientation, race, or gender has no effect on whether or not you will make a good physician, why do you have to make it an issue all the time? Minority groups are always victimizing themselves in an effort to gain from their status.
                                     

                                    pillowhead

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                                      ice_23 said:
                                      Do you guys really think white male conservatives are as marginalized by society as lesbians, gays, bisexuals, and transgenders? It's not social liberal BS to think that people who fall under the "LGBT" category probably require a little more support via a group than white male conservatives, wouldn't you think?

                                      -Ice

                                      P.S. I'm not arguing either way on this issue. I just think it's weird that white males are really that upset about not having student groups on campus. I'd say the same for a "white male liberal" group as well.

                                      No I don't think white male conservatives are marginalized by society. I never said that. I don't think medical students interested in emergency medicine as marginalized by society either, but our Emergency Medicine Interest Group receives school funds.

                                      I don't think any white males are really upset about not having student groups which is probably good since they'd be laughed at for trying. I'm just trying to point out that a double standard really does exist between funding for student groups. Hey, I'm all for the LGBT groups getting funding and consider myself pretty socially liberal, but you can't deny there's double standards with this stuff.
                                       

                                      Discobolus

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                                        I think the problem here is that Liberals and Conservatives have vastly different definitions of "tolerance".

                                        Liberal Tolerance: Embrace everyone (except the intolerant of course) with opens arms and approve of everything they do. There is no right and there is no wrong, and all actions and viewpoints are equally valid. No one is accountable for what they do or the opinions they hold because it is not their fault. Man has no free will, he is only the outcome of his life experiences.

                                        Conservative Tolerance: There are right and wrong actions, actions have consequences. Actions that lead to negative consequences are not looked upon in a positive way. You have the right to do something stupid and I will not use violent means to stop you, but I will not support you.
                                         
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                                        ice_23

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                                          First, NYMC revoked the charter because the student group had the words "Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender" in it? Because these words are against what the college "stands for"? I am still unclear as to what NYMC stands for.

                                          Secondly, I do believe that white people should be able to have groups if they choose. However, there is a reason why they do not. One is that they'd feel ostracized doing so. The other reason, which most of said individuals would care not to point out, is that they are not nearly in need of the "support" that a Lesbian, gay, transgender, bisexual, black, or even woman would probably need. Understandably there are many marginalized white people in the world. But, at least in my opinion, it is not to the degree of marginalization that many of the people I listed above have had to face.

                                          And what's wrong with identifying with race/sex/sexual orientation? This is a support group, not one that is screaming "discrimination against gays!" and going out and starting rallies. It seems as if conservatives identify anything that is remotely exclusive on the grounds of race or sexual orientation as a revolutionary group trying to rewrite the constitution. For all you know, it could just be a way for LGBT people to air out their thoughts to similar individuals who might be going through similar things.

                                          -Ice
                                           

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                                            ice_23 said:
                                            I am still unclear as to what NYMC stands for.

                                            Why don't you ask them? More importantly, why didn't AMSA elaborate, since as it's worded right now, the article would imply to any reasonable person that NYMC apparently stands for hating gays. Agenda, anyone?

                                            ice_23 said:
                                            Secondly, I do believe that white people should be able to have groups if they choose. However, there is a reason why they do not. One is that they'd feel ostracized doing so.

                                            If that's true (and it is), then shouldn't we ask WHY people would ostracize others for simply being in a group? I dare say we would if we discovered that people were doing this to gays or blacks or women or liberals. And we'd probably mandate some sensitivity classes and demand that people take a good, hard look at their inner prejudices.

                                            ice_23 said:
                                            But, at least in my opinion, it is not to the degree of marginalization that many of the people I listed above have had to face.

                                            Given that they're administered preferential treatment for admissions, it's pretty ludicrous that they're complaining about marginalization.

                                            ice_23 said:
                                            And what's wrong with identifying with race/sex/sexual orientation?

