Anesthesia EMR cost?

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BobLoblaw78

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I have two points to gauge cost of anesthesia EMR from past experience. Both were in the millions but a decade ago and much larger institutions. Does anyone have an idea what an Anesthesia EMR system cost for 8-12 OR hospital or how much they have paid?? Any help would be appreciated!

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I have two points to gauge cost of anesthesia EMR from past experience. Both were in the millions but a decade ago and much larger institutions. Does anyone have an idea what an Anesthesia EMR system cost for 8-12 OR hospital or how much they have paid?? Any help would be appreciated!

No idea but shouldn't the hospital be paying for this?
 
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I have no idea why anyone would spend a dollar on something that you dont have to spend anything on let alone a million.

I guess this is a harbinger of things to come.. robots, automation etc etc....

.
Once we get that automated, and we get my ipad idea rolling.. (which i am working on),... who knows what can happen
 
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The epic anesthesia module is a 6-7 figure upgrade for academic institutions. They sell it as an improvement in billing that “pays for itself.” That’s more a comment on the bad charting of academic folks.

Your group should pay exactly 0% of that cost.
 
Why bother. Pen and paper are much cheaper and just as effective in anesthesia.....
 
The epic anesthesia module is a 6-7 figure upgrade for academic institutions. They sell it as an improvement in billing that “pays for itself.” That’s more a comment on the bad charting of academic folks.

Your group should pay exactly 0% of that cost.

Epic was originally designed and marketed as a system to improve hospital charge collection. It has very little to do with anesthesia charge collection. It just helps them collect better on every vial of drug and every bag of LR and what not.
 
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We won't be paying anything, but I would like to have a good idea of the cost when planning for the future. Thanks for the feedback. I was expecting about 1 million, but sounds like it may not even be that.

We aren't currently switching but I do see it on the horizon for most everyone in the next 10 years and for us in the next 2-4 years. The benefits of switching does help with abstracting/extracting/distracting data. Also help with billing, obtaining old records, penmanship, inventory, etc. Plus, I hope to never see railroad tracks again, when you know that it didn't really go down that way. Pretty much every one I talk to likes the systems and finds that it helps versus pen and paper. I like pen and paper and would continue to do fine with it, but I am too young to retire before pen and paper retire.
 
pen and paper charting for anything but the simplest cases is crazy IMHO
 
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I can’t separate out the cost of the anesthesia modules but the cost of Epic implementation for my 5 hospital system was in the high hundreds of millions but under a billion.
 
We won't be paying anything, but I would like to have a good idea of the cost when planning for the future. Thanks for the feedback. I was expecting about 1 million, but sounds like it may not even be that.

We aren't currently switching but I do see it on the horizon for most everyone in the next 10 years and for us in the next 2-4 years. The benefits of switching does help with abstracting/extracting/distracting data. Also help with billing, obtaining old records, penmanship, inventory, etc. Plus, I hope to never see railroad tracks again, when you know that it didn't really go down that way. Pretty much every one I talk to likes the systems and finds that it helps versus pen and paper. I like pen and paper and would continue to do fine with it, but I am too young to retire before pen and paper retire.
In my public health class, I found that EPIC and other larger systems (Cerner) have a spot on their website where you can contact/fill in info to get a quote based on practice size and other customizations.
 
We have Cerner, and whatever it cost our hospital was too much. It’s the biggest POS “program” on the face of the earth, when it actually works. My Atari 2600 was smoother and more intuitive in 1983 while I was playing Combat and Missile Command. Have heard good things about Epic...
 
Cerner/all scripts compared to epic is like a rotary phone compared to an iPhone x
 
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We currently have Meditech but will be transitioning to Epic in 2020. They are going to call the new system Epicech.
 
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Off topic but i rly like Epic for hospital stuff like notes. but when it comes to anesthesia computer record.. i still prefer what i used in the past (compurecord) over epic but it seems like everywhere is transitioning to Epic. Epic is laggy in my opinion and doesn't have enough hotkeys. it relies on touchscreen/mouse too much which slows things down
 
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pen and paper charting for anything but the simplest cases is crazy IMHO
Why? Is simple and quick ( though admittedly not so accurate ). Especially for off site like cath lab or GI, it can be a royal PITA to wire those systems to merge into an anesthesia record. Pen and paper is also alot easier in quick turnover rooms. What is the benefit of computer. Will it prevent lawsuits? I’m not so sure .....
 
