Anatomy Lab w/ Cadavers:

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Irvin

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Hey Guys, i heard that if you take anatomy lab where cadavers are used it is looked much higher upon. I go to UCI and my school does not offer the use of cadavers in our labs. However, there is a local community college that does offer the full use of cadavers in the lab. Please let me know what you guys think as well as if there is anything you guys know for sure. Thanks. :)

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An university anatomy course without cadavers?
 
Irvin said:
Hey Guys, i heard that if you take anatomy lab where cadavers are used it is looked much higher upon. I go to UCI and my school does not offer the use of cadavers in our labs. However, there is a local community college that does offer the full use of cadavers in the lab. Please let me know what you guys think as well as if there is anything you guys know for sure. Thanks. :)

I'm pretty sure that med schools barely care if you even take anatomy before-hand (my school, in fact, discouraged it for pre-meds) let alone whether or not you had a cadaver. I could be wrong.
 
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Irvin said:
Hey Guys, i heard that if you take anatomy lab where cadavers are used it is looked much higher upon. I go to UCI and my school does not offer the use of cadavers in our labs. However, there is a local community college that does offer the full use of cadavers in the lab. Please let me know what you guys think as well as if there is anything you guys know for sure. Thanks. :)


I go to UCI for med school and the director of the anatomy course believes that it is better for students to NOT have taken anatomy before entering med school.
 
I would 2nd that and say do not take an anatomy course before med school just because you may learn things different and emphasized differently and you might get confused.
 
To the OP (wth all due respect to the previous posters) dont listen to these guys. take the course...with cadavers if you can. After taking anatomy, gross anatomy with cadavers, and being teaching assistant for medical school gross anatomy, the amount of confusion that can arise from profs emphasizing different things is minimal and outweighed by the knowledge and experience you gain. Good luck.
 
towens5 said:
To the OP (wth all due respect to the previous posters) dont listen to these guys. take the course...with cadavers if you can. After taking anatomy, gross anatomy with cadavers, and being teaching assistant for medical school gross anatomy, the amount of confusion that can arise from profs emphasizing different things is minimal and outweighed by the knowledge and experience you gain. Good luck.

Off the top of my head I can't remember any schools recommending that you take anatomy as a pre-med, and I can remember several schools that strongly suggest you don't. In my own med school anatomy class, previous exposure to anatomy and dissection appeared to correlate exactly not-at-all with performance. In my lab group, one of my partners actually had been a lab TA for an undergrad anatomy course, and I, knowing absolutely jack-sh1t about anatomy going into it, smoked him grade-wise. This is anecdotal, sure, but I've heard tons of similar anecdotes. IMO the only class that every pre-med should take is biochemistry, and even that may only be of modest value in medical school. I say all of this knowing it will fall on deaf ears, as the majority of pre-meds would knife their grandma if they thought it might somehow, somehow give them a 0.001% advantage. This is why most pre-meds turn out as sort of cookie-cutter biobots (to steal a phrase from a fellow SDNer), because rather than developing personal interests and taking classes in art or whatever the hell they want to, they spend enormous amounts of time and energy attempting to achieve that mythical Advantage, directing all their efforts, all their mindpower, toward Medical School, despite constant advice from all corners that such efforts are misguided at best and dehumanizing at worst. As an example, towens5, who as far as I can tell hasn't started medical school yet, recently posted asking where he/she can get ahold of instructional videos for Step One. Step One, which is years in his/her future. This is the same mentality that is suggesting you take anatomy as a pre-med, so keep that in mind. I'm not trying to single out towens5, who is probably perfectly pleasant and worth sharing a beer with; rather, this is a mindset that is so prevalent in pre-medical education it's disturbing. That's my rant for the day.
 
I believe a couple of students at my school used to TA anatomy in undergrad....but they TA'd the med-level anatomy. Anatomy was pretty easy for them this first quarter. :)

However, having said that, I agree that is much more important to take a wide assortment of classes so that you know something other than science. There will be plenty of time to learn science in med school.
 
I disagree, I believe human anatomy helped me tons. I had a former anatomy TA in my class and he was extremely knowledgeable, esp in lab. The idea of "learning" anatomy incorrectly seems really stupid to me. Of course med school emphasizes different stuff than undergrad, and EVERY class will be like this. However, I think a human anatomy lab without cadavers is probably not that valuable.
 