                                            Well, since the liberal mantra is that we be blind to those things, why is it also the liberal mantra to shove those things into your face with a poker? If liberals REALLY want a color-blind world, for example, then why are they the ones who DEMAND that we treat people differently based on race? Why are they the ones who say, "I'm not an American ...I'm a female, Ivory-Coast, part-Ethiopian, trans-sexual American!"

                                            Finally, if they want to voice their opinions amongst themselves, have fun. I fail to see why the medical school needs to fund said discussions.
                                             

                                            oudoc08

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                                              Quite simply, liberals support someones right to free speech only when it's in support of what they want to hear. Otherwise it's intolerant hate speech that should be suppressed.

                                              What hypocrisy.

                                              Liberal: "A person who relishes the bigness of their smallness"
                                               

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                                                kinetic said:
                                                Why don't you ask them? More importantly, why didn't AMSA elaborate, since as it's worded right now, the article would imply to any reasonable person that NYMC apparently stands for hating gays. Agenda, anyone?

                                                Because VPD seemed happy that NYMC stood up for "what they believed in." Sure AMSA has an agenda. But so do conservatives on this board.


                                                If that's true (and it is), then shouldn't we ask WHY people would ostracize others for simply being in a group? I dare say we would if we discovered that people were doing this to gays or blacks or women or liberals. And we'd probably mandate some sensitivity classes and demand that people take a good, hard look at their inner prejudices.

                                                I agree. One should not ostracize others. But is your point to stop the sensitivity classes for blacks and women (permitting the ostracism to continue) or to allow for white groups? Let white people have their groups, if they're so inclined.


                                                Given that they're administered preferential treatment for admissions, it's pretty ludicrous that they're complaining about marginalization.

                                                Gays, lesbians, transgender, and bisexuals are administered preferential treatment for admissions?


                                                Well, since the liberal mantra is that we be blind to those things, why is it also the liberal mantra to shove those things into your face with a poker? If liberals REALLY want a color-blind world, for example, then why are they the ones who DEMAND that we treat people differently based on race? Why are they the ones who say, "I'm not an American ...I'm a female, Ivory-Coast, part-Ethiopian, trans-sexual American!"

                                                I believe it's usually about respecting race, not about being "blind" to it. And shove things in your face with a poker?? Good lord, it's a support group, not a military offensive. It is possible that the white male could have waltzed through 4+ years of the NYMC without having to deal with the LGBT group.

                                                Finally, if they want to voice their opinions amongst themselves, have fun. I fail to see why the medical school needs to fund said discussions.

                                                They should for the same reason why people who wish to start a hiking interest group or a book interest group (groups at my medical school) wish to start them; it allows individuals to share similar interests. I'm willing to admit that it must be hard to live as a gay/transgender person, and allowing them to air out their thoughts is fine with me. Besides, usually these sorts of things are voted on by the student governing board for funding. If it was funded by the students, and all students are allowed to attend, what's up with NYMC jumping in to stop them?

                                                -Ice
                                                 

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                                                  oudoc08 said:
                                                  Quite simply, liberals support someones right to free speech only when it's in support of what they want to hear. Otherwise it's intolerant hate speech that should be suppressed.

                                                  What hypocrisy.

                                                  Liberal: "A person who relishes the bigness of their smallness"

                                                  LOL, and conservatives love to generalize about entire groups.

                                                  -Ice
                                                   

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                                                    ice_23 said:
                                                    Because VPD seemed happy that NYMC stood up for "what they believed in." Sure AMSA has an agenda. But so do conservatives on this board.

                                                    Yes, and we're quite open about it, unlike AMSA, which postures as a representative for medical students when it's really an instrument to forward liberalism in medicine.

                                                    ice_23 said:
                                                    But is your point to stop the sensitivity classes for blacks and women (permitting the ostracism to continue) or to allow for white groups? Let white people have their groups, if they're so inclined.

                                                    Both.

                                                    ice_23 said:
                                                    Gays, lesbians, transgender, and bisexuals are administered preferential treatment for admissions?