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Why? Is simple and quick ( though admittedly not so accurate ). Especially for off site like cath lab or GI, it can be a royal PITA to wire those systems to merge into an anesthesia record. Pen and paper is also alot easier in quick turnover rooms. What is the benefit of computer. Will it prevent lawsuits? I’m not so sure .....

I hate writing out all the bs. "iv induction mac 3 grade 1 view" etc etc when I could just press a bunch of buttons
 
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Why? Is simple and quick ( though admittedly not so accurate ). Especially for off site like cath lab or GI, it can be a royal PITA to wire those systems to merge into an anesthesia record. Pen and paper is also alot easier in quick turnover rooms. What is the benefit of computer. Will it prevent lawsuits? I’m not so sure .....

the benefit of computer is accuracy and legibility. I get for ear tubes and other 5 minute cases it's just not worth it. And the more complicated the case is, the more time you save with the computer.
 
The Cerner “anesthesia record” is not too horrible, but the “PowerChart” portion, where you put in orders and pre-ops/post-ops/progress notes, looks like something created in the 1980’s. Not user friendly AT ALL. Really amazed that something that poorly thought out was released..
 
Why? Is simple and quick ( though admittedly not so accurate ). Especially for off site like cath lab or GI, it can be a royal PITA to wire those systems to merge into an anesthesia record. Pen and paper is also alot easier in quick turnover rooms. What is the benefit of computer. Will it prevent lawsuits? I’m not so sure .....
Not sure what system you use but our computer charting is much faster then paper charting. It's not even close, especially for the quick turnover rooms. Nothing ruins my day more then walking in to the OR and finding that the computer charting is not working
 
Entering an OR, Cerner takes several minutes to initialize the anesthesia charting. Sign on- takes about 1:30 for the home screen to appear, another minute to access Surginet on our system and then several pages to get to the patient selection, then associating the machine to the patient, then starting the time, then macro addition then executing the macro. And this is all if everything goes perfectly. It simply does not work for rapid turnover rooms due to the amount of time to set up the program for a patient.
 
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Entering an OR, Cerner takes several minutes to initialize the anesthesia charting. Sign on- takes about 1:30 for the home screen to appear, another minute to access Surginet on our system and then several pages to get to the patient selection, then associating the machine to the patient, then starting the time, then macro addition then executing the macro. And this is all if everything goes perfectly. It simply does not work for rapid turnover rooms due to the amount of time to set up the program for a patient.

By the time that finishes, they already did three myringotomies
 
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Not sure what system you use but our computer charting is much faster then paper charting. It's not even close, especially for the quick turnover rooms. Nothing ruins my day more then walking in to the OR and finding that the computer charting is not working
So.... what computer system are you using? Do you have a rough guesstimate or possibly ask the powers that be if they recall how much it cost? Thanks!
 
We have Cerner, and whatever it cost our hospital was too much. It’s the biggest POS “program” on the face of the earth, when it actually works. My Atari 2600 was smoother and more intuitive in 1983 while I was playing Combat and Missile Command. Have heard good things about Epic...
I have used both Cerner and Epic for the OR. IMO, Center was much easier to use. Epic requires a lot more inputting of info. Maybe it was due to the hospital system configuration, IDK. But Cerner is more user friendly.
 
Entering an OR, Cerner takes several minutes to initialize the anesthesia charting. Sign on- takes about 1:30 for the home screen to appear, another minute to access Surginet on our system and then several pages to get to the patient selection, then associating the machine to the patient, then starting the time, then macro addition then executing the macro. And this is all if everything goes perfectly. It simply does not work for rapid turnover rooms due to the amount of time to set up the program for a patient.
Well you don’t have it set up right and aren’t using it correctly. You open it up at the beginning of the day but don’t start your time till you walk in the room. The Macros should already be saved on your screen and you just pick one of the four or five you normally use. Your rooms should already be associated, and that shouldn’t be something you have to input. You should talk to your IT people.
 
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Not sure what system you use but our computer charting is much faster then paper charting. It's not even close, especially for the quick turnover rooms. Nothing ruins my day more then walking in to the OR and finding that the computer charting is not working
For me, the quick turnover rooms is where computer charting slows things down. With paper, in those rooms you can document everything or most things in PACU. But not with a computer.
 