!dr_nick! said:
I disagree, I believe human anatomy helped me tons. I had a former anatomy TA in my class and he was extremely knowledgeable, esp in lab. The idea of "learning" anatomy incorrectly seems really stupid to me. Of course med school emphasizes different stuff than undergrad, and EVERY class will be like this. However, I think a human anatomy lab without cadavers is probably not that valuable.

It's not even a matter of whether it "helps" or not (although I STRONGLY suspect that a randomized trial would reveal that pre-medical anatomy classes have no strong relation to anatomy class grade in med school--I, of course, cannot prove this). Let's go ahead and assume it does help... it's really a matter of why in the world would you want to spend so much time taking the same class again?! When I was in engineering school I had to take design courses my senior year. And yet for some reason I didn't try to take them my junior year also, reasoning that this would help me when I took them again senior year. I mean, why stop at anatomy, why don't you just fill your entire pre-med curriculum with physiology, pharmacology, pathology... everything! Then when you go to medical school you can... do it all over again! And you will have nothing to show for your four years of undergrad. Why the hell anybody feels compelled to learn the same material over and over again, when there is so much in this world that is worth learning, is utterly beyond me. Medical school is barely enjoyable enough to do once, let alone twice.
 
Iwy Em Hotep said:
I believe a couple of students at my school used to TA anatomy in undergrad....but they TA'd the med-level anatomy. Anatomy was pretty easy for them this first quarter. :)

What is considered med level anatomy? At my school, the anatomy and physiology course is a lower level course that is not considered a pre-med course. The physiology course is an upper level course that is considered a pre-med course. Is it like this at other schools or do other schools have an upper level anatomy course? I was considering taking an anatomy course if I had time after I completed graduate courses.
 
BSChemE said:
What is considered med level anatomy? At my school, the anatomy and physiology course is a lower level course that is not considered a pre-med course. The physiology course is an upper level course that is considered a pre-med course. Is it like this at other schools or do other schools have an upper level anatomy course? I was considering taking an anatomy course if I had time after I completed graduate courses.
They were undergrads at either Davis or UCI. By med-level anatomy, I mean that they were TAs for the first-year med students.
 
If you want to do it do it. If you think it's a way of getting in...don't. You'll gain valuable exposure to what it's like to dissect cadavers, which is kinda cool, just keep an open mind when going to med school that your prof there knows more about what it pertinent to the field. Everybody thinks differently. If your a biology major, I would hope that it's for a curiousity of the field, if you're an engineering major you're probably very inventive and/or innovative, and that's your passion. Don't do too much to "look good." But by all means if you are curious and have the time and energy, do it.
 
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sacrament said:
Why the hell anybody feels compelled to learn the same material over and over again,
So that one learns it more completely & more throughly. Prior knowledge can also free some time to do things like understand material more deeply, focus on subjects one is struggling with, or sleep.
 
sacrament said:
As an example, towens5, who as far as I can tell hasn't started medical school yet, recently posted asking where he/she can get ahold of instructional videos for Step One. Step One, which is years in his/her future. This is the same mentality that is suggesting you take anatomy as a pre-med, so keep that in mind. I'm not trying to single out towens5, who is probably perfectly pleasant and worth sharing a beer with; rather, this is a mindset that is so prevalent in pre-medical education it's disturbing. That's my rant for the day.


I'm not even sure how to respond to such ignorance. Forgive me.
 
After taking undergraduate anatomy, I felt much more comfortable and less overwhelmed with medical school anatomy. this is just me though. I don;t think you will get dinged by ad coms for taking anatomy unless you do poorly in it. Take it if you are interested in that stuff.
 
I have to give props to Sacrament. :thumbup:
 
Great rant Sacrament. I agree completely. If anatomy fascinates you - take it. If not, leave the pain until med school. My school also prefers that students take biochem or physiology and not anatomy.