                                                    You know, I'm not sure, so I can't say. But I know for a fact that women and minorities are.

                                                    ice_23 said:
                                                    I believe it's usually about respecting race, not about being "blind" to it.

                                                    "Respecting race"? Oh, so a black person IS different from a white person or a brown person or a yellow person? Interesting. Tell me more.

                                                    ice_23 said:
                                                    They should for the same reason why people who wish to start a hiking interest group or a book interest group (groups at my medical school) wish to start them; it allows individuals to share similar interests.

                                                    That's why the medical school should FUND their group? :laugh:

                                                    ice_23 said:
                                                    If it was funded by the students, and all students are allowed to attend, what's up with NYMC jumping in to stop them?

                                                    Oh, gee, I can attend their meetings and listen to things that I don't agree with and all I have to do is give them my money! How thoughtful and generous. Well, let's start up an ANTI-GAY group and fund it and if people want to attend, they can do that, too.
                                                     

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                                                      kinetic said:
                                                      Yes, and we're quite open about it, unlike AMSA, which postures as a representative for medical students when it's really an instrument to forward liberalism in medicine.

                                                      Not all of you are.


                                                      You know, I'm not sure, so I can't say. But I know for a fact that women and minorities are.

                                                      But gays aren't, as far as I know.


                                                      "Respecting race"? Oh, so a black person IS different from a white person or a brown person or a yellow person? Interesting. Tell me more.

                                                      LOL, many people do in fact derive a lot of their culture from race. Even white people.


                                                      That's why the medical school should FUND their group? :laugh:

                                                      Oh, gee, I can attend their meetings and listen to things that I don't agree with and all I have to do is give them my money! How thoughtful and generous. Well, let's start up an ANTI-GAY group and fund it and if people want to attend, they can do that, too.

                                                      I believe you know the difference between a group that is ANTI-GAY as being different from a support group for gays that anyone can attend. And if the student body votes for it and funds it, tell me, what's wrong with that?

                                                      And I still don't see the motivation for NYMC shutting the group down.

                                                      -Ice
                                                       
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                                                        ice_23 said:
                                                        LOL, many people do in fact derive a lot of their culture from race. Even white people.

                                                        So which is it? Are we different because of our race or the same despite it? Liberals want it both ways. "Respect my diversity" and "embrace our homogeneity." :laugh: By the way, the only time we as a society talk about white culture is when we're denigrating it, which is apparently quite acceptable.

                                                        ice_23 said:
                                                        I believe you know the difference between a group that is ANTI-GAY as being different from a support group for gays that anyone can attend. And if the student body votes for it and funds it, tell me, what's wrong with that?

                                                        No, I actually don't. What, now we have to allow speech that you find acceptable and silence that which you find unacceptable? Is that how this works? Why should I have to fund a group that I don't agree with? And if I do, why shouldn't you?
                                                         

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                                                          kinetic said:
                                                          So which is it? Are we different because of our race or the same despite it? Liberals want it both ways. "Respect my diversity" and "embrace our homogeneity." :laugh: By the way, the only time we as a society talk about white culture is when we're denigrating it, which is apparently quite acceptable.

                                                          Is it that hard for you to see that a person can be similar in one aspect to another person but different in another aspect? Nowhere is anyone saying that any race is higher up on the totem pole than another; races can be considered equal but still different. It's unfortunate that white culture is often denigrated; that's not right either.


                                                          No, I actually don't. What, now we have to allow speech that you find acceptable and silence that which you find unacceptable? Is that how this works? Why should I have to fund a group that I don't agree with? And if I do, why shouldn't you?

                                                          First, I do believe that people who are gay/transgender and wish to share their experiences with one another is different than a group that is predicated on being ANTI-gay/transgender. For one, I highly doubt that people who are anti-gay have had to face the same sort of marginalization that gays/transgendered individuals have to face. If you disagree on that, then we must agree to disagree on this matter.