I've had a fair amount of experience using Cerner/Powerchart, Epic, Compurecord, PICIS, and another one I do not remember that looked like Fisher Price designed it.

Your institutions individual configuration matters a lot in regards to dictating your experience with the EMR. I have used the same EMR at two separate institutions and aside from the general look of the GUI they couldn't have been more different. A lot of it comes down to who has control over the initial configuration process. One institution I worked at was part of a four hospital health system where the ambulatory center wielded the most power. Their anesthesia department dictated how the periop EMR was structured in regards to macros and button layout. This resulted in the record being extremely burdensome in the more academic trauma center where I was working. Things like a-lines, central lines, blood administration were buried deeply in menu trees because these were things rarely, if ever, done at the center that dictated how the EMR was configured.

Of all of them, I found Epic the most difficult to use, but it also required the least work to start the record and populated the most information coming into the OR and leaving to go to the PACU. I also did not like the layout of the anesthesia record it exported into the patient's chart, but that may be another configuration issue.

Cerner was the second most difficult. I found that half of my time in the OR was clicking all these cute icons to throw into the chart to document essentially any event that happened in the OR, this was burdensome even when I was comfortable using the system. It also populated the patient's demographics well but not as thoroughly as epic. It produced an easier to read anesthetic record than epic but with many walls of text.

PICIS was probably the lowest quality EMR I used. It requires a lot of clicking and depends extensively on how it is initially configured regarding how much clicking vs. typing is involved. It populated patient demographics fairly thoroughly and transported decently between care settings. Overall though it feels very thrown together and low quality, but it is not too burdensome to use.

CompuRecord was likely my favorite but also required the most work. Our setup populated 0 patient demographics so it was literally like a paper chart on the computer. However, because of this it was extremely customizable and it was easy to chart basically anything you wanted. Of all the records I used, it required the most data entry and typing, but it was an extremely open system so I found it worth the investment. However, in how turnover settings it was very burdensome because of how reliant it was on me entering the demographics. It produced by far the easiest to read anesthesia record into the patient's chart.

The Fisher Price one was by far the easiest I have ever used but also the one I understood the least. It was used in a very high turnover facility with a lot of older attendings, so I think it was designed to be as simple as possible. When you booted up you were basically presented with a patient list, selected the patient, and then there were two buttons: start case and standby. Once you started you were presented with three buttons asking general ETT, general LMA, Mac. I don't think there were ever more than 5 buttons total on the screen. They were very large and cartoonish and would be things like a picture of a syringe for induction, a large pill to document meds etc. It was probably the record I learned the quickest, but to this day I don't think I understand what was happening with it.

I agree that for high turnover, few things can beat paper charting.
 
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We won't be paying anything, but I would like to have a good idea of the cost when planning for the future. Thanks for the feedback. I was expecting about 1 million, but sounds like it may not even be that.

We aren't currently switching but I do see it on the horizon for most everyone in the next 10 years and for us in the next 2-4 years. The benefits of switching does help with abstracting/extracting/distracting data. Also help with billing, obtaining old records, penmanship, inventory, etc. Plus, I hope to never see railroad tracks again, when you know that it didn't really go down that way. Pretty much every one I talk to likes the systems and finds that it helps versus pen and paper. I like pen and paper and would continue to do fine with it, but I am too young to retire before pen and paper retire.
Mr loblaw,
Im gonna lob a law bomb at ya!!
I dont know how legal it is to be extracting data without getting consent and iRB type approval.
Why would you be extracting data? quality improvement? make me bring out a patient who was 97.5 to 97.7..
 
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I've had a fair amount of experience using Cerner/Powerchart, Epic, Compurecord, PICIS, and another one I do not remember that looked like Fisher Price designed it.

Your institutions individual configuration matters a lot in regards to dictating your experience with the EMR. I have used the same EMR at two separate institutions and aside from the general look of the GUI they couldn't have been more different. A lot of it comes down to who has control over the initial configuration process. One institution I worked at was part of a four hospital health system where the ambulatory center wielded the most power. Their anesthesia department dictated how the periop EMR was structured in regards to macros and button layout. This resulted in the record being extremely burdensome in the more academic trauma center where I was working. Things like a-lines, central lines, blood administration were buried deeply in menu trees because these were things rarely, if ever, done at the center that dictated how the EMR was configured.