Also, nice catch re: an applicant looking for Step 1 materials - that is frightening!
 
sacrament said:
Off the top of my head I can't remember any schools recommending that you take anatomy as a pre-med, and I can remember several schools that strongly suggest you don't. In my own med school anatomy class, previous exposure to anatomy and dissection appeared to correlate exactly not-at-all with performance. In my lab group, one of my partners actually had been a lab TA for an undergrad anatomy course, and I, knowing absolutely jack-sh1t about anatomy going into it, smoked him grade-wise. This is anecdotal, sure, but I've heard tons of similar anecdotes. IMO the only class that every pre-med should take is biochemistry, and even that may only be of modest value in medical school. I say all of this knowing it will fall on deaf ears, as the majority of pre-meds would knife their grandma if they thought it might somehow, somehow give them a 0.001% advantage. This is why most pre-meds turn out as sort of cookie-cutter biobots (to steal a phrase from a fellow SDNer), because rather than developing personal interests and taking classes in art or whatever the hell they want to, they spend enormous amounts of time and energy attempting to achieve that mythical Advantage, directing all their efforts, all their mindpower, toward Medical School, despite constant advice from all corners that such efforts are misguided at best and dehumanizing at worst. As an example, towens5, who as far as I can tell hasn't started medical school yet, recently posted asking where he/she can get ahold of instructional videos for Step One. Step One, which is years in his/her future. This is the same mentality that is suggesting you take anatomy as a pre-med, so keep that in mind. I'm not trying to single out towens5, who is probably perfectly pleasant and worth sharing a beer with; rather, this is a mindset that is so prevalent in pre-medical education it's disturbing. That's my rant for the day.

Eloquent.
 
Irvin said:
Hey Guys, i heard that if you take anatomy lab where cadavers are used it is looked much higher upon.
And do you plan on saying on your personal statement that your school did or did not have cadavers? How would medical schools know (if they cared, which they don't) that your school did not have cadavers in Anatomy? :confused:
 
The most important thing isn't to take anatomy where you think it might make adcoms happy, take it where you will learn the most and make the most of the opportunity. For what it's worth, we had about 15 people in our class of 100 that took an undergrad anatomy course with cadavers and those people were always a step ahead in gross and ended up making most of the highest grades.
 
Sacrament -
I thought anatomy was enjoyable enough to take twice :p
But I do think I understand what you are getting at: Dont try to take every single class thinking that it will somehow get you the magic edge in med school. Classes in undergrad and medschool dont compare in terms of difficulty.
 
Sacrament's rant is premised on the idea that undergrads have some genuine interest that if fulfilled will give them "something to show" for their college days. For most this is only true to a limited extend. Most are just interested in enjoying their youth, sharing friendships, having fun, getting some reasonably broad education, maybe satisfing some intellectual interest, & buiding their career.
I do not believe the notion that the prior learning does not deepen & enrich a subject. Think of all your life experience.
The examples of people who struggle in med school anatomy after a strong undergrad background are flawed by selection bias. Does anyone think they struggle becauses of their background. Non traditional students are more likely to have anatomy & allied health backgrounds. We may have many wonderful qualities but are somewhat less likely to be born academic superstars. I could claim that playing college basketball impedes NBA success. After all player drafted directly out of HS - Koby Byrant, Kevin Garnet, Tracy McGardy - are more successful than nearly all those players who put in four years perfecting their game.
Face it you out there; you probably have no interest in taking art or whatever. You want to drink, watch TV, laugh etc. So your efforts might as well go into learning what I really do believe will help you in Med school.
 
sacrament said:
Off the top of my head I can't remember any schools recommending that you take anatomy as a pre-med, and I can remember several schools that strongly suggest you don't. In my own med school anatomy class, previous exposure to anatomy and dissection appeared to correlate exactly not-at-all with performance. In my lab group, one of my partners actually had been a lab TA for an undergrad anatomy course, and I, knowing absolutely jack-sh1t about anatomy going into it, smoked him grade-wise. This is anecdotal, sure, but I've heard tons of similar anecdotes. IMO the only class that every pre-med should take is biochemistry, and even that may only be of modest value in medical school. I say all of this knowing it will fall on deaf ears, as the majority of pre-meds would knife their grandma if they thought it might somehow, somehow give them a 0.001% advantage. This is why most pre-meds turn out as sort of cookie-cutter biobots (to steal a phrase from a fellow SDNer), because rather than developing personal interests and taking classes in art or whatever the hell they want to, they spend enormous amounts of time and energy attempting to achieve that mythical Advantage, directing all their efforts, all their mindpower, toward Medical School, despite constant advice from all corners that such efforts are misguided at best and dehumanizing at worst. As an example, towens5, who as far as I can tell hasn't started medical school yet, recently posted asking where he/she can get ahold of instructional videos for Step One. Step One, which is years in his/her future. This is the same mentality that is suggesting you take anatomy as a pre-med, so keep that in mind. I'm not trying to single out towens5, who is probably perfectly pleasant and worth sharing a beer with; rather, this is a mindset that is so prevalent in pre-medical education it's disturbing. That's my rant for the day.