                                                          Second, if you don't wish to fund a group that you don't agree with, you can vote against it and, if they have some sort of refund plan (which they had at my undergraduate university), get your refund. I still don't see why NYMC needs to shut the group down for a name change, though, and that issue no one seems to want to address.

                                                          -Ice
                                                           

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                                                            ice_23 said:
                                                            Is it that hard for you to see that a person can be similar in one aspect to another person but different in another aspect?

                                                            Yes, it is. Either we're all the same and I'll treat everyone the same or we're all different and I'll treat everyone differently.

                                                            ice_23 said:
                                                            First, I do believe that people who are gay/transgender and wish to share their experiences with one another is different than a group that is predicated on being ANTI-gay/transgender.

                                                            So? I don't agree with the gay lifestyle; therefore, a group that promotes it either directly or indirectly is offensive to me, but you're asking me to fund them. I fail to see the difference.

                                                            ice_23 said:
                                                            Second, if you don't wish to fund a group that you don't agree with, you can vote against it ...

                                                            Apparently, they all voted against it. :laugh:
                                                             

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                                                              I have no problem with interest groups funded by a university. For example, a book club or hiking group is fine. Students interested in Emergency Medicine group. Fine. But the fact remains, when you include religious groups or LGBT type groups, they don't keep to themselves. They try to outreach and connect with people who would have obviously went to their meetings if they wanted to. I could care less about what sexual orientation you are people.. I watch Real World on MTV and while my roommates are a lil disturbed by the two gay guys and their man on man action, I don't mind... at all, what I hate is when people at my Undergrad institution pass out LGBT flyers to accept them.. and when they do marches on a campus where most people don't care what you're marching for..

                                                              I guess it's my personal dislike of activists, extremists, fanatics, etc of any sort except sport fanatics. The other people it's just like.. chill out..
                                                               

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                                                                pillowhead said:
                                                                hell would freeze over before my medical school senate would ever approve funding for a straight white male conservative group.

                                                                I'm just playing devil's advocate here...I don't agree with NYMC's actions, but let's face it. funding and approval for student groups does tend to fall to the socially liberal side. The only group at my school that isn't (besides specialty interest groups) is the Christian Medical and Dental Association.

                                                                What is a socially liberal group, besides a political club? People aren't political beliefs, they're people. What I think you meant is that funding goes to groups that represent a specific culture, religion, or minority group, and people wonder why a majority group wouldn't be funded. Well, think about it this way: white male conservative people are basically living in their own club, all the time. You are the majority and you are the most powerful people in the country. When you read the papers, you see people just like you in the most powerful positions in the country. The majority of leaders in all industries are people just like you. You have role models aplenty and inspiration galore. You are generally not discriminated against, because you are "normal". You are the prototype of what medicine has stood for since its inception, with only a recent shift towards including minorities and women.

                                                                So now I ask you: why do you need a club?
                                                                To promote the advancement of white men in medicine? I think that's already pretty much a reality.
                                                                To discuss issues unique to white male doctors and medical students? What are those?
                                                                To promote equal treatment of white males? I haven't ever heard of discrimination towards this group.

                                                                So tell me: why?
                                                                 

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                                                                  I hate to inject facts into this "discussion", but it took me about five minutes to find this on their website.

                                                                  www.nymc.edu

                                                                  Mission

                                                                  Advancing Your Health through Medicine, Science and Education. New York Medical College, a health sciences university in the Catholic tradition, exists to advance your health. We educate physicians, scientists and healthcare professionals. We conduct research and provide service. We have one goal: your well-being.

                                                                  Seems to me that a group calling itself "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered" would go against the Catholic tradition of this school.
                                                                   

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                                                                    ramblin_med said:
                                                                    I hate to inject facts into this "discussion", but it took me about five minutes to find this on their website.

                                                                    www.nymc.edu

                                                                    Mission

                                                                    Advancing Your Health through Medicine, Science and Education. New York Medical College, a health sciences university in the Catholic tradition, exists to advance your health. We educate physicians, scientists and healthcare professionals. We conduct research and provide service. We have one goal: your well-being.