Of all of them, I found Epic the most difficult to use, but it also required the least work to start the record and populated the most information coming into the OR and leaving to go to the PACU. I also did not like the layout of the anesthesia record it exported into the patient's chart, but that may be another configuration issue.

Cerner was the second most difficult. I found that half of my time in the OR was clicking all these cute icons to throw into the chart to document essentially any event that happened in the OR, this was burdensome even when I was comfortable using the system. It also populated the patient's demographics well but not as thoroughly as epic. It produced an easier to read anesthetic record than epic but with many walls of text.

PICIS was probably the lowest quality EMR I used. It requires a lot of clicking and depends extensively on how it is initially configured regarding how much clicking vs. typing is involved. It populated patient demographics fairly thoroughly and transported decently between care settings. Overall though it feels very thrown together and low quality, but it is not too burdensome to use.

CompuRecord was likely my favorite but also required the most work. Our setup populated 0 patient demographics so it was literally like a paper chart on the computer. However, because of this it was extremely customizable and it was easy to chart basically anything you wanted. Of all the records I used, it required the most data entry and typing, but it was an extremely open system so I found it worth the investment. However, in how turnover settings it was very burdensome because of how reliant it was on me entering the demographics. It produced by far the easiest to read anesthesia record into the patient's chart.

The Fisher Price one was by far the easiest I have ever used but also the one I understood the least. It was used in a very high turnover facility with a lot of older attendings, so I think it was designed to be as simple as possible. When you booted up you were basically presented with a patient list, selected the patient, and then there were two buttons: start case and standby. Once you started you were presented with three buttons asking general ETT, general LMA, Mac. I don't think there were ever more than 5 buttons total on the screen. They were very large and cartoonish and would be things like a picture of a syringe for induction, a large pill to document meds etc. It was probably the record I learned the quickest, but to this day I don't think I understand what was happening with it.

I agree that for high turnover, few things can beat paper charting.

When I used to look at an old anesthesia record on paper irregardless of how sloppy the handwriting was I instantly knew what went down in an instant glance... I look at picis old charrts its 15 pages for a 45 miin operation. you have to spend 20 mins finding out whether they put an lma in or intubated.
 
So.... what computer system are you using? Do you have a rough guesstimate or possibly ask the powers that be if they recall how much it cost? Thanks!

We have Cerner. But it's set up much more smoothly then how @algosdoc 's is. Literally takes less then a minute to to be ready to start the case. ASFAIK Cerner and Epic only sell to hospital systems and not to physicians or private groups. They're the only ones who would drop a few 100 million for the system. I'm sure the cost would be a lot less if your hospital already uses the EMR outside of the OR.

I would recommend to look into the anesthesia EMR for the EMR that your hospital already uses. It will be a much more seamless interface.
 
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Our 14 hospital system has selected to time out the terminal after a short period of no data entry for data security. You cannot associate the machine only once in a day...it is by case. Macros work but they are well beyond the initial signon screen.

Well you don’t have it set up right and aren’t using it correctly. You open it up at the beginning of the day but don’t start your time till you walk in the room. The Macros should already be saved on your screen and you just pick one of the four or five you normally use. Your rooms should already be associated, and that shouldn’t be something you have to input. You should talk to your IT people.
 
When I used to look at an old anesthesia record on paper irregardless of how sloppy the handwriting was I instantly knew what went down in an instant glance... I look at picis old charrts its 15 pages for a 45 miin operation. you have to spend 20 mins finding out whether they put an lma in or intubated.

What when down at an instant glance at a paper record is the most stable case ever. Patients always had train track vitals.
 
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Mr loblaw,
Im gonna lob a law bomb at ya!!
I dont know how legal it is to be extracting data without getting consent and iRB type approval.
Why would you be extracting data? quality improvement? make me bring out a patient who was 97.5 to 97.7..

Lol. I think you misspelled your name..... MR.F!!!!

Extracting/retracting/tractoring data isn't my bag. The legality of it isn't my bag either. I only practice maritime law. I am pretty sure we only use the data for mandated reporting measures and billing. They don't like having to look at a paper record when it could automatically be collected by a computer
 
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