Hey sac, you make some good points that I whole-heartedly agree with you on, but you forget one major thing. Some people just want to do these "pre-med" things because they enjoy them. I'm going to take a gross anatomy course next year out of pure interest, not because it might give me some sort of advantage on my application (which it in absolutely no way could). Also, whether or not this helps me in med school is not a concern of mine. If it helps, that's great for me, but if it doesn't, I'm certaintly at no loss, because that was not my intention for taking the course.

By the way, why do you figure that ugrad anatomy wont help on med anatomy? Different material in each course?
 
Irvin said:
Hey Guys, i heard that if you take anatomy lab where cadavers are used it is looked much higher upon. I go to UCI and my school does not offer the use of cadavers in our labs. However, there is a local community college that does offer the full use of cadavers in the lab. Please let me know what you guys think as well as if there is anything you guys know for sure. Thanks. :)

Fellow anteater here, I have read mixed reviews on taking anatomy during your undergrad years. I know UCLA sent out a letter when I completed my application there that it was recommended that undergraduates did not take anatomy.

My take on the situation is, it won't hurt you or help you overall. If you're a biology major, you'll be taking plenty of science related classes and it might be a good idea to take more breadth classes (humanities type courses). But in the end, whatever makes you happy.
 
Vomitonme said:
. . . I know UCLA sent out a letter when I completed my application there that it was recommended that undergraduates did not take anatomy. . .
I have to admit this surprises me. Did they state their rationale?
 
Lindyhopper said:
I have to admit this surprises me. Did they state their rationale?

Why is this surprising you? Now three different people have said this. It's not just BS that we're pulling out of our asses: a lot of med schools recommend you don't take undergrad anatomy. This is not rumor or heresay, this is a fact.
 
Irvin said:
Hey Guys, i heard that if you take anatomy lab where cadavers are used it is looked much higher upon. I go to UCI and my school does not offer the use of cadavers in our labs. However, there is a local community college that does offer the full use of cadavers in the lab. Please let me know what you guys think as well as if there is anything you guys know for sure. Thanks. :)


I took the cadaver-based anatomy class at a local community college last year (I was pre-masters nursing and it was a required course) and I learned a lot from it. In fact, that class, and the professor that I had, were two of many influencing factors in my decision to go pre-med. Keep in mind that what you might learn in a community college level anatomy course is very basic. For example, there are a ridiculous number of muscles in the facial, occular, and oral regions, and we only learned a fraction of them. Do if it interests you and if you have time, but as for impressing med schools or getting a head start for med school anatomy, I'm not sure that's the best way to go. Eventhough I did well in the course, it'll be interesting to see how much anatomy I will retain by time time I'm in med school.

But, if you are set on taking anatomy, I personally think it is uselss to learn anatomy without a cadaver; I'm a visual learner and the experience of discovering layers of muscle and tissue is a whole lot better when you get to peel through them yourself, as opposed to memorizing Netter's anatomy flashcards.

PS.. I did it a Bay Area comm college and I liked it more because I got much more personal attention. I went to UCSD for undergrad and I know what it's like to be a statistic.
 
Lindyhopper said:
I have to admit this surprises me. Did they state their rationale?

I agree. It is okay for students to give their personal opinion, but I would like to know UCLA's reasoning or any other school's reasoning. Will taking the class before hinder you?
 
From the UCLA school of Med website. "Overlapping Subject Matter" is the implied rationale.

Courses overlapping in subject matter (e.g. human anatomy) with those in the school of medicine are not recommended. However, basic or advanced courses in biological science (e.g. cellular physiology) are desirable.
 
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