                                                                    Seems to me that a group calling itself "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered" would go against the Catholic tradition of this school.

                                                                    I wonder if professors get demoted if they talk about abortion or stem cells?
                                                                     

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                                                                      Rapid Decomposition said:
                                                                      I wonder if professors get demoted if they talk about abortion or stem cells?
                                                                      :eek:


                                                                      that's taking it a little too extreme. NYMC doesn't restrict what we're taught or what teachers can say. We talk about those issues in our science classes and more often in our medical ethics course, and they never push us to believe one way or another. If teachers want to talk about a certain topic, then they say what they want without fear of being demoted. NYMC just didn't want to give this group *funding*, they didn't take away any first amendment rights as the group wasn't forbidden from meeting or talking about gay issues.

                                                                      Actually, as you can see from the OP, there's actually been alot of talk about gay issues going on at our school. We students at NYMC have been bombarded recently with "how to accep LGBT people" type lectures (though that was never a problem for most of us, maybe they should be giving those lectures to the board of directors) by AMSA and other outside parties (sponsered by the NYMC non-funded LGBT people in medicine group). Walking around our halls right now, with all the LGBT lecture signs, you'd think we were the most LCBT friendly school on the planet.

                                                                      Sure has been distracting me a little from my biochem studying though...
                                                                       

                                                                      ice_23

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                                                                        renox9 said:
                                                                        :eek:


                                                                        that's taking it a little too extreme. NYMC doesn't restrict what we're taught or what teachers can say. We talk about those issues in our science classes and more often in our medical ethics course, and they never push us to believe one way or another. If teachers want to talk about a certain topic, then they say what they want without fear of being demoted. NYMC just didn't want to give this group *funding*, they didn't take away any first amendment rights as the group wasn't forbidden from meeting or talking about gay issues.

                                                                        Actually, as you can see from the OP, there's actually been alot of talk about gay issues going on at our school. We students at NYMC have been bombarded recently with "how to accep LGBT people" type lectures (though that was never a problem for most of us, maybe they should be giving those lectures to the board of directors) by AMSA and other outside parties (sponsered by the NYMC non-funded LGBT people in medicine group). Walking around our halls right now, with all the LGBT lecture signs, you'd think we were the most LCBT friendly school on the planet.

                                                                        Sure has been distracting me a little from my biochem studying though...

                                                                        That's the point. Although I'm not sure if AMSA is going about this the right way, I do think that the administration shouldn't be shutting down an organization that was ostensibly supported by a majority of the students. If a majority of the students didn't have a problem with the name change, why should the board of directors?

                                                                        Edit: I am assuming that NYMC has a similar funding process as many other medical schools; that is, the students on some elected "student board" vote if and how much to fund any student group; if I am incorrect in that assumption, let me know.

                                                                        Besides, the title of the group doesn't seem ostentatious or deliberately provacative in anyway. In fact, calling it simply a "student support group" when it focuses primarily on LGBT issues is ambiguous, if anything.

                                                                        -Ice

                                                                        P.S. perhaps this thread should be moved to the "everyone" forum?
                                                                         

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                                                                          ice_23 said:
                                                                          That's the point. Although I'm not sure if AMSA is going about this the right way, I do think that the administration shouldn't be shutting down an organization that was ostensibly supported by a majority of the students. If a majority of the students didn't have a problem with the name change, why should the board of directors?

                                                                          Edit: I am assuming that NYMC has a similar funding process as many other medical schools; that is, the students on some elected "student board" vote if and how much to fund any student group; if I am incorrect in that assumption, let me know.

                                                                          Besides, the title of the group doesn't seem ostentatious or deliberately provacative in anyway. In fact, calling it simply a "student support group" when it focuses primarily on LGBT issues is ambiguous, if anything.

                                                                          -Ice

                                                                          P.S. perhaps this thread should be moved to the "everyone" forum?


                                                                          I'm new to NYMC this year, and have to be honest that I know very very little about how the funding of student groups actually works. I have never heard of a student group that determines the funding though. Maybe other NYMCers on this forum can shed some light, but I'm pretty sure that funding for student groups is determined by the administration.

                                                                          Also, on the name change subject, the first time that I ever heard about that actually being the issue was from outside news sources that were against the decision. I'm skeptical of this name change theory, nobody at NYMC talks about this decision as being based on the changing of the group name. From what I understand, from what I know from discussions at my school, there wasn't a previous group with a less "out" name that got any funding. There were subgroups for LGBT students within our chapter of AMSA, and perhaps that subgroup wanted to become their own entity and get their own funding. Not totally sure, but I've never heard anyone at NYMC talk about this issue as one of changing names, or labels.
                                                                           

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                                                                            stinkycheese said:
                                                                            What is a socially liberal group, besides a political club? People aren't political beliefs, they're people. What I think you meant is that funding goes to groups that represent a specific culture, religion, or minority group, and people wonder why a majority group wouldn't be funded. Well, think about it this way: white male conservative people are basically living in their own club, all the time. You are the majority and you are the most powerful people in the country. When you read the papers, you see people just like you in the most powerful positions in the country. The majority of leaders in all industries are people just like you. You have role models aplenty and inspiration galore. You are generally not discriminated against, because you are "normal". You are the prototype of what medicine has stood for since its inception, with only a recent shift towards including minorities and women.

                                                                            So now I ask you: why do you need a club?
                                                                            To promote the advancement of white men in medicine? I think that's already pretty much a reality.
                                                                            To discuss issues unique to white male doctors and medical students? What are those?
                                                                            To promote equal treatment of white males? I haven't ever heard of discrimination towards this group.

                                                                            So tell me: why?

                                                                            I am not a white Christian male so I cannot tell you why they would need a club. In fact, I am neither Christian nor male nor white, so please stop saying "you this, you that" when you don't even have the slighest clue about who I am. If you would read my posts more carefully, I have never advocated white Christian men getting their own club. If they want one for whatever reasons, that's up to them. My point is that if they wanted one, they couldn't get one. Women now make up the majority in my medical school class. Does that mean that the Women in Surgery interest group and the American Medical Women's Assoication at my school should no longer receive funding because the female students are constantly in their "own club" since medical school is majority female?
                                                                             

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                                                                              renox9 said:
                                                                              :eek:


                                                                              that's taking it a little too extreme. NYMC doesn't restrict what we're taught or what teachers can say. We talk about those issues in our science classes and more often in our medical ethics course, and they never push us to believe one way or another. If teachers want to talk about a certain topic, then they say what they want without fear of being demoted. NYMC just didn't want to give this group *funding*, they didn't take away any first amendment rights as the group wasn't forbidden from meeting or talking about gay issues.

                                                                              Actually, as you can see from the OP, there's actually been alot of talk about gay issues going on at our school. We students at NYMC have been bombarded recently with "how to accep LGBT people" type lectures (though that was never a problem for most of us, maybe they should be giving those lectures to the board of directors) by AMSA and other outside parties (sponsered by the NYMC non-funded LGBT people in medicine group). Walking around our halls right now, with all the LGBT lecture signs, you'd think we were the most LCBT friendly school on the planet.

                                                                              Sure has been distracting me a little from my biochem studying though...

                                                                              No worries, Renox, I was just kidding. Sorry if I offended. I've just always wondered how a medical school that is religiously affiliated deals with issues like this where the church and science/medicine disagree. But I'm kind of shocked at the move to withdraw funding to the group, especially if sexual orientation, religion, or any other demographic is not used as a criterion for admission (unless it is? I applied to NYMC and didn't recall anything like that, because I don't think the college is Catholic per se). I mean, it's fine to uphold "values" if you are a religious institution, even though I hardly feel anti-homosexuality is a value, more like a social evil, but that's me. Regardless of whether one thinks homosexuality is ok or not, I think if you are willing to admit a gay student, you can't withhold the same rights from him/her that are given to any other student.
                                                                               

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                                                                                VPDcurt said:
                                                                                Exactly!!! This has been one of my points all along. Such people separate themselves from society in an effort to show everyone that they are no different from anyone else - it makes no sense. If sexual orientation, race, or gender has no effect on whether or not you will make a good physician, why do you have to make it an issue all the time? Minority groups are always victimizing themselves in an effort to gain from their status.
                                                                                This also makes me wonder, if those femi-nazi type lesbians hate men so much, why do they act like them?
                                                                                 

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                                                                                  ice_23 said:
                                                                                  Edit: I am assuming that NYMC has a similar funding process as many other medical schools; that is, the students on some elected "student board" vote if and how much to fund any student group; if I am incorrect in that assumption, let me know.

                                                                                  Hmm.. that's an interesting point. (Works that way in our school - the student council approves groups and allocates funding). renox9 wasn't sure about funding approval - any other NYMC know how your student group funding is allocated? It would indeed be interesting if the administration quashed a student council-approved group.

                                                                                  kinetic said:
                                                                                  So? I don't agree with the gay lifestyle; therefore, a group that promotes it either directly or indirectly is offensive to me, but you're asking me to fund them. I fail to see the difference.

                                                                                  Wow... this sounds so PC... don't fund any groups that offend anyone. A logical extension of this (which might not be a bad thing) would be that student groups, period, shouldn't be funded through med school student activities fees at all. Who knows what group might offend some student who's indirectly funding the group through his/her activities fees... Personally, I'm auditorily offended by one of our school musical groups which receives funding... :D
                                                                                   

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                                                                                    pillowhead said:
                                                                                    I am not a white Christian male so I cannot tell you why they would need a club. In fact, I am neither Christian nor male nor white, so please stop saying "you this, you that" when you don't even have the slighest clue about who I am. If you would read my posts more carefully, I have never advocated white Christian men getting their own club. If they want one for whatever reasons, that's up to them. My point is that if they wanted one, they couldn't get one. Women now make up the majority in my medical school class. Does that mean that the Women in Surgery interest group and the American Medical Women's Assoication at my school should no longer receive funding because the female students are constantly in their "own club" since medical school is majority female?

                                                                                    I was using a generalized "you", speaking to the group of white males who may hold this opinion. Sorry that wasn't clear to you.

                                                                                    Women are still in a unique position because even though women are starting to outnumber males in terms of the next generation of physicians, it is still true that men make more money, hold more leadership positions, and have different societally-imposed responsibilities regarding balancing work and family. While I wish that women did not have struggles in medicine or issues unique to our sex, I believe that women still do, and are still considered the less powerful sex in medicine. If we were all equal, then no, women's groups wouldn't be necessary: but it's patently obvious that the sexes are not equal at all in the field of medicine.
                                                                                     

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                                                                                      daria said:
                                                                                      Wow... this sounds so PC... don't fund any groups that offend anyone.

                                                                                      It has nothing to do with offending people. I merely ask that those who feel that there's nothing wrong with forcing people to fund groups they don't agree with be consistent. For some reason, it's not a big deal when other people are offended, but when the issue boomerangs back on those same people all of a sudden there are 50 reasons why they shouldn't have to reciprocate. That's pathetic.

                                                                                      daria said:
                                                                                      A logical extension of this (which might not be a bad thing) would be that student groups, period, shouldn't be funded through med school student activities fees at all.

                                                                                      I have no problem with this.
                                                                                       

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                                                                                        stinkycheese said:
                                                                                        If we were all equal, then no, women's groups wouldn't be necessary: but it's patently obvious that the sexes are not equal at all in the field of medicine.

                                                                                        What would constitute "equality"? I'll be willing to bet it's numbers. Which is hilarious, because why is it "equal" and "fair" that x percent of a medical school class (or anything else) be comprised of women or men or whites or blacks or anything?
                                                                                         
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